King 4B-F
- dxhall
- Posts: 156
- Joined: Sep 14, 2018
There’s a nice used King 4B-F for sale near me at a good price. Any opinions on the horn? Should I keep looking for a Bach 42?
- RichEKelly
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
I never liked the 42 I had in college. Sold it and played king small bores the next 30 years. Until I joined an Orchestra and picked up a 4B-F. It was so easy to play, and easy to hold with the thumb over the brace. I love the horn, but have trouble with the weight of the large bore.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
I wanted a 4B-F when I was in High School. When I bought a trombone I instead bought a 7B (similar setup but a double trigger bass). Love it to death. When my Yamaha 682 was having a bell transplant I played a King 5B. Liked it a lot too. Then I got a silver plated 4B-F. Best concert band horn I ever owned. Sold it to a young lady who played it a lot better than I ever did.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
Where do you plan on playing it?
The 4B is a good horn, but doesn't fit in the average section very well.
The 4B is a good horn, but doesn't fit in the average section very well.
- Geordie
- Posts: 349
- Joined: Mar 30, 2018
I love my 4B/F. Used it as 4th bone in a concert type band set up. Have played bass bone parts on it in 4th section brass band too, not it’s natural role I guess but it was fine. Other people here will have a view about its utility as an orchestral horn. It’s large bore should be suitable but it’s contribution might depend on what it is blending with. Love the sound of it, might be good for receitaks?
- skaskaster
- Posts: 29
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I have one from mid 70s, with the "Sonorous" engraving on the bell. Very good instrument, not so heavy like bach 42. But remember the golden rule - try before buy.
- dxhall
- Posts: 156
- Joined: Sep 14, 2018
Thanks for the replies. I'm meeting the seller Saturday morning. Anything I should be looking for? He's asking $1,000, says it's in excellent shape. It looks pristine in the photographs.
- Markinsky
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Oct 07, 2020
This thread is very old however perhaps someone will clarify my question. It seems that King made 2 trigger arrangements for the 4b. The one I have is the trigger in front of the brace so there is no place to hook ones thumb. Very much like an 88h set-up.It uses a string linkage. However there is another set up where the thumb can wrap around the brace. It has a paddle type trigger and perhaps a mechanical linkage. Which set-up came first and when did the set-ups change?
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Markinsky"]This thread is very old however perhaps someone will clarify my question. It seems that King made 2 trigger arrangements for the 4b. The one I have is the trigger in front of the brace so there is no place to hook ones thumb. Very much like an 88h set-up.It uses a string linkage. However there is another set up where the thumb can wrap around the brace. It has a paddle type trigger and perhaps a mechanical linkage. Which set-up came first and when did the set-ups change?[/quote]
Don't know when the change was made (though I suspect it was during the Conn-Selmer era), but the thumb-over-brace was the original configuration.
Don't know when the change was made (though I suspect it was during the Conn-Selmer era), but the thumb-over-brace was the original configuration.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
The original King 4B (and 5B, 7B, and 8B) have a smooth sweep of F attachment tubing, allow brace between thumb and forefinger, and a string linkage. This was still the standard when I bought my 7B in 1983.
The newer design has two bends in the F-attachment tubing coming out of the valve and works more like a Conn 88H.
The newer design has two bends in the F-attachment tubing coming out of the valve and works more like a Conn 88H.
- Markinsky
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Oct 07, 2020
Thank you for the clarification. So the original set-up was more comfortable and ergonomic? Why did they change the newer set-up where there is no place to wrap the thumb? The newer design is hard to hold up for any extended period.
- chromebone
- Posts: 454
- Joined: Apr 08, 2018
[quote="Markinsky"]Thank you for the clarification. So the original set-up was more comfortable and ergonomic? Why did they change the newer set-up where there is no place to wrap the thumb? The newer design is hard to hold up for any extended period.[/quote]
Chuck Ward told me the change was made in the early 80’s at the request of players like Allen Kofsky. Most players seemed to prefer the brace in back of the hand setup, such as they are on all horns now. The problem was the f attachment wrap had to be changed from the shepherd’s crook style sweep to the more squared off design to accommodate the change, and some feel it made playing through the valve a little more stuffy. One hallmark of Kings is that the bore size stays the same through the wraps, as opposed to most where the bore size gets larger, and the original design accounted for that. Personally, I’ve played the newer style wraps and they seem fine to me.
Keep in mind the 4B came in a few different flavors through the years, yellow brass, sterling silver, and the later ones were gold brass. My preference is for the early gold brass with the shepherd’s crook wrap. Those were from the late 70’s/early 80’s and have the same annealing process to the bell as the Benge 190.
Chuck Ward told me the change was made in the early 80’s at the request of players like Allen Kofsky. Most players seemed to prefer the brace in back of the hand setup, such as they are on all horns now. The problem was the f attachment wrap had to be changed from the shepherd’s crook style sweep to the more squared off design to accommodate the change, and some feel it made playing through the valve a little more stuffy. One hallmark of Kings is that the bore size stays the same through the wraps, as opposed to most where the bore size gets larger, and the original design accounted for that. Personally, I’ve played the newer style wraps and they seem fine to me.
Keep in mind the 4B came in a few different flavors through the years, yellow brass, sterling silver, and the later ones were gold brass. My preference is for the early gold brass with the shepherd’s crook wrap. Those were from the late 70’s/early 80’s and have the same annealing process to the bell as the Benge 190.
- justatrombonist
- Posts: 18
- Joined: Feb 14, 2025
If you really want to go with a good horn, go with the 4B. They are overall a nicer horn. If you really want a bach 42, you should look into the Omega, which is quite similar( in my opinion) but for a fraction of the price. If you would rather go for a good horn for a similar price, go for the 88H
- Macbone1
- Posts: 501
- Joined: Oct 01, 2019
I had a Bach 42B in college and was always fighting it to get up to volume in ensembles, and the high range was hard work too. Tried a 4B once and more recently a 5B. Great horns, easy response all the way up and down the range! Huge sound too. If the 5B had been for sale I would have picked it up on the spot.
- heldenbone
- Posts: 274
- Joined: Aug 21, 2018
I don't play my 4BF (1975 or so vintage) as much as I should, as I'm spending more time playing bass, but I can offer some "what to look for" advice that might help someone else.
Mine played well when I received it, but was improved by having the bell cut and threaded. I also benefitted from changing from a 5G to a 5GS. The trombone just sang more easily with the 5GS, more like it played with the included King 29. Using the 29 was a non-starter due to the punitive rim.
And, one caveat: Check the rotor knuckles for any wrinkles or crimps. Kings are not the most structurally sturdy trombones ever built. A couple times being knocked over on a trombone stand, or a few years of being slammed down too hard on that old Hamilton can cause a crimp in the tenon-side rotor knuckle. My repair tech was able to (carefully) tease the knuckle back into shape without it splitting. I'm certain there was some work hardening as a result of his ministrations.
Good luck, and enjoy your 4BF. You'll likely be the only kid on your block playing one.
Mine played well when I received it, but was improved by having the bell cut and threaded. I also benefitted from changing from a 5G to a 5GS. The trombone just sang more easily with the 5GS, more like it played with the included King 29. Using the 29 was a non-starter due to the punitive rim.
And, one caveat: Check the rotor knuckles for any wrinkles or crimps. Kings are not the most structurally sturdy trombones ever built. A couple times being knocked over on a trombone stand, or a few years of being slammed down too hard on that old Hamilton can cause a crimp in the tenon-side rotor knuckle. My repair tech was able to (carefully) tease the knuckle back into shape without it splitting. I'm certain there was some work hardening as a result of his ministrations.
Good luck, and enjoy your 4BF. You'll likely be the only kid on your block playing one.
- henrysa
- Posts: 108
- Joined: Sep 26, 2022
I have a Silver Sonorous 4Bf from circa 1973. What is the benefit of cutting and threading the bell?
- HawaiiTromboneGuy
- Posts: 1025
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
Here’s an old photo of when myself and section partner were both playing 4BFSS. My ‘70s model on the left, and her anniversary model on the right. Wish I still had it!
- heldenbone
- Posts: 274
- Joined: Aug 21, 2018
[quote="henrysa"]I have a Silver Sonorous 4Bf from circa 1973. What is the benefit of cutting and threading the bell?[/quote]
I found it easier to play loudly without losing the color to unrestrained brightness. Soft dynamics were unchanged as near I could tell. And then there is that nifty violin case...
I found it easier to play loudly without losing the color to unrestrained brightness. Soft dynamics were unchanged as near I could tell. And then there is that nifty violin case...