German-Style Trombone Mouthpieces
- nbulgarino
- Posts: 51
- Joined: May 26, 2018
Hello Trombone Chat!
I have a question about German-Style trombone equipment, specifically mouthpieces.
A few years ago, I bought this trombone off of eBay. I had it looked over at Baltimore Brass, and it turns out it's a Penzel from the 1880's. I don't know much about the horn besides that.
<ATTACHMENT filename="20230110_200028.jpg" index="3">[attachment=3]20230110_200028.jpg</ATTACHMENT>
I do know the dimensions of the horn, and wanted to ask you guys if you knew of period appropriate, or appropriate replica, mouthpieces I could use on this horn. I have measured the receiver and both inner slide tubes in decimal inches. The caliper is snug against the brass.
This is the mouthpiece receiver:
<ATTACHMENT filename="20230110_200313.jpg" index="0">[attachment=0]20230110_200313.jpg</ATTACHMENT>
This is the top tube:
<ATTACHMENT filename="20230110_200235.jpg" index="2">[attachment=2]20230110_200235.jpg</ATTACHMENT>
And bottom tube:
<ATTACHMENT filename="20230110_200247.jpg" index="1">[attachment=1]20230110_200247.jpg</ATTACHMENT>
I have cleaned out the slide and the tuning mechanism works well, and the slide moves fairly ok; I'd say 6/10. I have another German-Style horn on the way, and it will also need a mouthpiece.
I am aware of some general differences, such as American mouthpieces having a more cup/bowl shape, while European mouthpieces are more "V" shaped. I know there are exceptions to the rule, but I am thinking I ought to start by looking for those makes with the "V" profile to them.
I'd appreciate y'all's thoughts on this topic. Thank you!
I have a question about German-Style trombone equipment, specifically mouthpieces.
A few years ago, I bought this trombone off of eBay. I had it looked over at Baltimore Brass, and it turns out it's a Penzel from the 1880's. I don't know much about the horn besides that.
<ATTACHMENT filename="20230110_200028.jpg" index="3">
I do know the dimensions of the horn, and wanted to ask you guys if you knew of period appropriate, or appropriate replica, mouthpieces I could use on this horn. I have measured the receiver and both inner slide tubes in decimal inches. The caliper is snug against the brass.
This is the mouthpiece receiver:
<ATTACHMENT filename="20230110_200313.jpg" index="0">
This is the top tube:
<ATTACHMENT filename="20230110_200235.jpg" index="2">
And bottom tube:
<ATTACHMENT filename="20230110_200247.jpg" index="1">
I have cleaned out the slide and the tuning mechanism works well, and the slide moves fairly ok; I'd say 6/10. I have another German-Style horn on the way, and it will also need a mouthpiece.
I am aware of some general differences, such as American mouthpieces having a more cup/bowl shape, while European mouthpieces are more "V" shaped. I know there are exceptions to the rule, but I am thinking I ought to start by looking for those makes with the "V" profile to them.
I'd appreciate y'all's thoughts on this topic. Thank you!
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
Schmidt makes some replicas of early to mid-20th century designs, in terms of modern replicas that's as close as you'll get. The alternative is to buy antique mouthpieces, but they are rarely marked, so almost impossible to date, and vary a lot in characteristics.
I'm hoping to get Egger in Basel to start making replicas of earlier mouthpieces.
I'm hoping to get Egger in Basel to start making replicas of earlier mouthpieces.
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
Your receiver measurement isn't ideal, as it's an arbitrary depth inside a taper, but it suggests a Euro shank - or Schaft 2 in German terms - halfway between small and large, would probably be the answer.
<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.schmidt-brass.de/englisch/m ... mbone.html">https://www.schmidt-brass.de/englisch/mouthpieces-trombone.html</LINK_TEXT> - scroll to Romantic, reproductions including a Penzel
<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.schmidt-brass.de/englisch/m ... mbone.html">https://www.schmidt-brass.de/englisch/mouthpieces-trombone.html</LINK_TEXT> - scroll to Romantic, reproductions including a Penzel
- MStarke
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Jan 01, 2019
Nice instrument, certainly worth exploring with a suitable mouthpiece.
Same as the instruments themselves, German mouthpieces are all but standardized.
I remember I have seen very very diverse measurements somewhere, so there is no totally definite answer of what's best and/or historically most correct.
Still one key point: traditional German trombones typically don't have a leadpipe as American trombones have. That's why with comparably open American mouthpieces they are very unfocused and not really playable.
So German mouthpieces normally have a small throat and/or backbore, but often a relatively normal (whatever that may be?) cup volume and some even a very deep cup.
In addition to Schmidt and Egger I can also recommend to try the JK Klier Gosling model (not on the website!). It's a nice piece and seems to work well with a Kruspe Weschke in Berlin.
Same as the instruments themselves, German mouthpieces are all but standardized.
I remember I have seen very very diverse measurements somewhere, so there is no totally definite answer of what's best and/or historically most correct.
Still one key point: traditional German trombones typically don't have a leadpipe as American trombones have. That's why with comparably open American mouthpieces they are very unfocused and not really playable.
So German mouthpieces normally have a small throat and/or backbore, but often a relatively normal (whatever that may be?) cup volume and some even a very deep cup.
In addition to Schmidt and Egger I can also recommend to try the JK Klier Gosling model (not on the website!). It's a nice piece and seems to work well with a Kruspe Weschke in Berlin.
- slipmo
- Posts: 295
- Joined: Apr 13, 2018
Hey Nick!
Nice Deutsche Posaune! I don't think it's as old as Baltimore Brass says it is, looking at the machining and the assembly style I'd guess probably more likely its from the 1920s. It also doesn't look like a Penzel to my eyes looking at the garland style. Does it say JC Penzel on the garland, or reference Penzel with another makers name? it could be made by one of his students or apprentices who opened their own shop, for example both Robert Schopper and G. Ullmann were apprentices of Penzel (and both claimed to be his successor! some old school trombone maker drama). I'll attach a photo of an Ullmann where you can see it references JC Penzel on it.
Tim Dowling made some nice videos about old German trombones on youtube, very good information for anyone seeking out more about these special trombones: <YOUTUBE id="hJhJqfjFRCk">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJhJqfjFRCk</YOUTUBE>
It can be difficult to measure the actual slide bore on these old trombones because the stockings are soldered on. If this is the case on yours, if you measure at the end of the slide tubes your measurements will be larger than the actual bore of the tube.
Regardless, I love all the attention historical trombones are getting these days. These instruments make wonderful sounds and it is very satisfying to play repertoire on them that is period appropriate (especially if you can convince you section mates to play romantic posaunen too)
I can give a good plug for Schmidt mouthpieces as well. I have a handful of original pieces and some of his replicas and they are well done. I do hope that Max can convince Egger to make some romantic pieces available too :pant:
Nice Deutsche Posaune! I don't think it's as old as Baltimore Brass says it is, looking at the machining and the assembly style I'd guess probably more likely its from the 1920s. It also doesn't look like a Penzel to my eyes looking at the garland style. Does it say JC Penzel on the garland, or reference Penzel with another makers name? it could be made by one of his students or apprentices who opened their own shop, for example both Robert Schopper and G. Ullmann were apprentices of Penzel (and both claimed to be his successor! some old school trombone maker drama). I'll attach a photo of an Ullmann where you can see it references JC Penzel on it.
Tim Dowling made some nice videos about old German trombones on youtube, very good information for anyone seeking out more about these special trombones: <YOUTUBE id="hJhJqfjFRCk">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJhJqfjFRCk</YOUTUBE>
It can be difficult to measure the actual slide bore on these old trombones because the stockings are soldered on. If this is the case on yours, if you measure at the end of the slide tubes your measurements will be larger than the actual bore of the tube.
Regardless, I love all the attention historical trombones are getting these days. These instruments make wonderful sounds and it is very satisfying to play repertoire on them that is period appropriate (especially if you can convince you section mates to play romantic posaunen too)
I can give a good plug for Schmidt mouthpieces as well. I have a handful of original pieces and some of his replicas and they are well done. I do hope that Max can convince Egger to make some romantic pieces available too :pant:
- nbulgarino
- Posts: 51
- Joined: May 26, 2018
Noah,
Thanks for chiming in. I agree; historic trombones need more spotlight! I enjoy collecting and performing on them.
At the risk of talking about the instrument more than the mouthpiece, the only other identifying marker on the horn is the number 783 in the font below:
<ATTACHMENT filename="20230112_001607.jpg" index="0">[attachment=0]20230112_001607.jpg</ATTACHMENT>
The garland on the horn is blank; no markings of any kind are on the bell section.
I was told based on the bell section and tuning in slide mechanism that it was late 1880's; perhaps an experimental horn made in that shop since the generation of German horns after had that feature. The slide does have the floating top tube.
I did end up contacting Schmidt mouthpieces, and a Penzel copy is on the way! I appreciate all of your input, and maybe I can post this (and the other one I just bought) in the main instrument thread to talk about more original romantic instruments!
Thanks for chiming in. I agree; historic trombones need more spotlight! I enjoy collecting and performing on them.
At the risk of talking about the instrument more than the mouthpiece, the only other identifying marker on the horn is the number 783 in the font below:
<ATTACHMENT filename="20230112_001607.jpg" index="0">
The garland on the horn is blank; no markings of any kind are on the bell section.
I was told based on the bell section and tuning in slide mechanism that it was late 1880's; perhaps an experimental horn made in that shop since the generation of German horns after had that feature. The slide does have the floating top tube.
I did end up contacting Schmidt mouthpieces, and a Penzel copy is on the way! I appreciate all of your input, and maybe I can post this (and the other one I just bought) in the main instrument thread to talk about more original romantic instruments!
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
"Blank" instruments are common. They are sometimes exam instruments by apprentices - they needed, and still need, to build an instrument as their exam to become "master instrument builder". Or sometimes they are instrument provided by a maker to a shop to be sold as a stencil instrument, but the shop just didn't add any engraving.
I agree I don't see a reason to think it's a Penzel specifically, lots of makers at the time, and it's really difficult to tell them apart, since even instruments by a single maker vary a lot!
.480/.510 is tiny (and it's measured at the stockings so it's even smaller), wich to me also likely indicates a later date, as these very narrow bore became popular in the 20th century, especially with soloists. In the 19th century they tend to be somewhat bigger.
I agree I don't see a reason to think it's a Penzel specifically, lots of makers at the time, and it's really difficult to tell them apart, since even instruments by a single maker vary a lot!
.480/.510 is tiny (and it's measured at the stockings so it's even smaller), wich to me also likely indicates a later date, as these very narrow bore became popular in the 20th century, especially with soloists. In the 19th century they tend to be somewhat bigger.
- slipmo
- Posts: 295
- Joined: Apr 13, 2018
You might consider the Weschke copy too, that might be a good match for this bore size. Enjoy playing it!!!
- nbulgarino
- Posts: 51
- Joined: May 26, 2018
I just purchased another German-style trombone from Ukraine (some of you may have seen it on eBay, but I figured it'd be a good companion for this horn). I will post it and seek a mouthpiece for that one too when it gets here.
- Retrobone
- Posts: 72
- Joined: Sep 24, 2018
[quote="LeTromboniste"]"Blank" instruments are common. They are sometimes exam instruments by apprentices - they needed, and still need, to build an instrument as their exam to become "master instrument builder". Or sometimes they are instrument provided by a maker to a shop to be sold as a stencil instrument, but the shop just didn't add any engraving.
I agree I don't see a reason to think it's a Penzel specifically, lots of makers at the time, and it's really difficult to tell them apart, since even instruments by a single maker vary a lot!
.480/.510 is tiny (and it's measured at the stockings so it's even smaller), wich to me also likely indicates a later date, as these very narrow bore became popular in the 20th century, especially with soloists. In the 19th century they tend to be somewhat bigger.[/quote]
I have measured dozens of 19th C German trombones. Without exception uniformly large bore to very large bore. The first small bore German-style Romantic trombone was the Kruspe Weschke model with 11.4 parallel bore or thereabouts. Later other makers followed suit such as Leopold Mitsching with his Alschausky models, which became Kuhn and later Lätzsch.
I own a Penzel trombone. If the OP's trombone were a genuine Penzel I'm certain it would be engraved as such.
I also own two Schmidt Penzel copy mouthpieces. I'll try to add a pic asap.
</IMG>[/img]
I agree I don't see a reason to think it's a Penzel specifically, lots of makers at the time, and it's really difficult to tell them apart, since even instruments by a single maker vary a lot!
.480/.510 is tiny (and it's measured at the stockings so it's even smaller), wich to me also likely indicates a later date, as these very narrow bore became popular in the 20th century, especially with soloists. In the 19th century they tend to be somewhat bigger.[/quote]
I have measured dozens of 19th C German trombones. Without exception uniformly large bore to very large bore. The first small bore German-style Romantic trombone was the Kruspe Weschke model with 11.4 parallel bore or thereabouts. Later other makers followed suit such as Leopold Mitsching with his Alschausky models, which became Kuhn and later Lätzsch.
I own a Penzel trombone. If the OP's trombone were a genuine Penzel I'm certain it would be engraved as such.
I also own two Schmidt Penzel copy mouthpieces. I'll try to add a pic asap.
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
Nice to see you back here again Tim!
- Retrobone
- Posts: 72
- Joined: Sep 24, 2018
[quote="LeTromboniste"]Nice to see you back here again Tim![/quote]
I've been lurking...
I've been lurking...
- Tbarh
- Posts: 505
- Joined: Aug 16, 2018
[quote="Retrobone"]<QUOTE author="LeTromboniste" post_id="198893" time="1673513125" user_id="3038">
"Blank" instruments are common. They are sometimes exam instruments by apprentices - they needed, and still need, to build an instrument as their exam to become "master instrument builder". Or sometimes they are instrument provided by a maker to a shop to be sold as a stencil instrument, but the shop just didn't add any engraving.
I agree I don't see a reason to think it's a Penzel specifically, lots of makers at the time, and it's really difficult to tell them apart, since even instruments by a single maker vary a lot!
.480/.510 is tiny (and it's measured at the stockings so it's even smaller), wich to me also likely indicates a later date, as these very narrow bore became popular in the 20th century, especially with soloists. In the 19th century they tend to be somewhat bigger.[/quote]
I have measured dozens of 19th C German trombones. Without exception uniformly large bore to very large bore. The first small bore German-style Romantic trombone was the Kruspe Weschke model with 11.4 parallel bore or thereabouts. Later other makers followed suit such as Leopold Mitsching with his Alschausky models, which became Kuhn and later Lätzsch.
I own a Penzel trombone. If the OP's trombone were a genuine Penzel I'm certain it would be engraved as such.
I also own two Schmidt Penzel copy mouthpieces. I'll try to add a pic asap.
</IMG>[/img]
</QUOTE>
Cool ! Do You know the specs of these mouthpieces ? ( inner rim diameter,cup shape/depths , throatsize etc.. )
Thanks !
Trond
"Blank" instruments are common. They are sometimes exam instruments by apprentices - they needed, and still need, to build an instrument as their exam to become "master instrument builder". Or sometimes they are instrument provided by a maker to a shop to be sold as a stencil instrument, but the shop just didn't add any engraving.
I agree I don't see a reason to think it's a Penzel specifically, lots of makers at the time, and it's really difficult to tell them apart, since even instruments by a single maker vary a lot!
.480/.510 is tiny (and it's measured at the stockings so it's even smaller), wich to me also likely indicates a later date, as these very narrow bore became popular in the 20th century, especially with soloists. In the 19th century they tend to be somewhat bigger.[/quote]
I have measured dozens of 19th C German trombones. Without exception uniformly large bore to very large bore. The first small bore German-style Romantic trombone was the Kruspe Weschke model with 11.4 parallel bore or thereabouts. Later other makers followed suit such as Leopold Mitsching with his Alschausky models, which became Kuhn and later Lätzsch.
I own a Penzel trombone. If the OP's trombone were a genuine Penzel I'm certain it would be engraved as such.
I also own two Schmidt Penzel copy mouthpieces. I'll try to add a pic asap.
</QUOTE>
Cool ! Do You know the specs of these mouthpieces ? ( inner rim diameter,cup shape/depths , throatsize etc.. )
Thanks !
Trond
- Retrobone
- Posts: 72
- Joined: Sep 24, 2018
[quote="Tbarh"]
Cool ! Do You know the specs of these mouthpieces ? ( inner rim diameter,cup shape/depths , throatsize etc.. )
Thanks !
Trond[/quote]
From the Schmidt website
J. C. Penzel outer diameter 38,6mm inner rim 25,4mm depth 26,5mm bore 6,0mm
Cool ! Do You know the specs of these mouthpieces ? ( inner rim diameter,cup shape/depths , throatsize etc.. )
Thanks !
Trond[/quote]
From the Schmidt website
J. C. Penzel outer diameter 38,6mm inner rim 25,4mm depth 26,5mm bore 6,0mm
- Tbarh
- Posts: 505
- Joined: Aug 16, 2018
[quote="Retrobone"]<QUOTE author="Tbarh" post_id="201085" time="1675332680" user_id="3637">
Cool ! Do You know the specs of these mouthpieces ? ( inner rim diameter,cup shape/depths , throatsize etc.. )
Thanks !
Trond[/quote]
From the Schmidt website
J. C. Penzel outer diameter 38,6mm inner rim 25,4mm depth 26,5mm bore 6,0mm
</QUOTE>
Not to far from the Conn Remington then (which supposedly are based on a Kruspe <EMOJI seq="1f609" tseq="1f609">😉</EMOJI>)
Cool ! Do You know the specs of these mouthpieces ? ( inner rim diameter,cup shape/depths , throatsize etc.. )
Thanks !
Trond[/quote]
From the Schmidt website
J. C. Penzel outer diameter 38,6mm inner rim 25,4mm depth 26,5mm bore 6,0mm
</QUOTE>
Not to far from the Conn Remington then (which supposedly are based on a Kruspe <EMOJI seq="1f609" tseq="1f609">😉</EMOJI>)
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
I did not know that the Remington was based on a Kruspe... That explains the oddly tiny bore, which is close to 6mm.
Maybe also the odd choice of shank and receiver taper, and the long shank. It all works together but it's very different from any American designs.
Maybe also the odd choice of shank and receiver taper, and the long shank. It all works together but it's very different from any American designs.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I measured my Remington (supplied with my Conn 88H) as ~25.6mm Cup I.D.; 6.15mm Throat; funnel-shaped Cup. I could never get used to this mouthpiece, and quickly dropped it. Interesting that it's based on a German Kruspe. Perhaps I should try it again, 40+ years later! Maybe I'll achieve a "teutonic sound!"
Ironically, I seem to get along well with the small-shank Connstellation "Remington" on my Conn 79H. I measure it as 25.55mm Cup I.D.; 6.15mm Throat. Probably a similar Cup shape. Obviously the backbore is different. I can't explain my preference. :idk:
Ironically, I seem to get along well with the small-shank Connstellation "Remington" on my Conn 79H. I measure it as 25.55mm Cup I.D.; 6.15mm Throat. Probably a similar Cup shape. Obviously the backbore is different. I can't explain my preference. :idk:
- CalgaryTbone
- Posts: 1460
- Joined: May 10, 2018
There was an article in an old Trombone Journal - interviewing the Pittsburgh trombone section (from the late 70's early 80's?). They were all Conn players and mostly Remington trained. If I remember this correctly, one of them had found the old Kruspe mouthpiece that the Remington was copied from, and had restored it and was playing it. I've also heard that the 8H/88H were loosely based on a Kruspe trombone, as was the 8D French Horn.
Jim Scott
Jim Scott
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Conn in the old days was tremendously into R&D, unlike any other manufacturers I'm aware of. It was a huge company that produced large quantities of high quality instruments at their own factory.