Max water temp for cleaning

CraigTbone · by **CraigTbone** » 2022-12-05 9:27 a.m.

I confess up front that my question concerns a tuba. I played trombone in my church ensemble for 25 years. Then 3 years ago our 80 something tubist declared he could no longer manage the weight of the tuba. I bought his C tuba, a Conn 3J, took some lessons and now I am the lead tubist, well, the only tubist in the section.

It has been said that Bach used a laquer that was sensetive to high temp. I have used mildly warm water for my tbones, approx 100°F. My household hot water is 125°F, just at the level of pain for me.

Do any of you folk know if cealing my Conn tuba with 125°F water would be harmful to the laquer or anything else?

The reason I want to do that is I have noticed that the valve oil forms a film in and near the valves. High temp water can wash that away without scrubbing. The film builds up in a week or two so frequent flushing with hot water should help a lot. I do not want to damage anything though.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2022-12-05 9:37 a.m.

How old is the tuba? Around the 1950s Conn started using an epoxy lacquer called LustreConn that can withstand pretty high temperatures.

If it's sprayed with cellulose lacquer, the rule is no hotter than you can stand. Your hot water should be OK as long as you don't leave it to soak for hours on end. The temperature you use with your trombones is probably better.

CraigTbone · by **CraigTbone** » 2022-12-05 9:43 a.m.

Hmm. I do not know the age. The serial number is hand engraved. I do not know where to research the serial number to determine the age. It looks maybe 20 to 30 years old but difficult to tell.

brassmedic · by **brassmedic** » 2022-12-05 9:46 a.m.

Water that hot can definitely damage lacquer. The best way to clean any brass instrument at home is by using dish soap and brushing it out. Running tap water alone through it isn't going to do much, hot or not.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2022-12-05 10:26 a.m.

According to the Conn Loyalist, 3J is an Eb tuba. CC tubas are 2J, 48J, and a bunch in the 80 series.

The 2J and 48J are quite old (from the 1920s). It's actually possible that there is not even a lacquer coat on the tuba if it's that old. Unlacquered instruments don't care about temperature since the lacquer can't flake off.

If it's a later instrument, it probably has LustreConn epoxy lacquer and the water temperature is not as important.

CraigTbone · by **CraigTbone** » 2022-12-05 10:50 a.m.

"3J" is stamped on the bell and it definitely is CC. Serial No. 320-36-6645. It does have a laquer finish.

I do a thorough cleaning several times per year, including removing all valves & slides, brushing with trombone snake, but the oil film builds up quickly.

On this subject, are there any cleaning systems (flexible brush snake type brushes) that work better?

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2022-12-05 10:57 a.m.

Might be worth using a different valve oil as well.

CraigTbone · by **CraigTbone** » 2022-12-05 11:24 a.m.

I have been using oil I mixed: ultra pure lamp oil + mineral oil. If I recall correctly most oils are mostly those components?

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2022-12-05 11:50 a.m.

Just use some Ultra Pure valve oil!

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2022-12-05 1:43 p.m.

What do you mean by a "film" building up? Like are you getting oily sludge around the valve areas?

If you are mixing two different viscosity oils, the valve action may in fact be creating an emulsion, which is not what you want. It may also be creating an emulsion with water.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2022-12-05 2:01 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]Just use some Ultra Pure valve oil![/quote]

:good:

Bonearzt · by **Bonearzt** » 2022-12-05 3:34 p.m.

If the water feels warm, it's too hot!!!

NO need beyond what comes out of the cold tap!

As mentioned, water & dish soap suffices!!!

Hot water ONLY for mouthpieces!!!!

CraigTbone · by **CraigTbone** » 2022-12-05 3:44 p.m.

I started mixing the oil because the valves did not feel well lubricated with just ultra pure lamp oil. I will try the lamp oil again however.

The film does look white-ish, like an emulsion with water. Oily film (sludge) in and aroind the valves.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2022-12-05 3:52 p.m.

[quote="CraigTbone"]The film does look white-ish, like an emulsion with water. Oily film (sludge) in and around the valves.[/quote] Yep, I had that happen inside my first thayer valve, which was not set up right. It had too much end play, which allowed too much water in and with the movement it mixed with the oil. End result was a white kind "stuff" that was easy to clean up but annoying.

And, yes, many older valve oils were simple mineral oil. However those days are quite far in the past, and there are definitely better alternatives. I know that there are some old school tuba gurus out there who are BIG on the lamp oil thing, but most of my tuba playing friends are not, and use modern oils, which are available in multiple viscosity versions to work with how tight the tolerances are in your valves.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2022-12-05 4:05 p.m.

[quote="CraigTbone"]I started mixing the oil because the valves did not feel well lubricated with just ultra pure lamp oil. I will try the lamp oil again however.

The film does look white-ish, like an emulsion with water. Oily film (sludge) in and aroind the valves.[/quote]

Try real valve oil.

Posaunus · 2022-12-05 4:27 p.m.

[quote="CraigTbone"]I started mixing the oil because the valves did not feel well lubricated with just ultra pure lamp oil. I will try the lamp oil again however.

The film does look white-ish, like an emulsion with water. Oily film (sludge) in and aroind the valves.[/quote]

Skip the lamp oil (urban legend recipe) and use Ultra-Pure <I>Valve Oil</I> - designed for that purpose. Ken Saul at Ultra-Pure knows what he's doing!

Mamaposaune · by **Mamaposaune** » 2022-12-05 5:13 p.m.

I would also suggest swabbing out the valve casings, and wiping down the valves, with isopropyl alcohol before switching oils. You can use a cleaning rod for the casings, similar to cleaning an outer trombone slide.

CraigTbone · by **CraigTbone** » 2022-12-06 8:43 a.m.

What brands of valve oil do you folks recommend?

Ultra-Pure Valve Oil has been mentioned.

I have used Al Cass for decades. Hetmans some.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2022-12-06 9:20 a.m.

I have a Euph with a balky 4th valve. I found only two valve oils that kept that valve working: Blue Juice and Ultra Pure. Note that I'm using Ultra Pure valve oil, not lamp oil. Lamp oil is intended to be burned. Valve oil can be less volatile and last longer.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2022-12-06 10:16 a.m.

Ultra Pure, Hetman, La Tromba all make good oils. How old is the tuba? Newer tubas may have been made with a bit tighter tolerances and like lower viscosity oils, while older tubas that may have more wear usually work better with slightly higher viscosity.

ssking2b · by **ssking2b** » 2022-12-11 7:33 a.m.

[quote="CraigTbone"]What brands of valve oil do you folks recommend?

Ultra-Pure Valve Oil has been mentioned.

I have used Al Cass for decades. Hetmans some.[/quote]

I use resilience oil on all my piston and rotor valves. It works the nest of anything I hav tried.

https://www.resilienceoils.com/

CraigTbone · by **CraigTbone** » 2022-12-12 8:13 a.m.

Thanks for all the input.

I procured some Ultra-Pure Valve Oil, both the regular and the Black (higher viscosity) in case my valves were loose enough to need it. So far the regular is working well. Will see if it builds any of the white film.

The Resilience Oil web site has a good explanation for the advantages of synthetic oils.

CraigTbone · by **CraigTbone** » 2022-12-21 11:22 a.m.

At this point I have been using Ultra-Pure Black valve oil for almost 2 weeks. So far no white film in the valves. I presume that was an emulsion of water with lamp oil & mineral oil. Maybe synthetic oils do not do that?

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2022-12-21 12:17 p.m.

[quote="CraigTbone"]At this point I have been using Ultra-Pure Black valve oil for almost 2 weeks. So far no white film in the valves. I presume that was an emulsion of water with lamp oil & mineral oil. Maybe synthetic oils do not do that?[/quote] Yes and No. I saw a post recently on the "Repair Horror Stories" Facebook group where Blue Juice can make a kind of "goo" when mixed with some lubricants. I have not heard that happening with ultrapure or hetman.

Blue juice does market itself as having an "anti-corrosion agent", and it may also have a detergent, which are usually very good EMULSIFIERS. A lot of people swear by it, but if you are going to use blue juice I would definitely completely clean out the valves with soap and water to get any and all past lubricants out of there.

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Max water temp for cleaning