Ivory Rims??
- DakoJack
- Posts: 137
- Joined: Apr 17, 2018
I'm looking at buying a horn mainly for the mouthpiece, I believe it has an Ivory rim. Few questions since this is the first one I've seen in person.
Did anyone make these besides Olds? (The horn is actually a Conn I think 1900-1910 will know for sure soon)
Is there anything that would look like ivory that's not ivory from this period (I'm 90% is its).
Do these have any value? (I'm probably not selling.)
Did anyone make these besides Olds? (The horn is actually a Conn I think 1900-1910 will know for sure soon)
Is there anything that would look like ivory that's not ivory from this period (I'm 90% is its).
Do these have any value? (I'm probably not selling.)
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
The Olds design used an screw-in ivory insert that formed the rim and the inside of the cup. It's the only "factory" mouthpiece I know of that used ivory, but that's conclusive.
An item from the early 20th century that looks like ivory is probably ivory, though it could be some sort of natural rubber or possibly celluloid.
An item from the early 20th century that looks like ivory is probably ivory, though it could be some sort of natural rubber or possibly celluloid.
- Vegasbound
- Posts: 1328
- Joined: Jul 06, 2019
Just beware that in many countries now any trade in items made from Ivory is illegal, no matter the age
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
I would avoid buying ivory to avoid legal trouble. And to avoid people thinking you're a jerk.
- DakoJack
- Posts: 137
- Joined: Apr 17, 2018
Thanks y'all I definitely hadn't thought about the legality of Ivory rims. I appreciate the heads up! my honest first thought was nothing besides this is rare.
- BassBoneBen
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Apr 25, 2018
There's a lot of misconceptions about ivory, legal or not, looking at this now apparently elephant ivory is illegal to sell altogether but can be gifted, which might be why the seller had to pair it with the horn and not sell it outright. As for legal examples you'd have to go with mammoth or the few legal cases that walrus tusk is allowed. But those both involve paperwork.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
US Fish and Wildlife guidance on the subject...
<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.fws.gov/guidance/sites/guid ... 0Ivory.pdf">https://www.fws.gov/guidance/sites/guidance/files/documents/What%20Can%20I%20Do%20With%20My%20Ivory.pdf</LINK_TEXT>
An Olds ivory mouthpiece is old enough to qualify as "pre-ban", but it'd be a huge hassle to go through the process of getting such an exemption (if you could do it at all - the burden of proof is on you).
Another option would be the "de minimis" exemption. It is part of a musical instrument, the ivory portion is less than 200 grams, and it's certainly less than 50% of the total volume of the instrument - but that's only applicable if it's made of African elephant ivory. Asian elephant ivory does not qualify for the de minimis exemption. For various reasons, it's much more likely that it's African ivory but, once again, the burden of proof is on you. An expert can tell the difference, but they'd probably want to be paid.
Beware of state and possibly even local laws, too.
I've toyed with the idea of getting someone to make replica inserts from a modern material, but they'd need to have one of the originals to copy - and that leads me right back into the legal morass.
<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.fws.gov/guidance/sites/guid ... 0Ivory.pdf">https://www.fws.gov/guidance/sites/guidance/files/documents/What%20Can%20I%20Do%20With%20My%20Ivory.pdf</LINK_TEXT>
An Olds ivory mouthpiece is old enough to qualify as "pre-ban", but it'd be a huge hassle to go through the process of getting such an exemption (if you could do it at all - the burden of proof is on you).
Another option would be the "de minimis" exemption. It is part of a musical instrument, the ivory portion is less than 200 grams, and it's certainly less than 50% of the total volume of the instrument - but that's only applicable if it's made of African elephant ivory. Asian elephant ivory does not qualify for the de minimis exemption. For various reasons, it's much more likely that it's African ivory but, once again, the burden of proof is on you. An expert can tell the difference, but they'd probably want to be paid.
Beware of state and possibly even local laws, too.
I've toyed with the idea of getting someone to make replica inserts from a modern material, but they'd need to have one of the originals to copy - and that leads me right back into the legal morass.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
My best guess would be that the Olds ivory inserts were comparable to a Bach 12C. Problem I have is that my Olds came with a few rim shards (long since lost) and the bottom part (also long since lost); as well as a Rudy Muck 23 mouthpiece (also around 12C size). I'd bet the guy who owned it before me played Big Band or studio and that was the size to use back then.
I wouldn't worry too much about ivory as a rim material; you can simulate it pretty well with modern plastics. I'd bet a Doug Elliott plastic rim of the appropriate size (ST97?) would play equally as well as the ivory mouthpiece.
I wouldn't worry too much about ivory as a rim material; you can simulate it pretty well with modern plastics. I'd bet a Doug Elliott plastic rim of the appropriate size (ST97?) would play equally as well as the ivory mouthpiece.
- BassBoneBen
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Apr 25, 2018
I wonder if someone could do a modern replica to replace the screw rim out of mammoth or other legal ivory, that way it'd keep it's character, I don't think the point is necessarily to be played on but as a historic or "cool" piece. I'm sure there are much better modern examples but I don't think that's the point!
- Conn100HGuy
- Posts: 126
- Joined: Oct 22, 2018
You might want to consider the new hybrid Wedge mouthpieces from Harrison Mouthpieces.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="BassBoneBen"]I wonder if someone could do a modern replica to replace the screw rim out of mammoth or other legal ivory, that way it'd keep it's character, I don't think the point is necessarily to be played on but as a historic or "cool" piece. I'm sure there are much better modern examples but I don't think that's the point![/quote]
Mammoth ivory is pretty expensive, and you'd need a fair sized chunk (remember, it's not just a rim, it's an insert that also forms the inside of the cup). You'd also still have the potential of running into "burden of proof" issues if you ever lost the documentation.
Some people find any sort of "legal ivory" problematic; as they see it, any trade in ivory has the potential to encourage poaching and illegal trade. Part of the problem is that there's no fundamental difference between legal and illegal ivory - it's all just paperwork, and that's easily faked or forged.
There's also "vegetable ivory" (tagua nut). It's not expensive, and I think you can get a tagua nut that would be large enough, but I'm not sure if it's got the requisite properties for the job.
Doug Elliott, are you reading this? Have you ever worked with tagua nut?
Mammoth ivory is pretty expensive, and you'd need a fair sized chunk (remember, it's not just a rim, it's an insert that also forms the inside of the cup). You'd also still have the potential of running into "burden of proof" issues if you ever lost the documentation.
Some people find any sort of "legal ivory" problematic; as they see it, any trade in ivory has the potential to encourage poaching and illegal trade. Part of the problem is that there's no fundamental difference between legal and illegal ivory - it's all just paperwork, and that's easily faked or forged.
There's also "vegetable ivory" (tagua nut). It's not expensive, and I think you can get a tagua nut that would be large enough, but I'm not sure if it's got the requisite properties for the job.
Doug Elliott, are you reading this? Have you ever worked with tagua nut?
- DakoJack
- Posts: 137
- Joined: Apr 17, 2018
Just for the sake of clarity this post was in search of info and I appreciate everyone's feedback. But I am not looking for a new mouthpiece to play on I play a Pickett 6M with a gold rim and I love it actually just bought a new one for my big horn I think they've hooked me for good great mps. That being said feel free to continue this conversation lots of interesting stuff I'm just not personally looking for a mp to play on.
- u_2bobone
- Posts: 474
- Joined: Mar 25, 2018
I played recorder for many years and acquired a Dolmetsch soprano [descant] from a friend that was gifted to him by the Von Trapp family. It has a genuine ivory mouthpiece. Later instruments that I purchased [Moeck - Huber] had ivory-looking trim rings that were impossible to tell from the real item. I was assured that it was artificial ivory and it even had the "veining" so obvious in real ivory. I never learned the name of the material but definitely am aware of its existence. It would take an expert eye to tell them apart.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
There are exemptions and accommodations for ivory on old instruments and recently fabricated mammoth ivory but... you are depending on every inquiring border/customs/wildlife official you encounter from now forward being aware and competent in all the intricacies of the rules.
Numerous stories of instruments being confiscated/refused/banned even with appropriate documentation...
https://slippedisc.com/?s=ivory
Numerous stories of instruments being confiscated/refused/banned even with appropriate documentation...
https://slippedisc.com/?s=ivory
- BassBoneBen
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Apr 25, 2018
Once again I'm just thinking out loud here, I was genuinely curious if anybody had done that, I would hope that if you had a mouthpiece that you did this with with Mammoth or walrus that was scavenged according to Alaska department of fishing games rules, if you could take it to an ivory shop and if they could actually do a decent replica or not.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Yes I'm reading this...
I have some off-white threaded pieces that I suppose may be Olds Ivory inserts but I don't know what they actually are. I'm sure I can make something to fit an existing underpart, which I don't have.
I have some off-white threaded pieces that I suppose may be Olds Ivory inserts but I don't know what they actually are. I'm sure I can make something to fit an existing underpart, which I don't have.
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
Mammoth ivory may be problematic for a mouthpiece. My instrument maker has made a few and says he now refuses to work with that material because it's too porous (more than horn or elephant ivory), the material absorbs moisture and expands, changing how it plays, and in some cases causing cracking.