I am thinking about ordering one of these. Both are for advanced players and it looks like they cover the same ground.

Any advice?

I never got around to studying Boutry, but I've been through Bitsch in painful detail. Bitsch is a series of etudes on what John Swallow called notated rubato. If you play these etudes with a metronome, it should sound like you are speeding up and slowing down, even though you are playing to strict time. He assigned these to me because I was severely time challenged. These are hard to get through on your own. I think you need a guiding hand or a lot of motivation to get through them. Once I learned an etude, I could play it, but I think I mainly played it from memory. The real feat was learning to tap my foot in time as I played "notated rubato". I'm not sure the book actually helped my time. The musical ideas are cool, but the rhythmic ideas are annoying and hard to want to play - until you get it, then you're like "wow, look what I can do".

Swallow loved Boutry and Bitsch. I grew to appreciate them.

They're both very good only if you really dissect them, and practice very slowly and methodically, otherwise you're gonna hurt & frustrate yourself. I tend to prefer the Boutry, but again - both are good.

If I remember correctly, when I was a student we were assigned Bitsch, and then Boutry came after. Like others have said, both are worthwhile to work from.

Jim Scott

I really like both books and did the same order in school as Jim (after the two Pichereau books, which are also quite lovely). Like a few others on the thread, I also have a preference for Boutry and really enjoy the themes of the different etudes.

I’m leaning Boutry in part because there’s a nice YT video of someone playing one of the exercises.

I really like both books and believe there is much to learn from both. I learned the Bitsch first, then Boutry…….but that is only because Bitsch was a favorite of my college professor. I agree with Brian J. that both of these books require a certain approach……dissect small portions and be patient with putting an entire etude together.

Interesting that Matt B. mentioned the Pichereau books. I never learned those as a student, so I decided to go through those while stuck at home during the pandemic. I don’t think I will use them with my students. While very good, I found that many of the etudes would suddenly change style, rhythmic content, etc…… in a way that made it difficult to tie the different sections of an etude together. Maybe Pichereau did that on purpose, but I found quite a few of the etudes a bit incohesive. I can see that as being rather tricky for a developing musician.

I have heard many people describe the Bitsch and Boutry etudes as “great books for advancing rhythmic skills.” While I agree that there are plenty of rhythmic challenges, I see both books as being a great blend of rhythm, intervals, articulations, phrasing, etc…. If a student is looking to really focus on rhythmic skills, the Blazhevich Sequences is my recommendation.

[quote="Crazy4Tbone86"]

Interesting that Matt B. mentioned the Pichereau books. I never learned those as a student, so I decided to go through those while stuck at home during the pandemic. I don’t think I will use them with my students. While very good, I found that many of the etudes would suddenly change style, rhythmic content, etc…… in a way that made it difficult to tie the different sections of an etude together. Maybe Pichereau did that on purpose, but I found quite a few of the etudes a bit incohesive. I can see that as being rather tricky for a developing musician.

I have heard many people describe the Bitsch and Boutry etudes as “great books for advancing rhythmic skills.” While I agree that there are plenty of rhythmic challenges, I see both books as being a great blend of rhythm, intervals, articulations, phrasing, etc…. If a student is looking to really focus on rhythmic skills, the Blazhevich Sequences is my recommendation.[/quote]

My enjoyment of them might be Stockholm Syndrome related.....<EMOJI seq="1f602" tseq="1f602">😂</EMOJI>. My teacher used them as sort of a bridge to expand the Rochut style towards the French books- he had a real progression of the Pichereau-Bitsch-Boutry-Bozza. So I think that slightly disnunct nature was maybe meant to help in context, though I kinda agree with you on them just being a bit...weird. But I definitely enjoy Bitsch and Boutry more than the others. Though the Bozza Graphic Studies book is actually pretty nice and much more friendly than the Caprices. It kinda hits a similar style point to the Boutry of trying to codify what people thought might become atonal standards and I'm a sucker for those kinda little historical moments that didn't catch on.

Totally agree on the Blazhevich Sequences. Isn't that the one that Mulchay did the edition of for the new books? I really like that edition

[quote="mbarbier"]<QUOTE author="Crazy4Tbone86" post_id="185715" time="1660051692" user_id="8392">

Interesting that Matt B. mentioned the Pichereau books. I never learned those as a student, so I decided to go through those while stuck at home during the pandemic. I don’t think I will use them with my students. While very good, I found that many of the etudes would suddenly change style, rhythmic content, etc…… in a way that made it difficult to tie the different sections of an etude together. Maybe Pichereau did that on purpose, but I found quite a few of the etudes a bit incohesive. I can see that as being rather tricky for a developing musician.

I have heard many people describe the Bitsch and Boutry etudes as “great books for advancing rhythmic skills.” While I agree that there are plenty of rhythmic challenges, I see both books as being a great blend of rhythm, intervals, articulations, phrasing, etc…. If a student is looking to really focus on rhythmic skills, the Blazhevich Sequences is my recommendation.[/quote]

My enjoyment of them might be Stockholm Syndrome related.....<EMOJI seq="1f602" tseq="1f602">😂</EMOJI>. My teacher used them as sort of a bridge to expand the Rochut style towards the French books- he had a real progression of the Pichereau-Bitsch-Boutry-Bozza. So I think that slightly disnunct nature was maybe meant to help in context, though I kinda agree with you on them just being a bit...weird. But I definitely enjoy Bitsch and Boutry more than the others. Though the Bozza Graphic Studies book is actually pretty nice and much more friendly than the Caprices. It kinda hits a similar style point to the Boutry of trying to codify what people thought might become atonal standards and I'm a sucker for those kinda little historical moments that didn't catch on.

Totally agree on the Blazhevich Sequences. Isn't that the one that Mulchay did the edition of for the new books? I really like that edition
</QUOTE>

I actually enjoy the Pichereau very much! I think there are some very lovely passages in those etudes. Gerard Pichereau, with all of his teaching experience at the Conservatoire de Paris, certainly understood the trombone and how to write for it. It is just those sudden changes of direction within some of the etudes that make them strangely unique. Possibly Jim DeSano liked them because he wanted students to just play what was on the page and learn to shift gears quickly......certainly an invaluable skill!

I still have my old Carl Fischer Edition of the Blazhevich Sequences from about 1980. Even though it was a horrible publication (tons of wrong pitches, awkward page turns, and I had to buy a separate Part 1 and Part 2), they hold some sentimental value because I thought they were fantastic training. The modern edition by East-West Music International is much better and yes, Michael Mulcahy was part of the editing team on that. The East-West Music International edition is what I have my students buy for both the Sequences and the "Clef Studies" by Blazhevich.

[quote="Crazy4Tbone86"]

I actually enjoy the Pichereau very much! I think there are some very lovely passages in those etudes. Gerard Pichereau, with all of his teaching experience at the Conservatoire de Paris, certainly understood the trombone and how to write for it. It is just those sudden changes of direction within some of the etudes that make them strangely unique. Possibly Jim DeSano liked them because he wanted students to just play what was on the page and learn to shift gears quickly......certainly an invaluable skill!

I still have my old Carl Fischer Edition of the Blazhevich Sequences from about 1980. Even though it was a horrible publication (tons of wrong pitches, awkward page turns, and I had to buy a separate Part 1 and Part 2), they hold some sentimental value because I thought they were fantastic training. The modern edition by East-West Music International is much better and yes, Michael Mulcahy was part of the editing team on that. The East-West Music International edition is what I have my students buy for both the Sequences and the "Clef Studies" by Blazhevich.[/quote]

Totally agree- they're super well written and I found that kind of direction change really helpful in getting ready for Bitsch and Boutry. I still quite enjoy playing/teaching the recreative studies. I recently came across his legato book, which I've not used a lot, but it's pretty nice too.

Those East West ones are nice- though I kinda agree on the old editions! The low range book Vernon did is a nice addition too.