Brahms symphony no. 2 Tenor or alto tbone?
- whitbey
- Posts: 654
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Brahms symphony no. 2 Tenor or alto tbone?
Part says alto. Youtube I see tenors. But as Abe Lincoln said, "You can't trust what you find on the internet"
Part says alto. Youtube I see tenors. But as Abe Lincoln said, "You can't trust what you find on the internet"
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
I'm sure someone has played it on alto somewhere, but I've never heard or seen it.
- CalgaryTbone
- Posts: 1460
- Joined: May 10, 2018
There's a trend towards using alto on all of the Brahms symphonies these days, and there is supposed to a quote from Brahms saying that he wrote for a "true" alto trombone. That being said, some of the contributors here who are more plugged-in to historical practices will tell you that a "true" alto trombone may have varied from one location to another. Also, what the part says isn't always helpful, because that was often a publisher's decision, and tradition played a role in that.
Nobody that I knew used an alto for Brahms when I was a student, or starting out in my career, and we would have looked upon someone doing so as crazy. The alto was rare in N. America at that point, and the sound associated with Brahms was warm and full-bodied. That approach is still valid, but the alto brings out a lighter sound, and more separation between the individual trombones - also valid. To compromise, some major 1st players will use a German small tenor, or a large bore alto or a bigger alto mouthpiece to split the difference.
So. my answer is "all of the above". Figure out which option fits best into your concept of the best blend of the section for Brahms. Also, add in which instrument can you personally play the best for the part. Being lighter won't necessarily be appreciated if the tuning on all of those soft chords is problematic. There are lots of fairly low passages on the alto in the 2nd, with some exposed low E naturals - some altos barely have a 7th position.
Whichever you choose, it probably makes sense to not play the higher parts too "heavy" if you're playing tenor, and not play too "bright" if you're using alto. Enjoy it - one of the greatest symphonies ever written, with GREAT low brass writing.
Jim Scott
Nobody that I knew used an alto for Brahms when I was a student, or starting out in my career, and we would have looked upon someone doing so as crazy. The alto was rare in N. America at that point, and the sound associated with Brahms was warm and full-bodied. That approach is still valid, but the alto brings out a lighter sound, and more separation between the individual trombones - also valid. To compromise, some major 1st players will use a German small tenor, or a large bore alto or a bigger alto mouthpiece to split the difference.
So. my answer is "all of the above". Figure out which option fits best into your concept of the best blend of the section for Brahms. Also, add in which instrument can you personally play the best for the part. Being lighter won't necessarily be appreciated if the tuning on all of those soft chords is problematic. There are lots of fairly low passages on the alto in the 2nd, with some exposed low E naturals - some altos barely have a 7th position.
Whichever you choose, it probably makes sense to not play the higher parts too "heavy" if you're playing tenor, and not play too "bright" if you're using alto. Enjoy it - one of the greatest symphonies ever written, with GREAT low brass writing.
Jim Scott
- CalgaryTbone
- Posts: 1460
- Joined: May 10, 2018
[quote="Burgerbob"]I'm sure someone has played it on alto somewhere, but I've never heard or seen it.[/quote]
There was a really nice Chicago Symphony (Muti) Brahms 2 with Jay playing alto on YouTube. Not sure if it's still there. Muti's tempo is SLOW too, but the orchestra sounds great.
JS
There was a really nice Chicago Symphony (Muti) Brahms 2 with Jay playing alto on YouTube. Not sure if it's still there. Muti's tempo is SLOW too, but the orchestra sounds great.
JS
- GabrielRice
- Posts: 1496
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I've been in the section both ways. I like it both ways, and it very much depends on the player. If you're comfortable on alto and have an instrument that works for your orchestra in that repertoire, I say go for it.
- GabrielRice
- Posts: 1496
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I think the last time I played it the principal played alto. Brahms 1st and 4th too. About ten years ago I played a Brahms 3rd with the principal playing a small bore tenor (a MV Bach 8). Sounded great.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
I would play 2nd on tenor in any case. If 1st is on alto, a smaller bore instrument may work better (or not) depending on the sound concept the MD is looking for.
I find that the section should be alto-tenor-bass, or tenor-tenor-bass (or even tenor-tenor-tenor) but not two altos. Even if both parts are in alto clef.
I find that the section should be alto-tenor-bass, or tenor-tenor-bass (or even tenor-tenor-tenor) but not two altos. Even if both parts are in alto clef.
- GabrielRice
- Posts: 1496
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Bach5G"]If 1st is on alto, what about 2nd?[/quote]
I assume your question is what flavor of tenor...depends on the players.
Whatever it is, it's gotta be in tune.
I assume your question is what flavor of tenor...depends on the players.
Whatever it is, it's gotta be in tune.
- Crazy4Tbone86
- Posts: 1654
- Joined: Jan 14, 2020
Never witnessed Brahms 2nd played with alto. Interesting idea because alto works well on other works like Brahms 1st.
As others have mentioned, it seems to me that the other trombones would need need to “tame their equipment” in order to make the big finale work.
As others have mentioned, it seems to me that the other trombones would need need to “tame their equipment” in order to make the big finale work.
- andym
- Posts: 127
- Joined: Dec 23, 2018
[quote="whitbey"]Brahms symphony no. 2 Tenor or alto tbone?
Part says alto. Youtube I see tenors. But as Abe Lincoln said, "You can't trust what you find on the internet"[/quote]
And didn’t George Washington say, “never pick your trombone based on Romantic era score notation.”
Part says alto. Youtube I see tenors. But as Abe Lincoln said, "You can't trust what you find on the internet"[/quote]
And didn’t George Washington say, “never pick your trombone based on Romantic era score notation.”
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
[quote="Matt K"]It goes against the grain a little but I prefer 3 altos[/quote]
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- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I've played Brahms 2 several times (and love it) - but not in the past 15 years or so when alto trombones have become more widely used. So I'm accustomed to the sound of a tenor trombone on both 1st and 2nd parts (and a large tenor on 3rd!).
Alto for 1st part may sound better on Brahms 1; perhaps Brahms 4 or 3 - but again I'm a dinosaur, and love the sound I grew up with!
Alto for 1st part may sound better on Brahms 1; perhaps Brahms 4 or 3 - but again I'm a dinosaur, and love the sound I grew up with!
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
Brahms 2 was written, and premiered, in Vienna, where the section at the time was three Bb...valve (!) trombones.
Brahms was definitely familiar with a sound of alto tenor and bass, and there's a letter of his demanding that a performance be done that way if at all possible. His trombone writing in symphonies 2 and 3 differs from his writing in 1, in ways that suggest he was aware that what he was getting in Vienna was different.
That doesn't really matter though in terms of performance decisions today. You're not playing on historical instruments, and neither is anyone else in your orchestra. Use what works best for you, for the section, for the orchestra. Whatever you use will be vastly different from what was used then, and that's okay.
In any case, what's written on the score/parts means very little. Notation conventions with German 19th-20th century editors don't translate to specific instruments. They almost always wrote alto, tenor and bass. German editions of French music will say alto, tenor and bass, even though the bass was virtually unheard of there and the alto very rare.
Brahms was definitely familiar with a sound of alto tenor and bass, and there's a letter of his demanding that a performance be done that way if at all possible. His trombone writing in symphonies 2 and 3 differs from his writing in 1, in ways that suggest he was aware that what he was getting in Vienna was different.
That doesn't really matter though in terms of performance decisions today. You're not playing on historical instruments, and neither is anyone else in your orchestra. Use what works best for you, for the section, for the orchestra. Whatever you use will be vastly different from what was used then, and that's okay.
In any case, what's written on the score/parts means very little. Notation conventions with German 19th-20th century editors don't translate to specific instruments. They almost always wrote alto, tenor and bass. German editions of French music will say alto, tenor and bass, even though the bass was virtually unheard of there and the alto very rare.
- CalgaryTbone
- Posts: 1460
- Joined: May 10, 2018
[quote="Posaunus"]I've played Brahms 2 several times (and love it) - but not in the past 15 years or so when alto trombones have become more widely used. So I'm accustomed to the sound of a tenor trombone on both 1st and 2nd parts (and a large tenor on 3rd!).
Alto for 1st part may sound better on Brahms 1; perhaps Brahms 4 or 3 - but again I'm a dinosaur, and love the sound I grew up with![/quote]
I'm "old-school" too, but having heard some others make the alto work well on recordings, I'm open minded to the concept. Not for me, though, at this point in my career. I'm not sure that I could trust myself to play those high "D's" in 2nd position! :o
JS
Alto for 1st part may sound better on Brahms 1; perhaps Brahms 4 or 3 - but again I'm a dinosaur, and love the sound I grew up with![/quote]
I'm "old-school" too, but having heard some others make the alto work well on recordings, I'm open minded to the concept. Not for me, though, at this point in my career. I'm not sure that I could trust myself to play those high "D's" in 2nd position! :o
JS
- OneTon
- Posts: 757
- Joined: Nov 02, 2021
Brahms 1st and 2nd might work with an alto and smaller bore tenors, or smaller bore tenors. The 3rd and 4th are flirting with post romanticism or at least setting the table for post romanticism. They need at least large bore tenors for 2nd and 3rd, and at least a small bore tenor for 1st. On the 4th Symphony, if anything, and if I recall correctly, the 2nd part has the third or seventh of the triad, which needs to be locked in, and the 2nd part is supported by the 1st chair. Maybe I’ll spring for a plane ticket if I find out someone is playing the 3rd or 4th with an alto.
- JoeAumann
- Posts: 84
- Joined: Sep 10, 2018
I find a .525 bore tenor to be the ideal instrument for 1st on Brahms 2.
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
I always play it on alto. Here's an article about the letter where Brahms asks for a genuine small alto trombone. This was before he wrote the 2nd Symphony, but shows he was very aware of what an alto trombone was.
<LINK_TEXT text="https://kimballtrombone.com/2009/08/07/ ... -trombone/">https://kimballtrombone.com/2009/08/07/a-remarkable-brahms-letter-genuine-little-alto-trombone/</LINK_TEXT>
<LINK_TEXT text="https://kimballtrombone.com/2009/08/07/ ... -trombone/">https://kimballtrombone.com/2009/08/07/a-remarkable-brahms-letter-genuine-little-alto-trombone/</LINK_TEXT>
- Retrobone
- Posts: 72
- Joined: Sep 24, 2018
I performed this symphony last Tuesday in a very big hall with a well known conductor. The first trombonist played a Leuchter alto, I played my Conn Greenhoe and the bass trombone was an Edwards. No one commented on the use of alto (most certainly not the conductor) and the section was very positively received by all.
- JoeAumann
- Posts: 84
- Joined: Sep 10, 2018
[quote="Retrobone"]I performed this symphony last Tuesday in a very big hall with a well known conductor. The first trombonist played a Leuchter alto, I played my Conn Greenhoe and the bass trombone was an Edwards. No one commented on the use of alto (most certainly not the conductor) and the section was very positively received by all.[/quote]
Hard to beat MM's alto playing. Though, I found your playing of your scale at the end to be most satisfying of the trio.
Hard to beat MM's alto playing. Though, I found your playing of your scale at the end to be most satisfying of the trio.