Open or closed wrap.
- PhillyG
- Posts: 43
- Joined: Jul 23, 2020
Greetings from Maximum Security Prison! (Relax, I just work there!)
Now that I am getting long in the tooth (67) and have shifted to a lighter set up (Yamaha YBL 613G with a Wedge Delrin 1.12) I have once again found that I prefer a closed wrap set up. Just seems to blow with a bit more resistance which I prefer. I know this could all be in my head {along with several other voices} :( but would like to hear what some other bonists think!
Thanks y'all and keep blowing!
PhillyG
Now that I am getting long in the tooth (67) and have shifted to a lighter set up (Yamaha YBL 613G with a Wedge Delrin 1.12) I have once again found that I prefer a closed wrap set up. Just seems to blow with a bit more resistance which I prefer. I know this could all be in my head {along with several other voices} :( but would like to hear what some other bonists think!
Thanks y'all and keep blowing!
PhillyG
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I have 3 "closed" wrap horns and one open. I don't think it's related to the wrap, but I would pick up any of the 3 closed wrap horns before I'd pick up the open wrap.
Open wrap has a place. First, they had to have something different so kids would think what they had was better than what their grandparents had.
Second, you never have to do that backward tilt thing with an open wrap. I've really only had to do that once, when I was playing the bass part a show on my 88h. I was in the trigger so much it accumulated condensation and started to gurgle.
Theoretically the open wrap has fewer bends, so it should offer less resistance and sound more open. Also fewer bends is easier to create. Open wrap should cost less.
Also theoretically, an open wrap should be capable of a very long pull, maybe even Eb, but in practice, nobody makes them this way. In fact, many open wraps can't even do an E pull.
Traditional wrap (because I can't think of anything "closed" about it") never sticks out past the main tuning slide unless you're using an E pull. So it fits in cases better.
For me, it's just that all of my favorite horns were made before open wraps were fashionable. I don't really prefer one over the other when it comes right down to it, aside from the sticking out behind thing. If someone were to give me a Rath R3, I'd certainly take it regardless of what kind of wrap it had - even a Hagmanns wrap.
Open wrap has a place. First, they had to have something different so kids would think what they had was better than what their grandparents had.
Second, you never have to do that backward tilt thing with an open wrap. I've really only had to do that once, when I was playing the bass part a show on my 88h. I was in the trigger so much it accumulated condensation and started to gurgle.
Theoretically the open wrap has fewer bends, so it should offer less resistance and sound more open. Also fewer bends is easier to create. Open wrap should cost less.
Also theoretically, an open wrap should be capable of a very long pull, maybe even Eb, but in practice, nobody makes them this way. In fact, many open wraps can't even do an E pull.
Traditional wrap (because I can't think of anything "closed" about it") never sticks out past the main tuning slide unless you're using an E pull. So it fits in cases better.
For me, it's just that all of my favorite horns were made before open wraps were fashionable. I don't really prefer one over the other when it comes right down to it, aside from the sticking out behind thing. If someone were to give me a Rath R3, I'd certainly take it regardless of what kind of wrap it had - even a Hagmanns wrap.
- Bonearzt
- Posts: 833
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Theoretically, the "open wrap" should play with less resistance.
Practically it doesn't.
The open wrap might "feel" a bit more resonant due to the difference in bracing, but probably not in regards to resistance or response.
The late Larry Minick did a flow test between an open wrap and a traditional wrap and found no difference.
In my non-scientific opinion, the real difference is how they are assembled!! Tubing fitting snuggly into ferrules, no tension on brace points, etc...
Play what feels and responds best for YOU!!
Practically it doesn't.
The open wrap might "feel" a bit more resonant due to the difference in bracing, but probably not in regards to resistance or response.
The late Larry Minick did a flow test between an open wrap and a traditional wrap and found no difference.
In my non-scientific opinion, the real difference is how they are assembled!! Tubing fitting snuggly into ferrules, no tension on brace points, etc...
Play what feels and responds best for YOU!!
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Acoustics and flow are two different things. Vibrations behave differently going through different kinds of bends. That's at least partly why different styles of valves and wraps play the way they do.
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
I agree with Eric. I personally think the reason that a lot of closed wrap horns are improved by switching to open wrap is that they tend to be assembled more carefully on the modification. Not that the modification is inherently superior, but the open wraps tend to have fewer bends and solder points that can go wrong.
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
Now, are we talking a true "Closed wrap" or a "traditional wrap"? When I think "closed wrap" I think of things like the "Pancake wrap" or other very early designs. I usually describe the wrap still used on many horns as the "traditional" wrap, as it was an improvement that I believe allowed an "E pull" if necessary. Then later came the open wrap. There is of course, a lot to unpack regardless of the type of wrap you choose, and LOTS OF SPLITTING HAIRS. If I recall, one of the main reasons for the "open wrap" was so that water wouldn't accumulate in the F-attachment.
A lot of the discussions I have seen focus on the "tight bends" and angles created by the traditional wrap. However, there are going to be relatively tight angles and bends regardless of how the wrap is done when a rotary valve is involved. Many of the "open" wraps out there have a 180 degree bend where the F-attachment goes back into the valve. Some have two 90 degree ports, so they have a nice curved portion instead, but whether it is a tight bend or a long bend, it's still a bend.
Many also forget that a standard rotary valve IS a bend in the tubing, usually 120 degrees. Then there is another bend in the knuckle, either in the same or the opposite direction as the bend inside the valve. There are some valves such as the Thein "Star Valve" that have straighter knuckles for a smoother transition, however it is still there.
Full disclosure: I just picked up a Bach LT36B, traditional wrap. I don't want the tubing sticking out the back, and honestly I won't be using the trigger that much. I played it for about an hour before buying it, and honestly I didn't notice a "stuffy" valve register. It plays very nicely.
Anyway, play what you like. If you can make it work for you, do it.
A lot of the discussions I have seen focus on the "tight bends" and angles created by the traditional wrap. However, there are going to be relatively tight angles and bends regardless of how the wrap is done when a rotary valve is involved. Many of the "open" wraps out there have a 180 degree bend where the F-attachment goes back into the valve. Some have two 90 degree ports, so they have a nice curved portion instead, but whether it is a tight bend or a long bend, it's still a bend.
Many also forget that a standard rotary valve IS a bend in the tubing, usually 120 degrees. Then there is another bend in the knuckle, either in the same or the opposite direction as the bend inside the valve. There are some valves such as the Thein "Star Valve" that have straighter knuckles for a smoother transition, however it is still there.
Full disclosure: I just picked up a Bach LT36B, traditional wrap. I don't want the tubing sticking out the back, and honestly I won't be using the trigger that much. I played it for about an hour before buying it, and honestly I didn't notice a "stuffy" valve register. It plays very nicely.
Anyway, play what you like. If you can make it work for you, do it.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
What were you playing before? The 613 is not a resistant instrument, it's just balanced. It has very good rotors that negate any real difference in wrap design.
- Finetales
- Posts: 1482
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I tend to prefer closed wraps because they usually don't stick out as far, so they're nicer in tight orchestra pits and cramped stages. But as far as appearance or playing feel goes I'm fine with either.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
I think it comes down to the ports and the exit angles of the valve, not so much the wrap being closed or open.
If you have a valve with undersized ports that are at 180⁰ angles, it will play badly even if it is open wrap.
If you have a valve with undersized ports that are at 180⁰ angles, it will play badly even if it is open wrap.
- heinamj
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Oct 31, 2022
I've only ever played my 3 Kings from the 70's with closed wraps, and the 4B and 5B also only have a .547 bore through the wrap. But, while I'd love to try a Benge 190F with open .562 wrap, I don't think my 5B is holding me back too much.
- dcslideman
- Posts: 134
- Joined: Mar 23, 2022
[quote="Finetales"]I tend to prefer closed wraps because they usually don't stick out as far, so they're nicer in tight orchestra pits and cramped stages.[/quote]
I agree completely. When I look at the open wrap on an older Bach 42BO or a Conn 88HO, I know I would mangle it. A few open wraps are less objectionable, like the Getzen 1047 or new Conn 88HNV. I have been tempted by many Courtois 260 or 280 horns at great prices, but have passed due to the long wrap.
I agree completely. When I look at the open wrap on an older Bach 42BO or a Conn 88HO, I know I would mangle it. A few open wraps are less objectionable, like the Getzen 1047 or new Conn 88HNV. I have been tempted by many Courtois 260 or 280 horns at great prices, but have passed due to the long wrap.
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
On most open wraps a tech would be able to add a loop or something to avoid it sticking out without too much effort. Way easier than going the other way for sure.
I’m hindsight, I’m actually a a little surprised something like G tuning open wrap wasn’t the standard with crooks to extend to F. Trumpets and French horns both had a long history of doing that before trombones started commonly putting valves on tenor trombones.
I’m hindsight, I’m actually a a little surprised something like G tuning open wrap wasn’t the standard with crooks to extend to F. Trumpets and French horns both had a long history of doing that before trombones started commonly putting valves on tenor trombones.
- dcslideman
- Posts: 134
- Joined: Mar 23, 2022
I have seen a few 42BOF that appear to have less rear extension. I assume they are newest? Have they reshaped the loop? I know the 42A and 42AF also result in less rear extension than a 42BO.
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
The BOF valve is a little wider than the BO wraps so it sticks out less. Also has a downward swoosh first which also somewhat reduces upper length too
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
I have many trombones, some with open wrap some with closed wrap. I have neve thought of them as different because of this except from appearance.
/Tom
/Tom
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
[quote="Matt K"]The BOF valve is a little wider than the BO wraps so it sticks out less. Also has a downward swoosh first which also somewhat reduces upper length too[/quote] I love the BOF wrap. It's also only connected to the braces, so the bell can ring freely. I don't think any of the other wraps that Bach uses do that. They all are attached to the bell in some place or another.
This is not including the Artisan models, which have a detachable bell, so they need to not have the F-attachment attached to the bell. The standard rotary version of the artisan valve section has a wrap similar to the BOF wrap.
This is not including the Artisan models, which have a detachable bell, so they need to not have the F-attachment attached to the bell. The standard rotary version of the artisan valve section has a wrap similar to the BOF wrap.
- Finetales
- Posts: 1482
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Matt K"]I’m hindsight, I’m actually a a little surprised something like G tuning open wrap wasn’t the standard with crooks to extend to F. Trumpets and French horns both had a long history of doing that before trombones started commonly putting valves on tenor trombones.[/quote]
All speculation, but:
I would guess it's because the valve was used to replace long F bass trombones, so the range extension was what was deemed important (rather than alternate positions further up in the register). I have to wonder if not using the valve at all outside of low Eb-C was the norm back then. I studied with someone who took that approach - only use the valve (or valves) when absolutely necessary.
I would imagine that single G valves are a much more modern concept, as they are predicated on using the valve all the time, and having valves good enough to not drastically change the sound or feel or the instrument when engaged.
[quote="Matt K"]On most open wraps a tech would be able to add a loop or something to avoid it sticking out without too much effort. Way easier than going the other way for sure.[/quote]
Speaking of loops...if I used Edwards tenors, I would likely buy one of those Eb slides for the valve and then have the valve tubing cut so that it stands in G, and you can bring it down to F by using the Eb slide.
[quote="dcslideman"]I agree completely. When I look at the open wrap on an older Bach 42BO or a Conn 88HO, I know I would mangle it. A few open wraps are less objectionable, like the Getzen 1047 or new Conn 88HNV. I have been tempted by many Courtois 260 or 280 horns at great prices, but have passed due to the long wrap.[/quote]
The B&S Meistersinger MS14 trombones have one of my favorite open wraps, because it pretty much only goes out[url=https://images.reverb.com/image/upload/s--Rl4MO30---/f_auto,t_large/v1560786312/ljh7zdi8kfkfwrqgishl.jpg]as far as the main tuning slide does.
All speculation, but:
I would guess it's because the valve was used to replace long F bass trombones, so the range extension was what was deemed important (rather than alternate positions further up in the register). I have to wonder if not using the valve at all outside of low Eb-C was the norm back then. I studied with someone who took that approach - only use the valve (or valves) when absolutely necessary.
I would imagine that single G valves are a much more modern concept, as they are predicated on using the valve all the time, and having valves good enough to not drastically change the sound or feel or the instrument when engaged.
[quote="Matt K"]On most open wraps a tech would be able to add a loop or something to avoid it sticking out without too much effort. Way easier than going the other way for sure.[/quote]
Speaking of loops...if I used Edwards tenors, I would likely buy one of those Eb slides for the valve and then have the valve tubing cut so that it stands in G, and you can bring it down to F by using the Eb slide.
[quote="dcslideman"]I agree completely. When I look at the open wrap on an older Bach 42BO or a Conn 88HO, I know I would mangle it. A few open wraps are less objectionable, like the Getzen 1047 or new Conn 88HNV. I have been tempted by many Courtois 260 or 280 horns at great prices, but have passed due to the long wrap.[/quote]
The B&S Meistersinger MS14 trombones have one of my favorite open wraps, because it pretty much only goes out
![[url=https://images.reverb.com/image/upload/s--Rl4MO30---/f_auto,t_large/v1560786312/ljh7zdi8kfkfwrqgishl.jpg]as far as the main tuning slide does](https://images.reverb.com/image/upload/s--Rl4MO30---/f_auto,t_large/v1560786312/ljh7zdi8kfkfwrqgishl.jpg){kind=link}
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
I suppose that makes sense but still just kind of funny to me how that all ended up working out. Even if F was standard and I t was only used for notes that needed it - which also is perfectly epitomized by the dependent F/E valves of the time… still just funny to me that the standard had lots of bends and solder points instead of a simpler one without said bends.
Speaking of, I’m not sure with an Edwards if that would work. The G valve has to be somewhat narrow though I could be wrong about that. But if the end result was an F attachment that didn’t go beyond the tuning slide then that would be doable pretty easily. I’ve thought about trying a G with F crook on my dual bore and I think it’s just too wide with it being a 90 port instead of 180.
Speaking of, I’m not sure with an Edwards if that would work. The G valve has to be somewhat narrow though I could be wrong about that. But if the end result was an F attachment that didn’t go beyond the tuning slide then that would be doable pretty easily. I’ve thought about trying a G with F crook on my dual bore and I think it’s just too wide with it being a 90 port instead of 180.
- JohnD
- Posts: 47
- Joined: Aug 12, 2018
Definitely, I prefer the trad wrap due to less risk of damage. Subsequentely, I use to call open wrap tenor trombones tumor trombones ... :)
- Massimo69
- Posts: 277
- Joined: Mar 23, 2021
Sometime you play a closed wrap trombones and plays really well and open and sometimes you play a open wrap trombones and plays bad... And sometimes totally different... I think is not important the wrap design but the leadpipe, the material, how to soldering tubes with tubes... Tension in soldering... I found holton trigger and basses really easy with traditional wrap then others with open trigger... Or old traditional bach bass more open then many new open trombones...
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
[quote="JohnD"]Definitely, I prefer the trad wrap due to less risk of damage. Subsequentely, I use to call open wrap tenor trombones tumor trombones ... :)[/quote] This is especially true with the Conn 88HO, and Bach 42BO trombones. It's like they purposely made them as long as possible.
- Pezza
- Posts: 221
- Joined: Aug 24, 2021
I mostly use no wrap!
I have played good & bad with both. So it all depends on the individual horn.
I have played good & bad with both. So it all depends on the individual horn.
- Thrawn22
- Posts: 1436
- Joined: Sep 06, 2018
I was once told open wrap on a tenor doesn't do as much as an open wrap on a bassbone.
My 36 traditional wrap plays a bit more open than my 88H traditional wrap. It really depends on how well the horn is constructed.
My 36 traditional wrap plays a bit more open than my 88H traditional wrap. It really depends on how well the horn is constructed.