College Degree Regrets
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
WaPo has an article on...
[url=https://wapo.st/3BjjfxA]The most-regretted (and lowest-paying) college majors (of 2021)
Article includes a chart of how various majors fared.
I'm not shocked that nearly half the arts majors have regrets but I'm surprised that more than a quarter of the STEM majors (the least-regretted majors) do also.
"Um, I didn't know math was going to be required." :shuffle:
Classic liberal arts degrees don't fare well.
But there's a bright side. My alma mater has been promoting the fact that only 20% of its graduates find work in their major field as proof of how flexible a liberal arts degree is. :clever:
Article includes a chart of how various majors fared.
I'm not shocked that nearly half the arts majors have regrets but I'm surprised that more than a quarter of the STEM majors (the least-regretted majors) do also.
"Um, I didn't know math was going to be required." :shuffle:
Classic liberal arts degrees don't fare well.
But there's a bright side. My alma mater has been promoting the fact that only 20% of its graduates find work in their major field as proof of how flexible a liberal arts degree is. :clever:
- CharlieB
- Posts: 434
- Joined: Mar 29, 2018
Wow !
That's not good.
The fact that such a high percentage of our work force is unhappy with their situation is a sad commentary on the state of our country.
That's not good.
The fact that such a high percentage of our work force is unhappy with their situation is a sad commentary on the state of our country.
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
I agree with CB. Lots of regrets about education and career choice. Sad, unfulfilling life?
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
At some point, we're going to have to square the circle that is that 1) students (largely) expect attending university to be vocational preparation and 2) universities aren't vocational prep. I recall a few years ago a set of open letters where a recent graduate was lamenting the former and a professor was refuting using the latter point, but I can't seem to recall enough keywords to find said letters.
Possibly, but being in my lower 30s, I think that my generation was largely heavily overpromised of exactly what an education would provide for you. At a certain point, it probably was a near certainty that you would have a reasonably comfortable life when 7% of the population had a degree, but now that almost half (37.5%) of the population has them.... it's hardly even a differentiator.
The fact that such a high percentage of our work force is unhappy with their situation is a sad commentary on the state of our country.
Possibly, but being in my lower 30s, I think that my generation was largely heavily overpromised of exactly what an education would provide for you. At a certain point, it probably was a near certainty that you would have a reasonably comfortable life when 7% of the population had a degree, but now that almost half (37.5%) of the population has them.... it's hardly even a differentiator.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
The problem as I see it is that there are few outlets for artists. This includes all of the performing and fine arts. We don't use a lot of musicians, but schools still pump out bushels of high quality performers into an area of little employment. Competition for the few positions is FIERCE. Only the top few percent can make a go of it.
Other degrees have "cheapened" as well. That shiny science degree only qualifies you to be a lab technician at $15 per hour (which used to be a nice wage 20 years ago but nowadays can barely cover living expenses in many parts of the US.
I think the solution to the problem is to make the jobs that a degree qualifies you for pay better so you can earn enough to pay off the loans. Also, we need to make majors with little opportunity be a lot rarer so the supply fits the demand.
Other degrees have "cheapened" as well. That shiny science degree only qualifies you to be a lab technician at $15 per hour (which used to be a nice wage 20 years ago but nowadays can barely cover living expenses in many parts of the US.
I think the solution to the problem is to make the jobs that a degree qualifies you for pay better so you can earn enough to pay off the loans. Also, we need to make majors with little opportunity be a lot rarer so the supply fits the demand.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
The Federal Reserve paper notes that having a college degree is still a major indicator for higher income.
However, I suspect that nearly all careers are over-promoted as to their fulfillment factor. I imagine many STEM majors are hoping to be designing the next probe to Mars or discovering new subatomic particles but their first job ends up being something like stress-testing the a new container for the McSalad.
Even if the job pays well, there is some remorse about roads not taken.
My brother got his masters in Chemistry but his first job where such a degree was needed was inspecting orange juice for the Florida Department of Agriculture.
My memories of Thanksgiving dinners in those years is him complaining about his job.
Probably the only career I've never seen over-promoted is accounting. I'm sure it really is as exciting as it looks.
However, I suspect that nearly all careers are over-promoted as to their fulfillment factor. I imagine many STEM majors are hoping to be designing the next probe to Mars or discovering new subatomic particles but their first job ends up being something like stress-testing the a new container for the McSalad.
Even if the job pays well, there is some remorse about roads not taken.
My brother got his masters in Chemistry but his first job where such a degree was needed was inspecting orange juice for the Florida Department of Agriculture.
My memories of Thanksgiving dinners in those years is him complaining about his job.
Probably the only career I've never seen over-promoted is accounting. I'm sure it really is as exciting as it looks.
- spencercarran
- Posts: 689
- Joined: Oct 17, 2020
[quote="robcat2075"]I'm surprised that more than a quarter of the STEM majors (the least-regretted majors) do also.[/quote]
As your story about your brother illustrates, there are plenty of regrets to be had among those who pursued graduate education in STEM. Many of the conventional career pathways are shockingly bleak.
As your story about your brother illustrates, there are plenty of regrets to be had among those who pursued graduate education in STEM. Many of the conventional career pathways are shockingly bleak.
- greenbean
- Posts: 1958
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I think it has always been this way. Very few History majors find work as Historians; yet they find themselves productively employed in other fields. I would take a guess that 3/4 of college grads work on non-major fields. Turns out that is okay.
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
As I have retired and gotten old and crotchety, I think I see two ideas here that are problems.
College = high paying job.
High paying job = fulfillment.
or, College = fullfilling job.
Fullfilling job = pay if you do it right.
I'm using fulfillment for a catch all term for happiness, subjective absence of misery, contentment and satisfaction with your life, or whatever term you use.
Possibly we should put a little more emphasis on making our life satisfying, decoupled from college or career?
College = high paying job.
High paying job = fulfillment.
or, College = fullfilling job.
Fullfilling job = pay if you do it right.
I'm using fulfillment for a catch all term for happiness, subjective absence of misery, contentment and satisfaction with your life, or whatever term you use.
Possibly we should put a little more emphasis on making our life satisfying, decoupled from college or career?
- MTbassbone
- Posts: 558
- Joined: Apr 21, 2018
I have personnel experience with this topic. I initially started college as a music education major, but after some early field experience decided music education was not for me. I ended up with a BM in performance, and eventually got my MM in performance as well. When I graduated my goal was to take a short break (1-2 years), find a place to put down some roots with my now wife, and start working on my DMA. I got an office job, and was fortunate to be able to pay my expenses (including my student loan debt). At the end of the second year I sat down with the professor at the school where I wanted to work on a DMA. After that meeting I realized I was done with school. My job was reasonably fulfilling and I had great benefits. I considered myself fortunate to have found work outside of my "major" that ticked most of the boxes. Interestingly enough one of the reasons I was hired for my first office job was the HR representative had hired musicians before and felt they were great employees because they had heightened analytical skills. Early on I switched to a different position in a different office, and I have stayed in that office in various capacities now for more than 14 years.
[quote="greenbean"]Very few History majors find work as Historians; yet they find themselves productively employed in other fields. I would take a guess that 3/4 of college grads work on non-major fields. Turns out that is okay.[/quote]
Greenbeen is absolutely right about this being ok. My coworkers over the years have included people with degrees in: English, history, math, business, medicine, and many more. The biggest issue is whether you learn the work and be a good coworker. The notion that an 18-23 year old person has a high probability of knowing what they want to do for the rest of their life is likely low. Do some people have it figured out early on? Sure, but I would imagine most individuals diverge from their original plan by quite a bit.
Do I have regrets? Sometimes I wonder what might have been if I chose some other field, but I have no idea what that would have been. However, those regrets have waned over the years as my own priorities have changed, and honestly I would imagine people of all disciplines have similar thoughts at times.
I have had a few colleagues in music which created an alternative path for themselves in college. For example: Major in business etc and minor in music. Then auditioned for MM programs willing to accept someone with a BS rather than a BM. I have known this to work for two people, and they were very successful in music. I knew of another person who grew up in a family who worked in the trades, and they picked up the trade then freelanced when necessary.
Another path is to go into arts administration. I have two colleagues who now work in administration for a major symphony orchestra.
A few years ago I read an article which argued college diplomas will eventually become a relic, and most disciples will be treated more like a trade. For better or worse I could see this happening.
At the end of the day a degree from an accredited institution will be better than no degree.
[quote="greenbean"]Very few History majors find work as Historians; yet they find themselves productively employed in other fields. I would take a guess that 3/4 of college grads work on non-major fields. Turns out that is okay.[/quote]
Greenbeen is absolutely right about this being ok. My coworkers over the years have included people with degrees in: English, history, math, business, medicine, and many more. The biggest issue is whether you learn the work and be a good coworker. The notion that an 18-23 year old person has a high probability of knowing what they want to do for the rest of their life is likely low. Do some people have it figured out early on? Sure, but I would imagine most individuals diverge from their original plan by quite a bit.
Do I have regrets? Sometimes I wonder what might have been if I chose some other field, but I have no idea what that would have been. However, those regrets have waned over the years as my own priorities have changed, and honestly I would imagine people of all disciplines have similar thoughts at times.
I have had a few colleagues in music which created an alternative path for themselves in college. For example: Major in business etc and minor in music. Then auditioned for MM programs willing to accept someone with a BS rather than a BM. I have known this to work for two people, and they were very successful in music. I knew of another person who grew up in a family who worked in the trades, and they picked up the trade then freelanced when necessary.
Another path is to go into arts administration. I have two colleagues who now work in administration for a major symphony orchestra.
A few years ago I read an article which argued college diplomas will eventually become a relic, and most disciples will be treated more like a trade. For better or worse I could see this happening.
At the end of the day a degree from an accredited institution will be better than no degree.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
My contention is that, aside from pay, job satisfaction is about the people you work with.
The dream job is not a dream if the people you work with are unpleasant. Incompetents, finger-pointers, office-politickers, slackers, postals, over-sharers, credit-grabbers, weepers, evangelists... the more your job involves interactions with your co-workers the more they are a factor in your job satisfaction.
My dad had a PhD in chemistry and had a very good career at 3M with it but i never once heard any talk of how great it was to be a chemist. His dinner-time conversation was almost always about his exasperation with something one of his co-workers had done. "One confounded thing after another!"
And yet he couldn't understand why I didn't yearn to be a chemist also.
The dream job is not a dream if the people you work with are unpleasant. Incompetents, finger-pointers, office-politickers, slackers, postals, over-sharers, credit-grabbers, weepers, evangelists... the more your job involves interactions with your co-workers the more they are a factor in your job satisfaction.
My dad had a PhD in chemistry and had a very good career at 3M with it but i never once heard any talk of how great it was to be a chemist. His dinner-time conversation was almost always about his exasperation with something one of his co-workers had done. "One confounded thing after another!"
And yet he couldn't understand why I didn't yearn to be a chemist also.
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="robcat2075"]My contention is that, aside from pay, job satisfaction is about the people you work with.
[/quote]
Probably so for most. Unless you're the one that drives the rest nuts!
Should we really talk about job satisfaction, or should it be life satisfaction?
This reminded me of one of the Carlos Casteneda books, which we all read back in the 70s when we were a bit less critical. So this is from those memories, but the American grad student studying the brujo's ways of power showed pity for the poverty of the local people. The brujo corrected him saying their poverty was not relevant to whether or not they could learn to "see." Something the student was failing to do. I've paraphrased heavily out of necessity. Do kids even read that stuff now?
[/quote]
Probably so for most. Unless you're the one that drives the rest nuts!
Should we really talk about job satisfaction, or should it be life satisfaction?
This reminded me of one of the Carlos Casteneda books, which we all read back in the 70s when we were a bit less critical. So this is from those memories, but the American grad student studying the brujo's ways of power showed pity for the poverty of the local people. The brujo corrected him saying their poverty was not relevant to whether or not they could learn to "see." Something the student was failing to do. I've paraphrased heavily out of necessity. Do kids even read that stuff now?
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
Well, Castaneda etc was fiction.
Research supported that a particular level of income, about $75k/yr, related to happiness. Increased income didn’t make that much of a difference.
Except new research suggests otherwise:
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2016976118
Research supported that a particular level of income, about $75k/yr, related to happiness. Increased income didn’t make that much of a difference.
Except new research suggests otherwise:
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2016976118
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="Matt K"]At some point, we're going to have to square the circle that is that 1) students (largely) expect attending university to be vocational preparation and 2) universities aren't vocational prep. I recall a few years ago a set of open letters where a recent graduate was lamenting the former and a professor was refuting using the latter point, but I can't seem to recall enough keywords to find said letters.
<QUOTE> The fact that such a high percentage of our work force is unhappy with their situation is a sad commentary on the state of our country.[/quote]
Possibly, but being in my lower 30s, I think that my generation was largely heavily overpromised of exactly what an education would provide for you. At a certain point, it probably was a near certainty that you would have a reasonably comfortable life when 7% of the population had a degree, but now that almost half (37.5%) of the population has them.... it's hardly even a differentiator.
</QUOTE>
I agree with this! School was sold to me as "school = good job". What a load of crock.
In reality, school gave me no job skills in my chosen field. I learned a bit about critical thinking, and how to play the trombone (which was not my major area of focus).
Americans would be better off and happier if vocational schools were sold as good education and respectable. "Smart kids go to vocational school" or something, rather than dropouts.
<QUOTE> The fact that such a high percentage of our work force is unhappy with their situation is a sad commentary on the state of our country.[/quote]
Possibly, but being in my lower 30s, I think that my generation was largely heavily overpromised of exactly what an education would provide for you. At a certain point, it probably was a near certainty that you would have a reasonably comfortable life when 7% of the population had a degree, but now that almost half (37.5%) of the population has them.... it's hardly even a differentiator.
</QUOTE>
I agree with this! School was sold to me as "school = good job". What a load of crock.
In reality, school gave me no job skills in my chosen field. I learned a bit about critical thinking, and how to play the trombone (which was not my major area of focus).
Americans would be better off and happier if vocational schools were sold as good education and respectable. "Smart kids go to vocational school" or something, rather than dropouts.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
[quote="CharlieB"]The fact that such a high percentage of our work force is unhappy with their situation is a sad commentary on the state of our country.[/quote]
I wonder if this level of unhappiness is all that new. A lot of people used to have grindingly unpleasant jobs and desperate finances in old-time America.
I recall a factoid about how a third of the immigrants in the decades around 1900 eventually gave up and went back whence they came.
Maybe a lot of native born would have done that... if they had had anywhere to go back to! :idk:
I wonder if this level of unhappiness is all that new. A lot of people used to have grindingly unpleasant jobs and desperate finances in old-time America.
I recall a factoid about how a third of the immigrants in the decades around 1900 eventually gave up and went back whence they came.
Maybe a lot of native born would have done that... if they had had anywhere to go back to! :idk:
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
Now, I won't say that I don't have a problem with the way college is set up at the moment. But...
I think people have a pretty serious misconception about school. Yes, things like preparing your taxes are not taught in high schools generally, but the skills you need to figure that out and actually do it are all taught. We are meant to be more complete people than simply a collection of our skills, after all.
College is the same way to a point. I don't think anyone agrees that there should be literally tens of thousands of trombone jobs open and available every year for those college graduates. Instead, some of them will go on to succeed in music, and many others will find other avenues for their careers (insert tired pizza delivery joke here).
The simple fact of the matter is that people with college degrees earn much, much more than their colleagues without, including those who went to vocational schools.
And those college degree jobs, by and large, won't destroy your body and just pay better and have better benefits.
The problem isn't so much with the degrees themselves (though I think there are issues to be addressed), but the way they are perceived by the public (and apparently, by many on here).
In the course of a trombone performance degree, I learned MANY things, not just how to play good Bb scales. I learned how to research, how to communicate like a professional, how to be on time, how to work with others towards a common goal, how to lead, how to listen... the list goes on. (the problem is when that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars, of course).
Is the fact that your degree largely isn't going to lead to a job in that field communicated to 18-year-olds? Not really, no, but getting anything through an 18-year-old head is hard enough as it is.
I think people have a pretty serious misconception about school. Yes, things like preparing your taxes are not taught in high schools generally, but the skills you need to figure that out and actually do it are all taught. We are meant to be more complete people than simply a collection of our skills, after all.
College is the same way to a point. I don't think anyone agrees that there should be literally tens of thousands of trombone jobs open and available every year for those college graduates. Instead, some of them will go on to succeed in music, and many others will find other avenues for their careers (insert tired pizza delivery joke here).
The simple fact of the matter is that people with college degrees earn much, much more than their colleagues without, including those who went to vocational schools.
And those college degree jobs, by and large, won't destroy your body and just pay better and have better benefits.
The problem isn't so much with the degrees themselves (though I think there are issues to be addressed), but the way they are perceived by the public (and apparently, by many on here).
In the course of a trombone performance degree, I learned MANY things, not just how to play good Bb scales. I learned how to research, how to communicate like a professional, how to be on time, how to work with others towards a common goal, how to lead, how to listen... the list goes on. (the problem is when that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars, of course).
Is the fact that your degree largely isn't going to lead to a job in that field communicated to 18-year-olds? Not really, no, but getting anything through an 18-year-old head is hard enough as it is.
- OneTon
- Posts: 757
- Joined: Nov 02, 2021
[quote="Burgerbob"]
The simple fact of the matter is that people with college degrees earn much, much more than their colleagues without, including those who went to vocational schools.
And those college degree jobs, by and large, won't destroy your body and just pay better and have better benefits.
[/quote]
That is not a fact. It is at best an assumption. If the four years the student is not in the workforce or fully engaged in the workforce is coupled with debt accrued for the degree, the ROI is better for a skilled worker. Many college graduates net less benefits than their blue collar peers. Starting pay is dismal for public school teachers. If they hang in there the pay eventually does get better.
Particularly on both coasts, prior to WWII, high school graduates with the means sought undergraduate liberal arts degrees with the expectation that they would join the workforce afterwards. If they went into business for themselves or were in the family business, or joined some larger venture, they did as well or better than their non degreed peers, and were and still are promoted more often. After WWII many GI were motivated by the Great Depression, and being four years behind in joining the workforce and starting a family, to use GI Bill benefits to acquire science, technology, education, or business degrees as opposed to liberal arts degrees.
It is worth noting that prior to WWII, students completing the eighth grade could balance a checkbook, accomplish simple book keeping, and write a coherent paragraph. We now have students entering college and university capable of doing none of the above.
Between 1970 and 1985, colleges and universities were allowed (or perhaps encouraged) to increase tuitions fourfold. Government grants were made available to bridge the gap. Once the grant money evaporated, the government made acquisition of debt a secondary education norm. This situation continues to lead to career dissatisfaction and for liberal arts graduates and dropouts bitter disappointment. The ROI for liberal arts degrees is on life support. Even the ROI for STEM degrees cannot compete when compared to apprentice or skilled labor training. The unintended consequences of allowing secondary education costs to balloon and the subsequent subsidization of those costs with personal debt have created a nightmare worthy of the “Twilight Zone.”
The cited article criticizes Obama for encouraging college students in a commencement address to seek STEM degrees presumably to ensure that the US remains competitive in the world economy and at the same time implying that liberal arts degrees are a bridge to nowhere. Unfortunately Obama’s speech amounted to sticking his finger in the dike of a much bigger problem, stewing in a pot full of other, big problems.
If the US is to remain competitive in the world economy, we must change not only what we teach but how we teach it and how we pay for it. This does not mean to continue to diminish liberal arts as a viable component of higher education.
The simple fact of the matter is that people with college degrees earn much, much more than their colleagues without, including those who went to vocational schools.
And those college degree jobs, by and large, won't destroy your body and just pay better and have better benefits.
[/quote]
That is not a fact. It is at best an assumption. If the four years the student is not in the workforce or fully engaged in the workforce is coupled with debt accrued for the degree, the ROI is better for a skilled worker. Many college graduates net less benefits than their blue collar peers. Starting pay is dismal for public school teachers. If they hang in there the pay eventually does get better.
Particularly on both coasts, prior to WWII, high school graduates with the means sought undergraduate liberal arts degrees with the expectation that they would join the workforce afterwards. If they went into business for themselves or were in the family business, or joined some larger venture, they did as well or better than their non degreed peers, and were and still are promoted more often. After WWII many GI were motivated by the Great Depression, and being four years behind in joining the workforce and starting a family, to use GI Bill benefits to acquire science, technology, education, or business degrees as opposed to liberal arts degrees.
It is worth noting that prior to WWII, students completing the eighth grade could balance a checkbook, accomplish simple book keeping, and write a coherent paragraph. We now have students entering college and university capable of doing none of the above.
Between 1970 and 1985, colleges and universities were allowed (or perhaps encouraged) to increase tuitions fourfold. Government grants were made available to bridge the gap. Once the grant money evaporated, the government made acquisition of debt a secondary education norm. This situation continues to lead to career dissatisfaction and for liberal arts graduates and dropouts bitter disappointment. The ROI for liberal arts degrees is on life support. Even the ROI for STEM degrees cannot compete when compared to apprentice or skilled labor training. The unintended consequences of allowing secondary education costs to balloon and the subsequent subsidization of those costs with personal debt have created a nightmare worthy of the “Twilight Zone.”
The cited article criticizes Obama for encouraging college students in a commencement address to seek STEM degrees presumably to ensure that the US remains competitive in the world economy and at the same time implying that liberal arts degrees are a bridge to nowhere. Unfortunately Obama’s speech amounted to sticking his finger in the dike of a much bigger problem, stewing in a pot full of other, big problems.
If the US is to remain competitive in the world economy, we must change not only what we teach but how we teach it and how we pay for it. This does not mean to continue to diminish liberal arts as a viable component of higher education.
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
It's also a correlation, not inherently causal. Take someone who can get through college and give them on-the-job training, and I suspect a large number of them would be just as fine if not ahead of someone with a degree. Even the more vocationally inclined degrees (like some of the STEM programs) have a ton of fluff in a lot of universities here.
But the way it's currently set up, many companies know that people will pay to train themselves and filter themselves out, so they don't offer true "entry" level positions. Only positions that require someone to have pre-sorted themselves as a good candidate first. This precludes, of course, fields where you have occupational licensing. By definition, people in those fields with degrees must make more than those who don't. It would be impossible for that to not be the case. (Such as doctors with the most training vs. nurses vs. technicians, etc.)
That isn't to say that it's a bad thing that there is fluff. I had a required class that was basically "don't go binge drinking up frat row". And you weren't allowed to start some of the major specific stuff until you finished the generic coursework. Generic meaning you can "choose your own adventure" and pick from a lab science, a civics class, etc. Regardless of the merits of requiring psychology101 and sociology 101 for all graduates to make you a more well rounded individual, that seems completely backwards to me.
Only the most privileged attend college exclusively to become a more well-rounded individual. Everyone else has at least a majority desire to be gainfully employed largely as a result of their time in the university. It would seem to me that 1) coursework should be reversed so that only the actual pre-requisites for a degree are required for acceptance (such as calculus for computer science and engineering, biologies for pre-med, etc.) - having students go straight into their major course work and 2) a stronger emphasis placed on students to do internships during the latter part of their time combined with the coursework that then makes them generally well rounded, but less relevant for work experience.
Most of the types of "well rounded" classes are, frankly, just cash cows for universities at this point anyway. If they are done in person, they are done in 400 person lecture halls. Students pay a hefty sum to have access to the coursework textbook, which gives them an online interface that they must use to access their homework, which is typically ~50% of the grade, with the remaining 50% for attendance and a mid-term and final exam. Cutting out the in-person requirement for these would allow for more remote job placement, get students into the field, possibly earning income, and gaining valuable experience and also giving them the exact same general studies curriculum.
A lot of times, those internships are essentially really long interviews for candidates and often lead to the intern getting hired at the same company for a same or similar role. In this model, that would give a much smoother transition into professional life and potentially taper off the university learning and increase the time on-the-job over say 3 or 4 years so that the student doesn't have to cram everything into awkward semester or trimester schedules and has sufficient capital to pay for the general credits without going into severe debt, perhaps even on the dime of the employer.
But the way it's currently set up, many companies know that people will pay to train themselves and filter themselves out, so they don't offer true "entry" level positions. Only positions that require someone to have pre-sorted themselves as a good candidate first. This precludes, of course, fields where you have occupational licensing. By definition, people in those fields with degrees must make more than those who don't. It would be impossible for that to not be the case. (Such as doctors with the most training vs. nurses vs. technicians, etc.)
That isn't to say that it's a bad thing that there is fluff. I had a required class that was basically "don't go binge drinking up frat row". And you weren't allowed to start some of the major specific stuff until you finished the generic coursework. Generic meaning you can "choose your own adventure" and pick from a lab science, a civics class, etc. Regardless of the merits of requiring psychology101 and sociology 101 for all graduates to make you a more well rounded individual, that seems completely backwards to me.
Only the most privileged attend college exclusively to become a more well-rounded individual. Everyone else has at least a majority desire to be gainfully employed largely as a result of their time in the university. It would seem to me that 1) coursework should be reversed so that only the actual pre-requisites for a degree are required for acceptance (such as calculus for computer science and engineering, biologies for pre-med, etc.) - having students go straight into their major course work and 2) a stronger emphasis placed on students to do internships during the latter part of their time combined with the coursework that then makes them generally well rounded, but less relevant for work experience.
Most of the types of "well rounded" classes are, frankly, just cash cows for universities at this point anyway. If they are done in person, they are done in 400 person lecture halls. Students pay a hefty sum to have access to the coursework textbook, which gives them an online interface that they must use to access their homework, which is typically ~50% of the grade, with the remaining 50% for attendance and a mid-term and final exam. Cutting out the in-person requirement for these would allow for more remote job placement, get students into the field, possibly earning income, and gaining valuable experience and also giving them the exact same general studies curriculum.
A lot of times, those internships are essentially really long interviews for candidates and often lead to the intern getting hired at the same company for a same or similar role. In this model, that would give a much smoother transition into professional life and potentially taper off the university learning and increase the time on-the-job over say 3 or 4 years so that the student doesn't have to cram everything into awkward semester or trimester schedules and has sufficient capital to pay for the general credits without going into severe debt, perhaps even on the dime of the employer.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I had a false start as a musician before I changed direction and went into engineering. I think kids need to tune out activists who try to push certain genders or races into certain jobs to satisfy their own sense of something. You have to do what interests you, but you also have to get an honest look at what you'll wind up doing.
I wasn't mature enough at 20 years old to make big decisions. Nor did I know enough about the world around me. Parents need to be more actively involved in directing kids, along with employment counselors. Internships could easily replace college for a lot of people, and judging from what teachers teach in schools these days, I would not trust my mind to a college under any circumstances.
And employers... So much is romanticized or sheer fantasy. Kis think they are gonna start at the top of the scale, and employers think everyone will be under 35 and will work for nothing.
To me the biggest problem is that public companies try to satisfy shareholders and don't think employees matter that much. That's why I'll never work for a publicly traded company again. Employees are just an expense. It's this part of the system that gets ignored, but it's the biggest part of the problems in employment. Employees should be part owners. It solves a lot of problems.
I wasn't mature enough at 20 years old to make big decisions. Nor did I know enough about the world around me. Parents need to be more actively involved in directing kids, along with employment counselors. Internships could easily replace college for a lot of people, and judging from what teachers teach in schools these days, I would not trust my mind to a college under any circumstances.
And employers... So much is romanticized or sheer fantasy. Kis think they are gonna start at the top of the scale, and employers think everyone will be under 35 and will work for nothing.
To me the biggest problem is that public companies try to satisfy shareholders and don't think employees matter that much. That's why I'll never work for a publicly traded company again. Employees are just an expense. It's this part of the system that gets ignored, but it's the biggest part of the problems in employment. Employees should be part owners. It solves a lot of problems.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
Rising cost of college...
When I enrolled at the University of North Texas in 1983 it had a tuition of $4 per credit plus around $100 of fees.
Today it appears to be about $300 per credit, plus a couple thousand in fees. Ouch.
When I enrolled at the University of North Texas in 1983 it had a tuition of $4 per credit plus around $100 of fees.
Today it appears to be about $300 per credit, plus a couple thousand in fees. Ouch.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
When I was going to school we had just suffered a major embarrassment. The "Godless Commies" had launched a satellite into space and we couldn't. It also meant that they had a device that could just as easily hurl a nuclear weapon to the US without having to be fairly close. The US Gummint sponsored all kinds of university activities as well as encouraging us to go out for STEM programs. There were all kinds of grants to study fields related to the arms race. With the advent of Reaganism all that disappeared.
As to on-the-job training, it's somewhat hit-or-miss. I worked with people who were called "engineers" who had come up through the ranks. They were absolute masters at solving problems they had seen before, but couldn't handle ones they hadn't. They didn't have the fundamental knowledge to work out the solution to a new problem. Also, OJT tends to compartmentalize you into a particular job and you couldn't spread out to do something else if needed. Employers tended also to assume since you never worked in "their" industry you couldn't learn. I found this very frustrating since I felt that a different industry simply used other facets of my knowledge. Sure, making tires is different from making adhesive tape, but once you learn how the materials function you can learn to make either. It may be a month or two of learning the new system -- provided you can understand the basics of the industry.
I can also understand how kids today get into the boxes they find themselves in. When you are 18 and just finishing High School, what do you have experience with? Mostly academic subjects with little practical application, sports, and artistic pursuits that are fun. Unless your family has some kind of business you can work in for practical experience, most kids can only get "dead end" jobs working in fast food or shagging carts for the local grocery store. And guidance counselors got cut as school budgets got tighter so there was nobody to try to find something that might keep them interested. So a kid who was better than average in Band decides he wants to study music as a major. He gets student loans to cover the cost of the degree and then comes out and discovers that the market for his skills is pretty tight. And with a music degree, you don't have the fundamentals for most jobs in the private market. So now you need either more training or you go to work in a job you could have done before you spent 4 years in college. One route involves more cost and the other won't provide enough money to pay back the huge loan debt. Quite a dilemma.
As to on-the-job training, it's somewhat hit-or-miss. I worked with people who were called "engineers" who had come up through the ranks. They were absolute masters at solving problems they had seen before, but couldn't handle ones they hadn't. They didn't have the fundamental knowledge to work out the solution to a new problem. Also, OJT tends to compartmentalize you into a particular job and you couldn't spread out to do something else if needed. Employers tended also to assume since you never worked in "their" industry you couldn't learn. I found this very frustrating since I felt that a different industry simply used other facets of my knowledge. Sure, making tires is different from making adhesive tape, but once you learn how the materials function you can learn to make either. It may be a month or two of learning the new system -- provided you can understand the basics of the industry.
I can also understand how kids today get into the boxes they find themselves in. When you are 18 and just finishing High School, what do you have experience with? Mostly academic subjects with little practical application, sports, and artistic pursuits that are fun. Unless your family has some kind of business you can work in for practical experience, most kids can only get "dead end" jobs working in fast food or shagging carts for the local grocery store. And guidance counselors got cut as school budgets got tighter so there was nobody to try to find something that might keep them interested. So a kid who was better than average in Band decides he wants to study music as a major. He gets student loans to cover the cost of the degree and then comes out and discovers that the market for his skills is pretty tight. And with a music degree, you don't have the fundamentals for most jobs in the private market. So now you need either more training or you go to work in a job you could have done before you spent 4 years in college. One route involves more cost and the other won't provide enough money to pay back the huge loan debt. Quite a dilemma.
- OneTon
- Posts: 757
- Joined: Nov 02, 2021
I have run across a hand full of non degreed in house engineers that could compete with and often outperform degreed problem solvers. One major manufacturer attempted to bring rocket design engineers in on their super sonic transport proposal effort. The rocket scientists never did grasp the difference in design requirements for a one cycle life and 50,000 to 100,000 flight cycles vehicle. In house engineers were often very limited in mobility and becoming rarer. Some people have more adaptability than others. Generalizations get slippery. As a root cause, increasing productivity decreases employee requirements which has a simultaneous impact on product demand. The world economy is reaching a turning point that will have to be faced one way or another.
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
If someone needs an accountant, they can get a spreadsheet done remotely from anywhere in the world. Your job can be outsourced to a third world country where someone may actually be both cheaper and smarter than you.
If someone needs a plumber, they have to find someone who can come to their house. Your job is safe even if you're mediocre, and in demand if you're competent. I think we've made a mistake in setting a low priority on trade education.
If someone needs a plumber, they have to find someone who can come to their house. Your job is safe even if you're mediocre, and in demand if you're competent. I think we've made a mistake in setting a low priority on trade education.
- OneTon
- Posts: 757
- Joined: Nov 02, 2021
When Japan first started importing cars in 1957 according to Wikipedia, US wages far exceeded Japan wages. Today that disparity is far narrower or non existent. The corporate culture that throws people at problems may still exist. Manufacturing costs are closer to being on a par. The same thing appears to be happening in China as wages and quality improve. In a world economy wages and manufacturing costs tend to average out over time. It is no small irony that it seems like the majority of plumbing supplies come from China. Many of the parts are junk and provide job security for local plumbers.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="hyperbolica"]. I think kids need to tune out activists who try to push certain genders or races into certain jobs to satisfy their own sense of something.[/quote]
What the...? Get out of here with this.
What the...? Get out of here with this.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="OneTon"]
It is worth noting that prior to WWII, students completing the eighth grade could balance a checkbook, accomplish simple book keeping, and write a coherent paragraph. We now have students entering college and university capable of doing none of the above.
[/quote]
Source? This sounds pretty made up to me.
Again, the average college degree job, whatever it is, is not going to destroy your body like construction, plumbing, car repair, etc. This isn't to say that we don't absolutely need those jobs and workers in droves, but it's a big drive for people to not do them.
It is worth noting that prior to WWII, students completing the eighth grade could balance a checkbook, accomplish simple book keeping, and write a coherent paragraph. We now have students entering college and university capable of doing none of the above.
[/quote]
Source? This sounds pretty made up to me.
Again, the average college degree job, whatever it is, is not going to destroy your body like construction, plumbing, car repair, etc. This isn't to say that we don't absolutely need those jobs and workers in droves, but it's a big drive for people to not do them.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="hyperbolica" post_id="188159" time="1662554660" user_id="104">
. I think kids need to tune out activists who try to push certain genders or races into certain jobs to satisfy their own sense of something.[/quote]
What the...? Get out of here with this.
</QUOTE>
No. You should do what you want to do. Not what someone else's overactive and misplaced conscience says you should do. Guilting people into doing something is the reason people hate what they do - they're fulfilling someone else's dreams. I'm an engineer, when I was in school there were few female engineering students. The answer is not to push women into engineering, it's just to allow them to make their own decisions. Pushing quotas is trying to solve prejudice with prejudice. That has never worked, and it just makes the situation worse. The goal is freedom, not heavy handed imposed 50-50 distribution.
. I think kids need to tune out activists who try to push certain genders or races into certain jobs to satisfy their own sense of something.[/quote]
What the...? Get out of here with this.
</QUOTE>
No. You should do what you want to do. Not what someone else's overactive and misplaced conscience says you should do. Guilting people into doing something is the reason people hate what they do - they're fulfilling someone else's dreams. I'm an engineer, when I was in school there were few female engineering students. The answer is not to push women into engineering, it's just to allow them to make their own decisions. Pushing quotas is trying to solve prejudice with prejudice. That has never worked, and it just makes the situation worse. The goal is freedom, not heavy handed imposed 50-50 distribution.
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
I disagree but from a completely different perspective. The fact of the matter is we have a huge demand for people in STEM. If men are already going to go into those fields, it makes sense to incentivize women to also join those fields because then your net amount of STEM graduates increases. That may or may not increase satisfaction though. But it's better to remove whatever roadblocks exist for the women who are at least ambivalent about becoming engineers and scientists than it is not to as it's easier to get into other fields from there, but difficult to go the other direction.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Matt K"]I disagree but from a completely different perspective. The fact of the matter is we have a huge demand for people in STEM. If men are already going to go into those fields, it makes sense to incentivize women to also join those fields because then your net amount of STEM graduates increases. That may or may not increase satisfaction though. But it's better to remove whatever roadblocks exist for the women who are at least ambivalent about becoming engineers and scientists than it is not to as it's easier to get into other fields from there, but difficult to go the other direction.[/quote]
I know what you're trying to do, but from results point of view, specifically targeting women is misguided and inefficient. You should incentivize everyone without regard for identity rather than targeting a group where you know you're going to get a low return. Incentives that include everyone are more likely to fill the gaps. And they are less discriminatory, which it seems should be a goal as well. Is anyone trying to recruit male interior decorators? It's ok if groups of people avoid certain types of work, as long as no one is actively being discouraged, and everyone has the opportunity.
When I was in the Navy I took the ASVAB test, don't know if it's still a thing or not, but it was very helpful. Essentially found where your interests lined up with your abilities. It never asked me about sex or race as those are irrelevant to interests and abilities. Math, spatial reasoning, problem solving were my skills, and I like building and designing stuff. I was miserable as a musician, but I've been very happy as an engineer. Music is a great hobby for me, just not a way to make a living. Some people find engineering dull and uninteresting. They should have taken that test instead of trying to appease some activists conscience.
I know what you're trying to do, but from results point of view, specifically targeting women is misguided and inefficient. You should incentivize everyone without regard for identity rather than targeting a group where you know you're going to get a low return. Incentives that include everyone are more likely to fill the gaps. And they are less discriminatory, which it seems should be a goal as well. Is anyone trying to recruit male interior decorators? It's ok if groups of people avoid certain types of work, as long as no one is actively being discouraged, and everyone has the opportunity.
When I was in the Navy I took the ASVAB test, don't know if it's still a thing or not, but it was very helpful. Essentially found where your interests lined up with your abilities. It never asked me about sex or race as those are irrelevant to interests and abilities. Math, spatial reasoning, problem solving were my skills, and I like building and designing stuff. I was miserable as a musician, but I've been very happy as an engineer. Music is a great hobby for me, just not a way to make a living. Some people find engineering dull and uninteresting. They should have taken that test instead of trying to appease some activists conscience.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="hyperbolica"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="188181" time="1662566140" user_id="3131">
What the...? Get out of here with this.[/quote]
No. You should do what you want to do. Not what someone else's overactive and misplaced conscience says you should do. Guilting people into doing something is the reason people hate what they do - they're fulfilling someone else's dreams. I'm an engineer, when I was in school there were few female engineering students. The answer is not to push women into engineering, it's just to allow them to make their own decisions. Pushing quotas is trying to solve prejudice with prejudice. That has never worked, and it just makes the situation worse. The goal is freedom, not heavy handed imposed 50-50 distribution.
</QUOTE>
You have a massive misunderstanding of this issue, which isn't surprising. In any case, please leave it out of the discussion.
What the...? Get out of here with this.[/quote]
No. You should do what you want to do. Not what someone else's overactive and misplaced conscience says you should do. Guilting people into doing something is the reason people hate what they do - they're fulfilling someone else's dreams. I'm an engineer, when I was in school there were few female engineering students. The answer is not to push women into engineering, it's just to allow them to make their own decisions. Pushing quotas is trying to solve prejudice with prejudice. That has never worked, and it just makes the situation worse. The goal is freedom, not heavy handed imposed 50-50 distribution.
</QUOTE>
You have a massive misunderstanding of this issue, which isn't surprising. In any case, please leave it out of the discussion.
- bubblelord
- Posts: 77
- Joined: Nov 23, 2019
[quote="hyperbolica"]<QUOTE author="Matt K" post_id="188186" time="1662568488" user_id="48">
I disagree but from a completely different perspective. The fact of the matter is we have a huge demand for people in STEM. If men are already going to go into those fields, it makes sense to incentivize women to also join those fields because then your net amount of STEM graduates increases. That may or may not increase satisfaction though. But it's better to remove whatever roadblocks exist for the women who are at least ambivalent about becoming engineers and scientists than it is not to as it's easier to get into other fields from there, but difficult to go the other direction.[/quote]
I know what you're trying to do, but from results point of view, specifically targeting women is misguided and inefficient. You should incentivize everyone without regard for identity rather than targeting a group where you know you're going to get a low return. Incentives that include everyone are more likely to fill the gaps. And they are less discriminatory, which it seems should be a goal as well. Is anyone trying to recruit male interior decorators? It's ok if groups of people avoid certain types of work, as long as no one is actively being discouraged, and everyone has the opportunity.
When I was in the Navy I took the ASVAB test, don't know if it's still a thing or not, but it was very helpful. Essentially found where your interests lined up with your abilities. It never asked me about sex or race as those are irrelevant to interests and abilities. Math, spatial reasoning, problem solving were my skills, and I like building and designing stuff. I was miserable as a musician, but I've been very happy as an engineer. Music is a great hobby for me, just not a way to make a living. Some people find engineering dull and uninteresting. They should have taken that test instead of trying to appease some activists conscience.
</QUOTE>
The strawmanning is getting old.
I disagree but from a completely different perspective. The fact of the matter is we have a huge demand for people in STEM. If men are already going to go into those fields, it makes sense to incentivize women to also join those fields because then your net amount of STEM graduates increases. That may or may not increase satisfaction though. But it's better to remove whatever roadblocks exist for the women who are at least ambivalent about becoming engineers and scientists than it is not to as it's easier to get into other fields from there, but difficult to go the other direction.[/quote]
I know what you're trying to do, but from results point of view, specifically targeting women is misguided and inefficient. You should incentivize everyone without regard for identity rather than targeting a group where you know you're going to get a low return. Incentives that include everyone are more likely to fill the gaps. And they are less discriminatory, which it seems should be a goal as well. Is anyone trying to recruit male interior decorators? It's ok if groups of people avoid certain types of work, as long as no one is actively being discouraged, and everyone has the opportunity.
When I was in the Navy I took the ASVAB test, don't know if it's still a thing or not, but it was very helpful. Essentially found where your interests lined up with your abilities. It never asked me about sex or race as those are irrelevant to interests and abilities. Math, spatial reasoning, problem solving were my skills, and I like building and designing stuff. I was miserable as a musician, but I've been very happy as an engineer. Music is a great hobby for me, just not a way to make a living. Some people find engineering dull and uninteresting. They should have taken that test instead of trying to appease some activists conscience.
</QUOTE>
The strawmanning is getting old.
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
People (probably?) aren't looking for gender specific interior decorators. But if there was an extremely high demand for interior decorators and it was female dominated (I'm presuming it is now? I have no frame of reference) then yes, providing scholarships targeted at males would be a good idea IMO. It is, indeed, less efficient by definition. But you get more engineers, etc.
STEM degrees are also a lot easier to teach in a hybrid or remote environment, so I would hope that in the future universities will stop having quotas at all for those types of majors and instead cutoff based on perceived or, better yet, measured aptitude.
That all said, I don't think it's misguided to think that pushing people towards STEM fields will help what the OPs article indicated. It's often boring, uninspring, and mentally laborious work. I happen to love it, but I've known a lot of apathetic people in my field. Increasing aggregate levels of happiness is going to be well beyond my paygrade.
STEM degrees are also a lot easier to teach in a hybrid or remote environment, so I would hope that in the future universities will stop having quotas at all for those types of majors and instead cutoff based on perceived or, better yet, measured aptitude.
That all said, I don't think it's misguided to think that pushing people towards STEM fields will help what the OPs article indicated. It's often boring, uninspring, and mentally laborious work. I happen to love it, but I've known a lot of apathetic people in my field. Increasing aggregate levels of happiness is going to be well beyond my paygrade.
- spencercarran
- Posts: 689
- Joined: Oct 17, 2020
[quote="OneTon"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="188148" time="1662526516" user_id="3131">
The simple fact of the matter is that people with college degrees earn much, much more than their colleagues without, including those who went to vocational schools.
And those college degree jobs, by and large, won't destroy your body and just pay better and have better benefits.
[/quote]
That is not a fact. It is at best an assumption.
</QUOTE>
No, that really is a fact. Unless you're going to argue that the Bureau of Labor Statistics is cooking the books.
The simple fact of the matter is that people with college degrees earn much, much more than their colleagues without, including those who went to vocational schools.
And those college degree jobs, by and large, won't destroy your body and just pay better and have better benefits.
[/quote]
That is not a fact. It is at best an assumption.
</QUOTE>
No, that really is a fact. Unless you're going to argue that the Bureau of Labor Statistics is cooking the books.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="spencercarran"]<QUOTE author="OneTon" post_id="188150" time="1662535497" user_id="13549">
That is not a fact. It is at best an assumption.[/quote]
No, that really is a fact. Unless you're going to argue that the Bureau of Labor Statistics is cooking the books.
</QUOTE>
Music professor with a doctorate: ~$96k <LINK_TEXT text="https://www.salary.com/research/salary/ ... sic-salary">https://www.salary.com/research/salary/benchmark/professor-music-salary</LINK_TEXT>
My brother with no degree working at a media company: $150k
You know what you can do with your statistics.
That is not a fact. It is at best an assumption.[/quote]
No, that really is a fact. Unless you're going to argue that the Bureau of Labor Statistics is cooking the books.
</QUOTE>
Music professor with a doctorate: ~$96k <LINK_TEXT text="https://www.salary.com/research/salary/ ... sic-salary">https://www.salary.com/research/salary/benchmark/professor-music-salary</LINK_TEXT>
My brother with no degree working at a media company: $150k
You know what you can do with your statistics.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="hyperbolica"]<QUOTE author="spencercarran" post_id="188194" time="1662573612" user_id="10390">
No, that really is a fact. Unless you're going to argue that the Bureau of Labor Statistics is cooking the books.[/quote]
Music professor with a doctorate: ~$96k <LINK_TEXT text="https://www.salary.com/research/salary/ ... sic-salary">https://www.salary.com/research/salary/benchmark/professor-music-salary</LINK_TEXT>
My brother with no degree working at a media company: $150k
You know what you can do with your statistics.
</QUOTE>
Please, please stop posting in this thread.
No, that really is a fact. Unless you're going to argue that the Bureau of Labor Statistics is cooking the books.[/quote]
Music professor with a doctorate: ~$96k <LINK_TEXT text="https://www.salary.com/research/salary/ ... sic-salary">https://www.salary.com/research/salary/benchmark/professor-music-salary</LINK_TEXT>
My brother with no degree working at a media company: $150k
You know what you can do with your statistics.
</QUOTE>
Please, please stop posting in this thread.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="hyperbolica" post_id="188196" time="1662574462" user_id="104">
Music professor with a doctorate: ~$96k <LINK_TEXT text="https://www.salary.com/research/salary/ ... sic-salary">https://www.salary.com/research/salary/benchmark/professor-music-salary</LINK_TEXT>
My brother with no degree working at a media company: $150k
You know what you can do with your statistics.[/quote]
Please, please stop posting in this thread.
</QUOTE>
Lighten up, Francis. And stop letting the tv think for you. :D
Music professor with a doctorate: ~$96k <LINK_TEXT text="https://www.salary.com/research/salary/ ... sic-salary">https://www.salary.com/research/salary/benchmark/professor-music-salary</LINK_TEXT>
My brother with no degree working at a media company: $150k
You know what you can do with your statistics.[/quote]
Please, please stop posting in this thread.
</QUOTE>
Lighten up, Francis. And stop letting the tv think for you. :D
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="hyperbolica"]
Lighten up, Francis. And stop letting the tv think for you. :D[/quote]
This coming from Fox News Talking Points himself- please.
Lighten up, Francis. And stop letting the tv think for you. :D[/quote]
This coming from Fox News Talking Points himself- please.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="hyperbolica" post_id="188199" time="1662575195" user_id="104">
Lighten up, Francis. And stop letting the tv think for you. :D[/quote]
This coming from Fox News Talking Points himself- please.
</QUOTE>
Sorry, I don't watch Fox News. Mostly CBS. Still don't let them think for me.
I could have asked what your student loan to income ratio is, or if how your job treats your body for a cushy college educated job, but that would be a waste of time, wouldn't it?
Lighten up, Francis. And stop letting the tv think for you. :D[/quote]
This coming from Fox News Talking Points himself- please.
</QUOTE>
Sorry, I don't watch Fox News. Mostly CBS. Still don't let them think for me.
I could have asked what your student loan to income ratio is, or if how your job treats your body for a cushy college educated job, but that would be a waste of time, wouldn't it?
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="hyperbolica"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="188201" time="1662575843" user_id="3131">
This coming from Fox News Talking Points himself- please.[/quote]
Sorry, I don't watch Fox News. Mostly CBS. Still don't let them think for me.
I could have asked what your student loan to income ratio is, or if how your job treats your body for a cushy college educated job, but that would be a waste of time, wouldn't it?
</QUOTE>
Yes, because my personal experience doesn't matter- the statistics do.
This coming from Fox News Talking Points himself- please.[/quote]
Sorry, I don't watch Fox News. Mostly CBS. Still don't let them think for me.
I could have asked what your student loan to income ratio is, or if how your job treats your body for a cushy college educated job, but that would be a waste of time, wouldn't it?
</QUOTE>
Yes, because my personal experience doesn't matter- the statistics do.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="hyperbolica" post_id="188202" time="1662576049" user_id="104">
Sorry, I don't watch Fox News. Mostly CBS. Still don't let them think for me.
I could have asked what your student loan to income ratio is, or if how your job treats your body for a cushy college educated job, but that would be a waste of time, wouldn't it?[/quote]
Yes, because my personal experience doesn't matter- the statistics do.
</QUOTE>
Statistics lie, dude. They never consider context. They say whatever you tell them to. The old saying goes "lies, damned lies, and statistics"...
Sorry, I don't watch Fox News. Mostly CBS. Still don't let them think for me.
I could have asked what your student loan to income ratio is, or if how your job treats your body for a cushy college educated job, but that would be a waste of time, wouldn't it?[/quote]
Yes, because my personal experience doesn't matter- the statistics do.
</QUOTE>
Statistics lie, dude. They never consider context. They say whatever you tell them to. The old saying goes "lies, damned lies, and statistics"...
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Just to be statistically clear so there's no regret... :weep:
<ATTACHMENT filename="Clipboard01.jpg" index="0">[attachment=0]Clipboard01.jpg</ATTACHMENT>
Doesn't sound like bitterness at all :good:
<ATTACHMENT filename="Clipboard01.jpg" index="0">
Doesn't sound like bitterness at all :good:
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
There's a Bureau of Labor Statistic that says women are poor recruits for STEM fields?
Or that they only do it because they have been guilted into it?
(it's not clear which was being asserted)
Or that they only do it because they have been guilted into it?
(it's not clear which was being asserted)
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="OneTon" post_id="188150" time="1662535497" user_id="13549">
It is worth noting that prior to WWII, students completing the eighth grade could balance a checkbook, accomplish simple book keeping, and write a coherent paragraph. We now have students entering college and university capable of doing none of the above.
[/quote]
Source? This sounds pretty made up to me.
Again, the average college degree job, whatever it is, is not going to destroy your body like construction, plumbing, car repair, etc. This isn't to say that we don't absolutely need those jobs and workers in droves, but it's a big drive for people to not do them.
</QUOTE>
Prior to WWII the "Book Keeper" was that era's "Trapper keeper", in other words, a backpack. Perfect for training future conscripts how to ruck march in the coming global war.
It took a genius and college degree to realize that the trapper keeper, which also goes into the book keeper, was a way to skim even more profit out of parents, and add even more weight to the training ruck sacks.
It is worth noting that prior to WWII, students completing the eighth grade could balance a checkbook, accomplish simple book keeping, and write a coherent paragraph. We now have students entering college and university capable of doing none of the above.
[/quote]
Source? This sounds pretty made up to me.
Again, the average college degree job, whatever it is, is not going to destroy your body like construction, plumbing, car repair, etc. This isn't to say that we don't absolutely need those jobs and workers in droves, but it's a big drive for people to not do them.
</QUOTE>
Prior to WWII the "Book Keeper" was that era's "Trapper keeper", in other words, a backpack. Perfect for training future conscripts how to ruck march in the coming global war.
It took a genius and college degree to realize that the trapper keeper, which also goes into the book keeper, was a way to skim even more profit out of parents, and add even more weight to the training ruck sacks.
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="OneTon" post_id="188150" time="1662535497" user_id="13549">
It is worth noting that prior to WWII, students completing the eighth grade could balance a checkbook, accomplish simple book keeping, and write a coherent paragraph. We now have students entering college and university capable of doing none of the above.
[/quote]
Source? This sounds pretty made up to me.
</QUOTE>
It might be true, but be an artifact of a truncated distribution. Not everyone made it all the way through 8th grade. In 1940 about 24% of young people had high school diplomas, 11% of the older cohort.
It is worth noting that prior to WWII, students completing the eighth grade could balance a checkbook, accomplish simple book keeping, and write a coherent paragraph. We now have students entering college and university capable of doing none of the above.
[/quote]
Source? This sounds pretty made up to me.
</QUOTE>
It might be true, but be an artifact of a truncated distribution. Not everyone made it all the way through 8th grade. In 1940 about 24% of young people had high school diplomas, 11% of the older cohort.
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
I think every young person pondering these decisions ought to read:
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=shop+class+as+soul+craft
Shop Class as Soul Craft, an Inquiry into the Value of Work, by Matthew Crawford.
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=shop+class+as+soul+craft
Shop Class as Soul Craft, an Inquiry into the Value of Work, by Matthew Crawford.
- GabrielRice
- Posts: 1496
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Who was asked? At what point in their lives? I was pretty worried about my choices when I first got out of school, but at this point I have no regrets at all.
I will always assert that college has value no matter what you study, and that correlation with what field you end up working in is almost totally irrelevant.
I will always assert that college has value no matter what you study, and that correlation with what field you end up working in is almost totally irrelevant.
- WilliamLang
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Nov 22, 2019
One of the biggest things I see on any job oriented posts on this board is a gigantic lack of actually talking to other people, especially younger people who are currently in school or about to go into school. There's so much "what I did" or "how it was" and very little interacting with the current reality of other people's lives.
The people I know and agree with the most on this board do interact with current students and younger professionals on a regular basis.
Also, to the original point, it's not surprising that people are unhappy in America, because, honestly, the country is pretty broken and largely anti-human. I love the potential here, but the results have been lacking at best.
And to Robcat's original bright side, that liberal arts education make you a more flexible employee, I have to admit that a belief of mine is that any school or program that teaches you to think, not just do, will give you the best odds to succeed at any field. But after teaching at around 150-200 schools from Pre-K to DMA level, I've found them to be rare. It usually comes down to individual teachers rather than a full top down program with good leadership.
The people I know and agree with the most on this board do interact with current students and younger professionals on a regular basis.
Also, to the original point, it's not surprising that people are unhappy in America, because, honestly, the country is pretty broken and largely anti-human. I love the potential here, but the results have been lacking at best.
And to Robcat's original bright side, that liberal arts education make you a more flexible employee, I have to admit that a belief of mine is that any school or program that teaches you to think, not just do, will give you the best odds to succeed at any field. But after teaching at around 150-200 schools from Pre-K to DMA level, I've found them to be rare. It usually comes down to individual teachers rather than a full top down program with good leadership.
- OneTon
- Posts: 757
- Joined: Nov 02, 2021
[quote="timothy42b"]I think every young person pondering these decisions ought to read:
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=shop+class+as+soul+craft
Shop Class as Soul Craft, an Inquiry into the Value of Work, by Matthew Crawford.[/quote]
Thanks Timothy. I will pick up a copy when I return Saturday and read it.
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=shop+class+as+soul+craft
Shop Class as Soul Craft, an Inquiry into the Value of Work, by Matthew Crawford.[/quote]
Thanks Timothy. I will pick up a copy when I return Saturday and read it.
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="WilliamLang"]One of the biggest things I see on any job oriented posts on this board is a gigantic lack of actually talking to other people, especially younger people who are currently in school or about to go into school. There's so much "what I did" or "how it was" and very little interacting with the current reality of other people's lives.[/quote]
When I was still working, we got a rare influx of several young engineers at the same time. For various reasons having any new young people didn't happen often. I set up monthly mentorship meetings, to give them an immediate peer group and help to assimilate them, but also to offer what guidance I and other successful long term staff could. However, we talked a good bit about the fact that what worked for me and my age group could not work for them, and they had to be creative with their path. The workplace had changed so much over my 30 years.
It's also worth reading Epstein's Range: Why Generalists Triumph in a Specialized World, which makes the case that flexibility is more valuable than a set of specific skills in the modern workplace. He has an interesting separation of "wild" problems that require creativity and tame ones that can be cookbook.
<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.amazon.com/Range-Generalist ... 4676&psc=1">https://www.amazon.com/Range-Generalists-Triumph-Specialized-World/dp/0735214506/ref=asc_df_0735214506/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=509159807707&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=126124936677661369&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9008605&hvtargid=pla-1188229854676&psc=1</LINK_TEXT>
I reference Amazon but most of the books I read are from the local library.
When I was still working, we got a rare influx of several young engineers at the same time. For various reasons having any new young people didn't happen often. I set up monthly mentorship meetings, to give them an immediate peer group and help to assimilate them, but also to offer what guidance I and other successful long term staff could. However, we talked a good bit about the fact that what worked for me and my age group could not work for them, and they had to be creative with their path. The workplace had changed so much over my 30 years.
And to Robcat's original bright side, that liberal arts education make you a more flexible employee, I have to admit that a belief of mine is that any school or program that teaches you to think, not just do, will give you the best odds to succeed at any field. But after teaching at around 150-200 schools from Pre-K to DMA level, I've found them to be rare. It usually comes down to individual teachers rather than a full top down program with good leadership.
It's also worth reading Epstein's Range: Why Generalists Triumph in a Specialized World, which makes the case that flexibility is more valuable than a set of specific skills in the modern workplace. He has an interesting separation of "wild" problems that require creativity and tame ones that can be cookbook.
<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.amazon.com/Range-Generalist ... 4676&psc=1">https://www.amazon.com/Range-Generalists-Triumph-Specialized-World/dp/0735214506/ref=asc_df_0735214506/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=509159807707&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=126124936677661369&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9008605&hvtargid=pla-1188229854676&psc=1</LINK_TEXT>
I reference Amazon but most of the books I read are from the local library.
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="OneTon"]<QUOTE author="timothy42b" post_id="188230" time="1662595298" user_id="211">
I think every young person pondering these decisions ought to read:
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=shop+class+as+soul+craft
Shop Class as Soul Craft, an Inquiry into the Value of Work, by Matthew Crawford.[/quote]
Thanks Timothy. I will pick up a copy when I return Saturday and read it.
</QUOTE>
This book made an impression on me and had direct application to some relatives.
The author is a PhD Philosopher who worked in think tanks then later changed careers to become a motorcycle mechanic. One of his points was that we often send people to college who are unlikely to finish, and who are not going to be happy with the career they end up with if they do.
I think every young person pondering these decisions ought to read:
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=shop+class+as+soul+craft
Shop Class as Soul Craft, an Inquiry into the Value of Work, by Matthew Crawford.[/quote]
Thanks Timothy. I will pick up a copy when I return Saturday and read it.
</QUOTE>
This book made an impression on me and had direct application to some relatives.
The author is a PhD Philosopher who worked in think tanks then later changed careers to become a motorcycle mechanic. One of his points was that we often send people to college who are unlikely to finish, and who are not going to be happy with the career they end up with if they do.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="timothy42b"]One of his points was that we often send people to college who are unlikely to finish, and who are not going to be happy with the career they end up with if they do.[/quote]
Right. This is part of my assertion that you can't just push people into fields. Especially STEM. It takes people with certain skills and a definite mind set to make it through a science, math or engineering degree.
Here are the classes a mechanical engineering student takes in undergrad (and mechanical is probably the simplest of the engineering fields). 50% drop out rate because people can't handle the course load. I had 2 years of music school prior to engineering coursework, so all of my liberal arts and electives were taken care of. Most of my classes were calculus based.
MATH
- calculus 1
- calculus 2
- calculus 3
- calculus 4
- matricies and boundary value problems
- differential equations
SCIENCE
- University physics 1 ("university" means it is calculus based)
- University physics 2
- University physics 3
- University physics 4
- University chemistry 1
- University chemistry 2
- science elective (I took Modern Physics - meaning Relativity and later)
ENGINEERING
- metal shop
- circuits
- design for manufacture
- programming 1
- programming 2
- CAD 1
- CAD 2
- applied statistics
- strength of materials
- statics
- stress analysis/FEA
- dynamics
- fluid dynamics
- thermodynamics
- turbomachinery
- senior design project
It wasn't a vacation.
On the other hand, I have to say that I have very rarely used any of this directly in my daily work. The stuff I use every day are issues like problem solving, organizing ideas, technical writing, material selection, manufacturing processes...
Pushing people into STEM is a waste of resources. Evaluating aptitudes and interests is where it all has to start. Once you know who could succeed, then you can recruit.
Right. This is part of my assertion that you can't just push people into fields. Especially STEM. It takes people with certain skills and a definite mind set to make it through a science, math or engineering degree.
Here are the classes a mechanical engineering student takes in undergrad (and mechanical is probably the simplest of the engineering fields). 50% drop out rate because people can't handle the course load. I had 2 years of music school prior to engineering coursework, so all of my liberal arts and electives were taken care of. Most of my classes were calculus based.
MATH
- calculus 1
- calculus 2
- calculus 3
- calculus 4
- matricies and boundary value problems
- differential equations
SCIENCE
- University physics 1 ("university" means it is calculus based)
- University physics 2
- University physics 3
- University physics 4
- University chemistry 1
- University chemistry 2
- science elective (I took Modern Physics - meaning Relativity and later)
ENGINEERING
- metal shop
- circuits
- design for manufacture
- programming 1
- programming 2
- CAD 1
- CAD 2
- applied statistics
- strength of materials
- statics
- stress analysis/FEA
- dynamics
- fluid dynamics
- thermodynamics
- turbomachinery
- senior design project
It wasn't a vacation.
On the other hand, I have to say that I have very rarely used any of this directly in my daily work. The stuff I use every day are issues like problem solving, organizing ideas, technical writing, material selection, manufacturing processes...
Pushing people into STEM is a waste of resources. Evaluating aptitudes and interests is where it all has to start. Once you know who could succeed, then you can recruit.
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
Pushing people into STEM is a waste of resources. Evaluating aptitudes and interests is where it all has to start. Once you know who could succeed, then you can recruit.
I know a lot of people who thought this, did a humanities degree, and then later realized that they actually did have the aptitude for STEM. I'm bias of course, because that's exactly my experience. But I'm by no means alone, and that is especially true of some of my female colleagues who have expressed similar stories of their own path to where they are now.
If anything, it highlights how curricula are often misaligned with things that are actually useful for employment and how students are often seeking vocational assistance first and, for lack of a better term, edification second - the opposite of how undergraduate coursework is typically structured. I haven't done any calculus since my final exam for calculus several years ago. I also was not exposed to programming until two years into my coursework. Starting from tasks that people would actually do and moving outward to things that might be tangentially beneficial seems to be a much better approach to getting people into fields they might find interesting and are also in high demand, rather than treating supplemental information not necessary for the job as a pre-requisite.
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="hyperbolica"]It wasn't a vacation.
On the other hand, I have to say that I have very rarely used any of this directly in my daily work. The stuff I use every day are issues like problem solving, organizing ideas, technical writing, material selection, manufacturing processes...[/quote]
Dang, you didn't have to do heat transfer? Your ME was a lot easier than mine. <smiley>
I'm the only engineer I know that's ever used calculus after graduation, and that was for one problem almost 30 years ago. But we make everybody take it, because we don't want you in our private and decent paying club unless you can pass it.
Of course there are three ways to pass: be smart, work hard, cheat. Being facetious, but with that many options if you don't get through it you're probably not meant for STEM?
On the other hand, I have to say that I have very rarely used any of this directly in my daily work. The stuff I use every day are issues like problem solving, organizing ideas, technical writing, material selection, manufacturing processes...[/quote]
Dang, you didn't have to do heat transfer? Your ME was a lot easier than mine. <smiley>
I'm the only engineer I know that's ever used calculus after graduation, and that was for one problem almost 30 years ago. But we make everybody take it, because we don't want you in our private and decent paying club unless you can pass it.
Of course there are three ways to pass: be smart, work hard, cheat. Being facetious, but with that many options if you don't get through it you're probably not meant for STEM?
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
In my class, 50% of the people transferred or flunked out in the course of 4 years. This was just the reality. A lot of people are not prepared for what they find. Whether the curriculum matches the actual job is a bigger fight than I want to take on.
I did some work with the University of Virginia, and they were reluctant to have "CAD training" on campus, because "that's trade training stuff, not education". I considered that a very narrow and elitist view. In reality engineers need to be proficient in CAD just to do the daily work.
There is a degree path called "engineering technician" which has most of the same material as the full engineering degree, but without the calculus, so it's very watered down. A lot of people who transfer out of the full engineering program go into this line of study. Graduates are considered technicians rather than engineers. Still STEM. You can't get an engineering license without the calc, though.
I did some work with the University of Virginia, and they were reluctant to have "CAD training" on campus, because "that's trade training stuff, not education". I considered that a very narrow and elitist view. In reality engineers need to be proficient in CAD just to do the daily work.
There is a degree path called "engineering technician" which has most of the same material as the full engineering degree, but without the calculus, so it's very watered down. A lot of people who transfer out of the full engineering program go into this line of study. Graduates are considered technicians rather than engineers. Still STEM. You can't get an engineering license without the calc, though.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
I think the calculus prerequisite for programming is a holdover from when Programming was a specialization of Mathematics. Now Programming is its own field. There are some types of programs that make no use of calculus. I used to program a PLC to run a machine. No calculus there. I may have used calculus for other things, like figuring out settings for temperature or time, but for the PLC programming step was unnecessary. Programmers who use statistics often just take the formulae and apply them to data. The calculus needed to derive a statistical formula is unnecessary to the programmer. It might be more important to the person writing the specifications for the program, but not the coder.
Lots of things we study in college are holdovers from an earlier age. Still, a certain amount of Humanities is a good thing for a STEM geek. Makes them easier to work with; especially for non-geeks.
Language skills are useful for everybody. At some time you have to either write a report on what you found, document a program you did, or write a manual on how to use something. You don't have to be Ernest Hemingway, but the ability to write a cogent sentence is always valid.
Lots of things we study in college are holdovers from an earlier age. Still, a certain amount of Humanities is a good thing for a STEM geek. Makes them easier to work with; especially for non-geeks.
Language skills are useful for everybody. At some time you have to either write a report on what you found, document a program you did, or write a manual on how to use something. You don't have to be Ernest Hemingway, but the ability to write a cogent sentence is always valid.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="timothy42b"]Dang, you didn't have to do heat transfer? Your ME was a lot easier than mine. <smiley>[/quote]
Heat transfer was in there, probably with thermo and fluids.
[quote="timothy42b"]
I'm the only engineer I know that's ever used calculus after graduation, and that was for one problem almost 30 years ago. But we make everybody take it, because we don't want you in our private and decent paying club unless you can pass it.
Of course there are three ways to pass: be smart, work hard, cheat. Being facetious, but with that many options if you don't get through it you're probably not meant for STEM?[/quote]
I actually did use calc once. I created an impact test rig and had to calculate the impulse on a plastic watch when on the end of a pendulum dropped from various angles, and its equivalent when dropped in a linear fall.
You actually have to understand the concept of calculus in order to understand stuff like acceleration, area under a curve, volume of irregular shapes, and stuff like that. We can't just send people out who don't understand what we program the computers to do. I don't think we can get rid of calculus altogether, but 4 years of it was a bit much.
I worked my way through, alternating quarters of school and internships. Even during school, I was still working a couple of part time jobs. Looking back, I took on too much, and kind of suffered for it.
Heat transfer was in there, probably with thermo and fluids.
[quote="timothy42b"]
I'm the only engineer I know that's ever used calculus after graduation, and that was for one problem almost 30 years ago. But we make everybody take it, because we don't want you in our private and decent paying club unless you can pass it.
Of course there are three ways to pass: be smart, work hard, cheat. Being facetious, but with that many options if you don't get through it you're probably not meant for STEM?[/quote]
I actually did use calc once. I created an impact test rig and had to calculate the impulse on a plastic watch when on the end of a pendulum dropped from various angles, and its equivalent when dropped in a linear fall.
You actually have to understand the concept of calculus in order to understand stuff like acceleration, area under a curve, volume of irregular shapes, and stuff like that. We can't just send people out who don't understand what we program the computers to do. I don't think we can get rid of calculus altogether, but 4 years of it was a bit much.
I worked my way through, alternating quarters of school and internships. Even during school, I was still working a couple of part time jobs. Looking back, I took on too much, and kind of suffered for it.
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="hyperbolica"]<QUOTE author="timothy42b" post_id="188256" time="1662635606" user_id="211">
One of his points was that we often send people to college who are unlikely to finish, and who are not going to be happy with the career they end up with if they do.[/quote]
Right. This is part of my assertion that you can't just push people into fields. Especially STEM. ….
…
Pushing people into STEM is a waste of resources. Evaluating aptitudes and interests is where it all has to start. Once you know who could succeed, then you can recruit.
</QUOTE>
Good thing that historically there are no racial or gender stereotypes that possibly influence evaluation of aptitudes and interests…
That said, interesting milestone at Michigan Tech, 30% women!
[url]<LINK_TEXT text=" https://www.mlive.com/news/2022/09/mic ... women.html"> https://www.mlive.com/news/2022/09/michigan-tech-approaches-an-enrollment-milestone-30-percent-women.html</LINK_TEXT>
This includes this gem of a quote:
Cheers,
Andy
One of his points was that we often send people to college who are unlikely to finish, and who are not going to be happy with the career they end up with if they do.[/quote]
Right. This is part of my assertion that you can't just push people into fields. Especially STEM. ….
…
Pushing people into STEM is a waste of resources. Evaluating aptitudes and interests is where it all has to start. Once you know who could succeed, then you can recruit.
</QUOTE>
Good thing that historically there are no racial or gender stereotypes that possibly influence evaluation of aptitudes and interests…
That said, interesting milestone at Michigan Tech, 30% women!
This includes this gem of a quote:
Kristin Arola grew up in Dollar Bay, just across the Portage Canal from Michigan Tech’s campus in Houghton. When she was a high school senior, she said, the overabundance of college men was “awesome.”
“The saying among women was, ‘The odds are good, but the goods are odd,’” she said.
Cheers,
Andy
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
My regrets about my uni days are, at age 67, tend towards feeling poorly educated despite 2 uni degrees. I wish I knew a bit more history, biology, science. A bit more French. I wish I knew what a slide rule is for.
But, being retired, I have time to read. I have stack of books on my nightstand, most half read, I must admit. I find the Oxford A Very Short Introduction series very helpful.
But, being retired, I have time to read. I have stack of books on my nightstand, most half read, I must admit. I find the Oxford A Very Short Introduction series very helpful.
- spencercarran
- Posts: 689
- Joined: Oct 17, 2020
[quote="hyperbolica"]<QUOTE author="spencercarran" post_id="188194" time="1662573612" user_id="10390">
No, that really is a fact. Unless you're going to argue that the Bureau of Labor Statistics is cooking the books.[/quote]
Music professor with a doctorate: ~$96k <LINK_TEXT text="https://www.salary.com/research/salary/ ... sic-salary">https://www.salary.com/research/salary/benchmark/professor-music-salary</LINK_TEXT>
My brother with no degree working at a media company: $150k
You know what you can do with your statistics.
</QUOTE>
I have never understood the mentality that's confronted with measurable, observed facts and just says "Nuh-uh!"
Given such a gulf in approaches to making sense of the world around us, it seems unlikely we would be able to have any sort of a productive conversation.
No, that really is a fact. Unless you're going to argue that the Bureau of Labor Statistics is cooking the books.[/quote]
Music professor with a doctorate: ~$96k <LINK_TEXT text="https://www.salary.com/research/salary/ ... sic-salary">https://www.salary.com/research/salary/benchmark/professor-music-salary</LINK_TEXT>
My brother with no degree working at a media company: $150k
You know what you can do with your statistics.
</QUOTE>
I have never understood the mentality that's confronted with measurable, observed facts and just says "Nuh-uh!"
Given such a gulf in approaches to making sense of the world around us, it seems unlikely we would be able to have any sort of a productive conversation.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="spencercarran"]Given such a gulf in approaches to making sense of the world around us, it seems unlikely we would be able to have any sort of a productive conversation.[/quote]
If corona virus has taught us nothing, it shows that "facts" are often mis-stated, or corrected later - employment stats are routinely corrected after they have been used to establish a narrative. Even when correct, statistics are very often mis-interpreted - the stats in the OP include people who have dropped out, which would be significantly different from the stats of people who have finished degree programs, plus, you don't know what the overall range is - are there groups more dissatisfied than people who started arts degrees, or are there groups who are more satisfied than engineers? We don't have any of this information. The head of the article just mentioned people who are dissatisfied, and then talks about engineers, without differentiating. So what do the facts say about that? There isn't enough information to draw any conclusion, and there are enough problems with the facts as stated to use them to form any kind of real conclusion.
If you read academic papers frequently, you know the one thing they love to do is to prove each other wrong. Sometimes with the same data. Try to read academic studies of nutrition or drug effects or even astronomy. If there is questionable study data, all I need is an amateur trombone player to interpret it for me to really give me confidence. So you'll excuse me if I don't trust trombone chat's interpretation of partial information selected to support a bias.
If corona virus has taught us nothing, it shows that "facts" are often mis-stated, or corrected later - employment stats are routinely corrected after they have been used to establish a narrative. Even when correct, statistics are very often mis-interpreted - the stats in the OP include people who have dropped out, which would be significantly different from the stats of people who have finished degree programs, plus, you don't know what the overall range is - are there groups more dissatisfied than people who started arts degrees, or are there groups who are more satisfied than engineers? We don't have any of this information. The head of the article just mentioned people who are dissatisfied, and then talks about engineers, without differentiating. So what do the facts say about that? There isn't enough information to draw any conclusion, and there are enough problems with the facts as stated to use them to form any kind of real conclusion.
If you read academic papers frequently, you know the one thing they love to do is to prove each other wrong. Sometimes with the same data. Try to read academic studies of nutrition or drug effects or even astronomy. If there is questionable study data, all I need is an amateur trombone player to interpret it for me to really give me confidence. So you'll excuse me if I don't trust trombone chat's interpretation of partial information selected to support a bias.
- dougm
- Posts: 34
- Joined: Jan 08, 2020
Interesting stuff in this thread. I am an industrial engineer. In HS I was trying to decide between engineering, music ed or music performance. I watched my HS band director for two weeks during marching band season. I kept track of his time at school, and thought perhaps I did not want to do that. My friend, two years older, was the best trombone player I knew. He was at Indiana University, and practicing 3-5 hours a day. When he came home on break he got together and I was blown away by his playing ability. I decided on engineering as my major because I was good at math and science, and I did not know if I could work as hard as would be required for trombone performance, and the potential for no work once complete. (My friend auditioned for 8-9 years before winning a "living wage" position with an orchestra.)
I dislike "STEM" - it is no different than schools encouraging girls to take math and science courses in the 1970's and 80's. But when you put a label on it, that allows "organizations" to solicit/take money from businesses in the name of the activity, rather than the businesses funding numerous things, including music. Has STEM increased the number of women applying for engineering jobs in our area? Not over the past 10-20 years.
College was explained to me back in 1980 as a time for the student to develop independent, rational thought, to understand the "world" and the like. My son is in college, and I can tell you that is not a definition for the 2020's for college.
I play professionally a lot. I play with a number of folks that have advanced music degrees. They all want to be involved with music education or full-time playing, and I *think* all of them would be very good (or better) at it. But there are not enough jobs for them to do that. This contributes heavily to their college degree regret. Some stick with it, some get a job in the field paying a living wage, and some move to splinter fields associated with the arts. And yes, some leave the field and do something unrelated.
The biggest issue with "College Degree Regrets" is if the person has a job, in their field, that they enjoy. That can be the nature of the job, the employer, the pay, or the location as much as anything. College is a business, and they need to keep their pipeline full. This also plays a major role in all of this.
Have a good day!
Doug
I dislike "STEM" - it is no different than schools encouraging girls to take math and science courses in the 1970's and 80's. But when you put a label on it, that allows "organizations" to solicit/take money from businesses in the name of the activity, rather than the businesses funding numerous things, including music. Has STEM increased the number of women applying for engineering jobs in our area? Not over the past 10-20 years.
College was explained to me back in 1980 as a time for the student to develop independent, rational thought, to understand the "world" and the like. My son is in college, and I can tell you that is not a definition for the 2020's for college.
I play professionally a lot. I play with a number of folks that have advanced music degrees. They all want to be involved with music education or full-time playing, and I *think* all of them would be very good (or better) at it. But there are not enough jobs for them to do that. This contributes heavily to their college degree regret. Some stick with it, some get a job in the field paying a living wage, and some move to splinter fields associated with the arts. And yes, some leave the field and do something unrelated.
The biggest issue with "College Degree Regrets" is if the person has a job, in their field, that they enjoy. That can be the nature of the job, the employer, the pay, or the location as much as anything. College is a business, and they need to keep their pipeline full. This also plays a major role in all of this.
Have a good day!
Doug
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Note that a lot of the Education folks are changing the acronym to STEAM, adding Arts to the mix. While I applaud the study of Arts as a minor, the needs of the job market are more STEM oriented. No artists need apply. I think that artists can make a contribution with Web design (fine arts like painting or especially drawing) and maybe we can get more jobs for musicians in the Video Game market (which seems to have supplanted Television as the major entertainment venue).
We could get things moving better if the Government gets into some kind of program like we had in the 1960s (Man on the Moon). We have some areas that could benefit from a major Government push, but they don't have the same cachet as the moon shot.
We could get things moving better if the Government gets into some kind of program like we had in the 1960s (Man on the Moon). We have some areas that could benefit from a major Government push, but they don't have the same cachet as the moon shot.
- musicofnote
- Posts: 367
- Joined: Jun 03, 2022
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- Glennlewis
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Jul 20, 2022
University is not a trade school, and not all majors of study lead to “Professional” degrees. Qualified electricians, plumbers, erc… find jobs in their chosen field. Doctors and engineers find jobs in their chosen field. Lawyers usually have a choice to work professionally in their chosen field.
Everything else is a journey to finding meaningful employment. In almost all cases everyone is on a personal journey to find a meaningful life. This regrer of chosen major seems to me to be the grass is always (isn’t always) greener sentiment.
Everything else is a journey to finding meaningful employment. In almost all cases everyone is on a personal journey to find a meaningful life. This regrer of chosen major seems to me to be the grass is always (isn’t always) greener sentiment.
- cboalesjr
- Posts: 37
- Joined: Jan 04, 2023
Realize I'm late to this thread, but appreciated the comments. My degree (1966) was in social studies, but with a psychology concentration. I used the psychology every bit as much in the automotive manufacturer sales arena as I did as a social worker/supervisor. One certainly needs good interpersonal skills in virtually any field, and exposure to the Humanities provides perspective. That bigger-world perspective then informs one's ability to grasp larger issues. That said, I just wish I had kept playing my damn trombone!
- MrHCinDE
- Posts: 1039
- Joined: Jul 01, 2018
I’m regularly still using some of the techniques I learnt during my engineering studies 20 years ago. The soft skills and some parts of my job could have been learned vocationally but at some point a solid theoretical grounding in mathematics, system analysis and scientific programming is pretty useful. My only regret is not paying a bit more attention in the mechanical and civil engineering lectures in the first couple of years. My course was two years of all engineering students taking the same modules, then narrowing down in the 3rd and 4th year (I went the electronic eng. route). As it turns out, I often work closely with civil and mechanical engineers and could do with a better understanding of what they’re on about.
If I remember it right around 50% of the graduates from my course went off to work as non-engineers, mainly in the finance sector so although an engineering degree can be a route into the profession, it doesn‘t have to be.
If I remember it right around 50% of the graduates from my course went off to work as non-engineers, mainly in the finance sector so although an engineering degree can be a route into the profession, it doesn‘t have to be.
- BigBadandBass
- Posts: 270
- Joined: Feb 13, 2020
As someone still in college, I thought I would give some thoughts on this whole thread.
Personally, I don’t really regret my education but I regret getting this far into it. For context I did 4 years at a liberal arts school and am now currently finishing up my 2nd year of my masters at a top 10 music conservatory. Music for me was always the fun thing to do and I’m pretty sure it was a beer commercial that said “if you love what you do, you’ll never work a day in your life” and so I’m following that line I went really hard into it and still do. That line, like most fiction has some roots in the truth, but also has a lot of roots in BS.
There seems to be a lot of misconceptions in this group that kids these days are lazy and or, don’t know the hard life skills, sure some don’t, but a lot do and trust me no one is pushing anyone to do a degree field, people are being actively pushed out of them. I watched and see wonderful female musicians get title IX’d, objectified and questioned about their intelligence incredibly often, I know someone who is active just finishing her degree and transitioning into an office job because live in a masterclass a tenured teacher told her she didn’t “have the hips, chest, voice or attitude” to sing opera. And to counterpoint, my roommate in my undergrad studied physics, his favorite teacher and advisor left the field entirely because of sexist remarks made by other professors about them, to students. People aren’t being pushed anywhere, certainly the arts, they’re being pushed away.
And yes, there aren’t a lot of hard skills being taught, but no offense to ya’ll, I don’t need to balance a checkbook, don’t have one and don’t need to know how to file taxes, I’ve got TurboTax or Freetaxusa. Why would I need to learn how to change the tire of a car or change the oil when I can’t even afford to own one, or live in a walkable city where it’s a burden? Also, counterpoint, the free access of information that we as people have today means we don’t need to spend time being taught it, I have in fact changed a car tire on the side of the road and you know how I knew how to do it? YouTube.
I don’t really regret my education or hate the system, other than the fact it is so ungodly expensive and all that money goes into lining the pockets of executives, not renovating buildings to make them more accommodating and fix issues (we have a practice room here with black mold in the ceiling been that way for 2 years, they just repaint it everytime someone complains) or, paying my teacher more. I have also become a pretty well rounded person because of all my degrees, not because they’re focused on getting me a job, but because they’re focused on making me a better person, it’s the classic argument that no one here seems to be mentioning:
Is education for elevation of the self or assimilation into the whole?
Some of you here are using the exact talking points of those who a while back argued for Amazon to start trade schools so “degenerate” and “not promising” students could get a head start on being in a trade. And not to say there aren’t advantages to trade work and having a highly specialized workforce, but, determining the value of someone else is not something we as humans should be doing, everyone should be entitled to the same opportunities, the same chance to go off and be a musician or a poet or plumber or factory worker. The system doesn’t do that and it’s not because it’s fair and just, it is the exact opposite. I knew a great bass trombonist who had to quit because he had a death in the family and all their income was lost, took a gap year to work and make up some money and when he got back to the school, they cut his scholarship by 80% so he could no longer afford it and fully went into the labor force to try again but lost the mojo and the motivation. The system defeated him and said because he had to leave school he was worth less than he was prior. We should all regret we have a system like that.
The system as I hope I’ve provided some insight into is broken, statistics don’t show that, they don’t live the lives we humans do and you can pump numbers all you want all day but it doesn’t do anything. To put it in trombone terms, if you can’t play out of the practice room, you can’t play it.
Getting back to me and regrets, I’ve worked hard at this thing, I work full time, take auditions, classes, school ensembles and all that. For context today on 3/23/23 I have a quartet coaching (1.5 hours), quintet coaching (1 hour), orchestra section coaching (2 hours), rehearsal for a gig (2 hours) and a half shift at work (office admin job) and a class. This usually is my light day, but it all my rehearsals needs to be moved, so here we are. I don’t regret this, it’s exactly what at one point that I wanted and it’s great. My schedule usually on any given day consists of 2-3 hours of class, 3-5 hours of practice, 2 hours of rehearsal and 2-8 hours of work and about 45-60 minutes of commuting via subway. If you’re doing the math right now I’ll save you the trouble, every day except Saturday I am up at 7:30 am on average and going to bed at 1 am. Again, I don’t regret this, I love being busy and I would say being a musician has given me the ability to manage this time well, I had a similar schedule in my undergrad and was also the head RA of a building and ran social media for our music department. it’s great, I’m dreading graduating because I love the structure and the fact I’m always doing something, everything is guided.
What do I regret is that I have to constantly defend all this, especially to people who aren’t in it. Being a student right now sucks, post-covid education is awful, I’ve done some lessons with some really terrible students (personality wise, not playing) and worked with some overworked people who spend all their free time drinking to forget and it seems on a daily basis get asked why the heck I would even go to college and or be a student. I regret that I chose a field and did school at a time where people would rather see me as a cog in the machine than a person, school and such for me was for my humanity to better myself as a person and to set up a structure that would show me how to do me, but better. I’m pretty sure I could pay off my student debt if I had a dollar for every time I hear the statement “well what are you going to do with a degree like that” or “why didn’t you go into Stem? That’s where all the jobs are, you wanna be a waiter for the rest of your life?” The fact that that’s my situation and that I walked into that is something I regret.
I apologize for how much of a tonal nightmare this is to read, my creative writing teacher would have a field day with this, and for all you grammar police that are going to try and tell me I need to write better, thanks. This was a rushed response after reading this thread on the subway this morning and while waiting for my 9 am to start
Personally, I don’t really regret my education but I regret getting this far into it. For context I did 4 years at a liberal arts school and am now currently finishing up my 2nd year of my masters at a top 10 music conservatory. Music for me was always the fun thing to do and I’m pretty sure it was a beer commercial that said “if you love what you do, you’ll never work a day in your life” and so I’m following that line I went really hard into it and still do. That line, like most fiction has some roots in the truth, but also has a lot of roots in BS.
There seems to be a lot of misconceptions in this group that kids these days are lazy and or, don’t know the hard life skills, sure some don’t, but a lot do and trust me no one is pushing anyone to do a degree field, people are being actively pushed out of them. I watched and see wonderful female musicians get title IX’d, objectified and questioned about their intelligence incredibly often, I know someone who is active just finishing her degree and transitioning into an office job because live in a masterclass a tenured teacher told her she didn’t “have the hips, chest, voice or attitude” to sing opera. And to counterpoint, my roommate in my undergrad studied physics, his favorite teacher and advisor left the field entirely because of sexist remarks made by other professors about them, to students. People aren’t being pushed anywhere, certainly the arts, they’re being pushed away.
And yes, there aren’t a lot of hard skills being taught, but no offense to ya’ll, I don’t need to balance a checkbook, don’t have one and don’t need to know how to file taxes, I’ve got TurboTax or Freetaxusa. Why would I need to learn how to change the tire of a car or change the oil when I can’t even afford to own one, or live in a walkable city where it’s a burden? Also, counterpoint, the free access of information that we as people have today means we don’t need to spend time being taught it, I have in fact changed a car tire on the side of the road and you know how I knew how to do it? YouTube.
I don’t really regret my education or hate the system, other than the fact it is so ungodly expensive and all that money goes into lining the pockets of executives, not renovating buildings to make them more accommodating and fix issues (we have a practice room here with black mold in the ceiling been that way for 2 years, they just repaint it everytime someone complains) or, paying my teacher more. I have also become a pretty well rounded person because of all my degrees, not because they’re focused on getting me a job, but because they’re focused on making me a better person, it’s the classic argument that no one here seems to be mentioning:
Is education for elevation of the self or assimilation into the whole?
Some of you here are using the exact talking points of those who a while back argued for Amazon to start trade schools so “degenerate” and “not promising” students could get a head start on being in a trade. And not to say there aren’t advantages to trade work and having a highly specialized workforce, but, determining the value of someone else is not something we as humans should be doing, everyone should be entitled to the same opportunities, the same chance to go off and be a musician or a poet or plumber or factory worker. The system doesn’t do that and it’s not because it’s fair and just, it is the exact opposite. I knew a great bass trombonist who had to quit because he had a death in the family and all their income was lost, took a gap year to work and make up some money and when he got back to the school, they cut his scholarship by 80% so he could no longer afford it and fully went into the labor force to try again but lost the mojo and the motivation. The system defeated him and said because he had to leave school he was worth less than he was prior. We should all regret we have a system like that.
The system as I hope I’ve provided some insight into is broken, statistics don’t show that, they don’t live the lives we humans do and you can pump numbers all you want all day but it doesn’t do anything. To put it in trombone terms, if you can’t play out of the practice room, you can’t play it.
Getting back to me and regrets, I’ve worked hard at this thing, I work full time, take auditions, classes, school ensembles and all that. For context today on 3/23/23 I have a quartet coaching (1.5 hours), quintet coaching (1 hour), orchestra section coaching (2 hours), rehearsal for a gig (2 hours) and a half shift at work (office admin job) and a class. This usually is my light day, but it all my rehearsals needs to be moved, so here we are. I don’t regret this, it’s exactly what at one point that I wanted and it’s great. My schedule usually on any given day consists of 2-3 hours of class, 3-5 hours of practice, 2 hours of rehearsal and 2-8 hours of work and about 45-60 minutes of commuting via subway. If you’re doing the math right now I’ll save you the trouble, every day except Saturday I am up at 7:30 am on average and going to bed at 1 am. Again, I don’t regret this, I love being busy and I would say being a musician has given me the ability to manage this time well, I had a similar schedule in my undergrad and was also the head RA of a building and ran social media for our music department. it’s great, I’m dreading graduating because I love the structure and the fact I’m always doing something, everything is guided.
What do I regret is that I have to constantly defend all this, especially to people who aren’t in it. Being a student right now sucks, post-covid education is awful, I’ve done some lessons with some really terrible students (personality wise, not playing) and worked with some overworked people who spend all their free time drinking to forget and it seems on a daily basis get asked why the heck I would even go to college and or be a student. I regret that I chose a field and did school at a time where people would rather see me as a cog in the machine than a person, school and such for me was for my humanity to better myself as a person and to set up a structure that would show me how to do me, but better. I’m pretty sure I could pay off my student debt if I had a dollar for every time I hear the statement “well what are you going to do with a degree like that” or “why didn’t you go into Stem? That’s where all the jobs are, you wanna be a waiter for the rest of your life?” The fact that that’s my situation and that I walked into that is something I regret.
I apologize for how much of a tonal nightmare this is to read, my creative writing teacher would have a field day with this, and for all you grammar police that are going to try and tell me I need to write better, thanks. This was a rushed response after reading this thread on the subway this morning and while waiting for my 9 am to start
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Yeah, the music education system makes you pay big for a ticket into an oversaturated career field. It's as simple as that.
You can get so much out of an education, it can take you so many places, but at the end of the day, a music degree in trombone performance is ... Well....
You shouldn't defend your education choices or what you're doing. The results will do that for you.
You can get so much out of an education, it can take you so many places, but at the end of the day, a music degree in trombone performance is ... Well....
You shouldn't defend your education choices or what you're doing. The results will do that for you.