Lacquer Removal

Atherton98 · by **Atherton98** » 2023-02-01 4:55 p.m.

I know the answer is probably on here, and I will be searching in the meantime, but I have a Benge 190F that looks pretty rough. I'm hoping to find a relatively inexpensive way to strip the lacquer on most, if not all, of the instrument. Also, are there any adverse effects of stripping the lacquer? Thank you in advance!

Bonearzt · by **Bonearzt** » 2023-02-01 5:20 p.m.

Benge lacquer can be a real bitch to remove!

Might be better to have someone with experience do it...

Any commercially available stripper probably won't be caustic enough to cut the old cellulose lacquer.

As far as effects?

Some people feel it has no effect on overall sound...

Personally, I think stripping the bell allows it to resonate more freely.

I did that to my '78 4B, similar to the Benge, and it really let the horn sing!!

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2023-02-01 5:55 p.m.

Downside of stripping lacquer? The instrument will oxidize. If you really like it shiny you will have to periodically polish it. You can slow down the oxidation by waxing it after polish. Also, don't put it away with droplets of water on the bell unless you like dark black polka dots that you won't be able to remove.

Best way to strip epoxy lacquer like King uses is with a caustic bath. Note that this will blacken the brass after it finishes stripping the lacquer, so you need to keep an eye on it while it strips. I've heard that Citrustrip (a terpene based material) works but you need to slather it on and wait many hours.

Removing epoxy based lacquers like King/Benge, LustreConn, Yamaha is very difficult.

MBurner · by **MBurner** » 2023-02-02 12:36 a.m.

The old cellulose lacquer is hard- particularly the orange baked kind on some old Conn/King/Benge horns. I’ve had some luck soaking the horn in a hot (and I mean Hot) bath for a bit, then mixing QuickStrip coats and then more hot water. It’s worked before, and worth a shot if you have time.

I prefer no lacquer on most horns. It really frees up the sound and the blow is more open. But that’s me.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2023-02-02 12:47 a.m.

Point of information: The lacquers you mentioned are not cellulose -- they are epoxy. Epoxy is a difficult plastic to dissolve.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2023-02-02 1:28 a.m.

[quote="Atherton98"]I know the answer is probably on here, and I will be searching in the meantime, but I have a Benge 190F that looks pretty rough. I'm hoping to find a relatively inexpensive way to strip the lacquer on most, if not all, of the instrument. Also, are there any adverse effects of stripping the lacquer? Thank you in advance![/quote]

EZ Off oven cleaner, the hardcore version (pro? ultra? Something like that) will take off the King baked lacquer, no problem.

CharlieB · by **CharlieB** » 2023-02-02 10:51 a.m.

Yup. EZ Off can work, especially with a hot soak. The Aircraft Paint Stripper available at auto parts stores or the Internet also works.

The real work is re-polishing the tarnished areas after the lacquer is removed.

Adverse effects ???

Not to the playability or sound ; but unless you relacquer the horn, you'll spend a lifetime dealing with a tarnished horn and stained fingers and shirt collars.

See here: <YOUTUBE id="o_CoPcxx9Wk">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_CoPcxx9Wk</YOUTUBE>

Bonearzt · by **Bonearzt** » 2023-02-02 11:14 p.m.

[quote="CharlieB"]Yup. EZ Off can work, especially with a hot soak. The Aircraft Paint Stripper available at auto parts stores or the Internet also works.

The real work is re-polishing the tarnished areas after the lacquer is removed.

Adverse effects ???

Not to the playability or sound ; but unless you relacquer the horn, you'll spend a lifetime dealing with a tarnished horn and stained fingers and shirt collars.

See here: <YOUTUBE id="o_CoPcxx9Wk">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_CoPcxx9Wk</YOUTUBE>[/quote]

Unfortunately, the formula for the Aircraft Remover stripper has been watered down and now sucks ass!

CharlieB · by **CharlieB** » 2023-02-03 1:29 p.m.

Right you are.

The Aircraft Stripper has been reformulated to remove the key ingredient; methylene chloride.

This, due to a new EPA regulation limiting the use of methylene chloride.

Other strippers containing methylene chloride are still available Online

Here's the fuzzy government rundown.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.epa.gov/assessing-and-manag ... -paint-and">https://www.epa.gov/assessing-and-managing-chemicals-under-tsca/final-rule-regulation-methylene-chloride-paint-and</LINK_TEXT>

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2023-02-03 6:30 p.m.

The best way to use methylene chloride (and many chloro-fluorocarbons (Freons)) is in the condensation area of a pot still. The vapors condense on the workpiece and dissolve off the contaminant. The dirty solvent goes back into the sump to create new vapors for the next part. A properly designed condensing area prevents the solvent from escaping into the atmosphere. These machines are usually called Vapor Degreasers.

Atherton98 · by **Atherton98** » 2023-02-08 4:37 p.m.

Thank you all for the help! My biggest concern is that I am trying to sell this trombone so I am debating whether it will increase desire for the instrument. I would keep it, but I am happy with my Conn 88HCL and haven't needed it for a while.

CharlieB · by **CharlieB** » 2023-02-08 9:29 p.m.

[quote="Atherton98"]I am trying to sell this trombone so I am debating whether it will increase desire for the instrument. I[/quote]

Aha !

New information.

The demand for bare brass trombones is very limited

brassmedic · by **brassmedic** » 2023-02-09 4:46 a.m.

"I wish I had a trombone where the seller had stripped off the lacquer by himself", said noone ever.

ithinknot · by **ithinknot** » 2023-02-09 6:22 a.m.

[quote="brassmedic"]"I wish I had a trombone where the seller had stripped off the lacquer by himself", said noone ever.[/quote]

A this, B if the horn is already slightly rough then leaving the lacquer on makes it clear that nothing drastic has been done. Maybe it doesn't look great, but at least it proves that there aren't huge crease lines running through the remaining lacquer. Once it's off, I'm sure I'm not the only one who wonders whether there has been all manner of lousy dent work and idiot-grade sanding in the instrument's past...

Briande · by **Briande** » 2023-02-09 6:56 a.m.

I agree with Burgerbob. Followed his advice and uses EZ Off (heavy duty yellow can). Lacquer came right off my old king trombone. Spray on. Let it sit a bit then hose it off. Then polish up.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2023-02-09 7:52 a.m.

If you are looking to sell the instrument, leave the lacquer as is. Stripping it won't increase its value, and if you pay for a relacquer job, you will never recoup what you paid in increased value. If the buyer wants a relacquer, let the buyer pay for the relacquer.

Atherton98 · by **Atherton98** » 2023-02-17 5:29 p.m.

Glad I haven't attempted the removal yet! Thank you again for the feedback. I assumed that the cosmetic appearance would potentially increase the value, but then again this is the first time I've tried to sell one of my trombones.

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2023-02-17 10:31 p.m.

Brake fluid does a heck of a job on car paint if you spill some. It may therefore do even better on lacquer.

I haven't tried it, as I can't tell any sound difference with or without, or even whether I have a rubber bumper.

baBposaune · by **baBposaune** » 2023-03-01 10:35 a.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="Atherton98" post_id="201039" time="1675288559" user_id="16241">
I know the answer is probably on here, and I will be searching in the meantime, but I have a Benge 190F that looks pretty rough. I'm hoping to find a relatively inexpensive way to strip the lacquer on most, if not all, of the instrument. Also, are there any adverse effects of stripping the lacquer? Thank you in advance![/quote]

EZ Off oven cleaner, the hardcore version (pro? ultra? Something like that) will take off the King baked lacquer, no problem.
</QUOTE>

Yup. "Professional" or "Pro commercial use" EZ Off is what it's labeled. I've never tried this method but will do next time I need to strip a bell.

mlshermancpa · by **mlshermancpa** » 2023-04-09 1:13 p.m.

I've always been afraid to use commerical metal shops out of fear they might damage the components and have stripped older Bachs, Kings. Olds and a French Selmer. Have never done a horn with an f-attachment but a straight horn is not that hard...just takes time and elbow grease. I use a cheap plastic trough or window box and a good paint stripper like Zip Strip. After several days of re-application with a paint brush I can get a lot of the lacquer off with a sponge and tooth brush. After that it's just a matter of removing small tough spots and I use Mother's mag wheel polish.

I really don't like patina. So after the horn is stripped it's just a matter of keeping up with the tarnish. Some of my horns can go months without tarnishing. Others may start to tarnish in a few weeks. If you wipe down the horn after playing and keep up with tarnish it only takes minutes to clean up the horn.

Some people say that periodic polishing removes too much metal. If you use a light metal polish I don't think that is an issue. I'm going on 75 and convinced these horns will outlive me and still have a great sound.

hornbuilder · by **hornbuilder** » 2023-04-09 6:11 p.m.

If you do decide to strip the lacquer before trying to sell, DO NOT think "I will give this a cool scratch finish". Instant price/value drop!!

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2023-04-09 6:46 p.m.

[quote="hornbuilder"]If you do decide to strip the lacquer before trying to sell, DO NOT think "I will give this a cool scratch finish". Instant price/value drop!![/quote]

:clever:

And no going back from that, either.

dlbucko · by **dlbucko** » 2023-05-29 8:56 p.m.

I got all the lacquer off my King 3B pretty effectively with oven cleaner and elbow-grease, though getting into the nooks and crannies was a bit of a pain. I didn't want to use anything like a wire brush, because I didn't want to scratch into the brass - a couple of people have mentioned here that's not a great scene, tempting though it might be to give it a try.

In the end I found that a brush with very stiff plastic bristles that is normally used to clean the group-head on a commercial espresso machine was a great tool for dislodging the stubborn bits in the corners without hurting the brass itself.

Lankythedanky · by **Lankythedanky** » 2023-06-12 7:14 p.m.

I've just gotten my hands on an old Yamaha horn I want to use for jazz. The lacquer is in really bad shape and I'm pretty sure it's pitting (not positive I've never seen that happen before). Is removing the lacquer a feasible way to stop that? Is that something an average repair tech would be willing to do?

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