Poll: Where is first position Bb?
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
I would be grateful if you measure where you're Bb :bassclef: :space5: is at, when in first position
- Oslide
- Posts: 205
- Joined: Apr 03, 2018
Why did you stop at 200 mm? That's only 20 cm off the bumper.
- GabrielRice
- Posts: 1496
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
+/- 10mm off the bumper for Bb in first position. F is farther, D is closer. F on the valve is almost against the bumper.
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
Are you sure about these increments? 200mm is almost 8 inches. Who's tuning 8 inches off the bumpers?
(I wouldn't necessarily pin it down to one partial either, because then you're discussing intonation differences almost as much as habit.)
Answer: depends on the horn, unless it doesn't. Tuning slide is shut. If 'average 1st position' isn't a safe 1.5" out, I'd consider trimming. If it's more than 2.5" out, I pull the TS enough to bring 1st back around 2" out.
'Ab at the bell', as Harrison likes to advocate, ends up being truish on King/Conn length bells, but not on set back bells, and I don't like using the bell as a reference for anything, so I don't think of it that way.
tl;dr: 2"/51mm
(I wouldn't necessarily pin it down to one partial either, because then you're discussing intonation differences almost as much as habit.)
Answer: depends on the horn, unless it doesn't. Tuning slide is shut. If 'average 1st position' isn't a safe 1.5" out, I'd consider trimming. If it's more than 2.5" out, I pull the TS enough to bring 1st back around 2" out.
'Ab at the bell', as Harrison likes to advocate, ends up being truish on King/Conn length bells, but not on set back bells, and I don't like using the bell as a reference for anything, so I don't think of it that way.
tl;dr: 2"/51mm
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Yeah the poll numbers aren't quite right. Around 50mm
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
[quote="Oslide"]Why did you stop at 200 mm? That's only 20 cm off the bumper.[/quote]
Sorry, I will change the numbers. I got that wrong.
The option 200 mm covers the ones who play with "very long" positions :good: I've changed it now, should have been 20 mm.
I measure the distance I have to move the slide from the bumper to reach my first position, when I play a Bb. If you think MORE than 20 mm isn't enough then you can write how much.
/Tom
Sorry, I will change the numbers. I got that wrong.
The option 200 mm covers the ones who play with "very long" positions :good: I've changed it now, should have been 20 mm.
I measure the distance I have to move the slide from the bumper to reach my first position, when I play a Bb. If you think MORE than 20 mm isn't enough then you can write how much.
/Tom
- AndrewMeronek
- Posts: 1487
- Joined: Mar 30, 2018
[quote="GabrielRice"]+/- 10mm off the bumper for Bb in first position. F is farther, D is closer. F on the valve is almost against the bumper.[/quote]
That's about where I am too. It's not just accomodating the 5th partial; in musical context, in-tune notes can be even sharper.
That's about where I am too. It's not just accomodating the 5th partial; in musical context, in-tune notes can be even sharper.
- OneTon
- Posts: 757
- Joined: Nov 02, 2021
It is located where it is in tune, off the bumpers. 10 mm is in the ball park. If it isn’t I will move the tuning slide.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Find the flattest partial on the instrument. Adjust the tuning slide so that note is at or just off the bumpers. That is first position. Most partials have to be adjusted somewhat.
Play the notes where you get the best sound and they are in tune. Learn to play in tune with yourself using muscle memory.
My goal with tuning is to move all of the positions as far up the slide as possible, and to do it consistently so it's repeatable. . That makes everything easier. I used to believe that I could tune the instrument at any point on the slide, but at some point you mess with 7th position and the bell reference if you use that.
Play the notes where you get the best sound and they are in tune. Learn to play in tune with yourself using muscle memory.
My goal with tuning is to move all of the positions as far up the slide as possible, and to do it consistently so it's repeatable. . That makes everything easier. I used to believe that I could tune the instrument at any point on the slide, but at some point you mess with 7th position and the bell reference if you use that.
- soseggnchips
- Posts: 92
- Joined: Jan 29, 2021
20mm plus... I've been experimenting with having the tuning slide fully in for the last six months or so.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
FWIW, the numbers changed without changing your selection, so you need to go back and revote. Otherwise the numbers won't be accurate for Tom.
I had picked 50+mm, which became 5-10mm.
For me it's easily 5cm off, especially on my 3B.
I had picked 50+mm, which became 5-10mm.
For me it's easily 5cm off, especially on my 3B.
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]FWIW, the numbers changed without changing your selection, so you need to go back and revote. Otherwise the numbers won't be accurate for Tom.
I had picked 50+mm, which became 5-10mm.
For me it's easily 5cm off, especially on my 3B.[/quote]
Yes, but only seven people had voted when I changed and since one was at the bumper and one probably was you it is only 5 that maybe still are in need of a revote. These five might also have understood what I was after because 10 cm or more which they had voted ofcourse is insane. Sorry I messed it up. Could be interesting statistics.
/Tom
I had picked 50+mm, which became 5-10mm.
For me it's easily 5cm off, especially on my 3B.[/quote]
Yes, but only seven people had voted when I changed and since one was at the bumper and one probably was you it is only 5 that maybe still are in need of a revote. These five might also have understood what I was after because 10 cm or more which they had voted ofcourse is insane. Sorry I messed it up. Could be interesting statistics.
/Tom
- HermanGerman
- Posts: 127
- Joined: Oct 29, 2021
I prefer to play in tune
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="HermanGerman"]I prefer to play in tune[/quote]
Do you don't consciously do anything? Come on man.
Everyone here prefers to play in tune
Do you don't consciously do anything? Come on man.
Everyone here prefers to play in tune
- patrickosmith
- Posts: 114
- Joined: Mar 28, 2018
The D on my horn is quite flat so I end up moving the Bb out (by about 1/2 inch) so that the D is good.
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
[quote="patrickosmith"]The D on my horn is quite flat so I end up moving the Bb out (by about 1/2 inch) so that the D is good.[/quote]
Which D? I think it depends on the horn. I've read that this d on first :tenorclef: :space4: is flat on some horns, but I find it to be rather opposite, on the other hand this d :trebleclef: :line4: on first is very flat on my horns when I play them. When I studied I learned I should play that on very flat second position. It was first when I heard about Urbie Green who played with "long positions" and after I started to experiment with that I discovered I could make that high d note my "base" for my first position. So yes I'm one of those who voted more than 20 mm. I have barely a 7th position. It is right where the slide falls off so on a single I am rather limited if a passage down there need me to play a B at 7th pos. I can of course retune and play higher on the slide as I did before when my 1st pos was between 5-10 mm from the bumper. It is not that difficult to retune and play a little higher if I need to do that. If I have a valve this is of course no issue. The high d on 1st is the big gain for me and that note is more common in my parts, since I often play the 1st or 2nd and to have that d in tune I have to push the tuningslide in all the way, and then my "tuning Bb" is off the bumper more than 20 mm. Besides this a vibrato on first position becomes possible as well as beeing able to follow intonation in an orchestra when it raises.
/Tom
Which D? I think it depends on the horn. I've read that this d on first :tenorclef: :space4: is flat on some horns, but I find it to be rather opposite, on the other hand this d :trebleclef: :line4: on first is very flat on my horns when I play them. When I studied I learned I should play that on very flat second position. It was first when I heard about Urbie Green who played with "long positions" and after I started to experiment with that I discovered I could make that high d note my "base" for my first position. So yes I'm one of those who voted more than 20 mm. I have barely a 7th position. It is right where the slide falls off so on a single I am rather limited if a passage down there need me to play a B at 7th pos. I can of course retune and play higher on the slide as I did before when my 1st pos was between 5-10 mm from the bumper. It is not that difficult to retune and play a little higher if I need to do that. If I have a valve this is of course no issue. The high d on 1st is the big gain for me and that note is more common in my parts, since I often play the 1st or 2nd and to have that d in tune I have to push the tuningslide in all the way, and then my "tuning Bb" is off the bumper more than 20 mm. Besides this a vibrato on first position becomes possible as well as beeing able to follow intonation in an orchestra when it raises.
/Tom
- BrianJohnston
- Posts: 1165
- Joined: Jul 11, 2020
Not sure if i'm gaging millimeters correctly, but my high Bb is about a thumb length away from the felt pads if i'm in 440.
- HermanGerman
- Posts: 127
- Joined: Oct 29, 2021
Trumpet players do not discuss this, do you know why?
I have played with many good trumpet players which played in tune...just wondering
I have played with many good trumpet players which played in tune...just wondering
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
[quote="HermanGerman"]Trumpet players do not discuss this, do you know why?
I have played with many good trumpet players which played in tune...just wondering[/quote]
Some trumpet players worry about the[url=https://osmun.com/reeves-sleeves-for-trumpet-mouthpieces/]depth of their mouthpiece down to increments of 1/64" s I'm not sure I would accept judgement from a trumpet player :lol:
I have played with many good trumpet players which played in tune...just wondering[/quote]
Some trumpet players worry about the
- HermanGerman
- Posts: 127
- Joined: Oct 29, 2021
They are at the top of brass pyramid...I do
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
[quote="HermanGerman"]I prefer to play in tune[/quote]
[quote="HermanGerman"]Trumpet players do not discuss this, do you know why?
I have played with many good trumpet players which played in tune...just wondering[/quote]
I get it. You have never thought about this subject. Fine, I think we understand that by now. :good:
/Tom
[quote="HermanGerman"]Trumpet players do not discuss this, do you know why?
I have played with many good trumpet players which played in tune...just wondering[/quote]
I get it. You have never thought about this subject. Fine, I think we understand that by now. :good:
/Tom
- Kevbach33
- Posts: 295
- Joined: May 29, 2018
I've been playing with my tuning slide all the way in on all my trombones (until it's too darn hot...). For me, that puts the hand slide about an inch/25.4mm or so away from the bumpers for :bassclef: :space5: flat, from small tenor to bass. This still gives me a useable 7th position, which is my criterion for tuning.
:tenorclef: :space4: (I think this is the note people refer to as their "D") is still ~12mm off the bumpers, maybe a little closer, while :trebleclef: :space2: flat is maybe a touch flat at the bumpers. But I prefer using 3rd for that note anyway.
:tenorclef: :space4: (I think this is the note people refer to as their "D") is still ~12mm off the bumpers, maybe a little closer, while :trebleclef: :space2: flat is maybe a touch flat at the bumpers. But I prefer using 3rd for that note anyway.
- BrianJohnston
- Posts: 1165
- Joined: Jul 11, 2020
[quote="HermanGerman"]They are at the top of brass pyramid...I do[/quote]
Only the principal trumpet is the top of the brass pyramid, followed by the other brass principals
Only the principal trumpet is the top of the brass pyramid, followed by the other brass principals