Dual radius tuning slide
- norbie2018
- Posts: 1051
- Joined: Apr 05, 2018
As I understand it Raths use them exclusively. Edwards' site states single radius slides are much more common for their customers. Are most large bore horns made with single radius tuning slides? If so, why? Edwards states dual radius make the high range easier and a quicker response but produce more of a compact sound. Is that sound more desirable in England where Raths are made, or does the rest of the horn offset the compactness of the dual radius tuning slide?
Thanks!
Thanks!
- bimmerman
- Posts: 188
- Joined: Apr 04, 2018
I haven't noticed a difference between the Edwards options, to be honest, but I'm also not a pro.
- blast
- Posts: 671
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Don't be sucked in by advertising hype. It is more about style than anything. Bach have used dual radius bends since forever. Conn not. King not. Do you hear the difference ? No.
Chris
Chris
- norbie2018
- Posts: 1051
- Joined: Apr 05, 2018
You likely have more experience in these things then I do, but I was under the impression that nearly any change made to an instrument had an effect on the sound the audience hears, the perception to the player re how the instrument plays, or both. Are you stating that in this case the dual vs single radius effects neither?
- whitbey
- Posts: 654
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I have two Edwards. One is for orchestra and band that plays more solid on hits and plays strong. It has a single radius slide. The other is more for pretty and fast. It has a dual radius slide. The difference is modest but real but yes the dual does articulate easier and faster. The single does allow more powerful hit and flow. The difference is a little smaller than a straight vs valve horn.
- blast
- Posts: 671
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Yes, everything makes a difference...... but less difference than a couple of hours practice. There it is. Articulations.... that's mostly about how you articulate.... sound.... that one is mostly concept.
Choose stuff you like the look of and the ease of playing of and work your socks off to make it great from your side.... that will work.
Trombones and mouthpieces don't DO anything.... the good stuff gets out of the way and lets YOU do things.
Chris
Choose stuff you like the look of and the ease of playing of and work your socks off to make it great from your side.... that will work.
Trombones and mouthpieces don't DO anything.... the good stuff gets out of the way and lets YOU do things.
Chris
- norbie2018
- Posts: 1051
- Joined: Apr 05, 2018
Fair enough. Thanks for your insight!
- blast
- Posts: 671
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Oh, I know... harsh and uncalled for..... come back to me in ten years and tell me it's not true.
Chris
Chris
- norbie2018
- Posts: 1051
- Joined: Apr 05, 2018
I was being sincere. I don't think suggesting practice as being the deciding factor is harsh nor uncalled for. You helped design an instrument which means you must know what you're talking about. Thanks again.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Hand slide crooks will make a much bigger difference. Especially varying the width.
- Jgittleson
- Posts: 255
- Joined: Jun 13, 2018
[quote="blast"]Yes, everything makes a difference...... but less difference than a couple of hours practice. There it is. Articulations.... that's mostly about how you articulate.... sound.... that one is mostly concept.
Choose stuff you like the look of and the ease of playing of and work your socks off to make it great from your side.... that will work.
Trombones and mouthpieces don't DO anything.... the good stuff gets out of the way and lets YOU do things.
Chris[/quote]
Yes and no. Different horns play differently. Just changing the material and thickness of ferrules can influence the properties of a horn. The best players in the world will sound different with a different set of variables on front of them, that has nothing to do with practice. Now, playing to the limits of your specific horn, yes, obviously that has to do with seat time on it.
Your statement about mouthpieces is utter bs. I can do things on certain mouthpieces that are simply beyond my ability on others, and why shouldn't I? Everyones facial structure is different, ergo one persons jewel of a mp is anothers trash.
Choose stuff you like the look of and the ease of playing of and work your socks off to make it great from your side.... that will work.
Trombones and mouthpieces don't DO anything.... the good stuff gets out of the way and lets YOU do things.
Chris[/quote]
Yes and no. Different horns play differently. Just changing the material and thickness of ferrules can influence the properties of a horn. The best players in the world will sound different with a different set of variables on front of them, that has nothing to do with practice. Now, playing to the limits of your specific horn, yes, obviously that has to do with seat time on it.
Your statement about mouthpieces is utter bs. I can do things on certain mouthpieces that are simply beyond my ability on others, and why shouldn't I? Everyones facial structure is different, ergo one persons jewel of a mp is anothers trash.
- afugate
- Posts: 671
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Jgittleson"]<QUOTE author="blast" post_id="69996" time="1540491398" user_id="52">
[snip]
Trombones and mouthpieces don't DO anything.... the good stuff gets out of the way and lets YOU do things.
Chris[/quote]
[snip]
Your statement about mouthpieces is utter bs. I can do things on certain mouthpieces that are simply beyond my ability on others, and why shouldn't I? Everyones facial structure is different, ergo one persons jewel of a mp is anothers trash.
</QUOTE>
I think that's exactly what Blast is saying. In all cases, you still have to do the work. Equipment can make that easier by getting out of the way. But if you can't do it first, then all the equipment in the world won't help you do it.
--Andy in OKC
[snip]
Trombones and mouthpieces don't DO anything.... the good stuff gets out of the way and lets YOU do things.
Chris[/quote]
[snip]
Your statement about mouthpieces is utter bs. I can do things on certain mouthpieces that are simply beyond my ability on others, and why shouldn't I? Everyones facial structure is different, ergo one persons jewel of a mp is anothers trash.
</QUOTE>
I think that's exactly what Blast is saying. In all cases, you still have to do the work. Equipment can make that easier by getting out of the way. But if you can't do it first, then all the equipment in the world won't help you do it.
--Andy in OKC
- norbie2018
- Posts: 1051
- Joined: Apr 05, 2018
[quote="blast"]Don't be sucked in by advertising hype. It is more about style than anything. Bach have used dual radius bends since forever. Conn not. King not. Do you hear the difference ? No.
Chris[/quote]
But you can hear a difference when players perform on equally sized Bachs vs Kings vs Conns. Part of it is their personal style but part of it is their equipment.
Chris[/quote]
But you can hear a difference when players perform on equally sized Bachs vs Kings vs Conns. Part of it is their personal style but part of it is their equipment.
- Inspector71
- Posts: 36
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
The thought of "design" should be considered here. All instruments play the way they play due to their design.
You start out with a design that you like. It represents a vision of how the designer thinks the instrument should work. Some start with a dual radius tuning slide some not...but they are designed, one would hope, to work with all of the other aspects of the that design. Sure, changing something will produce a difference. The thing to keep in mind is, "What am I wanting to accomplish specifically?" "Why do you think this change is important?"
Also, try to keep your mind a blank canvas to avoid preconceived ideas. Let the process be fair. I have seen it time and time again, a player comes in and says that they can only play on options A, B and C. They end up sounding best on X,Y and Z...but ultimately go back to ABC because that's what they have been told sounds good. A lot of players think they know what makes something play a certain way, but often, it's not the case... It's just what they have been told by another person that didn't know either.
I have heard Doug Elliott say about certain trombone aspects, and I'm paraphrasing, that there are things that shouldn't be, but we have learned how to make them work anyway. This is also true.
Just a few thoughts...enjoy at your own risk. ;-)
MDM
You start out with a design that you like. It represents a vision of how the designer thinks the instrument should work. Some start with a dual radius tuning slide some not...but they are designed, one would hope, to work with all of the other aspects of the that design. Sure, changing something will produce a difference. The thing to keep in mind is, "What am I wanting to accomplish specifically?" "Why do you think this change is important?"
Also, try to keep your mind a blank canvas to avoid preconceived ideas. Let the process be fair. I have seen it time and time again, a player comes in and says that they can only play on options A, B and C. They end up sounding best on X,Y and Z...but ultimately go back to ABC because that's what they have been told sounds good. A lot of players think they know what makes something play a certain way, but often, it's not the case... It's just what they have been told by another person that didn't know either.
I have heard Doug Elliott say about certain trombone aspects, and I'm paraphrasing, that there are things that shouldn't be, but we have learned how to make them work anyway. This is also true.
Just a few thoughts...enjoy at your own risk. ;-)
MDM
- TheBoneRanger
- Posts: 225
- Joined: Apr 04, 2018
[quote="Inspector71"]The thought of "design" should be considered here. All instruments play the way they play due to their design.
You start out with a design that you like. It represents a vision of how the designer thinks the instrument should work. Some start with a dual radius tuning slide some not...but they are designed, one would hope, to work with all of the other aspects of the that design. Sure, changing something will produce a difference. The thing to keep in mind is, "What am I wanting to accomplish specifically?" "Why do you think this change is important?"
Also, try to keep your mind a blank canvas to avoid preconceived ideas. Let the process be fair. I have seen it time and time again, a player comes in and says that they can only play on options A, B and C. They end up sounding best on X,Y and Z...but ultimately go back to ABC because that's what they have been told sounds good. A lot of players think they know what makes something play a certain way, but often, it's not the case... It's just what they have been told by another person that didn't know either.
I have heard Doug Elliott say about certain trombone aspects, and I'm paraphrasing, that there are things that shouldn't be, but we have learned how to make them work anyway. This is also true.
Just a few thoughts...enjoy at your own risk. ;-)
MDM[/quote]
Great post!
I've owned dual radius tuning slides and single-bore slides for my Edwards bass, and they all have an effect, but I believe my horn is a better "Edwards" with the standard tuning slide and dual-bore slide. My understanding is that those components were part of the original design...
I persisted with the alternate components for quite some time, years in some case, but ultimately, I was trying to make that horn into something it didn't want to be. I'd have been better off moving to a different brand.
But if you embrace the Edwards for what it is, it's a terrific horn.
[quote="blast"]Articulations.... that's mostly about how you articulate.... sound.... that one is mostly concept.[/quote]
Couldn't agree more. A $100 lesson with Doug Elliot made much more difference to this aspect of my playing than a couple hundred dollar dual-radius tuning slide ever did.
Andrew
You start out with a design that you like. It represents a vision of how the designer thinks the instrument should work. Some start with a dual radius tuning slide some not...but they are designed, one would hope, to work with all of the other aspects of the that design. Sure, changing something will produce a difference. The thing to keep in mind is, "What am I wanting to accomplish specifically?" "Why do you think this change is important?"
Also, try to keep your mind a blank canvas to avoid preconceived ideas. Let the process be fair. I have seen it time and time again, a player comes in and says that they can only play on options A, B and C. They end up sounding best on X,Y and Z...but ultimately go back to ABC because that's what they have been told sounds good. A lot of players think they know what makes something play a certain way, but often, it's not the case... It's just what they have been told by another person that didn't know either.
I have heard Doug Elliott say about certain trombone aspects, and I'm paraphrasing, that there are things that shouldn't be, but we have learned how to make them work anyway. This is also true.
Just a few thoughts...enjoy at your own risk. ;-)
MDM[/quote]
Great post!
I've owned dual radius tuning slides and single-bore slides for my Edwards bass, and they all have an effect, but I believe my horn is a better "Edwards" with the standard tuning slide and dual-bore slide. My understanding is that those components were part of the original design...
I persisted with the alternate components for quite some time, years in some case, but ultimately, I was trying to make that horn into something it didn't want to be. I'd have been better off moving to a different brand.
But if you embrace the Edwards for what it is, it's a terrific horn.
[quote="blast"]Articulations.... that's mostly about how you articulate.... sound.... that one is mostly concept.[/quote]
Couldn't agree more. A $100 lesson with Doug Elliot made much more difference to this aspect of my playing than a couple hundred dollar dual-radius tuning slide ever did.
Andrew
- blast
- Posts: 671
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
I deliberately wrote some controversial things to stir up the troops.... and it worked..
What I didn't write was BS
A mouthpiece is a lump of brass machined in particular ways.... it does nothing... how can it?
It allows the player to do things. The design will allow some aspects of playing to work more easily, but that may mean that other aspects of performance are not so easy. If a player understands this it can help make mouthpiece and trombone selection less confusing.
Chris
What I didn't write was BS
A mouthpiece is a lump of brass machined in particular ways.... it does nothing... how can it?
It allows the player to do things. The design will allow some aspects of playing to work more easily, but that may mean that other aspects of performance are not so easy. If a player understands this it can help make mouthpiece and trombone selection less confusing.
Chris
- Inspector71
- Posts: 36
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="blast"]I deliberately wrote some controversial things to stir up the troops.... and it worked..
What I didn't write was BS
A mouthpiece is a lump of brass machined in particular ways.... it does nothing... how can it?
It allows the player to do things. The design will allow some aspects of playing to work more easily, but that may mean that other aspects of performance are not so easy. If a player understands this it can help make mouthpiece and trombone selection less confusing.
Chris[/quote]
Controversial or not...it was worth saying! Preach on! Well done!
What I didn't write was BS
A mouthpiece is a lump of brass machined in particular ways.... it does nothing... how can it?
It allows the player to do things. The design will allow some aspects of playing to work more easily, but that may mean that other aspects of performance are not so easy. If a player understands this it can help make mouthpiece and trombone selection less confusing.
Chris[/quote]
Controversial or not...it was worth saying! Preach on! Well done!
- Jimkinkella
- Posts: 286
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="blast"]Trombones and mouthpieces don't DO anything.... the good stuff gets out of the way and lets YOU do things[/quote]
Yep.
But don't buy anything because of the way it looks, some things just don't work.
Jim
Yep.
But don't buy anything because of the way it looks, some things just don't work.
Jim