Different Slide Lubricant for Different Material Outers? Nickel Silver
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
I've probably mentioned this before, but for some reason, I have had very bad luck with products like Slide-O-Mix and Yamaha "Yamasnot" on instruments with Nickel Silver outer tubes. And this was on fully cleaned, scrubbed, etc examples, one just out of a chem clean. My King 3B, Bach LT39, and Yamaha YBL-612 RII all have nickel silver outers, and the performance and longevity I get from these slide treatments is just the pits, while these same lubricants work fantastic on my horns with Yellow and Rose brass outers.
Has anyone else noticed this, or do I just not know how to use slide lube? Maybe I'm cursed?
I should also mention that all of these horns also work GREAT with both trombotine and super slick.
I've been looking at the Ultra-Pure slide stuff now to see if maybe that would work.
Has anyone else noticed this, or do I just not know how to use slide lube? Maybe I'm cursed?
I should also mention that all of these horns also work GREAT with both trombotine and super slick.
I've been looking at the Ultra-Pure slide stuff now to see if maybe that would work.
- OneTon
- Posts: 757
- Joined: Nov 02, 2021
Most of the horns that I own and play have nickel outers with the exception of a YSL-697Z, Conn 79H, and Shires 0.500 inch bore. Yamaha slide lubricant gets used on everything, including LT39, LT42G, LT42AG, LT6, 2B, Duo-Gravis, and Olds Super trombones. I have not experienced any difference between nickel and brass outer sleeves with the Yamaha slide lubricant.
I was strongly encouraged to use Trombotine on the 2B. I did so and was unable to make it work. I used pond’s cold cream successfully in the bad old days. I thought I had an issue with trying to clean Yamaha slide lubricant off the slide more than 10 years ago. These days Dawn dish soap seems to remove it.
I was strongly encouraged to use Trombotine on the 2B. I did so and was unable to make it work. I used pond’s cold cream successfully in the bad old days. I thought I had an issue with trying to clean Yamaha slide lubricant off the slide more than 10 years ago. These days Dawn dish soap seems to remove it.
- Bonearzt
- Posts: 833
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Not to sound condescending, but use what works!
I find that the trouble people have with Trombotine is not using ENOUGH on the tubes!!
And not using enough water to create large drops instead of a fine mist.
Not using enough could also be said for other lubes!
Remember that you must spread the lube on the ENTIRE inner surface of the outer tubes!!
Top to bottom!!!
And ONLY on the BOTTOM raised area (stockings) of the inner tubes!!
I find that the trouble people have with Trombotine is not using ENOUGH on the tubes!!
And not using enough water to create large drops instead of a fine mist.
Not using enough could also be said for other lubes!
Remember that you must spread the lube on the ENTIRE inner surface of the outer tubes!!
Top to bottom!!!
And ONLY on the BOTTOM raised area (stockings) of the inner tubes!!
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
I use Yamasnot on everything, and it works on everything just about the same for me. I don't have the time or inclination personally to deal with other lubes... I just clean, put on yamasnot, and do the same thing a few days later. Plenty of nickel outers here too.
- OneTon
- Posts: 757
- Joined: Nov 02, 2021
[quote="Bonearzt"]Not to sound condescending, but use what works!
Not using enough could also be said for other lubes![/quote]
Thanks for the tutorial. I might have been close to making Trombotine work briefly during a long rehearsal. If I have a need for Trombotine in the future I will remember what you recommended. Yamaha’s product has made me lazy.
There’s nothing wrong with using Trombotine if it works. If something is causing corrosion on the OP’s nickel outer slides it might take more effort to remove than surface roughness on a brass outer. As long as the Trombotine works it is not worth fixing.
Not using enough could also be said for other lubes![/quote]
Thanks for the tutorial. I might have been close to making Trombotine work briefly during a long rehearsal. If I have a need for Trombotine in the future I will remember what you recommended. Yamaha’s product has made me lazy.
There’s nothing wrong with using Trombotine if it works. If something is causing corrosion on the OP’s nickel outer slides it might take more effort to remove than surface roughness on a brass outer. As long as the Trombotine works it is not worth fixing.
- Macbone1
- Posts: 501
- Joined: Oct 01, 2019
[quote="Bonearzt"]Not to sound condescending, but use what works!
I find that the trouble people have with Trombotine is not using ENOUGH on the tubes!!
And not using enough water to create large drops instead of a fine mist.
Not using enough could also be said for other lubes!
Remember that you must spread the lube on the ENTIRE inner surface of the outer tubes!!
Top to bottom!!!
And ONLY on the BOTTOM raised area (stockings) of the inner tubes!![/quote]
Spoken like someone who wants to sell a lot of slide lube! :lol: :lol: But seriously, only the liquid lubes can be spread around inside the outer tubes. I plan to give that a try with my Yamaha stuff.
More than the "Slide Doctor recommended" amount of Trombotine can gum up and slow a slide down pretty quickly, then one has to reach for a kleenex to wipe the excess.
Changing the subject - is there a Hetman lube made for trombone slides? If so is it any good? I already use the tuning slide Hetman oils.
I find that the trouble people have with Trombotine is not using ENOUGH on the tubes!!
And not using enough water to create large drops instead of a fine mist.
Not using enough could also be said for other lubes!
Remember that you must spread the lube on the ENTIRE inner surface of the outer tubes!!
Top to bottom!!!
And ONLY on the BOTTOM raised area (stockings) of the inner tubes!![/quote]
Spoken like someone who wants to sell a lot of slide lube! :lol: :lol: But seriously, only the liquid lubes can be spread around inside the outer tubes. I plan to give that a try with my Yamaha stuff.
More than the "Slide Doctor recommended" amount of Trombotine can gum up and slow a slide down pretty quickly, then one has to reach for a kleenex to wipe the excess.
Changing the subject - is there a Hetman lube made for trombone slides? If so is it any good? I already use the tuning slide Hetman oils.
- Bonearzt
- Posts: 833
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
But seriously, only the liquid lubes can be spread around inside the outer tubes. I plan to give that a try with my Yamaha stuff.
More than the "Slide Doctor recommended" amount of Trombotine can gum up and slow a slide down pretty quickly, then one has to reach for a kleenex to wipe the excess.
[/quote]
Yeah, don't mind me and my years of slide work....
You CAN coat the entire inside of the tube with cream if you put a little effort into it.
I've been using Trombotine for 40+ years and using on my customers slides for 30+.
If you leave the excess on the inners then yes, it will gum up.
The trick is to lube the slide, douse with plenty of water , THEN wipe the inners and reapply copious amounts of water.
More than the "Slide Doctor recommended" amount of Trombotine can gum up and slow a slide down pretty quickly, then one has to reach for a kleenex to wipe the excess.
[/quote]
Yeah, don't mind me and my years of slide work....
You CAN coat the entire inside of the tube with cream if you put a little effort into it.
I've been using Trombotine for 40+ years and using on my customers slides for 30+.
If you leave the excess on the inners then yes, it will gum up.
The trick is to lube the slide, douse with plenty of water , THEN wipe the inners and reapply copious amounts of water.
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
I don't think it's an oxidation issue... I guess just user error? It just frustrates me that I can get some slides to work great with every lubricant, and others seem to "dislike" certain products. Could be that my bottle of Yama-snot has gone bad? It's still "snotty" though. Usually its when it becomes like water that the liquid lubricants stop working.
I'm one of those who brings in a slide for a cleaning and sometimes they ask "are you sure?" because it's already so clean. I've got cleaning rods, swabs, brass savr brushes, etc that get used regularly. I use distilled water in my spray bottles to avoid mineral issues.
I'm one of those who brings in a slide for a cleaning and sometimes they ask "are you sure?" because it's already so clean. I've got cleaning rods, swabs, brass savr brushes, etc that get used regularly. I use distilled water in my spray bottles to avoid mineral issues.
- Macbone1
- Posts: 501
- Joined: Oct 01, 2019
Thanks for the education, boneartz. I'll give that a try.
- Bonearzt
- Posts: 833
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="Macbone1"]Thanks for the education, boneartz. I'll give that a try.[/quote]
Always glad to help!!!
Always glad to help!!!
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Distilled water has lower surface tension than tap water. I don't know if that would account for any difference in slide action with any particular lubricants, but back when I was using Superslick or Trombotine I thought I noticed differences between water from different sources.
- OneTon
- Posts: 757
- Joined: Nov 02, 2021
[quote="Doug Elliott"]Distilled water has lower surface tension than tap water.[/quote]
That is fascinating. Is this something that can be observed or tested, or is there a specification for it? I found a device measuring surface at Fisher Scientific. It is only $344.72. I can’t wait to get mine. Well. Maybe not.
That is fascinating. Is this something that can be observed or tested, or is there a specification for it? I found a device measuring surface at Fisher Scientific. It is only $344.72. I can’t wait to get mine. Well. Maybe not.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
I looked it up.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Different solutes change the surface tension of water. That's one way soaps work, by the way. There are tables in things like the Handbook of Chemistry and Physics that give surface tension vs. concentration of solute, but that's probably overkill. So is the $344.72 meter.
There's lots of interesting chemistry that can occur between hardness dissolved in the water, the soapy lube, and any corrosion in the slide. Much too complex to try to describe.
Best action is to keep cleaning the slide. It removes some of the corrosion, some of the result of corrosion or hardness with slide lube, and dirt. That keeps the slide running as smooth as it can get.
There's lots of interesting chemistry that can occur between hardness dissolved in the water, the soapy lube, and any corrosion in the slide. Much too complex to try to describe.
Best action is to keep cleaning the slide. It removes some of the corrosion, some of the result of corrosion or hardness with slide lube, and dirt. That keeps the slide running as smooth as it can get.
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
The "soap" or surfactants that I am sure are in a lot of the "liquid" slide lubes are the reason I use distilled water. We have pretty hard water in my areas, and it would almost certainly mess with the lube and also lead to build up.
I'm gonna keep cleaning the one slide and see if it helps.
I'm gonna keep cleaning the one slide and see if it helps.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Maybe. But more surface tension might make it work better.
Experimenting with the water is easier, cheaper, and more immediate than experimenting with lubes.
Experimenting with the water is easier, cheaper, and more immediate than experimenting with lubes.
- bigbandbone
- Posts: 602
- Joined: Jan 17, 2019
My 72H runs best with Yamasnot. My TR180 only likes Trombotine.
- Blabberbucket
- Posts: 305
- Joined: Oct 09, 2022
For what it's worth, nickel silver can take extra effort to get thoroughly clean - I have experienced this on both nickel handslide tubes and nickel horns like Conn 8Ds. In my experience, it often requires quite a bit of extra swabbing with solvents after a chem clean to completely remove any scale, build up, and detritus from active surfaces on nickel instruments (slides, rotor casings, etc)
- ldmitruk
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Nov 21, 2018
[quote="Macbone1"]
Changing the subject - is there a Hetman lube made for trombone slides? If so is it any good? I already use the tuning slide Hetman oils.[/quote]
Hetman has a product you mix with water and then spray on your slide. I use it with Trombotine and it works quite well.
Changing the subject - is there a Hetman lube made for trombone slides? If so is it any good? I already use the tuning slide Hetman oils.[/quote]
Hetman has a product you mix with water and then spray on your slide. I use it with Trombotine and it works quite well.
- Macbone1
- Posts: 501
- Joined: Oct 01, 2019
Thanks....I'm not sure about spraying something oily like that around though.
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
Apologies for the long post…
I used Trombotine for many years on all my slides—Bachs, Conns, and Kings, most yellow brass, some nickel silver. When cleaned and well-maintained, I never had problems (aside from dents and repairs).
About 15 years ago I started using distilled water in the spray bottle. I’ve noticed less build-up of green gunk, and generally cleaner slides. I had to use a little more lube, and lube the slide a little more often, but subjectively I think the action improved.
I now have all Bachs with yellow slide tubes. I experimented with Yamasnot beginning about 10 years ago. It’s good, but about 5 years ago, I switched to UltraPure. Even better. Easy to apply, easy to clean, great action. A small amount of distilled water sprayed on the slide, and then sprayed sparingly as the day goes on.
I think Eric and others are right, though. Some slides need different types of lube—thicker, thinner, different chemical compositions, etc. My Bach slides are older and looser, and I use UltraPure Alessi formula—it’s thicker than the original. The original works well on tight slides and new slides… not that I have any of those at the moment…
I used Trombotine for many years on all my slides—Bachs, Conns, and Kings, most yellow brass, some nickel silver. When cleaned and well-maintained, I never had problems (aside from dents and repairs).
About 15 years ago I started using distilled water in the spray bottle. I’ve noticed less build-up of green gunk, and generally cleaner slides. I had to use a little more lube, and lube the slide a little more often, but subjectively I think the action improved.
I now have all Bachs with yellow slide tubes. I experimented with Yamasnot beginning about 10 years ago. It’s good, but about 5 years ago, I switched to UltraPure. Even better. Easy to apply, easy to clean, great action. A small amount of distilled water sprayed on the slide, and then sprayed sparingly as the day goes on.
I think Eric and others are right, though. Some slides need different types of lube—thicker, thinner, different chemical compositions, etc. My Bach slides are older and looser, and I use UltraPure Alessi formula—it’s thicker than the original. The original works well on tight slides and new slides… not that I have any of those at the moment…