How to Sight-Read
- EriKon
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Apr 03, 2022
I always found this interesting: What's your approach in sight reading? And how have you developed/practiced it?
The thing is: I think I became quite good in sight reading over the last few years, but it's nothing that I really worked on or that I got a lot of input for. It mostly developed, because I often had to do it... Learning by doing. Talked with some colleagues about it and seems like everyone does it differently. Some read like 4 bars ahead of what they're playing in the moment, some just focus on downbeats, some just focus on the rests and go from there, some think in eighth note rasters and so on...
So, what's your method and how did you develop it?
The thing is: I think I became quite good in sight reading over the last few years, but it's nothing that I really worked on or that I got a lot of input for. It mostly developed, because I often had to do it... Learning by doing. Talked with some colleagues about it and seems like everyone does it differently. Some read like 4 bars ahead of what they're playing in the moment, some just focus on downbeats, some just focus on the rests and go from there, some think in eighth note rasters and so on...
So, what's your method and how did you develop it?
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I was a very bad sight reader, but I've practiced a few techniques and improved significantly. First, I played all the scale pattern things in Arbans and realized that music is made of patterns. There are also some excercises with 4 and 5 and 6 note patterns. So I learned to look ahead and recognize patterns of notes. Then I started recognizing rhythms, especially rhythms related to certain styles. Narrowing down the patterns by style really helps. Also, I shouldn't need to say this, but it was an issue for me - I tended to get distracted a lot, so being able to focus just on the music was important. Separate the notes by beat, and understand all the subdivision stuff which should already be ticking in your head as well, especially for slow time signatures. I know some people who beat 2 patterns left, right, left, right - kind of like marching, but it helps you keep track of the beat as you play. It sounds basic, but it helps keep you from getting lost in repetitive stuff .
To be able to read, you have to be fluent in all key signatures, and all clefs. So all the Arbans and Mantia stuff where they write out simple patterns again and again seem like a waste of time, but they are valuable. Try to memorize the patterns in all variations. Developing your ear and memory also help for reading.
And more than anything, practice sight reading to time. Don't slow down, don't stop, keep playing in time. A great way to practice this is with duets or other small groups. This is something you should do anyway. Get together with friends and play stuff you don't know.
To be able to read, you have to be fluent in all key signatures, and all clefs. So all the Arbans and Mantia stuff where they write out simple patterns again and again seem like a waste of time, but they are valuable. Try to memorize the patterns in all variations. Developing your ear and memory also help for reading.
And more than anything, practice sight reading to time. Don't slow down, don't stop, keep playing in time. A great way to practice this is with duets or other small groups. This is something you should do anyway. Get together with friends and play stuff you don't know.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
In my experience I had to start learning vocabulary: recognizing patterns of notes like scales or arpeggios. You can read faster if you are just looking for familiar patterns to play. Also, getting comfortable playing scales and arpeggios in all keys is a bonus.
Second, I spend a few minutes looking at the music before I tackle it. Look for complicated spots, note repeats, tempo, key signatures, etc.
I try to read a bar or two ahead, being proactive rather than reactive. If you don't see the note until you have to play it, you are going to be late every time.
Develop a sense of music so that if you get lost you can find yourself quickly. Most jazz tunes are in 8 bar phrases -- keep a running count in your head so if you appear to be on Bar 7 but the count says Bar 8, you can "right" yourself. On larger works a set of intelligent rehearsal marks will show where the phrases start (although this isn't always the case).
Finally, this doesn't come from reading books. You have to do it. Playing in a band where you rehearse one day and play the concert the next, or even one where you are playing the music for the concert the first time forces you to learn all these "tricks" in order to survive. Yes, the performance in these ensembles is never really polished, but as you learn to play more different pieces, you find some that come back again and again, while others look like something you've done before. That adds a bit of refinement to the product.
Second, I spend a few minutes looking at the music before I tackle it. Look for complicated spots, note repeats, tempo, key signatures, etc.
I try to read a bar or two ahead, being proactive rather than reactive. If you don't see the note until you have to play it, you are going to be late every time.
Develop a sense of music so that if you get lost you can find yourself quickly. Most jazz tunes are in 8 bar phrases -- keep a running count in your head so if you appear to be on Bar 7 but the count says Bar 8, you can "right" yourself. On larger works a set of intelligent rehearsal marks will show where the phrases start (although this isn't always the case).
Finally, this doesn't come from reading books. You have to do it. Playing in a band where you rehearse one day and play the concert the next, or even one where you are playing the music for the concert the first time forces you to learn all these "tricks" in order to survive. Yes, the performance in these ensembles is never really polished, but as you learn to play more different pieces, you find some that come back again and again, while others look like something you've done before. That adds a bit of refinement to the product.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
I finally learned to sight-read when I got into a band that read new music at every rehearsal. They didn't spend months on the same few pieces. I could read music but now I HAD to do it better.
I learned to sight read and I learned to watch the conductor while i was reading because both were essential for this band that mostly read things.
[quote="BGuttman"]I try to read a bar or two ahead, being proactive rather than reactive. If you don't see the note until you have to play it, you are going to be late every time.[/quote]
This is important. Most trombone music isn't very dense so it should be very do-able to keep glancing at what's coming up and knowing what is in the very next bar.
I learned to sight read and I learned to watch the conductor while i was reading because both were essential for this band that mostly read things.
[quote="BGuttman"]I try to read a bar or two ahead, being proactive rather than reactive. If you don't see the note until you have to play it, you are going to be late every time.[/quote]
This is important. Most trombone music isn't very dense so it should be very do-able to keep glancing at what's coming up and knowing what is in the very next bar.
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
Patterns and styles.
Becoming expert at sightreading Sousa marches won't help you at all with big band music. But they will help you a LOT if your group plays a lot of marches.
Rhythms are the hard parts. If you have to count you're lost. Rhythms must be recalled from the memory banks just like scale fragments.
Becoming expert at sightreading Sousa marches won't help you at all with big band music. But they will help you a LOT if your group plays a lot of marches.
Rhythms are the hard parts. If you have to count you're lost. Rhythms must be recalled from the memory banks just like scale fragments.
- WilliamLang
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Nov 22, 2019
Just my 2 cents here: In addition to learning patterns from exercises and marches, play more contemporary music! When you can start reading and understanding stuff like Xenakis, Scelsi, or what have you, then more tonal music starts to recontextualize itself in easier and more manageable ways.
The French etude books also work really well for this, and Alice Jones' new Etudes for Trombone have a great balance between contemporary intervals and tonal patterning.
The French etude books also work really well for this, and Alice Jones' new Etudes for Trombone have a great balance between contemporary intervals and tonal patterning.
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
My 2 cents. When you sight read in a big band dance gig you might have a few seconds between the songs. I quickly scan the sheet for:
1. Key changes.
2. Repeats. Observe where they are.
3. Da Capo and Dal Segno. Make sure you find where to jump.
4. Any notes that someone has made in the part. It might be what the band will do, or not? You never know, just be prepared. If I have the time and the college is someone to trust I might ask if the comments are good.
5. Difficult/awkward phrases. Read them through a couple of times. If I have the time I magine I play them and my hand will then do small movements. No big moves, just to make it more familiar.
It takes about ten seconds to prepare and do this, and it reduces my errors alot.
/Tom
1. Key changes.
2. Repeats. Observe where they are.
3. Da Capo and Dal Segno. Make sure you find where to jump.
4. Any notes that someone has made in the part. It might be what the band will do, or not? You never know, just be prepared. If I have the time and the college is someone to trust I might ask if the comments are good.
5. Difficult/awkward phrases. Read them through a couple of times. If I have the time I magine I play them and my hand will then do small movements. No big moves, just to make it more familiar.
It takes about ten seconds to prepare and do this, and it reduces my errors alot.
/Tom
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="imsevimse"]
5. Difficult/awkward phrases. Read them through a couple of times. If I have the time I magine I play them and my hand will then do small movements. No big moves, just to make it more familiar.
It takes about ten seconds to prepare and do this, and it reduces my errors alot.
/Tom[/quote]
This something you can do anytime, on your own, without the horn.
Imagine you are playing, move your slide arm, think about alternate ways you might play with different positions, etc.
It works, you don't have to actually play to work on sightreading.
5. Difficult/awkward phrases. Read them through a couple of times. If I have the time I magine I play them and my hand will then do small movements. No big moves, just to make it more familiar.
It takes about ten seconds to prepare and do this, and it reduces my errors alot.
/Tom[/quote]
This something you can do anytime, on your own, without the horn.
Imagine you are playing, move your slide arm, think about alternate ways you might play with different positions, etc.
It works, you don't have to actually play to work on sightreading.
- Kdanielsen
- Posts: 609
- Joined: Jul 28, 2019
[quote="Doug Elliott"]<QUOTE author="imsevimse" post_id="186955" time="1661195512" user_id="3173">
5. Difficult/awkward phrases. Read them through a couple of times. If I have the time I magine I play them and my hand will then do small movements. No big moves, just to make it more familiar.
It takes about ten seconds to prepare and do this, and it reduces my errors alot.
/Tom[/quote]
This something you can do anytime, on your own, without the horn.
Imagine you are playing, move your slide arm, think about alternate ways you might play with different positions, etc.
It works, you don't have to actually play to work on sightreading.
</QUOTE>
This is also how i memorized stuff for my dma recitals. Worked very well!
5. Difficult/awkward phrases. Read them through a couple of times. If I have the time I magine I play them and my hand will then do small movements. No big moves, just to make it more familiar.
It takes about ten seconds to prepare and do this, and it reduces my errors alot.
/Tom[/quote]
This something you can do anytime, on your own, without the horn.
Imagine you are playing, move your slide arm, think about alternate ways you might play with different positions, etc.
It works, you don't have to actually play to work on sightreading.
</QUOTE>
This is also how i memorized stuff for my dma recitals. Worked very well!
- Crazy4Tbone86
- Posts: 1654
- Joined: Jan 14, 2020
Sight-reading is all about three different skills and making them part of your regular practice routine:
1. Practicing unfamiliar rhythmic patterns and doing enough repetitions that they become “familiar” and automatic. The level of rhythm difficulty depends on the player. High level players may need to dig deep to find challenging material.
2. Practicing scale, arpeggio and interval patterns regularly. Again, the level of difficulty depends on the player. Young students may practice the basic scales. Advanced players might practice minor 9ths or major/minor 10ths to keep thing interesting.
3. This is the most important skill! A regular routine of playing through something (entire piece or section of a piece) without stopping for any mistakes. This can be done with a familiar piece, a somewhat familiar piece, or a brand new piece. It requires the musician to MAKE RHYTHM A TOP PRIORITY. Again, even if every pitch is wrong, keep going and make every effort to make the rhythm accurate.
The final skill recreates the experience of sight reading a piece in an ensemble. After all, that is where great sight reading skills pay huge dividends…..the ability to accurately play new pieces in ensembles.
1. Practicing unfamiliar rhythmic patterns and doing enough repetitions that they become “familiar” and automatic. The level of rhythm difficulty depends on the player. High level players may need to dig deep to find challenging material.
2. Practicing scale, arpeggio and interval patterns regularly. Again, the level of difficulty depends on the player. Young students may practice the basic scales. Advanced players might practice minor 9ths or major/minor 10ths to keep thing interesting.
3. This is the most important skill! A regular routine of playing through something (entire piece or section of a piece) without stopping for any mistakes. This can be done with a familiar piece, a somewhat familiar piece, or a brand new piece. It requires the musician to MAKE RHYTHM A TOP PRIORITY. Again, even if every pitch is wrong, keep going and make every effort to make the rhythm accurate.
The final skill recreates the experience of sight reading a piece in an ensemble. After all, that is where great sight reading skills pay huge dividends…..the ability to accurately play new pieces in ensembles.
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
To work on reading ahead of where you are playing, you’ll need some help to get REALLY good at it. Have somebody work with you on something you are playing, have them cover it up one bar ahead of where you are; two bars; three bars; one line; two lines…. Sounds difficult, but if you do it on something you are only half familiar with, the next etude in a known book for example, you can practice doing that quick memorization and playback pretty robustly.
I find this is very helpful, especially for those tricky licks… if you are looking at it a line or two ahead of time, you have the time to read it twice if it doesn’t click, then you have to get back ahead after those couple of bars to get back to your comfortable distance ahead.
From there, I have nothing more specific to add than to just do it. My favorite groups do a lot of sight reading and push through a lot of charts. My least favorite ones have no sight reading chops and spend rehearsal time pounding things together.
Cheers,
Andy
I find this is very helpful, especially for those tricky licks… if you are looking at it a line or two ahead of time, you have the time to read it twice if it doesn’t click, then you have to get back ahead after those couple of bars to get back to your comfortable distance ahead.
From there, I have nothing more specific to add than to just do it. My favorite groups do a lot of sight reading and push through a lot of charts. My least favorite ones have no sight reading chops and spend rehearsal time pounding things together.
Cheers,
Andy
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
I would nominate "sight reading" as the most under-taught of the desirable musical skills.
Next would be "intonation".
"Following a conductor" might be in there also.
Next would be "intonation".
"Following a conductor" might be in there also.
- EriKon
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Apr 03, 2022
[quote="robcat2075"]I would nominate "sight reading" as the most under-taught of the desirable musical skills.
Next would be "intonation".
"Following a conductor" might be in there also.[/quote]
Absolutely! That's why I started this thread :) I think that's because there are very little concepts for those. Most of the teaching trombonists have a technical concept and a musical concept, but they rarely have a concept on those points from my experience. That doesn't mean that they can't do that, it's just about the pedagogical concept that is missing.
I've recognized from myself that I scan beforehand on key, meter and Tempo changes, repeats, da capos/segnos and notes in the part. Once I'm playing I read about a bar ahead. But much of it is being prepared before you actually have to do it I think. Like knowing what kind of patterns are common in this specific style of music, especially rhythmically. For example reading Funk music can be complicated if you are not prepared to read such thing, because it often has so many 16th note rhythms all over the place. But if you know typical rhythms it's much easier to read it.
Next would be "intonation".
"Following a conductor" might be in there also.[/quote]
Absolutely! That's why I started this thread :) I think that's because there are very little concepts for those. Most of the teaching trombonists have a technical concept and a musical concept, but they rarely have a concept on those points from my experience. That doesn't mean that they can't do that, it's just about the pedagogical concept that is missing.
I've recognized from myself that I scan beforehand on key, meter and Tempo changes, repeats, da capos/segnos and notes in the part. Once I'm playing I read about a bar ahead. But much of it is being prepared before you actually have to do it I think. Like knowing what kind of patterns are common in this specific style of music, especially rhythmically. For example reading Funk music can be complicated if you are not prepared to read such thing, because it often has so many 16th note rhythms all over the place. But if you know typical rhythms it's much easier to read it.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
[quote="EriKon"]<QUOTE author="robcat2075" post_id="187119" time="1661361403" user_id="3697">
I would nominate "sight reading" as the most under-taught of the desirable musical skills.
Next would be "intonation".
"Following a conductor" might be in there also.[/quote]
... I think that's because there are very little concepts for those. Most of the teaching trombonists have a technical concept and a musical concept, but they rarely have a concept on those points from my experience...
</QUOTE>
As i look back over the many teachers I had, both for private lessons or as leaders of ensembles, their concept seemed to be an expectation (wish?) that these issues would somehow naturally improve on their own after years of time and practice and experience and that little more could be done than to wait for expertise to arrive.
Which is a lot like not having a concept. :D
I would nominate "sight reading" as the most under-taught of the desirable musical skills.
Next would be "intonation".
"Following a conductor" might be in there also.[/quote]
... I think that's because there are very little concepts for those. Most of the teaching trombonists have a technical concept and a musical concept, but they rarely have a concept on those points from my experience...
</QUOTE>
As i look back over the many teachers I had, both for private lessons or as leaders of ensembles, their concept seemed to be an expectation (wish?) that these issues would somehow naturally improve on their own after years of time and practice and experience and that little more could be done than to wait for expertise to arrive.
Which is a lot like not having a concept. :D
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
[quote="robcat2075"]I would nominate "sight reading" as the most under-taught of the desirable musical skills.
Next would be "intonation".
"Following a conductor" might be in there also.[/quote]
Yes, I think you are right.
Sight reading - besides what I wrote before I practice this at home by reading, reading and reading. I've bought every minus-one-play-a-long CD I've stumbled on and when I've done my short warmup and my basic routines I play those records. I've bought them for tuba, trumpet and french horn and also g-clef in c too which means I practice transposing as well as reading non transposing in both clefs. Maybe bassoon should be the next thing to try or cello perhaps. I just press play and try to keep up with the tempo. After this I go through the sections where I fail and practice them without the cd and try to speed up so I can match the tempo on the cd. I guess you could pick any etude book and play with a metronome if you dont want to buy all those play-a-long books. I think it is important to push the tempo as a method to sight read better because you get used to look more ahead if the tempo is faster.
Intonation - I haven't had a teacher who really taught that. I have a good ear and do a lot of arranging and composing so I've solved this myself. There are different kinds of intonation. What about the major third in a chord? That note can be "different" in tune if you play with a piano or if you play in a trombone quartet. Locking forward to that thread. Great idea!
Following a conductor - yes, but every conductor is different and you have to learn that particular conductor and every orchestra is also different. Some play when the baton hits the bottom and some play somewhere after that untl the baton is at its highest position. Where exactly epends on the orchestra, the conductor the character of what's played and also the tempo (probably more things). I'm looking forward to that thread too. Great idea too!
/Tom
Next would be "intonation".
"Following a conductor" might be in there also.[/quote]
Yes, I think you are right.
Sight reading - besides what I wrote before I practice this at home by reading, reading and reading. I've bought every minus-one-play-a-long CD I've stumbled on and when I've done my short warmup and my basic routines I play those records. I've bought them for tuba, trumpet and french horn and also g-clef in c too which means I practice transposing as well as reading non transposing in both clefs. Maybe bassoon should be the next thing to try or cello perhaps. I just press play and try to keep up with the tempo. After this I go through the sections where I fail and practice them without the cd and try to speed up so I can match the tempo on the cd. I guess you could pick any etude book and play with a metronome if you dont want to buy all those play-a-long books. I think it is important to push the tempo as a method to sight read better because you get used to look more ahead if the tempo is faster.
Intonation - I haven't had a teacher who really taught that. I have a good ear and do a lot of arranging and composing so I've solved this myself. There are different kinds of intonation. What about the major third in a chord? That note can be "different" in tune if you play with a piano or if you play in a trombone quartet. Locking forward to that thread. Great idea!
Following a conductor - yes, but every conductor is different and you have to learn that particular conductor and every orchestra is also different. Some play when the baton hits the bottom and some play somewhere after that untl the baton is at its highest position. Where exactly epends on the orchestra, the conductor the character of what's played and also the tempo (probably more things). I'm looking forward to that thread too. Great idea too!
/Tom
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
[quote="imsevimse"]Intonation... There are different kinds of intonation. What about the major third in a chord? That note can be "different" in tune if you play with a piano or if you play in a trombone quartet.[/quote]
That difference can be demonstrated and heard. If something can be demonstrated and heard it can be taught and practiced.
I would venture that a player who has developed the acuity to tune a "just" third will also have the acuity needed to modify his pitch to match an equal-tempered instrument in an ensemble.
That difference can be demonstrated and heard. If something can be demonstrated and heard it can be taught and practiced.
I would venture that a player who has developed the acuity to tune a "just" third will also have the acuity needed to modify his pitch to match an equal-tempered instrument in an ensemble.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="robcat2075"]I would venture that a player who has developed the acuity to tune a "just" third will also have the acuity needed to modify his pitch to match an equal-tempered instrument in an ensemble.[/quote]
I have heard players who didn't.
I have heard players who didn't.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
[quote="Doug Elliott"]<QUOTE author="robcat2075" post_id="187152" time="1661384063" user_id="3697">
I would venture that a player who has developed the acuity to tune a "just" third will also have the acuity needed to modify his pitch to match an equal-tempered instrument in an ensemble.[/quote]
I have heard players who didn't.
</QUOTE>
That is probably more a sign of incomplete or absent teaching at work than a proof that learning to tune a third will create some horrible lifelong handicap.
But you already knew that.
I would venture that a player who has developed the acuity to tune a "just" third will also have the acuity needed to modify his pitch to match an equal-tempered instrument in an ensemble.[/quote]
I have heard players who didn't.
</QUOTE>
That is probably more a sign of incomplete or absent teaching at work than a proof that learning to tune a third will create some horrible lifelong handicap.
But you already knew that.
- VJOFan
- Posts: 529
- Joined: Apr 06, 2018
This conceptual drawing was created in the early 2000’s, but is just now widely gaining traction in public education. (Inertia + corporate interests = stagnation of thought) It’s about reading printed text, but the general idea of reading relates to music up to the point where the speed of our reading is often externally controlled. It might be a good way of seeing at a glance all the parts that go into fluent (sight) reading. It also explains why different players perceive their paths to fluency being different- it’s a complicated thing to read, so we will each notice different things.
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- BurckhardtS
- Posts: 253
- Joined: Mar 25, 2018
I agree that it is an under-taught skill. My experience of music school was rehearsing the same music 3x a week for 10 weeks (ugh). On real gigs, there may be one or no rehearsal, and you may need to play 3 hours of music with no rehearsal.
I was not very good at sight reading when I got to college and it took me a few periods of working on it diligently to get to a state where I'm pretty comfortable sight reading 90% of the music that gets put in front of me. This includes lead sheets and chords. I've seen people say they think sight reading is an inherent ability and that's just not true.
Some concepts that are important for me:
1. Time - Always be reading with a pulse, most importantly practice not losing track of beat 1 (in any meter or style)
2. Rhythms First - If you get to something that is too complicated, play the rhythm correctly and throw out the notes. You won't get lost this way and it's better than stepping in a hole
3. Tracking - Always keep your eyes tracking across the page, and DON'T read ahead. Specifically, I try not to read more than a beat at a time. I know people are taught to read a measure ahead, and that's probably okay for things that are not very complex. If you start seeing swing or latin syncopations, especially 16th patterns, good luck reading ahead by a whole measure. A lot of reading mistakes are caused by looking too far ahead and forgetting what you were playing (staying in the moment).
4. Don't stop!
One summer I spent nearly every day finding any PDF I could find of big band or wind band music and throwing on the recording, trying to play along and not stopping.
A few summers later, I was playing with this big band regularly as a sub, I think I played 4-5 gigs with them, and I generally had very little notice if I was needed and I would sub in on any part (including bass). The book had about 200 charts and I just used it as a lab to practice my reading skills. Some gigs were 3 hours long and some of the charts we were doing were complex. All that said, it was a pretty low stakes environment so I really got a lot out of it.
And yes - once you practice the skills (correctly) enough, it becomes an automatic reaction to seeing music.
I was not very good at sight reading when I got to college and it took me a few periods of working on it diligently to get to a state where I'm pretty comfortable sight reading 90% of the music that gets put in front of me. This includes lead sheets and chords. I've seen people say they think sight reading is an inherent ability and that's just not true.
Some concepts that are important for me:
1. Time - Always be reading with a pulse, most importantly practice not losing track of beat 1 (in any meter or style)
2. Rhythms First - If you get to something that is too complicated, play the rhythm correctly and throw out the notes. You won't get lost this way and it's better than stepping in a hole
3. Tracking - Always keep your eyes tracking across the page, and DON'T read ahead. Specifically, I try not to read more than a beat at a time. I know people are taught to read a measure ahead, and that's probably okay for things that are not very complex. If you start seeing swing or latin syncopations, especially 16th patterns, good luck reading ahead by a whole measure. A lot of reading mistakes are caused by looking too far ahead and forgetting what you were playing (staying in the moment).
4. Don't stop!
One summer I spent nearly every day finding any PDF I could find of big band or wind band music and throwing on the recording, trying to play along and not stopping.
A few summers later, I was playing with this big band regularly as a sub, I think I played 4-5 gigs with them, and I generally had very little notice if I was needed and I would sub in on any part (including bass). The book had about 200 charts and I just used it as a lab to practice my reading skills. Some gigs were 3 hours long and some of the charts we were doing were complex. All that said, it was a pretty low stakes environment so I really got a lot out of it.
And yes - once you practice the skills (correctly) enough, it becomes an automatic reaction to seeing music.
- jjs2877
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Aug 25, 2022
I'm in my mid-forties and have never taken a music class or played an instrument in my life. A few months ago, I decided to learn to read music and play instruments. Call it a mid-life crisis. And I basically learned like I would have when I was a kid. I bought flashcards. And then I made more with different combinations of notes. My sight reading is still pretty bad, but I started from 0 and can sight read simple tunes (in the keys I know, and obviously I only know a few) in bass clef now after about 3 months. So basically I went from 0 to maybe .5 in sight reading but it's a start.
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
[quote="BurckhardtS"]...
3. Tracking - Always keep your eyes tracking across the page, and DON'T read ahead. Specifically, I try not to read more than a beat at a time. I know people are taught to...[/quote]
I think I read about four bars ahead, mostly. I think I see the music as patterns much like reading sentences in text. If you are a good reader you recognize the pattern in the sentence and don't read every letter in each word. If I drop a page on the floor (has happened more than once) I'm not totally lost right away because I usually finish the phrase and that could be four bars, but of course it depends a lot on how complex the phrase is. It's not like photographic memory it's more like a good guess. I think I'm always mixing what I read with "guessing" when I read primavista and I'm rather successful actually.
/Tom
3. Tracking - Always keep your eyes tracking across the page, and DON'T read ahead. Specifically, I try not to read more than a beat at a time. I know people are taught to...[/quote]
I think I read about four bars ahead, mostly. I think I see the music as patterns much like reading sentences in text. If you are a good reader you recognize the pattern in the sentence and don't read every letter in each word. If I drop a page on the floor (has happened more than once) I'm not totally lost right away because I usually finish the phrase and that could be four bars, but of course it depends a lot on how complex the phrase is. It's not like photographic memory it's more like a good guess. I think I'm always mixing what I read with "guessing" when I read primavista and I'm rather successful actually.
/Tom
- afugate
- Posts: 671
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="jjs2877"]I'm in my mid-forties and have never taken a music class or played an instrument in my life. A few months ago, I decided to learn to read music and play instruments. Call it a mid-life crisis. And I basically learned like I would have when I was a kid. I bought flashcards. And then I made more with different combinations of notes. My sight reading is still pretty bad, but I started from 0 and can sight read simple tunes (in the keys I know, and obviously I only know a few) in bass clef now after about 3 months. So basically I went from 0 to maybe .5 in sight reading but it's a start.[/quote]
:good: :good: :good:
Bravo! This is quite the accomplishment.
--Andy in OKC
:good: :good: :good:
Bravo! This is quite the accomplishment.
--Andy in OKC
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
[quote="jjs2877"]I bought flashcards. And then I made more with different combinations of notes...[/quote]
When I think back to how I was taught to read in first grade, there wasn't much of the phonics stuff where you laboriously dissect a word into fragments. No, the teacher had flash cards and we were learning to recognize whole words at once.
I think there is more of a place for something like that in reading music than is usually encountered.
When I think back to how I was taught to read in first grade, there wasn't much of the phonics stuff where you laboriously dissect a word into fragments. No, the teacher had flash cards and we were learning to recognize whole words at once.
I think there is more of a place for something like that in reading music than is usually encountered.
- bigbandbone
- Posts: 602
- Joined: Jan 17, 2019
Back in the seventies I was struggling with sight reading. A friend (who was a great sight reader) suggested taking the Evelyn Wood Speed Reading course. I did, and my sight reading capabilities improved greatly!
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="BurckhardtS"]….
3. Tracking - Always keep your eyes tracking across the page, and DON'T read ahead. Specifically, I try not to read more than a beat at a time. I know people are taught to read a measure ahead, and that's probably okay for things that are not very complex. If you start seeing swing or latin syncopations, especially 16th patterns, good luck reading ahead by a whole measure. A lot of reading mistakes are caused by looking too far ahead and forgetting what you were playing (staying in the moment).
4. Don't stop!
….[/quote]
I’ll agree and disagree with this… I am a firm believer in reading as far ahead as you can… with this note, I’d say for these styles and your practice, this is how far ahead you are comfortable with. For each person, this will be different… and you have to be real, don’t read so far ahead that you make mistakes. Another tool to think about for this…transcription. If you are writing something out by hand; transcribing or transposing something… take a glance and write it out… can you do a whole bar? A line? A page? These are all things that can be practiced and improved. For me, my brain works very visually… when I take these in I have a visual memory of the placement on the page. Depending on my recent level of playing, I can “see” a different number of bars in my head.. right now I’m down quite a few, but the buffer can only increase by intentional thought and practice. But I recognize that is not the same for everybody.
Cheers,
Andy
3. Tracking - Always keep your eyes tracking across the page, and DON'T read ahead. Specifically, I try not to read more than a beat at a time. I know people are taught to read a measure ahead, and that's probably okay for things that are not very complex. If you start seeing swing or latin syncopations, especially 16th patterns, good luck reading ahead by a whole measure. A lot of reading mistakes are caused by looking too far ahead and forgetting what you were playing (staying in the moment).
4. Don't stop!
….[/quote]
I’ll agree and disagree with this… I am a firm believer in reading as far ahead as you can… with this note, I’d say for these styles and your practice, this is how far ahead you are comfortable with. For each person, this will be different… and you have to be real, don’t read so far ahead that you make mistakes. Another tool to think about for this…transcription. If you are writing something out by hand; transcribing or transposing something… take a glance and write it out… can you do a whole bar? A line? A page? These are all things that can be practiced and improved. For me, my brain works very visually… when I take these in I have a visual memory of the placement on the page. Depending on my recent level of playing, I can “see” a different number of bars in my head.. right now I’m down quite a few, but the buffer can only increase by intentional thought and practice. But I recognize that is not the same for everybody.
Cheers,
Andy
- baileyman
- Posts: 1169
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
On intonation, Sam Burtis said something like, In a good section on the held notes you'll see everyone snick their slide around to find the tune. Snick, snick, snick.
I hardly ever see anyone do that. As if a note is in tune at a specific position all the time.
I hardly ever see anyone do that. As if a note is in tune at a specific position all the time.
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="robcat2075"]<QUOTE author="jjs2877" post_id="187231" time="1661452218" user_id="15635">
I bought flashcards. And then I made more with different combinations of notes...[/quote]
When I think back to how I was taught to read in first grade, there wasn't much of the phonics stuff where you laboriously dissect a word into fragments. No, the teacher had flash cards and we were learning to recognize whole words at once.
</QUOTE>
Careful, talking about phonics is equivalent to religion or politics.
I always assumed kids learned by putting letters together and sounding them out, until I had children of my own. They clearly did not do that, although eventually they learned how. They recognized words at sight and were fluent readers long before that point. My tentative conclusion was that probably some kids need a phonics approach and others are better off without.
We did read to them constantly when they were little, so maybe that had something to do with it.
I bought flashcards. And then I made more with different combinations of notes...[/quote]
When I think back to how I was taught to read in first grade, there wasn't much of the phonics stuff where you laboriously dissect a word into fragments. No, the teacher had flash cards and we were learning to recognize whole words at once.
</QUOTE>
Careful, talking about phonics is equivalent to religion or politics.
I always assumed kids learned by putting letters together and sounding them out, until I had children of my own. They clearly did not do that, although eventually they learned how. They recognized words at sight and were fluent readers long before that point. My tentative conclusion was that probably some kids need a phonics approach and others are better off without.
We did read to them constantly when they were little, so maybe that had something to do with it.
- Richard3rd
- Posts: 77
- Joined: Dec 12, 2020
I've know many bad sight readers. I've asked them if they have the beats going in the back of their head all the time. They had no idea that existed and couldn't do it. I asked them if they penciled in down beats in difficult sections to reinforce that. They had no idea about doing that and were too lazy to start. They continually guessed at patterns and fell apart during performances. I eventually let them go from my bands. I've always been very good at sight reading. When I had trouble, I stopped, analyzed, sketched, worked with it and rarely had that happen again. Sight reading, like many skills reflect inherent talents. Can you hear the beat? Can you hear the pitch? If not, you have to work extra hard.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
[quote="timothy42b"]Careful, talking about phonics is equivalent to religion or politics.
I always assumed kids learned by putting letters together and sounding them out, until I had children of my own. They clearly did not do that, although eventually they learned how. They recognized words at sight and were fluent readers long before that point. My tentative conclusion was that probably some kids need a phonics approach and others are better off without.[/quote]
We did get phonics in our school... in later grades when the words got longer and too many to flash card. Phonics is a necessary skill but I feel like jump-starting the learning with flash cards at the early stage was a useful thing.
That is frequently cited as a prime indicator of whether a child will learn to read well. My mother read Dr. Seuss and "Peanuts" books to me.
I can't think of a likely-to-happen similar scenario for reading music however.
Hard-core Suzuki classes have the parents attend and play along side with their children... but they are playing by ear.
I always assumed kids learned by putting letters together and sounding them out, until I had children of my own. They clearly did not do that, although eventually they learned how. They recognized words at sight and were fluent readers long before that point. My tentative conclusion was that probably some kids need a phonics approach and others are better off without.[/quote]
We did get phonics in our school... in later grades when the words got longer and too many to flash card. Phonics is a necessary skill but I feel like jump-starting the learning with flash cards at the early stage was a useful thing.
We did read to them constantly when they were little, so maybe that had something to do with it.
That is frequently cited as a prime indicator of whether a child will learn to read well. My mother read Dr. Seuss and "Peanuts" books to me.
I can't think of a likely-to-happen similar scenario for reading music however.
Hard-core Suzuki classes have the parents attend and play along side with their children... but they are playing by ear.
- dbwhitaker
- Posts: 196
- Joined: May 16, 2019
My local community college band leader gives this advice:
* do a little bit of sight reading every day
* focus on music that you can play about 95% correctly (i.e. find music that isn't too difficult for your skill level)
* do a little bit of sight reading every day
* focus on music that you can play about 95% correctly (i.e. find music that isn't too difficult for your skill level)
- VJOFan
- Posts: 529
- Joined: Apr 06, 2018
Reading is at the height of debate again and the pendulum is about to swing again. Robert's description of his learning to read is what was called the "whole word" approach. That eventually developed into the whole language where the flashcards were thrown out and kids were just read to and given lots of things to read- works for kids who have the background or wiring to crack the code themselves.
Think about how that would go with music. Don't explain how the staff works, don't talk directly about the letter names of notes or rhythmic values. Just play music while the student watches you and the notes. Then they play it back. Some kids would learn it, but others would find ways to make the sounds without actually reading. A few weeks in, whatever they were doing would stop working so well.
The thing that peer reviewed, well structured research has shown is that systematic, explicit and responsive instruction works for what is close to all kids. (dyslexic, mild learning disabilities, kids with school-advantageous brain wiring)
At the same time all techniques and methods have their effectiveness. I know in music I have benefitted from a "whole word" style of thinking. There are rhythmic figures and scale and chord shapes that I just don't have to process as labouriously as patterns that are more novel to me. But I guarantee that I am still seeing and processing each black smudge on the page at some level. (Proof? Anecdotally, I know which note in a scale or chord pattern I missed if I mess up in sight reading or what part of the rhythm I misplaced.)
Think about how that would go with music. Don't explain how the staff works, don't talk directly about the letter names of notes or rhythmic values. Just play music while the student watches you and the notes. Then they play it back. Some kids would learn it, but others would find ways to make the sounds without actually reading. A few weeks in, whatever they were doing would stop working so well.
The thing that peer reviewed, well structured research has shown is that systematic, explicit and responsive instruction works for what is close to all kids. (dyslexic, mild learning disabilities, kids with school-advantageous brain wiring)
At the same time all techniques and methods have their effectiveness. I know in music I have benefitted from a "whole word" style of thinking. There are rhythmic figures and scale and chord shapes that I just don't have to process as labouriously as patterns that are more novel to me. But I guarantee that I am still seeing and processing each black smudge on the page at some level. (Proof? Anecdotally, I know which note in a scale or chord pattern I missed if I mess up in sight reading or what part of the rhythm I misplaced.)
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
It will always be possible to predict a science-fiction dystopic outcome for a process, especially if we imagine the first step was all there was to it, or if we discard the first step entirely.
- Wilktone
- Posts: 720
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
Here’s a link to a relevant research based discussion. What the specific study found is that musical knowledge, improvisation, and aural skills were associated with better sight reading.
<LINK_TEXT text="https://bulletproofmusician.com/are-gre ... ght%20read">https://bulletproofmusician.com/are-great-sight-readers-born-or-made/?highlight=Sight%20read</LINK_TEXT>
<LINK_TEXT text="https://bulletproofmusician.com/are-gre ... ght%20read">https://bulletproofmusician.com/are-great-sight-readers-born-or-made/?highlight=Sight%20read</LINK_TEXT>
- JacobsianApostle
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Mar 04, 2022
All good stuff in here but that’s the first mention I think I’ve seen of aural skills in this thread. To sight read well you have to convert the notes on the page into sound before you play them. I was lucky to have a lot of reading experience in high school so I was already a better than average sight reader, but my reading improved tremendously once I began weekly rehearsals in an amateur choir reading mostly renaissance music. Singing really forces the issue of hearing the entrances and intervals before you play them.
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
[quote="JacobsianApostle"]...
I was lucky to have a lot of reading experience in high school so I was already a better than average sight reader, but my reading improved tremendously once I began weekly rehearsals in an amateur choir reading mostly renaissance music. Singing really forces the issue of hearing the entrances and intervals before you play them.[/quote]
Yes, to sing in a choire is great because then as you practice to sing from the sheet music you do the same in your head when you play your instrument. You know what it will sound like before you play it. I've been singing in choires my whole life and it probably has helped me a lot, I still do every Wednesday.
/Tom
I was lucky to have a lot of reading experience in high school so I was already a better than average sight reader, but my reading improved tremendously once I began weekly rehearsals in an amateur choir reading mostly renaissance music. Singing really forces the issue of hearing the entrances and intervals before you play them.[/quote]
Yes, to sing in a choire is great because then as you practice to sing from the sheet music you do the same in your head when you play your instrument. You know what it will sound like before you play it. I've been singing in choires my whole life and it probably has helped me a lot, I still do every Wednesday.
/Tom
- Tomingoode
- Posts: 28
- Joined: Nov 05, 2022
[quote="robcat2075"]I would nominate "sight reading" as the most under-taught of the desirable musical skills.
Next would be "intonation".
"Following a conductor" might be in there also.[/quote]
I have to agree with you on all counts. I think back to my instruction as a young trombone student, and intonation and sight reading were not even on the list of things to be taught. Even up thru high school and college those things never appeared on the list. It was just assumed that you would figure it out on your own. And with the people I had occasion to play music with, some did and some didn't. For my own part sight reading has always been a challenge but I am getting better at it. And intonation, well as a returning player, its getting there. At least if I understand the definition of the word as its being used here. Can you perhaps offer a brief description of what is meant by that here?
Oh and btw, I went and listened to your video of clip of low Cs roasting on an open fire and that was really nicely played. Really sweet sound you have.
Following the conductor is usually harped on enough in most group situations that people eventually learn to do it, but it surely doesn't come naturally to most of us lol. But how much time in rehearsals is wasted because people won't pay attention to He Who Must Be Obeyed? :)
Next would be "intonation".
"Following a conductor" might be in there also.[/quote]
I have to agree with you on all counts. I think back to my instruction as a young trombone student, and intonation and sight reading were not even on the list of things to be taught. Even up thru high school and college those things never appeared on the list. It was just assumed that you would figure it out on your own. And with the people I had occasion to play music with, some did and some didn't. For my own part sight reading has always been a challenge but I am getting better at it. And intonation, well as a returning player, its getting there. At least if I understand the definition of the word as its being used here. Can you perhaps offer a brief description of what is meant by that here?
Oh and btw, I went and listened to your video of clip of low Cs roasting on an open fire and that was really nicely played. Really sweet sound you have.
Following the conductor is usually harped on enough in most group situations that people eventually learn to do it, but it surely doesn't come naturally to most of us lol. But how much time in rehearsals is wasted because people won't pay attention to He Who Must Be Obeyed? :)
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="Tomingoode"]He Who Must Be Obeyed? :)[/quote]
Or (S)He Who Must Be Obeyed? :)
Or (S)He Who Must Be Obeyed? :)
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
[quote="Tomingoode"]... And intonation, well as a returning player, its getting there. At least if I understand the definition of the word as its being used here. Can you perhaps offer a brief description of what is meant by that here?[/quote]
For brief, I can't argue with the dictionary definition...
But brief treatments are the problem... not enough explanation.
At the most basic level it is about agreement in unison pitch... is everyone who is fingering an E flat actually outputting the same frequency or close enough to it that it's not a raucous noise? Can the players at least hear and correct for that narrow problem? If you could just fix that much, most public school ensembles would sound 100% better.
Beyond that we have the issue of how different pitches should be placed in relation to each other to create a good result. There is an ideal for things like the simultaneous notes in a major chord or the consecutive notes of a melody.
These things can be taught and learned by hearing good examples, knowing that they are good examples and working to imitate those good examples.
Hearing, knowing, imitating... that is the basis for nearly all music learning.
And it just so happens that there is a self-study method that endeavors to teach you accurate intonation in that very manner... The Intonation Repair Tool, which is now free at this thread:
[url]https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?p=181044#p181044
It includes a booklet that explains the premise of what they are presenting and how to use the audio tracks in that pursuit.
Don't skip that booklet!
For brief, I can't argue with the dictionary definition...
accuracy of pitch in playing [an instrument] or singing,
But brief treatments are the problem... not enough explanation.
At the most basic level it is about agreement in unison pitch... is everyone who is fingering an E flat actually outputting the same frequency or close enough to it that it's not a raucous noise? Can the players at least hear and correct for that narrow problem? If you could just fix that much, most public school ensembles would sound 100% better.
Beyond that we have the issue of how different pitches should be placed in relation to each other to create a good result. There is an ideal for things like the simultaneous notes in a major chord or the consecutive notes of a melody.
These things can be taught and learned by hearing good examples, knowing that they are good examples and working to imitate those good examples.
Hearing, knowing, imitating... that is the basis for nearly all music learning.
And it just so happens that there is a self-study method that endeavors to teach you accurate intonation in that very manner... The Intonation Repair Tool, which is now free at this thread:
It includes a booklet that explains the premise of what they are presenting and how to use the audio tracks in that pursuit.
Don't skip that booklet!
- Tomingoode
- Posts: 28
- Joined: Nov 05, 2022
Thanks for the link Robert and for your insight. I may be a good example of the product of a small school system (relatively speaking) where not much emphasis was put on teaching of the instruments to those of us in the band. We were mostly left to figure things out on our own and while some did, many didn't, apparently me being one of those that didn't. A bit more guidance and instruction then would have saved me an enormous amount of unlearning bad habits and relearning how to do things properly today.
I was fortunate enough either by genetic makeup or by having musically inclined parents that exposed me to real music from an early age to have good relative pitch. The problem comes for me when you are in a large group of people each playing in their own key, so to speak, do you play what your ear tells you is correct or play what everyone else is playing even if its wrong? Either way it sounds bad...I think you understand my question here. What do you do personally in this situation? I would think that we would play what our ear tells us is correct even if its off from what we hear from those around us.
I was fortunate enough either by genetic makeup or by having musically inclined parents that exposed me to real music from an early age to have good relative pitch. The problem comes for me when you are in a large group of people each playing in their own key, so to speak, do you play what your ear tells you is correct or play what everyone else is playing even if its wrong? Either way it sounds bad...I think you understand my question here. What do you do personally in this situation? I would think that we would play what our ear tells us is correct even if its off from what we hear from those around us.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
[quote="Tomingoode"]...The problem comes for me when you are in a large group of people each playing in their own key, so to speak, do you play what your ear tells you is correct or play what everyone else is playing even if its wrong?[/quote]
How about getting out and finding a better group? But if you can't do that...
Are you influential enough to coax them over to your pitch?
The choir at my college had very good intonation, unusually good for a large choir. When I took the director's "choral conducting" class, all he said about intonation was that he would put a weaker singer between two better ones. But this presumes there are more goods than bads in the ensemble.
If you're not influential, if you can't teach them, join them. At least you'll be off together.
I've never been in a group where the people who were out-of-tune were all out-of-tune in the same way so it's not like there was any particular place to go meet them.
How about getting out and finding a better group? But if you can't do that...
Are you influential enough to coax them over to your pitch?
The choir at my college had very good intonation, unusually good for a large choir. When I took the director's "choral conducting" class, all he said about intonation was that he would put a weaker singer between two better ones. But this presumes there are more goods than bads in the ensemble.
If you're not influential, if you can't teach them, join them. At least you'll be off together.
I've never been in a group where the people who were out-of-tune were all out-of-tune in the same way so it's not like there was any particular place to go meet them.
- Tomingoode
- Posts: 28
- Joined: Nov 05, 2022
Its been an interesting journey for me Bob, or do you prefer Robert? I have sung with a few different groups in my life some were amazingly good and some pretty dreadful. I spent a number of years in a church choir as a tenor with little vocal experience placed between a tenor that was perhaps the finest tenor I have known ever and standing on the other side of me was this other guy who couldn't carry a tune in a bucket. There I learned to discern true pitch because there was an 'anchor' pitch to my right that was always 'on' and the one on my left was nearly never on. So on the rare occasions when my own sense of pitch was off there was a reference to my right to latch on to and Bill was a huge help in that regard. He helped my development as a tenor-in-training :) as much as anyone I have associated with so far. The problem I wrestled with mightily early on was getting pulled off pitch by the guy to my left because he would often sing loud enough to drown out the very pitch references I needed to hear in order to stay on pitch myself. I think though as we develop as musicians and gain confidence in our instrument, whether its as a vocalist or trombonist or pick your instrument our sense of pitch improves by repeated exposure to music and our own attempts to tune ourselves to it. I am better at that now than I was even 5 years ago.
I'm fortunate enough now to sing with a choir that has basically all good solid voices that understand the concept of blending with one another and they all have a good sense of pitch. I am finding that its harder maintaining pitch control with the horn than it is with the voice, partly because I haven't been doing that kind of musical work for a long time and as a newly returned player I am struggling with some of the basics. I remember notes and positions like the back of my hand and can hear when they are off, but the muscle memory to nail them every time I play a given note is not there anymore. I am relearning how to ride that bicycle lol.
I'm fortunate enough now to sing with a choir that has basically all good solid voices that understand the concept of blending with one another and they all have a good sense of pitch. I am finding that its harder maintaining pitch control with the horn than it is with the voice, partly because I haven't been doing that kind of musical work for a long time and as a newly returned player I am struggling with some of the basics. I remember notes and positions like the back of my hand and can hear when they are off, but the muscle memory to nail them every time I play a given note is not there anymore. I am relearning how to ride that bicycle lol.
- Tomingoode
- Posts: 28
- Joined: Nov 05, 2022
I recently signed on with a community band where I live and there are some really good musicians in the group. I know my exposure to that group will grow me as a musician and I expect to have a lot of fun with it. Its something on the order of 65-70 piece band that features a full complement of brass and woodwinds. I have heard is a certain lack of uniformity of pitch while we are practicing even after warmup and tuning up. Can't quite put my finger on where the discord is coming from. Trumpets sit right behind the trombones so we frequently have someone playing loudly in one or both ears and makes discerning where the source of the discord is coming from difficult. It may be coming from within our own section, God forbid. :) I know in this environment where I am struggling a bit to keep up anyway, fighting this pitch inconsistency that I am hearing is not helping me and I understand I am somewhat behind the 8 ball myself just due to lack of recent experience with the instrument and rusty mechanics and all of the issues a returning player might face. At any rate I don't want to contribute to the imprecision in the correct pitch within the group and until I get a better handle on what I am doing with my own horn, I'm sure not pointing fingers at anyone else.
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="Tomingoode"]
The problem comes for me when you are in a large group of people each playing in their own key, so to speak, do you play what your ear tells you is correct or play what everyone else is playing even if its wrong? Either way it sounds bad...[/quote]
Some years back I was playing with a decent community band, but that year there was a good bit of pitch instability, and it varied greatly from section to section. I was trying to play in tune, but when trumpets had the lead the pitch was miles away from when the woodwinds had it, and I was chasing it trying to fit, and wearing out my chops quickly. One of the other trombones, an experienced player and one of only three people I've heard in person with solid double Bb's, said "Tim you're part of the problem. Don't chase the wrong pitch, insist on the right pitch." (the other two people are forum members here)
The problem comes for me when you are in a large group of people each playing in their own key, so to speak, do you play what your ear tells you is correct or play what everyone else is playing even if its wrong? Either way it sounds bad...[/quote]
Some years back I was playing with a decent community band, but that year there was a good bit of pitch instability, and it varied greatly from section to section. I was trying to play in tune, but when trumpets had the lead the pitch was miles away from when the woodwinds had it, and I was chasing it trying to fit, and wearing out my chops quickly. One of the other trombones, an experienced player and one of only three people I've heard in person with solid double Bb's, said "Tim you're part of the problem. Don't chase the wrong pitch, insist on the right pitch." (the other two people are forum members here)
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
An equal-temperament piano is rigorously imperfect but if you are going to play with one you need to match it instead of trying to teach it a lesson.
- Tomingoode
- Posts: 28
- Joined: Nov 05, 2022
[quote="robcat2075"]An equal-temperament piano is rigorously imperfect but if you are going to play with one you need to match it instead of trying to teach it a lesson.[/quote]
Bob, does anyone actually make an equal tempered piano at this point? I was under the impression, perhaps mistakenly, virtually all pianos were tuned to the tempered scale now.
Bob, does anyone actually make an equal tempered piano at this point? I was under the impression, perhaps mistakenly, virtually all pianos were tuned to the tempered scale now.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Hmmmmm
perhaps mistakenly
perhaps mistakenly
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
[quote="Tomingoode"]Bob,[/quote]
It's Robert :clever:
"Tempered" can mean a lot of things. There are numerous varieties of tempered tunings, meaning they depart from pure "just" tuning,.
Consider this partial list of options in "Chromatia Tuner"
<ATTACHMENT filename="Temps.jpg" index="0">[attachment=0]Temps.jpg</ATTACHMENT>
BTW, the Intonation Repair Tool teaches just tuning for its easy-to-hear simple pitch ratios.
Just tuning is impossible to maintain beyond one tonality on a keyboard instrument, however.
So... 12-tone equal-temperament, where the frequency of each half-step increments by the 12th root of 2, is the modern standard compromise tuning for fixed-pitch keyboard instruments. It would be rare to encounter a piano today that its tuner had not aspired to create 12-tone equal temperament.
There is something called "stretch" that piano tuners do that departs from exact equal temperament, perhaps that is what you meant.
It's Robert :clever:
does anyone actually make an equal tempered piano at this point? I was under the impression, perhaps mistakenly, virtually all pianos were tuned to the tempered scale now.
"Tempered" can mean a lot of things. There are numerous varieties of tempered tunings, meaning they depart from pure "just" tuning,.
Consider this partial list of options in "Chromatia Tuner"
<ATTACHMENT filename="Temps.jpg" index="0">
BTW, the Intonation Repair Tool teaches just tuning for its easy-to-hear simple pitch ratios.
Just tuning is impossible to maintain beyond one tonality on a keyboard instrument, however.
So... 12-tone equal-temperament, where the frequency of each half-step increments by the 12th root of 2, is the modern standard compromise tuning for fixed-pitch keyboard instruments. It would be rare to encounter a piano today that its tuner had not aspired to create 12-tone equal temperament.
There is something called "stretch" that piano tuners do that departs from exact equal temperament, perhaps that is what you meant.
- GabrielRice
- Posts: 1496
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
When I play with piano I still tune with an awareness of tonality. In other words, if I'm sitting on the third of a major chord, I'm shading it a little low. Probably not as low as I would if I were an inner voice of a trombone quartet, but low enough that it sounds right to me.
I am firmly in the camp of trusting my ears over any visual tuner or exact mathematics. Tuning is always relative.
But back to sight-reading...the number one priority is rhythm. A wrong note in the correct rhythm is fleeting and often not even noticed. Playing in a rest is ALWAYS noticed. Work on your rhythmic skills diligently and your sight reading will improve.
You might be surprised at the ages of some of the students I give this book: <LINK_TEXT text="https://www.alfred.com/101-rhythmic-res ... 0-EL00557/">https://www.alfred.com/101-rhythmic-rest-patterns/p/00-EL00557/</LINK_TEXT>
It's always useful to work on a skill at its most fundamental elements, and this book does exactly that.
I am firmly in the camp of trusting my ears over any visual tuner or exact mathematics. Tuning is always relative.
But back to sight-reading...the number one priority is rhythm. A wrong note in the correct rhythm is fleeting and often not even noticed. Playing in a rest is ALWAYS noticed. Work on your rhythmic skills diligently and your sight reading will improve.
You might be surprised at the ages of some of the students I give this book: <LINK_TEXT text="https://www.alfred.com/101-rhythmic-res ... 0-EL00557/">https://www.alfred.com/101-rhythmic-rest-patterns/p/00-EL00557/</LINK_TEXT>
It's always useful to work on a skill at its most fundamental elements, and this book does exactly that.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
Everyone in tomingoode's problem ensemble is already "trusting their ear".
How's that working out for them?
How's that working out for them?
- GabrielRice
- Posts: 1496
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="robcat2075"]Everyone in tomingoode's problem ensemble is already "trusting their ear".
How's that working out for them?[/quote]
That's not what I get from his description at all.
How's that working out for them?[/quote]
That's not what I get from his description at all.
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="Tomingoode"]<QUOTE author="robcat2075" post_id="193498" time="1668367180" user_id="3697">
An equal-temperament piano is rigorously imperfect but if you are going to play with one you need to match it instead of trying to teach it a lesson.[/quote]
Bob, does anyone actually make an equal tempered piano at this point? I was under the impression, perhaps mistakenly, virtually all pianos were tuned to the tempered scale now.
</QUOTE>
As I understand it, tuners attempt to have the piano sound like ET, with varying degrees of skill (and some problems with individual pianos.)
There is a respected tuner in the midwest who believes a lot of tuners actually tune to Reverse Well by mistake. He tunes to a non-ET by preference if the owner likes it, something like EVBT, an acronym I don't recall.
Here's a link to 6 pages of discussion on a Piano Technician forum: <LINK_TEXT text="https://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads ... 183/1.html">https://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/1462183/1.html</LINK_TEXT>
An equal-temperament piano is rigorously imperfect but if you are going to play with one you need to match it instead of trying to teach it a lesson.[/quote]
Bob, does anyone actually make an equal tempered piano at this point? I was under the impression, perhaps mistakenly, virtually all pianos were tuned to the tempered scale now.
</QUOTE>
As I understand it, tuners attempt to have the piano sound like ET, with varying degrees of skill (and some problems with individual pianos.)
There is a respected tuner in the midwest who believes a lot of tuners actually tune to Reverse Well by mistake. He tunes to a non-ET by preference if the owner likes it, something like EVBT, an acronym I don't recall.
Here's a link to 6 pages of discussion on a Piano Technician forum: <LINK_TEXT text="https://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads ... 183/1.html">https://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/1462183/1.html</LINK_TEXT>
- Tomingoode
- Posts: 28
- Joined: Nov 05, 2022
[quote="robcat2075"]<QUOTE author="Tomingoode" post_id="193504" time="1668371702" user_id="15882">
Bob,[/quote]
It's Robert :clever:
"Tempered" can mean a lot of things. There are numerous varieties of tempered tunings, meaning they depart from pure "just" tuning,.
Consider this partial list of options in "Chromatia Tuner"
Temps.jpg
BTW, the Intonation Repair Tool teaches just tuning for its easy-to-hear simple pitch ratios.
Just tuning is impossible to maintain beyond one tonality on a keyboard instrument, however.
So... 12-tone equal-temperament, where the frequency of each half-step increments by the 12th root of 2, is the modern standard compromise tuning for fixed-pitch keyboard instruments. It would be rare to encounter a piano today that its tuner had not aspired to create 12-tone equal temperament.
There is something called "stretch" that piano tuners do that departs from exact equal temperament, perhaps that is what you meant.
</QUOTE>
My apologies Robert...I did ask what you preferred in a previous post and either didn't see your answer or didn't get one to my question. Now I know. No disrespect intended. And on the variations in tempering, I was aware there were a few choices for how the scales were tempered but had no clue there were as many as your posting indicates. I read with amusement your comment about most piano tuners aspiring to create 12 tone even temperment. In this area, there are only a couple of people who are competent to my knowledge. This information is second hand from my voice teacher who also teaches piano. She is blessed or cursed, depending on your view, with perfect pitch, so her opinion I take to be valid at least in regard to the piano tuning talent locally.
can you explain this concept of 'stretch'?
Bob,[/quote]
It's Robert :clever:
does anyone actually make an equal tempered piano at this point? I was under the impression, perhaps mistakenly, virtually all pianos were tuned to the tempered scale now.
"Tempered" can mean a lot of things. There are numerous varieties of tempered tunings, meaning they depart from pure "just" tuning,.
Consider this partial list of options in "Chromatia Tuner"
Temps.jpg
BTW, the Intonation Repair Tool teaches just tuning for its easy-to-hear simple pitch ratios.
Just tuning is impossible to maintain beyond one tonality on a keyboard instrument, however.
So... 12-tone equal-temperament, where the frequency of each half-step increments by the 12th root of 2, is the modern standard compromise tuning for fixed-pitch keyboard instruments. It would be rare to encounter a piano today that its tuner had not aspired to create 12-tone equal temperament.
There is something called "stretch" that piano tuners do that departs from exact equal temperament, perhaps that is what you meant.
</QUOTE>
My apologies Robert...I did ask what you preferred in a previous post and either didn't see your answer or didn't get one to my question. Now I know. No disrespect intended. And on the variations in tempering, I was aware there were a few choices for how the scales were tempered but had no clue there were as many as your posting indicates. I read with amusement your comment about most piano tuners aspiring to create 12 tone even temperment. In this area, there are only a couple of people who are competent to my knowledge. This information is second hand from my voice teacher who also teaches piano. She is blessed or cursed, depending on your view, with perfect pitch, so her opinion I take to be valid at least in regard to the piano tuning talent locally.
can you explain this concept of 'stretch'?
- Tomingoode
- Posts: 28
- Joined: Nov 05, 2022
[quote="GabrielRice"]<QUOTE author="robcat2075" post_id="193517" time="1668383906" user_id="3697">
Everyone in tomingoode's problem ensemble is already "trusting their ear".
How's that working out for them?[/quote]
That's not what I get from his description at all.
</QUOTE>
I think what is happening is they aren't listening hard enough either during tune up or as things warm up during the session they arent compensating for the slight shifts that occur to the state of tune as the temperature/humidity change. I don't have a feel for how much of a shift temperature and humidity have on woodwinds but I suspect on brass instruments its quite measurable. I know string instruments are very sensitive to those changes from personal experience. Or maybe they just arent listening at all? I know its pretty easy to pull pitch one way or the other on a trombone without ever changing slide position but I cant speak for other wind instruments since I don't have any experience with them. So the trombone section can compensate or fail to compensate depending on your view...for pitch inaccuracy by people playing other instruments. How much pitch bend can you get say on a saxophone or clarinet? My gut tells me that it isnt much, but my gut has been way wrong before. Anybody got an idea?
Everyone in tomingoode's problem ensemble is already "trusting their ear".
How's that working out for them?[/quote]
That's not what I get from his description at all.
</QUOTE>
I think what is happening is they aren't listening hard enough either during tune up or as things warm up during the session they arent compensating for the slight shifts that occur to the state of tune as the temperature/humidity change. I don't have a feel for how much of a shift temperature and humidity have on woodwinds but I suspect on brass instruments its quite measurable. I know string instruments are very sensitive to those changes from personal experience. Or maybe they just arent listening at all? I know its pretty easy to pull pitch one way or the other on a trombone without ever changing slide position but I cant speak for other wind instruments since I don't have any experience with them. So the trombone section can compensate or fail to compensate depending on your view...for pitch inaccuracy by people playing other instruments. How much pitch bend can you get say on a saxophone or clarinet? My gut tells me that it isnt much, but my gut has been way wrong before. Anybody got an idea?
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Piano pitch stretch refers to the fact that it sounds better if the top end is a little sharp and the bottom end is a little flat. It's partly an idiosyncrasy of metal string vibration characteristics and the need to tune partly to harmonics, not only fundamentals.
You can often hear exactly the same thing within a saxophone section, or even within a whole band, where there is a slight discrepancy in pitch between the lowest instruments and the highest, but it sounds good, and correct, that way.
This has strayed a long way from the "sightreading" topic.
You can often hear exactly the same thing within a saxophone section, or even within a whole band, where there is a slight discrepancy in pitch between the lowest instruments and the highest, but it sounds good, and correct, that way.
This has strayed a long way from the "sightreading" topic.
- GabrielRice
- Posts: 1496
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Doug Elliott"]This has strayed a long way from the "sightreading" topic.[/quote]
In my professional world it's a problem if somebody can't sight read in tune. <span class="emoji" title=":wink:">😉</span>
In my professional world it's a problem if somebody can't sight read in tune. <span class="emoji" title=":wink:">😉</span>
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
My horns were all tuned at the factory
:tongue:
:tongue:
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
[quote="Doug Elliott"]Piano pitch stretch refers to the fact that it sounds better if the top end is a little sharp and the bottom end is a little flat. It's partly an idiosyncrasy of metal string vibration characteristics and the need to tune partly to harmonics, not only fundamentals.[/quote]
Not helping with the straying here, I realize, but FWIW:
Inharmonicity in piano strings is super high - high stiffness, overwinding, etc. But the same techniques work well on harpsichords where technically there isn't anything like the same inharmonicity issue. In the bass I mostly tune for a beatless internal major third (i.e. 5th and 10th partials). It's a tone color thing - I was doing it long before I knew that was what I was doing. I only thought about it because I couldn't work out why I disliked the sound of some other people's otherwise competent tunings (often they're comparing 5ths - 12th vs 6th partials), and why tuning fundamentals to a machine dial gave particularly ugly results.
Not helping with the straying here, I realize, but FWIW:
Inharmonicity in piano strings is super high - high stiffness, overwinding, etc. But the same techniques work well on harpsichords where technically there isn't anything like the same inharmonicity issue. In the bass I mostly tune for a beatless internal major third (i.e. 5th and 10th partials). It's a tone color thing - I was doing it long before I knew that was what I was doing. I only thought about it because I couldn't work out why I disliked the sound of some other people's otherwise competent tunings (often they're comparing 5ths - 12th vs 6th partials), and why tuning fundamentals to a machine dial gave particularly ugly results.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
Stretch...
There is a study out there which tested capable musicians on how much stretch sharpening and flattening was needed to sound "right" to them. They were all over the map on that. A few outliers seemed to not want any. I had previously thought the stretch was something that could be objectively prescribed and agreed on ("overtones" and all that) but, no, it is very subject to the whims and fancies of the listener.
[url=https://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/1928521/re-variations-in-stretched-tuning.html#Post1928521]From a piano forum, piano technician asserts this (possibly true? :idk: ) "well-known" fact...
Other commenters in that thread offer variations on the hypothesis.
I would be curious to see a survey of what the stretch is in various classic recordings. Has the practice changed over time?
There is a study out there which tested capable musicians on how much stretch sharpening and flattening was needed to sound "right" to them. They were all over the map on that. A few outliers seemed to not want any. I had previously thought the stretch was something that could be objectively prescribed and agreed on ("overtones" and all that) but, no, it is very subject to the whims and fancies of the listener.
It is a well known fact from numerous studies that as we age, higher pitched tones are percieved as flatter in comparison to what they were thought to be earlier on in life. Along with this, we also lose the ability to hear frequencies in the upper range (15-20 kHz) comparatively to earlier on in life.
I have had the tendancy as of late to go a good 5 cents or more sharp (aurally) than what my ETD (RCT 4 setting in stretch) would suggest for the highest octave. I tend to lean towards the ETD setting in most cases since I might be hearing these notes a bit flat compared to what I used to hear them as when I was younger. Part of this also has to do with "taste" in artificial stretch.
Other commenters in that thread offer variations on the hypothesis.
I would be curious to see a survey of what the stretch is in various classic recordings. Has the practice changed over time?
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
A piano tuner is working with an individual piano and its own idiosyncrasies of inharmicity in the strings. And the tuner's own ears.
Another piano may very well need a different amount of stretch to resolve its own idiosyncrasies. And as heard by another set of ears.
Stretch needed "to sound right" in other situations or combinations of instruments is probably at least somewhhat different.
Another piano may very well need a different amount of stretch to resolve its own idiosyncrasies. And as heard by another set of ears.
Stretch needed "to sound right" in other situations or combinations of instruments is probably at least somewhhat different.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
[quote="Tomingoode"]<QUOTE author="GabrielRice" post_id="193531" time="1668387744" user_id="102">
That's not what I get from his description at all.[/quote]
I think what is happening is they aren't listening hard enough either during tune up or as things warm up during the session...</QUOTE>
But they don't know they aren't listening hard enough. They are trusting their ear. For better or for worse they are trusting their ear and until they hear something they can identify as not-good-enough they will stay with what they hear as being good enough.
I doubt any of them think his or her own intonation is a problem. They can hear themselves and they are satisfied with it. They are... trusting their ear.
Flutes have a fairly wide latitude. Oboes, so wide that it takes great skill to land the right pitch at all. Oboe players who can play in tune are rare creatures. There was much gnashing of teeth at my college when the one decent oboe player decided she was putting it aside to concentrate on her pre-vet major.
Saxes have wide latitude. Their typical jaw vibrato is probably wider than any pitch adjustment that might be needed in an ensemble.
With the same form factor for the mouthpiece, clarinets should be as free but... the window of what the embouchure can do and still produce a proper classical clarinet sound is quite narrow. Clarinet intonation is the downfall of most school and community bands. Most casual clarinet players have lazy embouchures so they are hopelessly flat. No amount of "pushing in" will save them.
However, those instruments can be played in tune in normal concert conditions.
But if those players are like me, no one has ever coached them on it beyond reciting a slogan... "You must learn to use your ear!" :clever:
That's not what I get from his description at all.[/quote]
I think what is happening is they aren't listening hard enough either during tune up or as things warm up during the session...</QUOTE>
But they don't know they aren't listening hard enough. They are trusting their ear. For better or for worse they are trusting their ear and until they hear something they can identify as not-good-enough they will stay with what they hear as being good enough.
I doubt any of them think his or her own intonation is a problem. They can hear themselves and they are satisfied with it. They are... trusting their ear.
So the trombone section can compensate or fail to compensate depending on your view...for pitch inaccuracy by people playing other instruments. How much pitch bend can you get say on a saxophone or clarinet? My gut tells me that it isnt much, but my gut has been way wrong before. Anybody got an idea?
Flutes have a fairly wide latitude. Oboes, so wide that it takes great skill to land the right pitch at all. Oboe players who can play in tune are rare creatures. There was much gnashing of teeth at my college when the one decent oboe player decided she was putting it aside to concentrate on her pre-vet major.
Saxes have wide latitude. Their typical jaw vibrato is probably wider than any pitch adjustment that might be needed in an ensemble.
With the same form factor for the mouthpiece, clarinets should be as free but... the window of what the embouchure can do and still produce a proper classical clarinet sound is quite narrow. Clarinet intonation is the downfall of most school and community bands. Most casual clarinet players have lazy embouchures so they are hopelessly flat. No amount of "pushing in" will save them.
However, those instruments can be played in tune in normal concert conditions.
But if those players are like me, no one has ever coached them on it beyond reciting a slogan... "You must learn to use your ear!" :clever:
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
[quote="Tomingoode"]And on the variations in tempering, I was aware there were a few choices for how the scales were tempered but had no clue there were as many as your posting indicates.[/quote]
Most of those are just curiosities today, but occasionally someone will do a Historically Informed recording of Bach keyboard works and use a special temperament. I'm not sure we know how Bach expected the "Well-Tempered Clavier" to be done although we know it wasn't equal temperament.
But everything on that list has some reason behind it, some problem they were deeming to be solved by it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werckmeister_temperament
Most of those are just curiosities today, but occasionally someone will do a Historically Informed recording of Bach keyboard works and use a special temperament. I'm not sure we know how Bach expected the "Well-Tempered Clavier" to be done although we know it wasn't equal temperament.
But everything on that list has some reason behind it, some problem they were deeming to be solved by it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werckmeister_temperament
- Tomingoode
- Posts: 28
- Joined: Nov 05, 2022
Robert, you offer interesting insights into the various instruments and the latitude they have with pitch on any given note. I remember being surprised at how much pitch bending could be done on the trombone even when playing notes in first position where the instrument supposedly was truly in tune and not depending on the player to fine tune a position to get the correct pitch. It may be my exposure to having to listen to for pitch accuracy as a young boy, especially in any position other than first that helped me have the reasonably well developed sense of pitch I have today. Not to say it cant be improved. :) I am reminded of a practice session a couple of months ago where I was using an electronic tuner to try to nail down normal concert Bb to play along with a recording I liked. And it was sooo easy to pull the note away from center of pitch the tuner would almost switch over to the next half step up or down before the horn moved far enough off to actually change to the next note in the series. I didn't expect to see such a graphic display of how far off center its possible to go. I'd guess that the higher up you go the lattitude as far as pitch bending is much less because the notes are so much closer together. I have not tried measuring those upper register notes to see how much bending is possible.
You were speaking of casual clarinet players as being hopelessly flat (paraphrase). What do they do to adjust their instrument for concert tuning? Is it reed adjustment? or do they have a means to lengthen or shorten the 'tube' that is their instrument? Never tried to play a clarinet, never wanted to, and so am totally ignorant of the mechanics involved.
You were speaking of casual clarinet players as being hopelessly flat (paraphrase). What do they do to adjust their instrument for concert tuning? Is it reed adjustment? or do they have a means to lengthen or shorten the 'tube' that is their instrument? Never tried to play a clarinet, never wanted to, and so am totally ignorant of the mechanics involved.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="Tomingoode"]...
You were speaking of casual clarinet players as being hopelessly flat (paraphrase). What do they do to adjust their instrument for concert tuning? Is it reed adjustment? or do they have a means to lengthen or shorten the 'tube' that is their instrument? Never tried to play a clarinet, never wanted to, and so am totally ignorant of the mechanics involved.[/quote]
There are two ways to adjust pitch on a clarinet (that I know of). The classic method of tuning is by adjusting the fitting between the barrel and first joint. A very small adjustment makes a big difference. Much like saxophone players move the mouthpiece on the neck cork.
The other way is to adjust the "bite" on the reed. This is a small adjustment and is sometimes used as a means to vibrato. We would call this "jaw vibrato". This is probably how the clarinet player adjust his pitch to the ensemble "on the fly".
I suppose increasing or decreasing the pressure on the air column would also cause a clarinet pitch to adjust.
You were speaking of casual clarinet players as being hopelessly flat (paraphrase). What do they do to adjust their instrument for concert tuning? Is it reed adjustment? or do they have a means to lengthen or shorten the 'tube' that is their instrument? Never tried to play a clarinet, never wanted to, and so am totally ignorant of the mechanics involved.[/quote]
There are two ways to adjust pitch on a clarinet (that I know of). The classic method of tuning is by adjusting the fitting between the barrel and first joint. A very small adjustment makes a big difference. Much like saxophone players move the mouthpiece on the neck cork.
The other way is to adjust the "bite" on the reed. This is a small adjustment and is sometimes used as a means to vibrato. We would call this "jaw vibrato". This is probably how the clarinet player adjust his pitch to the ensemble "on the fly".
I suppose increasing or decreasing the pressure on the air column would also cause a clarinet pitch to adjust.