Slide end bumper?

BrianJohnston · by **BrianJohnston** » 2023-01-22 2:32 p.m.

Ok, the bumper at the end of the slide that keeps it from sliding from underneath you when it's rested on the ground...

Does it make a "noticeable" sound difference on and off?

I'm only re-bringing this ridiculous can of worms to the forefront because I've noticed many major trombone sections play WITHOUT them. I want to double check what the popular opinion is.

norbie2018 · by **norbie2018** » 2023-01-22 2:36 p.m.

Try it for yourself. I felt there was an improvement in response, but nothing came through that I could notice when recording. Feeling more secure in the high range isn't a bad deal for the cost.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2023-01-22 2:46 p.m.

Everything makes a difference. Whether it's worth it is up to you.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2023-01-22 4:44 p.m.

Business opportunity - slide bumpers in different materials and weights.

Posaunus · 2023-01-22 5:06 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]Business opportunity - slide bumpers in different materials and weights.[/quote]

And shapes. Remember - some of us listen with our eyes!

ithinknot · by **ithinknot** » 2023-01-22 5:14 p.m.

Get yourself a nice pink one that doubles as a long range eraser

[quote="BrianJohnston"]Does it make a "noticeable" sound difference on and off?[/quote]
Yes, the slide hitting the floor is noticeably louder with it off

I'm all for freedom of conscience on this issue, but the idea that "popular opinion" would be of interest is, well, interesting...

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2023-01-22 5:33 p.m.

I took it off in college and never put one back on. I notice a small difference.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2023-01-22 5:57 p.m.

I don't play well enough to notice the difference, but I like having it there so my slide doesn't move around on the floor when I'm in rest position. Note that the Martin in my avatar doesn't have provision for one.

hornbuilder · by **hornbuilder** » 2023-01-22 6:10 p.m.

"I" vary more, day to day, than the difference made by the bumper.

Crazy4Tbone86 · by **Crazy4Tbone86** » 2023-01-22 11:14 p.m.

When I remove the rubber bumper on most trombones, I feel like my attacks are more immediate and I have a little more articulation clarity. However, it appears to be mostly my personal feedback. When I played with and without the rubber bumper for some of my brass playing peers (they are solid musicians) in a concert hall, they heard no difference.

However, I have heard from other players that have tested instruments with and without bumpers for peers musicians and the observers did notice a difference in clarity. Of course, different performance venues can create favorable or unfavorable conditions to hear subtle differences in sound.

I like the way some of my horns play without the rubber bumper. In the end, I choose to keep the bumpers on because I am fearful that I will rest the slide on a hard surface floor and the bumperless crook guard will slide around and cause damage to the crook and/or slide!

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2023-01-22 11:27 p.m.

[quote="ithinknot"]Get yourself a nice pink one that doubles as a long range eraser[/quote]

That was actually the first thing I thought of.

I often move the music on the stand with my slide bumper. That doesn"t work without it.

ithinknot · by **ithinknot** » 2023-01-23 12:16 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]I often move the music on the stand with my slide bumper. That doesn"t work without it.[/quote]

But without it you can skewer the small mammals that prowl the cafetorium - sure, it's a trade-off, but it's still a free lunch

DonH · by **DonH** » 2023-01-23 12:56 p.m.

I remember something about looking for hair on your palms....

greenbean · by **greenbean** » 2023-01-23 1:02 p.m.

I have one bumper that is blue! I don’t know where I got it, but it is the best playing bumper of all the ones I have. Very resonant.

calcbone · by **calcbone** » 2023-01-23 1:12 p.m.

My bass definitely responds better for me without it.

I haven't really bothered experimenting with it on my other horns. My Bach 8 didn't have one when I got it. My 36 is VERY lively, so I wouldn't want to try it without the bumper. In any case, I've avoided resting my horn on the slide for many years, so sliding on the floor isn't an issue :good:

LIBrassCo · by **LIBrassCo** » 2023-01-23 2:38 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]Business opportunity - slide bumpers in different materials and weights.[/quote]

Hold my beer

KWL · by **KWL** » 2023-01-23 2:46 p.m.

(Checking calendar) Nope, not April 1st.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2023-01-23 3:22 p.m.

[quote="greenbean"]I have one bumper that is blue! I don’t know where I got it, but it is the best playing bumper of all the ones I have. Very resonant.[/quote]

I have a blue rubber plunger. I use it when playing jazz and blues. Very fine match! I can really color my tone :good:

Danitrb · by **Danitrb** » 2023-01-23 3:34 p.m.

It's so hard to notice differences while you play with or without a tiny piece of bumper. I'm sure if you listen without looking, or play with a blindfold wouldn't notice any difference. Maybe people who notice difference have put it in their head that playing without bumper will make them play better. It's just a mental trigger. Put the bumper on end of slide and protect the floor of your home or any other rooms.

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2023-01-23 3:52 p.m.

The placebo effect is real.

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2023-01-23 3:58 p.m.

I stand by my earlier comment. I'm a very good player and I notice a difference.

Two of the best trombone players I've ever heard - Scott Hartman and John Kitzman - are adamant about removing the slide bumper. Kitzman used to remove them from the slides of all his students and keep them in a drawer in his office at SMU.

BrianJohnston · 2023-01-23 9:31 p.m.

I "like" how this has become a "joke" comment thread.

I'm serious about my question. It's discussed at a higher level, and definitely not placebo effect.

Kdanielsen · by **Kdanielsen** » 2023-01-23 9:38 p.m.

[quote="BrianJohnston"]I "like" how this has become a "joke" comment thread by many trombonists who probably can barely play their instruments.

I'm serious about my question. It's discussed at a higher level, and definitely not placebo effect.[/quote]

Not placebo. I can feel the difference. Not sure anyone can hear it.

greenbean · by **greenbean** » 2023-01-23 9:42 p.m.

Man, I had no idea! Sorry if my jokey comment was disrespectful. I have never heard of this. I do recall a thread or two on the old TTF but they were not very serious.

More seriously... I suspect that, like a lot of equipment tweaks, the difference can be heard from behind the bell but much less so - or not at all - in front of the bell.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2023-01-23 9:43 p.m.

[quote="BrianJohnston"]I "like" how this has become a "joke" comment thread by many trombonists who probably can barely play their instruments.

I'm serious about my question. It's discussed at a higher level, and definitely not placebo effect.[/quote]
Maybe this has turned humorous but I wouldn’t assume the level of someone’s playing that you don’t know.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2023-01-23 9:55 p.m.

Each time we have had this discussion we get people who claim they can hear/feel a difference. Generally these are people with a lot of time on the horn playing at very elevated levels. For us plebiana, it probably makes no difference. For those of you who can hear a difference, good luck however you choose to play.

Personally, I would doubt that the presence or absence of the bumper is going to be the margin that makes you win a prestigious audition but if it makes you happy you will play better and that would make the difference.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2023-01-24 1:55 a.m.

Has anyone ever tried cutting/filing off the boss that holds the bumper? Or even removing the entire crook guard?

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2023-01-24 2:41 a.m.

Has anybody tried a blind test and been right 100%?

Danitrb · by **Danitrb** » 2023-01-24 2:53 a.m.

My comment was not joking. I have thought many times about this and my conclusion is: if I were blindfolded I would not notice any difference. Almost all top players play with bumpers.

ithinknot · by **ithinknot** » 2023-01-24 4:40 a.m.

[quote="BrianJohnston"]I "like" how this has become a "joke" comment thread by many trombonists who probably can barely play their instruments.

I'm serious about my question. It's discussed at a higher level, and definitely not placebo effect.[/quote]

Oh, fine: I'll return to my original - and entirely serious - point.

As a serious player, if the difference is meaningful and significant to you on whichever grounds... why do you need to ask?

I would never claim that the change couldn't be noticed. Certainly, minor weight changes at the crook end have a relatively significant effect on ergonomics given the leverage involved. Last year I rebuilt a slide with a slightly heavier crook arrangement (somewhere around 8g, IIRC) and it felt like a completely different beast in the hand. I don't doubt that a back-to-back difference of 2g or so could be noticeable on a well aligned slide with which one is familiar. Whether any difference in response is significant at a level that survives blind testing or outweighs the practical/precautionary function of the bumper is another matter.

It's interesting that Thein always uses especially large spherical bumpers, presumably to make the response especially bad. Or is that what makes them so expensive?

And from the serious world of applied physics: have you considered the degree to which excess water key spring tension is affecting the vibrational mechanics of your slide crook? Enjoy the nightmares.

SimmonsTrombone · by **SimmonsTrombone** » 2023-01-24 6:07 a.m.

I was always taught the slide should never touch the floor, so I don’t find the bumpers necessary.

LIBrassCo · by **LIBrassCo** » 2023-01-24 6:56 a.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]Has anybody tried a blind test and been right 100%?[/quote]

There's no way, I'd take that bet right now. I'd take the same bet for a slide lock too.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2023-01-24 7:06 a.m.

I'm not saying that this is directly comparable to this, but there is precedent for people at very high levels of performance to still be influenced by something that I believe to completely or at least majorly be the placebo effect in the form of "balance hologram braclets" from about a decade ago:

<ATTACHMENT filename="power balance.jpg" index="0">~~[attachment=0]~~power balance.jpg</ATTACHMENT>

At least a few athletes believed (or maybe still do?) that a hologram bracelet increased their balance and energy levels.

“I don’t know how it does what it does,” said Odom, who turned Lakers Derek Fisher and Jordan Farmar onto the bands. “But wearing it helps my agility and has kept me from falling to the floor as much as I used to. I feel more energy and flexibility. So every game, I wear Power Balance.”

Source: <LINK_TEXT text="https://www.ocregister.com/2010/06/14/p ... must-have/">https://www.ocregister.com/2010/06/14/pb-wristband-a-sports-must-have/</LINK_TEXT>

I think there's a much more compelling basis that a firm piece of rubber at a critical point of an instrument can alter how something it's attached to vibrates. However, I don't anticipate that someone would be able to perceive the difference on the other side of the bell with 80-90% consistency while blindfolded. I likewise find the difference to be at least perceivable on the player side. Still, as mentioned, I doubt I'd be able to consistently identify which was which while blindfolded.

Remember that the crook itself is not very heavy, so a rubber nipple may constitute some meaningful percentage of its overall weight. A couple of things that someone could try if they were so inclined would be to see if:

1) Is the change as obvious if the nipple is comically large (perhaps like a light foam ball)? Or filled with material (but still light), such as a stress ball filled with water or sand?

2) If the tip is removed and replaced with a small piece of something such as masking tape?

3) If the tip is likewise attached to the crook, but not by sliding it over the tip, but perhaps taped to the crook? (In other words, is the tightness of the rubber against the tip causing it to dampen sound? Or is it the actual mass of the rubber?)

If all of these consistently change the sound, I would suggest that it is likely not completely placebo. With something so small, though, I doubt anyone would be completely impervious to a placebo even if the effects themselves are real (in other words, the effect could be possibly exaggerated rather than manufactured).

Although... the benefit to proving or disproving placebo may be dubious. Placebo is such a strong influence that people who know that they are receiving a placebo still have physiologically, measurable response to it. Therefore, if you think removing the nipple will help your playing, even if it does not, it will.

bigbandbone · by **bigbandbone** » 2023-01-24 7:34 a.m.

I never let my slide touch the floor, so when I built my slide I went with a light weight guard without a bumper.

Kdanielsen · by **Kdanielsen** » 2023-01-24 7:38 a.m.

I will say that my alto, which is very light, has a huge solid rubber spherical bumper. It’s goofy looking. That definitely changes things a lot. It’s better with it on.

biggiesmalls · by **biggiesmalls** » 2023-01-24 9:12 a.m.

I often buy horns with missing slide bumpers.

As a compromise between a big soft bumper and nothing at all, for years I have been using a short length of shrink tubing, cut a few millimeters longer than the bumper boss, shrunk onto the boss with a heat gun or a few quick passes with a butane lighter. Available in multiple colors at most auto parts stores for those who are into making a fashion statement. Being a traditionalist, I usually just go with black.

Never really considered how it affects the sound or response of the horn, but I do like the way the shrink tubing keeps the tip of the slide from sliding around on the floor.

Crazy4Tbone86 · by **Crazy4Tbone86** » 2023-01-24 10:25 a.m.

ithinknot

And from the serious world of applied physics: have you considered the degree to which excess water key spring tension is affecting the vibrational mechanics of your slide crook? Enjoy the nightmares.

Actually…….yes. I like King water keys. Why? Because they have almost infinite flexibility in how you can bend/adjust them and attain the perfect angle of alignment with the water key nipple. Thus, I have replaced many other brand water keys with Kings. Granted…..they are larger and heavier (they are solid brass) than other brands (many other brands are nickel). I just like the way that they can be bent to accommodate corks of assorted heights without resoldering the water key saddle.

The problem……..the standard size spring that is sold to accompany the King water keys is ridiculously too strong. So strong that I refuse to install it at its original tension. I go through a ritual of bending and twisting the springs to reduce the tension before installing them.

Does it make an acoustical difference? I really have no idea. My primary reason for doing is to reduce the probability that the spring will pop the solder connection of the saddle loose! I imagine that the original tension of the King springs would place a lot of stress on the crook and impact the sound.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2023-01-24 3:43 p.m.

[quote="biggiesmalls"]I often buy horns with missing slide bumpers.

As a compromise between a big soft bumper and nothing at all, for years I have been using a short length of shrink tubing, cut a few millimeters longer than the bumper boss, shrunk onto the boss with a heat gun or a few quick passes with a butane lighter. Available in multiple colors at most auto parts stores for those who are into making a fashion statement. Being a traditionalist, I usually just go with black.

Never really considered how it affects the sound or response of the horn, but I do like the way the shrink tubing keeps the tip of the slide from sliding around on the floor.[/quote]

Some here would say that heating the bottom of the slide will also affect the sound. Should this be a new thread? :lol:

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2023-01-24 5:35 p.m.

[quote="Kdanielsen"]<QUOTE author="BrianJohnston" post_id="200184" time="1674527514" user_id="9667">
I "like" how this has become a "joke" comment thread by many trombonists who probably can barely play their instruments.

I'm serious about my question. It's discussed at a higher level, and definitely not placebo effect.[/quote]

Not placebo. I can feel the difference. Not sure anyone can hear it.
</QUOTE>
So, not to be argumentative, but just because you perceive a difference, does not mean that it isn’t just placebo effect.

To wit, there was a recent medical study to define the strength of the placebo effect for some particular condition. For this, they even told some participants they were getting only a placebo. There was still a perceived and measureable effect.

That said, I would be happy if I could perceive any difference in my horns with and without. I haven’t really tested personally. I have been up close and personal with 10’s of ‘$000s of recording equipment with some mentioned is thread…. It doesn’t come through the mics. But if it works for you, go for it

Cheers,

Andy

Kdanielsen · by **Kdanielsen** » 2023-01-24 9:20 p.m.

[quote="elmsandr"]<QUOTE author="Kdanielsen" post_id="200185" time="1674527919" user_id="7231">

Not placebo. I can feel the difference. Not sure anyone can hear it.[/quote]
So, not to be argumentative, but just because you perceive a difference, does not mean that it isn’t just placebo effect.

To wit, there was a recent medical study to define the strength of the placebo effect for some particular condition. For this, they even told some participants they were getting only a placebo. There was still a perceived and measureable effect.

That said, I would be happy if I could perceive any difference in my horns with and without. I haven’t really tested personally. I have been up close and personal with 10’s of ‘$000s of recording equipment with some mentioned is thread…. It doesn’t come through the mics. But if it works for you, go for it

Cheers,

Andy
</QUOTE>

Dude you are WINNING at trombone forum now! Good work!

But you spelled "measurable" wrong so negative '000s of points...

It's impossible to measure how my trombone feels to me. It's not medical science. It's not even any sort of science. It's perception and it's art and it's subjective. I'm not going to claim anyone can hear a difference between having the rubber thingy on or off (regardless of microphone cost), but I do think that some people can feel the difference at their chops. If we are going to say that everything about trombone equipment that is unquantifiable or unprovable in terms of feel is placebo effect, and in turn assume that those things do nothing because they are placebo, where does that leave us?

If it works for you to ignore how your equipment feels, go for it.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2023-01-24 10:41 p.m.

This thread is ridiculous, not the premise, but just the whole circus going on here. It's absolutely worth trying out for yourself, but not something to get hung up on. Here's some anecdotal evidence why:

I noticed that the Pershing's Own all played Alessi 396's, and we're using the counterweight harmonic brace to hold their ear plugs. That doesn't mean that it's something to notate and seriously consider as meaning anything at the professional level. That's just a funny thing they were doing.

A section having no bumpers on their slides is the same thing. It doesn't matter. They could be doing it to prevent a disaster like having the slide bumper accidentally wind up in the rotor during transport in the case. It's happened to me. Halfway through a set my trombone broke -- flat out stopped making noise in the middle of a solo -- and it turned out that the slide bumper was INSIDE my F rotor. It must've popped off putting the slide away. Imagine if that happened in the middle of an orchestra gig! Take it off. Problem solved.

I bet the section would feel bad if their artistry and approach was tied to a question about whether the slide bumper is on their trombones or not. Those poor folks.

Someone related a story about Christian Lindberg one time. He does all kinds of crazy things, like wrapping up his bell, using heavy valve caps, wearing crazy outfits, using a silver trombone with gold trim. What have you. Anyways, in a review of one of his concerts, the critic just talked about how the color of the inside of his bell was different than the outside. And for a very long time after that you would see Lindberg appear with no gold accents on his trombone, and he stopped using the bell wraps. Poor guy must've been horrified that his concert was boiled down to "his trombone was gold inside the bell, but silver outside". And to tell you the truth, he sounded like Christian Lindberg either way. No idea if that story is true, but it's somewhere on here.

No consensus will be reached here on the subject, and that is for the best. Do what works best for you. Only you can answer the question for yourself, of it it makes a difference or not.

henrysa · by **henrysa** » 2023-01-24 11:40 p.m.

That's enough, I'm taking the Oedipus self-imposed punishment and gouging my eyes out, never to see or not see crook nipples again as an additional bonus punishment.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2023-01-25 6:35 a.m.

Harrison, are you suggesting that my dressing like a clown when I practice all this time HASN'T made my playing better? This would be a disappointing revelation to me.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2023-01-25 7:55 a.m.

[quote="Matt K"]Harrison, are you suggesting that my dressing like a clown when I practice all this time HASN'T made my playing better? This would be a disappointing revelation to me.[/quote]

No I'm saying that only you can discover if it makes it better or not. Others be damned!

:D

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2023-01-25 8:47 a.m.

Big relief. I have decided to try to be a little more efficient, I'm thinking that I can replace putting on my clown nose and instead switch to something like this: <LINK_TEXT text="https://brasstache.com/collections/shop ... n-and-tuba">https://brasstache.com/collections/shop-all/products/clip-on-light-up-rudolph-nose-for-brass-mouthpieces-trumpet-trombone-baritone-euphonium-french-horn-and-tuba</LINK_TEXT>

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2023-01-25 10:26 a.m.

[quote="Kdanielsen"]<QUOTE author="elmsandr" post_id="200267" time="1674599735" user_id="147">

So, not to be argumentative, but just because you perceive a difference, does not mean that it isn’t just placebo effect.

To wit, there was a recent medical study to define the strength of the placebo effect for some particular condition. For this, they even told some participants they were getting only a placebo. There was still a perceived and measureable effect.

That said, I would be happy if I could perceive any difference in my horns with and without. I haven’t really tested personally. I have been up close and personal with 10’s of ‘$000s of recording equipment with some mentioned is thread…. It doesn’t come through the mics. But if it works for you, go for it

Cheers,

Andy[/quote]

Dude you are WINNING at trombone forum now! Good work!

But you spelled "measurable" wrong so negative '000s of points...

It's impossible to measure how my trombone feels to me. It's not medical science. It's not even any sort of science. It's perception and it's art and it's subjective. I'm not going to claim anyone can hear a difference between having the rubber thingy on or off (regardless of microphone cost), but I do think that some people can feel the difference at their chops. If we are going to say that everything about trombone equipment that is unquantifiable or unprovable in terms of feel is placebo effect, and in turn assume that those things do nothing because they are placebo, where does that leave us?

If it works for you to ignore how your equipment feels, go for it.
</QUOTE>
My dude… I’m not arguing with you! I’m just trying to share what can be quantified and measured for known placebos. If we spent the millions on a trombone trial that they do on drug trials, we could measure it. Even a subjective “do you feel like this is better” is a measurement of sorts. And if it works, use it!

My theory on this is that we alter our inputs based on feedback that is very small and difficult to measure. There are tools (here I mean data analysis tools) we can use to define those interactions, even on very subjective outputs… but it would take a lot of time and $$ for probably very little conclusive, measurable results.

If I were to argue on this.. I might take offense to the leap from having a slide bumper to “ignoring how your equipment feels”. Seems like there might be a few steps between the two. :D much like a recent comment I had with one of Burgerbob’s reviews, I agree with all your points, I just chose a different result.

Cheers,

Andy

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2023-01-25 11:12 a.m.

Looking forward to the study examining the placement of the rubber bumper and its effect, and the number of such bumpers, and their orientation to each other and significance of same. It may show that one bumper precisely centered on the end of the slide crook is the only place where there is significance.

Kdanielsen · by **Kdanielsen** » 2023-01-25 11:31 a.m.

[quote="elmsandr"]<QUOTE author="Kdanielsen" post_id="200271" time="1674613233" user_id="7231">

Dude you are WINNING at trombone forum now! Good work!

But you spelled "measurable" wrong so negative '000s of points...

It's impossible to measure how my trombone feels to me. It's not medical science. It's not even any sort of science. It's perception and it's art and it's subjective. I'm not going to claim anyone can hear a difference between having the rubber thingy on or off (regardless of microphone cost), but I do think that some people can feel the difference at their chops. If we are going to say that everything about trombone equipment that is unquantifiable or unprovable in terms of feel is placebo effect, and in turn assume that those things do nothing because they are placebo, where does that leave us?

If it works for you to ignore how your equipment feels, go for it.[/quote]
My dude… I’m not arguing with you! I’m just trying to share what can be quantified and measured for known placebos. If we spent the millions on a trombone trial that they do on drug trials, we could measure it. Even a subjective “do you feel like this is better” is a measurement of sorts. And if it works, use it!

My theory on this is that we alter our inputs based on feedback that is very small and difficult to measure. There are tools (here I mean data analysis tools) we can use to define those interactions, even on very subjective outputs… but it would take a lot of time and $$ for probably very little conclusive, measurable results.

If I were to argue on this.. I might take offense to the leap from having a slide bumper to “ignoring how your equipment feels”. Seems like there might be a few steps between the two. :D much like a recent comment I had with one of Burgerbob’s reviews, I agree with all your points, I just chose a different result.

Cheers,

Andy
</QUOTE>

I was crabby when I wrote that. Sorry! This rubber bumper topic gets me all riled up…

droffilcal · by **droffilcal** » 2023-01-26 11:58 a.m.

I heard that Kitzman would listen to his students play with and without bumper and was always able to tell the difference without looking.

Does anyone know if this is true?

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2023-01-26 1:04 p.m.

I guess it's time to perform that experiment I've been postponing on the acoustic effect of rotary valve stop bumper materials. Cork, Plastic, Rubber (Neoprene, Buna-N, EPDM, Viton, ...), Silicone, ...

I'm sure there will be a difference. But will I be able to hear it? Will the audience hear it? Does anyone care?

:idk:

Danitrb · by **Danitrb** » 2023-01-26 2:16 p.m.

I'm still thinking that mind has more power than a bumper to change or improve our playing. Greetings

ithinknot · by **ithinknot** » 2023-01-26 2:43 p.m.

Trigger warning: science

21°C; 45% RH; 85m above sea level

hair - brown; eyes - two; Capricorn

genuine Bostick Blu Tack, fresh from the packet and previously unkneaded by human hands

8g - duller articulation feedback, weight noticeable in hand

4g - as above but less so

2g - not convinced it would survive a blind test, not much difference in mid range but could persuade myself back-to-back flexibilities above high Bb seemed freer without

Test horn has world's heaviest outer (Besson 10-10, 291g ... currently away from home and rest of collection for work); reasonable to assume that differences might be more significant on a lighter slide

Conclusion: time for a snack

DaveAshley · by **DaveAshley** » 2023-01-26 3:03 p.m.

I never have a bumper, because I never rest the weight of the horn on the end of the slide. It's either on a stand or my thigh.

And you know what? I haven't needed a slide job in more than ten years, either.

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2023-01-26 3:30 p.m.

[quote="Danitrb"]I'm still thinking that mind has more power than a bumper to change or improve our playing. Greetings[/quote]

Well, yeah, obviously. The mind has more power than any piece of rubber - or plastic or metal - to improve our playing.

That doesn't mean I don't try to find the trombone and mouthpiece and leather hand guard (or not) and rubber bumper (or not) that makes it easiest for me to get from what's in my mind to sound.

I'm not saying its a big difference - I'm just saying it's a small difference I notice, and I prefer the response without it.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2023-01-26 5:10 p.m.

How long have rubber slide tip bumpers been around? I remember when I started playing in the 1950s (yeah, I'm a certifiably old guy) they weren't common.

As a junior high schooler, when I showed up at my trombone lesson with a shiny new Olds A20 Ambassador, there was no slide bumper on it. My teacher sent me to the local Ford dealer where I was directed to purchase a particular rubber nipple used on a Ford carburetor (remember those?)! Teacher carefully installed it for me, and cautioned me to not lose it. [He also taught me the proper way to apply Pond's Cold Cream. I still have a mostly full jar in my trombone closet!] Great teacher!

Blabberbucket · by **Blabberbucket** » 2023-01-26 7:55 p.m.

[quote="ithinknot"]Trigger warning: science

21°C; 45% RH; 85m above sea level

hair - brown; eyes - two; Capricorn

genuine Bostick Blu Tack, fresh from the packet and previously unkneaded by human hands

8g - duller articulation feedback, weight noticeable in hand

4g - as above but less so

2g - not convinced it would survive a blind test, not much difference in mid range but could persuade myself back-to-back flexibilities above high Bb seemed freer without

Test horn has world's heaviest outer (Besson 10-10, 291g ... currently away from home and rest of collection for work); reasonable to assume that differences might be more significant on a lighter slide

Conclusion: time for a snack[/quote]

This is the way to do this. I'd be curious to work with a highly refined player and install different crook guards of varied materials and weights and see what the impact would be. Removing and installing different guards while a player waits would be reasonably quick and easy. Anyone in the Northeast Indiana area that's interested, I'd be glad to conduct an experiment like this - I'm an experienced brass tech.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2023-01-26 10:39 p.m.

:shock:

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2023-01-27 8:09 a.m.

[quote="Blabberbucket"][/quote]

This is the way to do this. I'd be curious to work with a highly refined player

[/quote]

There is a lot of variability in how we play from day to day, note to note. A highly refined player minimizes this; it still exists.

If you're not being extremely consistent, you don't know whether a sound difference you hear is due to the slide bumper or just you. I suspect that somewhere around 99% of us here are not consistent enough to make that distinction whether or not a difference really exists. I don't doubt that there are some highly professional players here that can both play more consistently than I and hear more distinctly.

I also suspect that at least 90% will hear a difference anyway.

ithinknot · by **ithinknot** » 2023-01-27 9:16 a.m.

[quote="timothy42b"]There is a lot of variability in how we play from day to day, note to note. A highly refined player minimizes this; it still exists.

If you're not being extremely consistent, you don't know whether a sound difference you hear is due to the slide bumper or just you.[/quote]

Yes and no. We're mostly discussing 'feel' and 'response' issues, most or all of which wouldn't make it across the room or reach a mic... which is why this discussion is inherently ridiculous, because everyone should do whatever they want.

I won't claim any great consistency, but I'm confident I can tell the difference between my own momentary flubs and the 'mean average feel' of different setups - especially when repeatedly A/Bing the change, keeping the mouthpiece set on my face in between.

We're talking about the level of 'paying attention to one's self' - within which listening is key, but not all - that makes practice possible... You don't expect ever-increasing applause from bystanders with each repetition of an exercise, but you are (or should be) tuned in to the minutiae of sound/feel/perceived efficiency/comfort in a way that makes practicing seem directed and worthwhile.

SteveM · by **SteveM** » 2023-01-27 11:00 a.m.

Of those players who do notice a difference in response, do any of you prefer to have the rubber bumper on?

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2023-01-27 11:54 a.m.

I know several excellent players who believe that anything and everything makes a difference. Rubber tip versus not, Cork versus felt in the cork barrel, and even cork versus anything else in the spit valve. YES I know people who believe the instrument sounds different with different spit valve material! Do I believe it? Well I haven't done any experiments so I don't know. Maybe we would've heard back from Brian Johnson if we all took this topic as super seriously as he does. But maybe more constructive comments would have been made if he hadn't insulted some player's playing abilities without even hearing them or knowing who they are. Not everyone can be in the Ft Wayne Philharmonic.

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2023-01-27 12:33 p.m.

It’s tempting to see issues like this as black-or-white: something either does or doesn’t make a difference. Like WGWTR180 and others who’ve posted here, I believe (without any scientific evidence or controlled experimentation) that playing without a slide bumper makes a difference to the feedback or response. I also believe, as I mentioned before, that the placebo effect is real.

Because feedback from the instrument is subjective, it’s up to the player to decide what feels best. If the player feels that horn responds in a way that the player perceives as better (whatever that means), then it’s up to the player to make that decision.

In other words, I know the placebo effect is real and  I know everything makes a difference and  I feel that feedback without a bumper feels better—to me.

It might not be a real effect, it might only give me a 1% difference in how things feel, but I need that 1%. In fact, I need all the help I can get!

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2023-01-27 3:37 p.m.

[quote="Kbiggs"]It’s tempting to see issues like this as black-or-white: something either does or doesn’t make a difference. Like WGWTR180 and others who’ve posted here, I believe (without any scientific evidence or controlled experimentation) that playing without a slide bumper makes a difference to the feedback or response. I also believe, as I mentioned before, that the placebo effect is real.

Because feedback from the instrument is subjective, it’s up to the player to decide what feels best. If the player feels that horn responds in a way that the player perceives as better (whatever that means), then it’s up to the player to make that decision.

In other words, I know the placebo effect is real and  I know everything makes a difference and  I feel that feedback without a bumper feels better—to me.

It might not be a real effect, it might only give me a 1% difference in how things feel, but I need that 1%. In fact, I need all the help I can get![/quote]
Again.. I’m not arguing with any of the particulars here. Just want to share some thoughts.

The problem that a lot of data people here will have is in the chain above. Yes, you know placebo is real. You believe no bumper is better, and you feel that it is better so that works. I do agree with that… except the problem is that with no data; if you are blind to it daily what if no bumper is actually worse? The placebo effect is real and could be stronger than the main effect of the bumper, so if you made that decision while not randomized and blind to the effects, you could have skewed the study and chosen incorrectly. It DID feel better and evaluate better based on the test condition. Based on the bias that we know exists. But long term, when thinking about something else while playing, you could be handicapping yourself. That said, I don’t think that could possibly apply to a bumper. To lacquer? Probably a great candidate to test a measurable response change to placebo strength. To a bell choice? Absolutely. I keep doing it with gold brass bells, myself. They’re gorgeous but I just sound better on yellow.

Back to my gold brass bass now… I’ll pull off the bumper, but taking off the hand grip is a pain and needed for this valve section..

Cheers,

Andy

Crazy4Tbone86 · by **Crazy4Tbone86** » 2023-01-27 6:19 p.m.

[quote="SteveM"]Of those players who do notice a difference in response, do any of you prefer to have the rubber bumper on?[/quote]

Yes Steve……me! However, only on the trombone that I am currently (temporarily) playing. Allow me to explain.

My normal equipment is on the heavy side. My “go to” bass trombone is an Edwards that I rebuilt several years ago. The slide is a .572-.578 dual bore with nickel over sleeves and a gold brass .607 bore gold brass crook. The bell is a sanded and buffed down CF 987. The rotor caps have small weights on them. The slide crook has a Bach crook guard and a Bach rubber bumper. I actually prefer the way it plays without the rubber bumper because the articulations are a bit clearer and it responds a little faster. However, I keep the rubber bumper on because I fear that I might accidentally allow the slide to rest on a slippery floor and it might slip/cause damage.

But wait! A little over a month ago, I had surgery on my left hand. Thus, I am working my way back to holding the big horn again. The horn that I have been using for the past 14-15 days is a Bach LT50G. It is the lightest bass trombone I own, so I thought it would be the best horn to get me through this transition as my hand heals. Under normal conditions, the LT slide and the thinner bell are not the perfect match for me. The horn sounds great from p to mf but gets a bit bright and edgy on the loud end. Motivated by this thread, I did the “bumper vs. no bumper” test. As I have indicated on an earlier post, I usually feel a difference and I did notice a difference on this horn. On this Bach LT50G, I actually prefer the bumper ON. Without the bumper, my articulations at loud volumes get a little edgy at a slightly lower volume.

So……for me, the “bumper or no bumper” preference would depend on the horn. I should also note that I am more sensitive to the difference on bigger equipment. I remember trying the “bumper vs. no bumper“ test on some .500 bore horns years ago and it was a toss up. Then again, 95% of my playing is on .525 bore and larger horns. Thus, my lack of sensitivity on smaller horns makes sense.

HawaiiTromboneGuy · by **HawaiiTromboneGuy** » 2023-01-27 9:12 p.m.

Slightly off topic, but does the same hold true for things like pencil holders, hand grips, etc?

hornbuilder · 2023-01-27 9:38 p.m.

Had a client many years ago with a Bach trombone which "played tight and stiff" all of a sudden about 2 weeks prior. I looked it over, couldn't see anything that would change the way the horn played. He had a pencil holder on the top main tuning slide tubing. I asked when he had put it on. He said about 2 weeks ago.

<EMOJI seq="1f642" tseq="1f642">🙂</EMOJI>

I took it off, he played the horn and it was back to being responsive and flexible again.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2023-01-27 9:47 p.m.

[quote="HawaiiTromboneGuy"]Slightly off topic, but does the same hold true for things like pencil holders, hand grips, etc?[/quote]

Yup, that's why I don't use leather grips.

Kdanielsen · by **Kdanielsen** » 2023-01-27 10:22 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="HawaiiTromboneGuy" post_id="200535" time="1674871937" user_id="3695">
Slightly off topic, but does the same hold true for things like pencil holders, hand grips, etc?[/quote]

Yup, that's why I don't use leather grips.
</QUOTE>

I think the bolt on kind change things.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2023-01-27 10:24 p.m.

[quote="Kdanielsen"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="200539" time="1674874042" user_id="3131">

Yup, that's why I don't use leather grips.[/quote]

I think the bolt on kind change things.
</QUOTE>

Yes, I should say I don't dig Rath handbraces and bullet braces for this reason. (though of course my contra has a Rath brace out of necessity)

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2023-01-28 8:53 a.m.

Another reason to avoid the clip ons and a they can break in your case and then you end up with a pencil ok your leadpipe. (Not that this has ever happened to me… 15 minutes before the downbeat of a gig or anything…)

I suspect that Velcro would do a better job but I just get squeamish with putting anything in my case that isn’t a trombone at this point. Or at least anything that could conceivably end up down the leadpipe

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2023-01-28 9:49 a.m.

[quote="HawaiiTromboneGuy"]Slightly off topic, but does the same hold true for things like pencil holders, hand grips, etc?[/quote]

I'll join the chorus of yes. I find it varies a bit with different horns. I use a hand grip on my Bach and don't mind it. I don't like them on my Shires instruments.

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2023-01-28 11:33 a.m.

[quote="HawaiiTromboneGuy"]Slightly off topic, but does the same hold true for things like pencil holders, hand grips, etc?[/quote]

Yes. And for me a similar logic applies. I sometimes need a left hand grip. I tried a right hand one for a while. Do not like what it does. The left hands… I think they are similar, but the difference is small enough that I don’t worry about it. Similar with the velcro pencil holder. The functionality of the pencil is far above any performance or feel gain from removing it.

As for coming loose, I’ve had the pencil holder on my horns for >20 years. Haven’t lost a pencil or had one come loose in the case. I do wrap a bit of tape around the middle of the pencil so that it is a tighter fit in holder, however.

Cheers,

Andy

calcbone · by **calcbone** » 2023-01-28 1:01 p.m.

I used hand grips for a while in college on my 42B and then my Shires, but eventually decided I liked the feel without them—not because of response issues. I do have a Velcro pencil holder that I’ll put on it sometimes.

However, I tried them on my 3B and noticed a definite decrease in the responsiveness of the horn.

Kbiggs · 2023-01-28 1:12 p.m.

[quote="elmsandr"]Again.. I’m not arguing with any of the particulars here. Just want to share some thoughts.

…

Back to my gold brass bass now… I’ll pull off the bumper, but taking off the hand grip is a pain and needed for this valve section..

Cheers,

Andy[/quote]

No problem. And you’re right: It’s a discussion, not an argument.

My view is that so much of making (and appreciating) art is subjective. We try to “objectify the subjective” by assigning a value to something, e.g., a Likert scale, which can be helpful when comparing things. It’s still subjective, based on values, preferences, history, teachers, etc.

We try different things, and ask ourselves questions like, “Does this mouthpiece help overall? What about the high range? Articulation? Does the rim size and shape feel good?” “Does this left/right hand grip help me hold the horn? Does it detract from the sound?” “Do these brushes help me achieve the kind of definition I want in this painting to bring out the chiaroscuro effect?” etc. etc. But our answers and preferences are heavily influenced by our past: what we read, what we listen to, our teachers, etc. Even when we solicit an opinion and ask someone else, they listen (perceive) through their own lenses, and give an opinion based on their experience. Different teachers will give different opinions on the same equipment.

While human beings tend to think in black/white, good/bad dualistic thinking, art is arbitrary. Systems of thinking—mathematics, logic, even some religions and belief systems—have found ways to bring order to a chaotic world. Pyramids, trains, electric cars, nuclear reactors, are all the result of these different systems. But art—music, sculpture, dance, cooking (a delicious blend of art [taste], physics and chemistry), etc.—is subjective.

We have rules for chord sequences, rules to develop a fugue, etc., but the values that lie underneath the rules are subjective and based on preference, not logic. We tell ourselves that a classical trombone should sound like x and not y or z  NOT because x is right and y or z  are wrong, but because x is what history has chosen over the years based on preference and value.

And so, back to rubber bumpers—what do you prefer? Do you notice a difference? If so, what is it? Can you still sound how you want to sound with it on? Why or why not?

…

I didn’t intend for this to be a second lecture/disquisition/rant… I tend to dwell in philosophy and aesthetics.

BTW, I don’t use hand grips either. I use a Get-a-Grip on my horns, and often an ErgoBone on my bass. I’ll experiment with removing my leather pencil holders to get that extra 1%!! :biggrin:

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2023-01-28 9:26 p.m.

You don't have to necessarily objectify the subjective. A double-blind test can still be subjective. In this case, having one person play the instrument, a 2nd person removes/add a rubber tip, and a 3rd player listening should eliminate placebo bias on both the player and listener end. The analysis of that is going to still be subjective. But should be accurate as to which sounds better, free from being influenced by the bias.

ssking2b · by **ssking2b** » 2023-01-29 4:30 p.m.

Several of us in the early 2000s started a thread about exactly this as a joke on the old Trombone-L list. People argued and fought over this in the most ridiculous fashion. The only conclusion reachable from reading peoples reactions and positions on it was…It’s pretty much Dumbo’s crow feather. On or off whatever works for you is OK. It was entertaining to read people’s adamant arguments!

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2023-01-29 5:13 p.m.

I still think we should replace the bumper with bayonet mounts for defense. :twisted: :tongue:

SimmonsTrombone · by **SimmonsTrombone** » 2023-01-30 6:28 a.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]I still think we should replace the bumper with bayonet mounts for defense. :twisted: :tongue:[/quote]
Back in my youth, I played in some night clubs where I could have used that.

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2023-01-30 9:09 a.m.

[quote="Matt K"]You don't have to necessarily objectify the subjective. A double-blind test can still be subjective. In this case, having one person play the instrument, a 2nd person removes/add a rubber tip, and a 3rd player listening should eliminate placebo bias on both the player and listener end. The analysis of that is going to still be subjective. But should be accurate as to which sounds better, free from being influenced by the bias.[/quote]

If you decide to do that, and have lots of time obviously, the gold standard for taste tests is the triangle test, so it might work here.

With the triangle test, you present three items. Two Oreos and one Hydrox, for example, or maybe two Heinekins and one Milwaukees Best. The taster does not have to identify them; he merely has to detect which is different, at a level above chance. Of course you repeat the test multiple times with random orders of the different one.

It is surprising how often people cannot identify the difference between beers, etc.

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2023-01-31 12:49 p.m.

[quote="Matt K"]You don't have to necessarily objectify the subjective. A double-blind test can still be subjective. …

The analysis of that is going to still be subjective. But should be accurate as to which sounds better, free from being influenced by the bias.[/quote]

Yes, that’s what I meant by using the scare quotes.

(Perhaps that should be “scare quotes,” or even “quasi quotes.”)

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2023-01-31 5:45 p.m.

[quote="timothy42b"]<QUOTE author="Matt K" post_id="200670" time="1674959212" user_id="48">
You don't have to necessarily objectify the subjective. A double-blind test can still be subjective. In this case, having one person play the instrument, a 2nd person removes/add a rubber tip, and a 3rd player listening should eliminate placebo bias on both the player and listener end. The analysis of that is going to still be subjective. But should be accurate as to which sounds better, free from being influenced by the bias.[/quote]

If you decide to do that, and have lots of time obviously, the gold standard for taste tests is the triangle test, so it might work here.

With the triangle test, you present three items. Two Oreos and one Hydrox, for example, or maybe two Heinekins and one Milwaukees Best. The taster does not have to identify them; he merely has to detect which is different, at a level above chance. Of course you repeat the test multiple times with random orders of the different one.

It is surprising how often people cannot identify the difference between beers, etc.
</QUOTE>
I prefer more than a triangle… take it out to a full attribute Gage Repeatability study. But almost nothing passes those on borderline cases.

Cheers,

Andy

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2023-01-31 6:10 p.m.

[quote="elmsandr"]<QUOTE author="timothy42b" post_id="200818" time="1675087796" user_id="211">

If you decide to do that, and have lots of time obviously, the gold standard for taste tests is the triangle test, so it might work here.

With the triangle test, you present three items. Two Oreos and one Hydrox, for example, or maybe two Heinekins and one Milwaukees Best. The taster does not have to identify them; he merely has to detect which is different, at a level above chance. Of course you repeat the test multiple times with random orders of the different one.

It is surprising how often people cannot identify the difference between beers, etc.[/quote]
I prefer more than a triangle… take it out to a full attribute Gage Repeatability study. But almost nothing passes those on borderline cases.

Cheers,

Andy
</QUOTE>

This is all well and good, but you are talking about an incredibly expensive experiment for a very small bit of knowledge. Maybe one of our student friends who is also skilled in Statistics could try this in a trombone studio, but to run a true independent test would cost tens of thousands of dollars for the administration and evaluation.

Given that nobody's going to pay this amount of money for such a trivial question, I think it will remain a philosophical exercise, like determining how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2023-02-01 10:44 a.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]... for such a trivial question...[/quote]

Dang, Bruce, you'll need double blind for sure!

Jpl · by **Jpl** » 2023-02-09 8:20 a.m.

Well, what a coincidence to find there is thread about it. I just bought an old king 606. As I was playing with it for the first time, plain and happy with the sound, found out the stopper was missing so i added an o-ring from the stock i had. Rigth there I notice the sound was not as vibrant and that the trombone was not as responsive. Not day and nigth, but just the small difference that keeps you playing if without the bumber! I am not an expert at all, hence the reason for buying a student model, but i can tell the difference on that one. Not sure i would see the same difference on my other trombone though as it has a darker sound from the start, and not as responsive (yahama ysl-356, the one with an F trigger, AND made of red brass). And yes that is hearing it from behind the bell, but, as i am playing for my own pleasure ...that counts! Now, wondering if a small thing like that can make a difference what about the grease vs oil we put on the slide?

Jpl · by **Jpl** » 2023-02-09 8:37 a.m.

Now my next question is how the hell can i remove it as it is deep and hardly accessible. Thx!

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2023-02-09 1:58 p.m.

[quote="Jpl"]Well, what a coincidence to find there is thread about it. I just bought an old king 606. As I was playing with it for the first time, plain and happy with the sound, found out the stopper was missing so i added an o-ring from the stock i had. Rigth there I notice the sound was not as vibrant and that the trombone was not as responsive. Not day and nigth, but just the small difference that keeps you playing if without the bumber! I am not an expert at all, hence the reason for buying a student model, but i can tell the difference on that one. Not sure i would see the same difference on my other trombone though as it has a darker sound from the start, and not as responsive (yahama ysl-356, the one with an F trigger, AND made of red brass). And yes that is hearing it from behind the bell, but, as i am playing for my own pleasure ...that counts! Now, wondering if a small thing like that can make a difference what about the grease vs oil we put on the slide?[/quote]

Are we talking about the same thing? The slide end bumper is a rubber knob on the end of the slide. Usually mounted on a small post.

You are describing something else entirely. What are you concerned about? Maybe a picture to show your problem?

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2023-02-09 3:34 p.m.

[quote="Jpl"]Now my next question is how the hell can i remove it as it is deep and hardly accessible. Thx![/quote]

This thread was about the nipple-like rubber bumper tip at the water-valve end of the slide.

I think the bumper you are having trouble with is the cork barrel bumper at the mouthpiece end of the slide.

Apparently you have inserted an O-ring as a stop-gap, and now cannot remove it. This bumper is easily replaced by a trombone technician with a special tool; the technician would probably use as a replacement an inexpensive special bumper made of cork (though possibly rubber) - not an O-ring. Worth a quick visit to your tech.

whitbey · by **whitbey** » 2023-02-19 10:03 a.m.

At a workshop several years ago talking about how everything can change a horn. So I ended up being the person playing so others could judge if the rubber bumper changed the sound.

After a few tries, the rubber bumper fell under the outdoors deck in the woods lost in the leaves forever.

Decided it sounded better without the bumper.

Put one on when I got home.

BigBadandBass · by **BigBadandBass** » 2023-02-25 6:54 p.m.

Every little variable will do something and change something. Personally I don’t use a bumper, leathers or a pencil holder and the only left hand support I trust is the inbuilt one on my shires.

If we want to go one step further, I regularly clean all the tarnish off the raw brass on my bell because it plays better without it…..

u_20posaunen · by **u_20posaunen** » 2023-07-14 2:10 p.m.

5-6 years ago, I requested ~10 sample packs of various rubber nipple sizes and shapes from a rubber company.

They sent them and I have experimented at length over many sessions in different spaces with the different sizes and shapes of bumpers using several high-end horns of different brands and sizes. These are each horns I played for at least a hundred hours; I was accustomed to their “feel.”

Almost all the different combinations were noticeable to me in immediate back-to-back comparisons, but not always to the same extent. Some horns felt especially sensitive to these changes, including my Thein Universals (tenor and bass, both with Hagmanns). Every bumper on the Theins felt noticeably different in the player feedback & I settled on the same one in several different trials.

On Shires large tenors, having or not having a bumper made a much more noticeable difference than the specific bumper.

On my M&W trombones, on the slides with nickel-silver crooks I find they play best with the stock conn-style rubber bumper. It seems to make them have a more consistent/intuitive response to articulations as the dynamics change. My all-brass M&W slide (notably heavier outer) shows no significant change when changing bumpers, but I prefer the response of that slide without a bumper.

On my Edwards Alessi model (yellow crook), I also preferred it without a bumper. This horn is what started the whole series of experiments, especially since it has a sort of built-in vibrational impedance adjuster…. The more I played that horn, the more I preferred it with no pillars, just for the record.

I found that the superlight Bach LT12 handslide felt/centered differently with the big rubber bumper, but I can’t remember which way I chose to play it.

My Conn 60Hs, with their heavier TIS slides, seem to play well with or without bumpers and I haven’t noticed much difference between bumper sizes. I play them without a bumper, though, and find no noticeable benefits to the bumper (besides keeping the slide still on the floor while adding yamasnot).

I also now have an epic gold-brass Haag with independent progressive Hagmann bass (formerly played in Seattle symphony) that has a relatively lightweight, extra-wide, nickel-silver outer slide with gold brass crook. I find it responds more consistently to varied input with one of 2-3 different bumpers, as opposed to no bumper. I picked the same favorite in multiple tests, but it’s a negligible difference for me. FWIW, I have, by far, the least playing time on that instrument (probably less than 20 hrs), since I only recently got it & have 4 other basses.

I didn’t record myself to try and hear the difference. I feel confident that the Theins would exhibit a slight, but audible change in sound, but I’m not so sure about that for the other horns. I have recorded audible changes to my M&W trombones with different valve caps weights. Changing the mass there significantly changes the horn’s “liveliness” (or, overtone response/brilliance) relative to the dynamic spectrum - adding mass gives the perception of increasing the bottom end (EQ-wise) of the sound and holding off the brilliance/edge until a higher dynamic level.

Some thoughts in conclusion: Everything you change makes SOME difference, though the difference may be negligible. On average, I noticed that slides with more mass seem less affected/changed by the addition or absence of a rubber slide bumper. Those horns usually seem to exhibit a smaller/negligible change when comparing different rubber bumpers.

On average, horns with lightweight slides (and/or more nickel-silver content in the outer slide, especially the crook) tend to exhibit a notable change in feel between using a bumper or not. Sometimes, those horns exhibit a notable change between different bumpers, but that is not a consistent pattern.

Excepting the Thein Universal tenor, all the tested slides with all-yellow brass outer slides (including crook) played/responded most consistently and enjoyably without a rubber bumper installed.

Disclaimer: A change to the inner dimensions of the instrument at any point, but especially as you get closer to the leadpipe and mouthpiece/face, will have a significantly greater influence on the feel and sound of the instrument. The bumper’s influence is quite small in comparison.

Anyway, there it is; Take it or leave it! Play what you sound best on and helps you enjoy making music!

I enjoy tinkering, so this ongoing experiment has been fun for me. But, in my case, it does not take me out of my music-first mentality. These little details should never distract from the end goal of making our best music.

And rubber bumpers certainly aren’t important enough to cause arguments (online or otherwise)!

officermayo · by **officermayo** » 2023-07-14 2:43 p.m.

I'm beginning to think some of y'all have been eating your bumpers.

Blabberbucket · by **Blabberbucket** » 2023-07-14 3:44 p.m.

[quote="officermayo"]I'm beginning to think some of y'all have been eating your bumpers.[/quote]

A healthy part of your balanced practice session!

I found that layering multiple bumpers on my 1666 Sterling Silver Sackbut makes me sound more like J. Alessi when I play Bolero.

tonyycanolli · by **tonyycanolli** » 2024-05-20 8:00 a.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]Has anybody tried a blind test and been right 100%?[/quote]

is this THE Doug Elliot?

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2024-05-20 8:39 a.m.

Of all the threads to resurrect...

OneTon · by **OneTon** » 2024-05-20 8:51 a.m.

There is but one Doug. And Bruce is his Prophet.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2024-05-20 10:12 a.m.

[quote="OneTon"]There is but one Doug. And Bruce is his Prophet.[/quote]

Actually, Dave Wilken is his prophet. I am but an acolyte.

Oslide · by **Oslide** » 2024-05-20 2:21 p.m.

How about the Martin TR-4501 "Urbie Green"? If there is a bumper that's big enough to make a difference, it's this one. And Urbie would have noticed, wouldn't he?

But I've also seen a picture of an example without the rubber, only a small metal guard. Was this a modification based on a deeper understanding?

tonyycanolli · by **tonyycanolli** » 2024-05-20 3:15 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]Of all the threads to resurrect...[/quote]

Lol I was searching for people's opinions on the con 88h's springs at the slide bumper and this was recommended to me

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2024-05-20 5:27 p.m.

[quote="tonyycanolli"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="243396" time="1716208797" user_id="3642">
Of all the threads to resurrect...[/quote]

Lol I was searching for people's opinions on the con 88h's springs at the slide bumper and this was recommended to me
</QUOTE>

Aha! The proximal end of the slide, not the distal (end crook / water valve) end.

I am a fan of the spring bumpers on my 1972 Conn 88H.

I like the ability to tune at the uncompressed spring and still be able to squeeze a little sharper for any flat-in-first-position notes.

ssking2b · by **ssking2b** » 2024-05-24 11:05 a.m.

several of us started an online joke about this 20 years ago on the first trombone list server. Hard to believe this stupid topic is still around!

ssking2b · by **ssking2b** » 2024-05-24 11:06 a.m.

several of us started an online joke about this 20 years ago on the first trombone list server. Hard to believe this stupid topic is still around!

heldenbone · by **heldenbone** » 2024-05-27 1:02 a.m.

[quote="Posaunus"]<QUOTE author="tonyycanolli" post_id="243435" time="1716232531" user_id="17250">

Lol I was searching for people's opinions on the con 88h's springs at the slide bumper and this was recommended to me[/quote]

Aha! The proximal end of the slide, not the distal (end crook / water valve) end.

I am a fan of the spring bumpers on my 1972 Conn 88H.

I like the ability to tune at the uncompressed spring and still be able to squeeze a little sharper for any flat-in-first-position notes.
</QUOTE>

I too appreciate slide springs - King 4BF, King Duo Gravis 6B, retrofitted Getzen 1062 bass bone. The Getzen basses have a bunch of room to play with an extended 1st pos. or you end up with the tuning slide way out.

ssking2b · by **ssking2b** » 2024-05-28 10:52 a.m.

I like the spring bumpers in my 1964 88H. I removed them for a while, but soon discovered that it was advantageous to have them.

OneTon · by **OneTon** » 2024-05-28 11:25 a.m.

[quote="Posaunus"]

Aha! The proximal end of the slide, not the distal (end crook / water valve) end.

I am a fan of the spring bumpers on my 1972 Conn 88H.

I like the ability to tune at the uncompressed spring and still be able to squeeze a little sharper for any flat-in-first-position notes.[/quote]

The trombone personified as patient. Bumper springs serve as:

1) Last chance to tune an uncooperative partial.

2) Preventing pain as the advancing student allows their slide to slam home into first position. (There exists an exercise to eradicate this problem.)

3) Something cool to add panache to the product line.

4) Something a would be inventor could submit a patent application for which if granted, they would add to their curriculum vitae (CV).

musicofnote · by **musicofnote** » 2024-05-28 1:34 p.m.

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Slide end bumper?