Large shank .525 medium bore mouthpieces?

Bleek · by **Bleek** » 2022-11-20 8:39 p.m.

Hi all.

I think it’s pretty niche but what mouthpieces work well for people who are using large shank leadpipes and mouthpieces in .525 bore slides? For example the MT Shires leadpipes.

Does something in the 4G to 5G size work better with a narrower backbore etc?

This is to use in pops orchestral and more symphonic musical theatre applications.

Thanks :)

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2022-11-20 9:06 p.m.

How about checking in with Doug Elliott?

I'd think an E8 Shank, an LT E Cup or MT E Cup, and a matching Rim of a size that works for your face (e.g., LT 100 or LT 101 / MT 100 or MT 101.

Doug's recommendation will be better than (and your face is different from) mine! :clever:

Thrawn22 · by **Thrawn22** » 2022-11-20 10:20 p.m.

I personally think it's silly to use one of those large shank .525 pipes.

However. In the case of rare large mpc size i can see wanting to use it on a .525.

muschem · by **muschem** » 2022-11-20 10:38 p.m.

I usually use the large shank pipe with the dual bore .525/.547 slide on my Shires. I’ve used DE XT E, F, G, and G+ cups on that setup, all with the corresponding #8 or #9 shanks, and they all work great. And the nice thing about Doug’s system - when I switch to a straight .525 slide without a large shank leadpipe, I just swap the shank on the mouthpiece to a #4, and the same cup works great that way too (I do this for XT E and F cups).

I highly recommend talking with Doug.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2022-11-20 10:46 p.m.

Years ago I tried a Shires .525 at an exhibit, comparing the large shank leadpipe with my #8 backbore, with the small shank leadpipe and my #4 and #5 backbores. They all played well but slightly differently. Not as much difference as I expected.

The E, E8 is probably a good choice to play like a "smaller large bore."

Bleek · by **Bleek** » 2022-11-21 1:17 a.m.

I nearly always play with the #3 small shank Shires pipe. But have some concerts coming up where I’m playing 2nd under someone playing a full .547 horn. In a perfect world I’d be playing a .547 but am going to at least play a large shank on my .525. I find it generally gets pretty close.

I just wondered if considerations were given to the smaller bore size of the .525 when playing on larger shank sizes. Wanted to see other peoples solutions.

I actually play a DE E and the small shank E when using the small shank pipes. Confused yet!

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2022-11-21 1:59 a.m.

[quote="Bleek"]I actually play a DE E and the small shank E when using the small shank pipes. Confused yet![/quote]

Get the large-shank E8 Shank and add to your existing system. You'll probably love it with the 0.525" bore!

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2022-11-21 2:38 a.m.

Also the new E4*2022 is outstanding on a .525

You should try it.

And the new E8*2022 is equally improved over older ones.

Bleek · by **Bleek** » 2022-11-21 3:53 a.m.

Doug I also have your G and G8 cup and shank, so at a stretch I could use that too for the upcoming gigs.

How much of a compromise is the G8 going into a large shank leadpipe into a .525 bore?

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2022-11-21 3:57 a.m.

I used a G cup (with G4 backbore) on a .525" horn. Pretty useable, but a bit more Euph like (read "tubby").

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2022-11-21 8:18 a.m.

The G depth cups aren't that deep. After all, many 525 horns are identical to their large bore counterparts other than the bore size of the slide, and many others yet have a minor difference in their bell section too. (E.g. all of the boutique 525 horns fall into the former, Conn 88 w/ 525 slides, etc.... then the Bach 36 falls into the latter category, etc.) So I find on most medium bores the "G" cup to be pretty reasonable from a sound perspective if you're wanting a classical sound. Now yeah, when you get super deep it can be a little wonky like the K / K3 combination I have. Although even then... I keep that in my gig bag on the off chance the bass trombonist doesn't show up or something and it gives a passable bass sound on my medium bores.

I do second Doug's recommendation. The new * shanks for the E size as absolutely superb. E8* works on my large shank receiver and I can barely tell there's a difference between it and the 547 slide I had. But the E4* is what I typically use on it. If I were in your shoes, I'd probably use the large shank pipe with an E8* or my G8* on it. But if I were sitting principal, I'd probably try to make the E4* work with my 7YLW bell section. As someone who always struggled with having a sound that I identify as being brighter than I wanted on the classical side of things... I'm a little surprised at how well that setup works for me.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2022-11-21 10:19 a.m.

I agree with what Matt said

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2022-11-21 12:16 p.m.

I just got an LT 102 E / E4* setup from Doug, and it works fantastically with my LT36B. Great feel and really SOUNDs like a Medium bore trombone.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2022-11-21 12:33 p.m.

My set {E4* 2020 Shank / LT E Cup / LT 100 (or LT 101) Rim} works great with my Conn 79H (0.522" bore).

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2022-11-21 3:02 p.m.

[quote="Thrawn22"]I personally think it's silly to use one of those large shank .525 pipes.

However. In the case of rare large mpc size i can see wanting to use it on a .525.[/quote]

I agree with this. Large shank on 525 doesn't make any sense, it's like having an adapter for an adapter. It takes a nimble horn and makes it less so. I generally like dual bores, but 525/547 isn't different enough from a 547 to justify having it. 525 with small shank is a great combination. I use DE 3 and 4 shanks on my 525s. There are many breeds of 525s, too, each of which reacts differently.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2022-11-21 3:43 p.m.

Depends on if you want a 547 or not. If I had one slide in that approximate bore size id have a 525/547 (and indeed, did for awhile). I don’t think it’s too unreasonable for someone to have a 525 horn exclusively and the big pipe does give it a bit extra to put it over the top into large bore territory

Bleek · by **Bleek** » 2022-11-21 5:18 p.m.

As an aside, when Ralph Sauer was playing his .525 in an orchestral situation did he use a small or large shank?

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2022-11-21 5:39 p.m.

I think he used a Schilke 50 for a while, so I’d guess both, at least for a period of time. I’ve got shires RS leadpipes for both small and large bore mpcs.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2022-11-21 5:49 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]I think he used a Schilke 50 for a while, so I’d guess both, at least for a period of time. I’ve got shires RS leadpipes for both small and large bore mpcs.[/quote]

Interesting, since he had played the Schilke 51 for so long. And Schilke does make a small-shank 51.

I'd speculate that he's now on to something else. Hard to tell from photos, but it's not a Schilke or Shires mouthpiece. I'm still a fan of the Schilke 51.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2022-11-21 6:58 p.m.

Didn’t his Schilke have a special outer shape? Might just be a skeletonized outer, but still the 51.

I think the “default” setup for the RS horn was the 525/547 at least initially. There at least used to be a large and small shank RS leadpipe too. But when I went to buy one a few years ago, the shires dealer I ordered from hadn’t heard of the large shank version. I’m guessing that at least based on that single data point that the small shank RS pipe is more popular.

CalgaryTbone · by **CalgaryTbone** » 2022-11-21 11:09 p.m.

When Ralph was here as a guest performer at the local University, I asked him what his mouthpiece was that he was using on the Sauer model Shires. It is a screw rim - 51 rim on a 50 cup. The blank of the cup was skeletonized by Gary Greenhoe (who gave it to Ralph). It's a small shank mouthpiece. Ralph sounded great on it, and his equipment was exactly what he described to me (paraphrasing here) - 90% of the typical sound of a large bore horn/mouthpiece with 50% of the effort. I didn't hear any loss of fullness in the sound, but maybe a bit more clarity than you often hear. He did some beautiful solo playing in his Masterclass on that equipment.

Jim Scott

WilliamLang · by **WilliamLang** » 2022-11-22 1:35 a.m.

When I was using a large shank .525 for show work a few years back, I found I would use a Shires Vintage 4G for more classically leaning shows, and either a large shank Laskey 57 or even a 6.5AL for more jazz oriented books. I liked the ability of the horn to be adaptable, and it was also great in quintets for a similar reason.

pedrombon · by **pedrombon** » 2022-11-22 8:20 a.m.

I often use a large shank leadpipe on my Sonas Stelo 525"/547" slide with a Griego 4.5NY and it works really great.

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Large shank .525 medium bore mouthpieces?