"Bach" alto trombone from China
- Stustang05
- Posts: 17
- Joined: Mar 10, 2022
I saw this on eBay today. I wonder if the Vincent Bach Corp. knows aboout it.
<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.ebay.com/itm/403950035706?h ... R5Sk3uqFYQ">https://www.ebay.com/itm/403950035706?hash=item5e0d4c62fa:g:ydUAAOSwLPxjUQc3&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoGVs76BjruIDCeKFDSzeTeKszk0rOuOIDGVbANQZPrdulGRQypkR%2B%2Fnw6MJIq4S5PxaT%2BLUv1F8dcEHXREqE%2BXfkccFigrsFbAK3U5Hfn%2Ft%2F9KzbtYeFWvIIZet%2FxEYnyN6mHtH%2FStWEzh0XJRgpVlglAueJnaLCH8EBIfa%2BEhMfHX06LvF6INeyUuFcV%2BdOmFDNcrq4gdWyu40WB3%2FjCv8%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR5Sk3uqFYQ</LINK_TEXT>
<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.ebay.com/itm/403950035706?h ... R5Sk3uqFYQ">https://www.ebay.com/itm/403950035706?hash=item5e0d4c62fa:g:ydUAAOSwLPxjUQc3&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoGVs76BjruIDCeKFDSzeTeKszk0rOuOIDGVbANQZPrdulGRQypkR%2B%2Fnw6MJIq4S5PxaT%2BLUv1F8dcEHXREqE%2BXfkccFigrsFbAK3U5Hfn%2Ft%2F9KzbtYeFWvIIZet%2FxEYnyN6mHtH%2FStWEzh0XJRgpVlglAueJnaLCH8EBIfa%2BEhMfHX06LvF6INeyUuFcV%2BdOmFDNcrq4gdWyu40WB3%2FjCv8%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR5Sk3uqFYQ</LINK_TEXT>
- chromebone
- Posts: 454
- Joined: Apr 08, 2018
It doesn’t look like a 39, just the standard Chinese generic knockoff.
Conn-Selmer stopped making the 39, so they probably don’t care anyway.
Conn-Selmer stopped making the 39, so they probably don’t care anyway.
- Thrawn22
- Posts: 1436
- Joined: Sep 06, 2018
[quote="chromebone"]It doesn’t look like a 39, just the standard Chinese generic knockoff.
Conn-Selmer stopped making the 39, so they probably don’t care anyway.[/quote]
They stopped making the 39?
Conn-Selmer stopped making the 39, so they probably don’t care anyway.[/quote]
They stopped making the 39?
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
[quote="Thrawn22"]They stopped making the 39?[/quote] I can't find one in stock anywhere, and the Bach website doesn't list them at all.
Yet they STILL list the 50B2 with non-split triggers.
Yet they STILL list the 50B2 with non-split triggers.
- chromebone
- Posts: 454
- Joined: Apr 08, 2018
[quote="Thrawn22"]<QUOTE author="chromebone" post_id="192339" time="1667231221" user_id="3008">
It doesn’t look like a 39, just the standard Chinese generic knockoff.
Conn-Selmer stopped making the 39, so they probably don’t care anyway.[/quote]
They stopped making the 39?
</QUOTE>
The 39 sounds great, compact and clear, but the intonation is an absolute bear and it’s relatively small. The Conn 34/36h’s are larger and are easier to play in tune.
It doesn’t look like a 39, just the standard Chinese generic knockoff.
Conn-Selmer stopped making the 39, so they probably don’t care anyway.[/quote]
They stopped making the 39?
</QUOTE>
The 39 sounds great, compact and clear, but the intonation is an absolute bear and it’s relatively small. The Conn 34/36h’s are larger and are easier to play in tune.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Didn't know "Bach" was a name you could TM. Vincent Bach, maybe
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]Didn't know "Bach" was a name you could TM. Vincent Bach, maybe[/quote]
No way you could get a general trademark on the name "Bach" - but it may be that one could (and maybe has) trademark the Bach name as it applies to brass instruments..
No way you could get a general trademark on the name "Bach" - but it may be that one could (and maybe has) trademark the Bach name as it applies to brass instruments..
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Bach® - a REGISTERED TRADEMARK (with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office) for musical instruments (or at least for brass instruments). Over the decades, Vincent Bach, then Selmer, now Conn-Selmer have been very diligent in properly using (and I presume protecting) their trademark. The Chinese alto trombone vendor is taking a serious risk by using the Bach name in this manner, and will be shut down if Conn-Selmer perceives them as a threat.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
There was a Chinese label called "Back" at one time. The Chinese were putting out a lot of products with false names (Selman is another that comes to mind). The Chinese have had a very casual relationship with trademark law in the past.
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
My favorite was the "Mount Vernon" brand mouthpieces.
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
[quote="Posaunus"]Bach® - a REGISTERED TRADEMARK (with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office) for musical instruments (or at least for brass instruments). Over the decades, Vincent Bach, then Selmer, now Conn-Selmer have been very diligent in properly using (and I presume protecting) their trademark. The Chinese alto trombone vendor is taking a serious risk by using the Bach name in this manner, and will be shut down if Conn-Selmer perceives them as a threat.[/quote] I reported it for being counterfeit, which is something any user can do. Usually I end up reporting the NUMEROUS fake Gibson guitars flooding out of China, which are often called Chibsons.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="tbonesullivan"]<QUOTE author="Posaunus" post_id="192412" time="1667280793" user_id="158">
Bach® - a REGISTERED TRADEMARK (with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office) for musical instruments (or at least for brass instruments). Over the decades, Vincent Bach, then Selmer, now Conn-Selmer have been very diligent in properly using (and I presume protecting) their trademark. The Chinese alto trombone vendor is taking a serious risk by using the Bach name in this manner, and will be shut down if Conn-Selmer perceives them as a threat.
[/quote] I reported it for being counterfeit, which is something any user can do.
</QUOTE>
Great idea - hope that eBay takes appropriate action! :good:
Bach® - a REGISTERED TRADEMARK (with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office) for musical instruments (or at least for brass instruments). Over the decades, Vincent Bach, then Selmer, now Conn-Selmer have been very diligent in properly using (and I presume protecting) their trademark. The Chinese alto trombone vendor is taking a serious risk by using the Bach name in this manner, and will be shut down if Conn-Selmer perceives them as a threat.
[/quote] I reported it for being counterfeit, which is something any user can do.
</QUOTE>
Great idea - hope that eBay takes appropriate action! :good:
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]Didn't know "Bach" was a name you could TM. Vincent Bach, maybe[/quote]
If the word "Apple" can be a trademark...
If the word "Apple" can be a trademark...
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Apple as a computer brand is trademarked. They can't now sue you for making apple pies (from apples). Only using the name on a computer and the logo of the apple with a bite out of it are protected. Note that the comic "Foxtrot" has called its imitation Apples "I-Fruit".
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
What if you made a Johann Sebastian Bach trombone?
Or an Adam's Apple computer?
Or an Adam's Apple computer?
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]What if you made a Johann Sebastian Bach trombone?
Or an Adam's Apple computer?[/quote]
The court would likely look at how the similarly-named product was being marketed.
Here's an example of a trademark lawsuit between siblings involving the use of the family name:
<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm ... story.html">https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1989-06-21-mn-2389-story.html</LINK_TEXT>
Or an Adam's Apple computer?[/quote]
The court would likely look at how the similarly-named product was being marketed.
Here's an example of a trademark lawsuit between siblings involving the use of the family name:
<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm ... story.html">https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1989-06-21-mn-2389-story.html</LINK_TEXT>
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
You don't trademark a mere word. You trademark a brand of some sort of object or service. Lots of restrictions apply to the process of obtaining a trademark. Contact an intellectual property attorney for an explanation.
The word "Levi's" is trademarked by Levi Strauss as a brand of clothing. You could sell Levi's cookies without a problem - until someone might succeed in trademarking that brand of food products.
The word "Levi's" is trademarked by Levi Strauss as a brand of clothing. You could sell Levi's cookies without a problem - until someone might succeed in trademarking that brand of food products.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
One of the problems with the Chinese knockoffs was that they used a similar name using a similar font and similar advertising copy. It was intended to confuse the buyer into thinking it was something it was not. Had they created a completely different look for the Back or Selman musical instrument, it might have been more acceptable. Instead, the name was written in the same font as the original.
That's the point of John L.'s article. Had the junior Gallo created a different look for his cheese advertising it would have been acceptable. Instead, he tried to make it look like it was part of the Gallo Winery business.
That's the point of John L.'s article. Had the junior Gallo created a different look for his cheese advertising it would have been acceptable. Instead, he tried to make it look like it was part of the Gallo Winery business.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
Brand <> Word
A word can be a subset of a brand.
The US Patent and Trademark Office has[url=https://www.uspto.gov/trademarks/basics/what-trademark]this to say
That sure looks like you can trademark a word but I suppose it is possible the USPTO has no lawyers vetting their statements.
A word can be a subset of a brand.
The US Patent and Trademark Office has
A trademark can be any word, phrase, symbol, design, or a combination of these things that identifies your goods or services. It’s how customers recognize you in the marketplace and distinguish you from your competitors.
That sure looks like you can trademark a word but I suppose it is possible the USPTO has no lawyers vetting their statements.
- heinzgries
- Posts: 250
- Joined: Apr 24, 2018
- spencercarran
- Posts: 689
- Joined: Oct 17, 2020
[quote="heinzgries"]There is another alto offered as a Bach alto
<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.rosehillinstruments.co.uk/p ... o-trombone">https://www.rosehillinstruments.co.uk/p/AT501D/alto-trombones/vincent-bach/vincent-bach-at501-e-flat-alto-trombone</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]
That one is much more egregious. Says "Vincent Bach" and "Conn-Selmer," follows what could pass for Bach model number conventions, pictured bracing/ferrules broadly look similar in style to Bach.
<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.rosehillinstruments.co.uk/p ... o-trombone">https://www.rosehillinstruments.co.uk/p/AT501D/alto-trombones/vincent-bach/vincent-bach-at501-e-flat-alto-trombone</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]
That one is much more egregious. Says "Vincent Bach" and "Conn-Selmer," follows what could pass for Bach model number conventions, pictured bracing/ferrules broadly look similar in style to Bach.
- BrianJohnston
- Posts: 1165
- Joined: Jul 11, 2020
Someone from England is selling a cheap chinese horn labeled as a Conn alto trombone...
- StephenK
- Posts: 171
- Joined: Mar 26, 2018
Both Rosehill and Prozone are well respected UK retailers having that offer. So I would think they are genuine, and offered as entry level.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="StephenK"]Both Rosehill and Prozone are well respected UK retailers having that offer. So I would think they are genuine, and offered as entry level.[/quote]
You mean "genuine" as in a student model licensed by Conn-Selmer to a Chinese factory? If the mark "Conn" is trademarked, and not licensed, the product is counterfeit.
You mean "genuine" as in a student model licensed by Conn-Selmer to a Chinese factory? If the mark "Conn" is trademarked, and not licensed, the product is counterfeit.
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
[quote="StephenK"]Both Rosehill and Prozone are well respected UK retailers having that offer. So I would think they are genuine, and offered as entry level.[/quote]
I think you may be right. I see listings from many different shops for that model trombone. There are photos where it appears to have the usual Bach logo engraved on the bell. I only see listings from European shops, though, so I guess Conn-Selmer decided to only offer this item in Europe, for whatever reason. It certainly is not unprecedented for Conn-Selmer to sell student level instruments made in China.
Edit: To avoid confusion, I'll point out that we're talking about the link posted in the body of this thread, NOT the OP's link to the eBay listing.
I think you may be right. I see listings from many different shops for that model trombone. There are photos where it appears to have the usual Bach logo engraved on the bell. I only see listings from European shops, though, so I guess Conn-Selmer decided to only offer this item in Europe, for whatever reason. It certainly is not unprecedented for Conn-Selmer to sell student level instruments made in China.
Edit: To avoid confusion, I'll point out that we're talking about the link posted in the body of this thread, NOT the OP's link to the eBay listing.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="spencercarran"]<QUOTE author="heinzgries" post_id="192507" time="1667394302" user_id="3138">
There is another alto offered as a Bach alto
<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.rosehillinstruments.co.uk/p ... o-trombone">https://www.rosehillinstruments.co.uk/p/AT501D/alto-trombones/vincent-bach/vincent-bach-at501-e-flat-alto-trombone</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]
That one is much more egregious. Says "Vincent Bach" and "Conn-Selmer," follows what could pass for Bach model number conventions, pictured bracing/ferrules broadly look similar in style to Bach.
</QUOTE>
The listing is not "egregious" if Conn-Selmer has either contracted the Chinese factory to make and sell Bach-labeled trombones, or merely licensed them to use the trademarked Bach name. Both are O.K., and not trademark violations.
There is another alto offered as a Bach alto
<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.rosehillinstruments.co.uk/p ... o-trombone">https://www.rosehillinstruments.co.uk/p/AT501D/alto-trombones/vincent-bach/vincent-bach-at501-e-flat-alto-trombone</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]
That one is much more egregious. Says "Vincent Bach" and "Conn-Selmer," follows what could pass for Bach model number conventions, pictured bracing/ferrules broadly look similar in style to Bach.
</QUOTE>
The listing is not "egregious" if Conn-Selmer has either contracted the Chinese factory to make and sell Bach-labeled trombones, or merely licensed them to use the trademarked Bach name. Both are O.K., and not trademark violations.
- spencercarran
- Posts: 689
- Joined: Oct 17, 2020
[quote="Posaunus"]<QUOTE author="spencercarran" post_id="192518" time="1667398928" user_id="10390">
That one is much more egregious. Says "Vincent Bach" and "Conn-Selmer," follows what could pass for Bach model number conventions, pictured bracing/ferrules broadly look similar in style to Bach.[/quote]
The listing is not "egregious" if Conn-Selmer has either contracted the Chinese factory to make and sell Bach-labeled trombones, or merely licensed them to use the trademarked Bach name. Both are O.K., and not trademark violations.
</QUOTE>
I guess if Conn-Selmer has introduced a Chinese-made student level alto trombone without announcing it or listing it anywhere on their website? That would be news to me, and I expect to most other people as well.
Has anyone heard of Conn-Selmer introducing new imported student horns, especially in the alto range?
That one is much more egregious. Says "Vincent Bach" and "Conn-Selmer," follows what could pass for Bach model number conventions, pictured bracing/ferrules broadly look similar in style to Bach.[/quote]
The listing is not "egregious" if Conn-Selmer has either contracted the Chinese factory to make and sell Bach-labeled trombones, or merely licensed them to use the trademarked Bach name. Both are O.K., and not trademark violations.
</QUOTE>
I guess if Conn-Selmer has introduced a Chinese-made student level alto trombone without announcing it or listing it anywhere on their website? That would be news to me, and I expect to most other people as well.
Has anyone heard of Conn-Selmer introducing new imported student horns, especially in the alto range?
- Elow
- Posts: 1924
- Joined: Mar 02, 2020
[quote="spencercarran"]Has anyone heard of Conn-Selmer introducing new imported student horns, especially in the alto range?[/quote]
There’s a Conn Selmer euphonium somewhere out in the world that is clearly jin bao or similar. They look nice, playability is questionable.
There’s a Conn Selmer euphonium somewhere out in the world that is clearly jin bao or similar. They look nice, playability is questionable.
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
[quote="spencercarran"]
Has anyone heard of Conn-Selmer introducing new imported student horns, especially in the alto range?[/quote]
I think they do it all the time. https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?t=19593. It was a student trombone model that they hadn't sold before. Seems like they are constantly changing their offerings. I'm not aware of them having a student alto before, but that's not really a reason they couldn't do so now.
Has anyone heard of Conn-Selmer introducing new imported student horns, especially in the alto range?[/quote]
I think they do it all the time. https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?t=19593. It was a student trombone model that they hadn't sold before. Seems like they are constantly changing their offerings. I'm not aware of them having a student alto before, but that's not really a reason they couldn't do so now.