Alto trombone bad note
- whitbey
- Posts: 654
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I play a Conn 34H. I have always had trouble with high Db. It is unstable like a balancing a piccolo on top of a frog. I never worried about it much and there are not to many Db's. If I play it in 2nd with the Bb valve it slots fine. If I play it in first against the stop it plays fine there too. But I am against the stop with no where to go if I was flat. I am playing the Schumann, Symphony No.3 and it has a few Db's. Since 3rd position sucks would against the stop be better or trigger 2nd? And any idea why the 3rd position plays so badly? It just wants to fill up to Eb. Any one else with a Conn same thing?
- wwright
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Sep 12, 2018
I don't have an answer for you, but my Shires alto does the same thing for me. I have to really focus my attention on it or, like you say, it wants to flip up or down a partial. I figured it was just me, but it's interesting to hear that someone else has a similar experience.
- AndrewMeronek
- Posts: 1487
- Joined: Mar 30, 2018
I don't have that particular problem on my Shires alto, but I did a fairly extensive mouthpiece search to find one (actually, two) that slot well on it, in term of in-tune partials in general. 12C sizes seem to work best on it, with the Denis Wick Heritage 12C slotting the best and the Wedge 96C (which I play on it) just about as good. Altos are in general more sensitive to this setup than tenors, in my experience.
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
In analogy to that bad Db the corresponding note on a tenor is the bad Ab (bad ass :good: ) Many players have said the high Ab is difficult on third position on a tenor. I do remember I had troubles with the Ab too in high school on a King 3b with f- valve. I thought it to be the valve. I sold that trombone and noticed the Ab was better on the straight 3b that I got instead, but later I learned other players also had troubles with the Ab on different trombones.
/Tom
/Tom
- CalgaryTbone
- Posts: 1460
- Joined: May 10, 2018
I've played a few altos where that note was touchy, and one where it was almost impossible to center. On that horn, it worked great in 5th position, but who wants to play high D flat in 5th? I don't think it's a mouthpiece problem, because it seemed to happen with whatever mouthpiece I used, and only on the D flat - D and C were fine.
Jim Scott
Jim Scott
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
I don't remember playing any alto where that was a good note.
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
Yes, that is a typically unstable partials on all brass instruments.
- BrassedOn
- Posts: 122
- Joined: Aug 23, 2018
I have heard of players cutting their conns and playing slightly long positions. Perhaps in part to have that first position Db viable.
As an also euphonium player, if an alternate works better, do it (for us, tons of alternate fingerings to use around the 5th and 6th partials, which we really rely on for a work like the Planets). IfI have to pick a note out of the air on a Trombone, I’d want to be on a lower partial if possible, like your tight first position solution But I’d also develop that 5th position Db on alto to expand your tool box.
As an also euphonium player, if an alternate works better, do it (for us, tons of alternate fingerings to use around the 5th and 6th partials, which we really rely on for a work like the Planets). IfI have to pick a note out of the air on a Trombone, I’d want to be on a lower partial if possible, like your tight first position solution But I’d also develop that 5th position Db on alto to expand your tool box.
- bcschipper
- Posts: 205
- Joined: Sep 23, 2018
The Db on my Kruspe alto trombone is right in tune and slots well in both 1st and 3rd position. I use a Kruspe alto mouthpiece. (Also the Ab is right in tune and slots very well 1st (and 3rd) position on my Kruspe Weschke tenor.) Some nice old trombones don't have this problem. I am sure Helmut Voigt in Markneukirchen can build you a superb new one without such a problem. It will be also cheaper than Thein, probably between $3000 and 2500. He builds a couple of altos, small, medium, and large bore, all of them excellent. The large bore is the Zeumer model developed for Manfred Zeumer, former principal trombone of Staatskapelle Dresden. I believe the small bore is close to my Kruspe alto. He also has another small bore developed for late Aline Nistad, Oslo Philharmonica.
I always thought that the problem of Ab in 1st position with American trombones come from the fact that the slide is a bit shorter than German trombones. I see why a shorter slide may be better. But I never understood why "American" altos would have a similar problem with the same partial. The alto slide is rather short anyway. Probably I don't understand trombone design.
I always thought that the problem of Ab in 1st position with American trombones come from the fact that the slide is a bit shorter than German trombones. I see why a shorter slide may be better. But I never understood why "American" altos would have a similar problem with the same partial. The alto slide is rather short anyway. Probably I don't understand trombone design.
- Basbasun
- Posts: 496
- Joined: Mar 26, 2018
The classic German trombone was buildt differently from modern western trombones. My Alexander has a perfect Db, on 3rd, the mouthpiece is a Werner Chr. Schmidht Ap 2.
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
I just got the mini-pBone out and tried it.
That whole partial is squirrelly for me. The Db isn't too bad in 5th though.
That whole partial is squirrelly for me. The Db isn't too bad in 5th though.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
I cut my 36H way down in the tuning slide and it solved all the problems I was having.
- bcschipper
- Posts: 205
- Joined: Sep 23, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]I cut my 36H way down in the tuning slide and it solved all the problems I was having.[/quote]
Was the nice position chart in your alto methods book created before or after you cut your tuning slide? I notice the Db in 1st would be pretty flat according to your chart.
I got another Kruspe alto that is built differently from my "daily used" Kruspe alto. The bell is wider and it has a nickel outer slide with gold brass bow. I should measure them side-by-side but I keep them in different locations so that I don't need to carry instruments around. I played it over the holidays again and noticed that the positions are rather close to your position chart and surprisingly the Db is a bad note as well. In contrast, for my daily used Kruspe alto, the Db is just fine, the partials line up much better in every position (i.e., need less adjustments), and the position schema is much easier to adopt when coming from a German tenor (in particular a Kruspe tenor). The comparison is not quite fair though because for my vacation Kruspe alto I use a Werner Christian Schmidt Prof. Bambula AP2 mouthpiece whereas for my daily used Kruspe alto I use an old Ed. Kruspe alto mouthpiece. Anyway, I am surprised how different instruments play even from the same maker. It always takes me a day or two to get used to the instrument.
Was the nice position chart in your alto methods book created before or after you cut your tuning slide? I notice the Db in 1st would be pretty flat according to your chart.
I got another Kruspe alto that is built differently from my "daily used" Kruspe alto. The bell is wider and it has a nickel outer slide with gold brass bow. I should measure them side-by-side but I keep them in different locations so that I don't need to carry instruments around. I played it over the holidays again and noticed that the positions are rather close to your position chart and surprisingly the Db is a bad note as well. In contrast, for my daily used Kruspe alto, the Db is just fine, the partials line up much better in every position (i.e., need less adjustments), and the position schema is much easier to adopt when coming from a German tenor (in particular a Kruspe tenor). The comparison is not quite fair though because for my vacation Kruspe alto I use a Werner Christian Schmidt Prof. Bambula AP2 mouthpiece whereas for my daily used Kruspe alto I use an old Ed. Kruspe alto mouthpiece. Anyway, I am surprised how different instruments play even from the same maker. It always takes me a day or two to get used to the instrument.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="bcschipper"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="71334" time="1542558021" user_id="3642">
I cut my 36H way down in the tuning slide and it solved all the problems I was having.[/quote]
Was the nice position chart in your alto methods book created before or after you cut your tuning slide? I notice the Db in 1st would be pretty flat according to your chart.
I got another Kruspe alto that is built differently from my "daily used" Kruspe alto. The bell is wider and it has a nickel outer slide with gold brass bow. I should measure them side-by-side but I keep them in different locations so that I don't need to carry instruments around. I played it over the holidays again and noticed that the positions are rather close to your position chart and surprisingly the Db is a bad note as well. In contrast, for my daily used Kruspe alto, the Db is just fine, the partials line up much better in every position (i.e., need less adjustments), and the position schema is much easier to adopt when coming from a German tenor (in particular a Kruspe tenor). The comparison is not quite fair though because for my vacation Kruspe alto I use a Werner Christian Schmidt Prof. Bambula AP2 mouthpiece whereas for my daily used Kruspe alto I use an old Ed. Kruspe alto mouthpiece. Anyway, I am surprised how different instruments play even from the same maker. It always takes me a day or two to get used to the instrument.
</QUOTE>
Yes, you got it exactly. I made that chart long before I cut the alto, and when I used to tune Eb (or Bb on tenor) with the handslide completely closed. I actually used to pull the tuning slide out on the alto to tune the Eb, and the was why everything seemed so out of whack.
I cut my 36H way down in the tuning slide and it solved all the problems I was having.[/quote]
Was the nice position chart in your alto methods book created before or after you cut your tuning slide? I notice the Db in 1st would be pretty flat according to your chart.
I got another Kruspe alto that is built differently from my "daily used" Kruspe alto. The bell is wider and it has a nickel outer slide with gold brass bow. I should measure them side-by-side but I keep them in different locations so that I don't need to carry instruments around. I played it over the holidays again and noticed that the positions are rather close to your position chart and surprisingly the Db is a bad note as well. In contrast, for my daily used Kruspe alto, the Db is just fine, the partials line up much better in every position (i.e., need less adjustments), and the position schema is much easier to adopt when coming from a German tenor (in particular a Kruspe tenor). The comparison is not quite fair though because for my vacation Kruspe alto I use a Werner Christian Schmidt Prof. Bambula AP2 mouthpiece whereas for my daily used Kruspe alto I use an old Ed. Kruspe alto mouthpiece. Anyway, I am surprised how different instruments play even from the same maker. It always takes me a day or two to get used to the instrument.
</QUOTE>
Yes, you got it exactly. I made that chart long before I cut the alto, and when I used to tune Eb (or Bb on tenor) with the handslide completely closed. I actually used to pull the tuning slide out on the alto to tune the Eb, and the was why everything seemed so out of whack.