Does the depth of the cup affect tuning?
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
Hello
Question is: "Does a switch from a shallow mouthpiece to a deep mouthpiece or vice versa affect tuning on your trombone? How?"
You do not need to read the rest of the post if you have your answer ready :hi: but if you need inspiration to do your own tests then continue to read my experiments and experience.
My experiments and experience
To me intonation change. I investigated this a lot when I tried to find a mouthpiece for my soprano trombone. It came with a Bach 7C trumpet mouthpiece and I started to seek deeper mouthpieces because I wanted a deeper and more trombone-like sound. I've tried a Schilke 24 and it is very large and tuning is still possible but not deep enough to get the more trombone-like sound I'm after. If I use a small shank trombone mouthpiece the soprano becomes unplayable because of intonation issues. The deepest working mouthpiece is a flugelhorn mouthpiece, then I have to tune as high as possible. It was in this hunt I discovered that the deeper the cup the flatter a horn plays.
When the difference is small it is hardly noticeable to me but as the difference in cup depth becomes larger I have to compensate with the tuningslide.
More experiments...
I have experimented a lot with deep versus shallow cups in a tenor trombone both with same rim and different rims. One of my favorite mouthpieces is a Hammond 12M and it is rather shallow, another mouthpiece is a Hammond 12 MXL. It is the same rim but a deeper cup. When I switch between them I have to compensate with the tuningslide (or play shorter on the slide). I have measured this to be about a half centimeter difference on the tuningslide. This means now I allways push in half a centimeter if I go to the deeper mouthpiece from the shallow and pull back when I go back to the shallow mouthpiece. Besides this it is not a problem with intonation when I change. In this change I haven't noticed I have to adjust my positions much different.
I've tried my Alto trombones with Bach 12C, or other "C" sizes and compared this to a Bach 15E and Bach 12E. What happens is I have to compensate with the tuningslide.
I've tried a 1 1/4G bass trombone mouthpiece in my .547 Conn 88h and then the result was the horn played flatter and also the positions did not line up as they did when I used the tenor mouthpiece Hammond 12M. To be able to investigate this more I would need to shorten my tuningslide.
Naturally I have tried a small shank Bach 11C in a bass trombone too with an adapter. I gave that up right away since positions were real weird. I haven't tried this much so haven't thought of what happend to the tuning. I guess the horn played sharper, but I don't remember. The result was undesirable in so many ways (for me) so I did abandon that right away. :good:
...and now to the strange one...
I have a Martin Magma bass trombone that can be played with any mouthpiece. It is a large shank .536 bore bass trombone with 9" bell. I've played that horn with small shank Bach 11C with adapter, Hammond 12M, 12MXL and Bach 1 1/4G and even a Bach 1G and all work. Positions line up as expected with any of these mouthpieces and the only thing I need to change is the tuningslide. I have to pull out to compensate if I use a more shallow mouthpiece and push in if I use a more deep mouthpiece.
Now to the question.
Have others experienced this phenomenon "You have to compensate with your tuningslide (or mainslide) if you change from a shallow mouthpiece to a deeper and vice versa" or is this something that only happen to me? Does a switch from a shallow mouthpiece to a deep mouthpiece or vice versa affect tuning on your trombone? How?
/Tom
Question is: "Does a switch from a shallow mouthpiece to a deep mouthpiece or vice versa affect tuning on your trombone? How?"
You do not need to read the rest of the post if you have your answer ready :hi: but if you need inspiration to do your own tests then continue to read my experiments and experience.
My experiments and experience
To me intonation change. I investigated this a lot when I tried to find a mouthpiece for my soprano trombone. It came with a Bach 7C trumpet mouthpiece and I started to seek deeper mouthpieces because I wanted a deeper and more trombone-like sound. I've tried a Schilke 24 and it is very large and tuning is still possible but not deep enough to get the more trombone-like sound I'm after. If I use a small shank trombone mouthpiece the soprano becomes unplayable because of intonation issues. The deepest working mouthpiece is a flugelhorn mouthpiece, then I have to tune as high as possible. It was in this hunt I discovered that the deeper the cup the flatter a horn plays.
When the difference is small it is hardly noticeable to me but as the difference in cup depth becomes larger I have to compensate with the tuningslide.
More experiments...
I have experimented a lot with deep versus shallow cups in a tenor trombone both with same rim and different rims. One of my favorite mouthpieces is a Hammond 12M and it is rather shallow, another mouthpiece is a Hammond 12 MXL. It is the same rim but a deeper cup. When I switch between them I have to compensate with the tuningslide (or play shorter on the slide). I have measured this to be about a half centimeter difference on the tuningslide. This means now I allways push in half a centimeter if I go to the deeper mouthpiece from the shallow and pull back when I go back to the shallow mouthpiece. Besides this it is not a problem with intonation when I change. In this change I haven't noticed I have to adjust my positions much different.
I've tried my Alto trombones with Bach 12C, or other "C" sizes and compared this to a Bach 15E and Bach 12E. What happens is I have to compensate with the tuningslide.
I've tried a 1 1/4G bass trombone mouthpiece in my .547 Conn 88h and then the result was the horn played flatter and also the positions did not line up as they did when I used the tenor mouthpiece Hammond 12M. To be able to investigate this more I would need to shorten my tuningslide.
Naturally I have tried a small shank Bach 11C in a bass trombone too with an adapter. I gave that up right away since positions were real weird. I haven't tried this much so haven't thought of what happend to the tuning. I guess the horn played sharper, but I don't remember. The result was undesirable in so many ways (for me) so I did abandon that right away. :good:
...and now to the strange one...
I have a Martin Magma bass trombone that can be played with any mouthpiece. It is a large shank .536 bore bass trombone with 9" bell. I've played that horn with small shank Bach 11C with adapter, Hammond 12M, 12MXL and Bach 1 1/4G and even a Bach 1G and all work. Positions line up as expected with any of these mouthpieces and the only thing I need to change is the tuningslide. I have to pull out to compensate if I use a more shallow mouthpiece and push in if I use a more deep mouthpiece.
Now to the question.
Have others experienced this phenomenon "You have to compensate with your tuningslide (or mainslide) if you change from a shallow mouthpiece to a deeper and vice versa" or is this something that only happen to me? Does a switch from a shallow mouthpiece to a deep mouthpiece or vice versa affect tuning on your trombone? How?
/Tom