Benge 165F / 190 F-attachment tubing

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2022-08-27 7:19 p.m.

I've heard the Benge 165F and 190 referred to as "souped-up" or "improved" King 4Bs. Among the purported disadvantages of the King 4B was that the F-attachment tubing was 0.547" I.D. instead of 0.562" as on the Conn 88H (and the somewhat small King valve). Due to their design (including a bigger valve), I think the Benges play more "open" than the King 4B. But are the Benge F-attachments also 0.547" I.D., or were they opened up to 0.562" ? [I don't have my Benge 165F at hand to measure.]

greenbean · by **greenbean** » 2022-08-27 7:36 p.m.

I can measure a 190F this evening…

Elow · by **Elow** » 2022-08-27 7:50 p.m.

I’ll measure my 165F tonight as well, i’m curious if the 190 and 165 have the same sized bores.

Crazy4Tbone86 · 2022-08-27 8:12 p.m.

Both the Benge 190F and the Benge 165F have .562 bore tubing in the valve sections. The difference between the two horns is the wrap design and the material used. On the 165F, all of the F-attachment tubing (inners, outers, bends and ferrules) are yellow brass. On the 190F, the F-attachment outer tuning slide straight tubes and the ferrules are nickel.

greenbean · by **greenbean** » 2022-08-27 9:07 p.m.

Yup, the bore is .563.

Is it established fact that the 4B has a .547-bore F-attachment?...

Crazy4Tbone86 · by **Crazy4Tbone86** » 2022-08-29 12:27 p.m.

[quote="greenbean"]Yup, the bore is .563.

Is it established fact that the 4B has a .547-bore F-attachment?...[/quote]

Oh yes.

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2022-08-29 1:51 p.m.

The .547 F-attachment in the 4B and 5B is because George McCracken designed them, and he believed that the attachment bore should match the slide bore. It's the same reason the 6B Duo Gravis has .562 valves.

greenbean · by **greenbean** » 2022-08-29 2:03 p.m.

[quote="Finetales"]The .547 F-attachment in the 4B and 5B is because George McCracken designed them, and he believed that the attachment bore should match the slide bore. It's the same reason the 6B Duo Gravis has .562 valves.[/quote]

Well, maybe he was onto something because every King horn I have played has had a great-blowing trigger range. I have always attributed it to the King valve.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2022-08-29 3:19 p.m.

[quote="greenbean"]<QUOTE author="Finetales" post_id="187502" time="1661795502" user_id="136">
The .547 F-attachment in the 4B and 5B is because George McCracken designed them, and he believed that the attachment bore should match the slide bore. It's the same reason the 6B Duo Gravis has .562 valves.[/quote]

Well, maybe he was onto something because every King horn I have played has had a great-blowing trigger range. I have always attributed it to the King valve.
</QUOTE>

I like the 6B Duo Gravis. It is a very special bass. Plays very well in the trigger range. Do you mean a 4B and 5B too have a great trigger range? I have tried several but felt they played weird and rather small, but then I did not experiment so much with the trigger notes. Just wondering?

/Tom

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2022-08-29 6:44 p.m.

[quote="Finetales"]The .547 F-attachment in the 4B and 5B is because George McCracken designed them, and he believed that the attachment bore should match the slide bore. It's the same reason the 6B Duo Gravis has .562 valves.[/quote]

The entire Benge trombone line was originally designed by Chuck Ward (McCracken's successor, I guess). [Stan Matras designed the 165 later on.]

Apparently Chuck felt that 0.547" bore was too small for the F-attachment of the Benge 190, so increased it to 0.562". That, with the larger King valve, made the 190 (and subsequently 165F) nice and free-blowing in their "trigger range."

Thanks for everyone's contributions to my original query.

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Benge 165F / 190 F-attachment tubing