Did we always get "the hand"?
- Bone2Collins
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Apr 28, 2018
Hey folks, I'm not sure if this topic is out there but...
Were trombonists before the "modern trombone" (let's say before 1900s) always given "the hand" for playing too loud? Or is this stereotype of us a new condition in the symphony orchestra?
I'm curious in regard to the development of the instrument (physically, the hardware) and the people playing them (their minds and motives). How and why we have arrived at this modern sound of the trombone (in the orchestra)?
We all know that famous video of Bran Hecht (and section) playing excerpts from Shostakovich 5 on youtube. If you don't know it, check it out. Was this "style" always the case throughout history?
I find myself asking "Would Mozart like how the Kyrie sounds on my Shires Bass?"....
Thoughts and any resources for further research?
Were trombonists before the "modern trombone" (let's say before 1900s) always given "the hand" for playing too loud? Or is this stereotype of us a new condition in the symphony orchestra?
I'm curious in regard to the development of the instrument (physically, the hardware) and the people playing them (their minds and motives). How and why we have arrived at this modern sound of the trombone (in the orchestra)?
We all know that famous video of Bran Hecht (and section) playing excerpts from Shostakovich 5 on youtube. If you don't know it, check it out. Was this "style" always the case throughout history?
I find myself asking "Would Mozart like how the Kyrie sounds on my Shires Bass?"....
Thoughts and any resources for further research?
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
No, trombonists were not always given the hand.
I don't think many full time trombonists sitting day in and day out in big orchestras are either, outside of initial rehearsals.
I don't think many full time trombonists sitting day in and day out in big orchestras are either, outside of initial rehearsals.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
You mean this video?
<YOUTUBE id="l-pvkBZqk3Q">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-pvkBZqk3Q</YOUTUBE>
I think it changes over time, and depends on location and which group you are talking about. In the northeast, in the 80's and 90s, I played as loud as I felt the situation called for, and rarely got the hand. Where I am now (mid atlantic, in kind of a classical cultural backwater), if I play over mf, there are complaints.
<YOUTUBE id="l-pvkBZqk3Q">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-pvkBZqk3Q</YOUTUBE>
I think it changes over time, and depends on location and which group you are talking about. In the northeast, in the 80's and 90s, I played as loud as I felt the situation called for, and rarely got the hand. Where I am now (mid atlantic, in kind of a classical cultural backwater), if I play over mf, there are complaints.
- whitbey
- Posts: 654
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Symphony. I get asking for more more often then less. Seems like less is everyone, not just me.
Concert band. Too many never play soft enough or loud enough. So yes it happens.
Small bore cuts and large bore is fuller sounding in my book. So a few generations back probably had the same as we do now. Just not as good of horns. I imagine most of the other instruments were not as good back then too.
I know I can play softer then anyone. It's just that no one ever hears me.
Concert band. Too many never play soft enough or loud enough. So yes it happens.
Small bore cuts and large bore is fuller sounding in my book. So a few generations back probably had the same as we do now. Just not as good of horns. I imagine most of the other instruments were not as good back then too.
I know I can play softer then anyone. It's just that no one ever hears me.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="whitbey"]I know I can play softer then anyone. It's just that no one ever hears me.[/quote]
bold. World's greatest
bold. World's greatest
- Pre59
- Posts: 372
- Joined: May 12, 2018
[quote="whitbey"]
Just not as good of horns. I imagine most of the other instruments were not as good back then too.
[/quote]
Oh really? That's a comment and a half!
Just not as good of horns. I imagine most of the other instruments were not as good back then too.
[/quote]
Oh really? That's a comment and a half!
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
[quote="Bone2Collins"]
Were trombonists before the "modern trombone" (let's say before 1900s) always given "the hand" for playing too loud? Or is this stereotype of us a new condition in the symphony orchestra?
[/quote]
No, and yes. Yes, and no.
Seriously, though, there are many variables, among them: the music director, the number of orchestra/band members, the venue, and the ability of the other orchestra members (not just the trombones) to play loud. When all else fails, follow the person with the stick. Even when they are wrong, they’re right.
Opinion: I hear nothing out of place with Brian Hecht’s playing in the STS video. It’s loud, yes. More importantly, he plays with a beautiful sound with lots of body and sizzle, he has a consistent in tone and volume with consistent fronts to the notes, and it’s marked (IIRC) ffff.
Remember also that STS, ITA Festivals, and other similar gatherings are places where low brass players get to play pieces in the manner they should be played, as dictated by the select opinions of the orchestral cognoscenti, the <B>true </B>leaders of the orchestra. <span class="emoji" title=":wink:">😉</span>
Were trombonists before the "modern trombone" (let's say before 1900s) always given "the hand" for playing too loud? Or is this stereotype of us a new condition in the symphony orchestra?
[/quote]
No, and yes. Yes, and no.
Seriously, though, there are many variables, among them: the music director, the number of orchestra/band members, the venue, and the ability of the other orchestra members (not just the trombones) to play loud. When all else fails, follow the person with the stick. Even when they are wrong, they’re right.
Opinion: I hear nothing out of place with Brian Hecht’s playing in the STS video. It’s loud, yes. More importantly, he plays with a beautiful sound with lots of body and sizzle, he has a consistent in tone and volume with consistent fronts to the notes, and it’s marked (IIRC) ffff.
Remember also that STS, ITA Festivals, and other similar gatherings are places where low brass players get to play pieces in the manner they should be played, as dictated by the select opinions of the orchestral cognoscenti, the <B>true </B>leaders of the orchestra. <span class="emoji" title=":wink:">😉</span>
- VJOFan
- Posts: 529
- Joined: Apr 06, 2018
When I played in Mozart's orchestra in Leipzig....
You'd have to find some contemporary journals, diaries or letters to get a real answer to your question,
Certainly by 1900 trombones had a reputation for loud, "Don't look at the trombones. It only encourages them." Richard Strauss.
But for my own experience, once I understood the relative importance of the notes I was playing, I stopped getting the hand.
You'd have to find some contemporary journals, diaries or letters to get a real answer to your question,
Certainly by 1900 trombones had a reputation for loud, "Don't look at the trombones. It only encourages them." Richard Strauss.
But for my own experience, once I understood the relative importance of the notes I was playing, I stopped getting the hand.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I suspect the first "hand" came about at the same time as the first note played by a trombone in a conducted ensemble.