Would be good to get any thoughts on a bass trombone for sale in my local music store.

It is an older Antoine Courtois Prestige Orchestra 500R

10.5 inch bell

Has anyone on here had any experience with one of these?

Heavy.

Yep, heavy is the word

Is that the one that has the F valve after the Gb valve, so the wrap sticks out really far?

[quote="tbonesullivan"]Is that the one that has the F valve after the Gb valve, so the wrap sticks out really far?[/quote]

No. Typical Hagmann setup

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="tbonesullivan" post_id="203007" time="1677126283" user_id="7063">
Is that the one that has the F valve after the Gb valve, so the wrap sticks out really far?[/quote]

No. Typical Hagmann setup
</QUOTE>

Hmmm.. this is what I'm finding for the 500R, the first one has the model / name engraved on the bell:

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.musicalinstrumentcity.com/p ... -ser30441/">https://www.musicalinstrumentcity.com/product/antoine-courtois-double-rotor-bass-trombone-ser30441/</LINK_TEXT>

<LINK_TEXT text="https://emuseum.nmmusd.org/objects/1768 ... alve-in-gf">https://emuseum.nmmusd.org/objects/17686/bass-trombone-bflat-first-valve-in-f-second-valve-in-gf</LINK_TEXT>

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.promenademusic.co.uk/Antoin ... s-Trombone">https://www.promenademusic.co.uk/Antoine-Courtois-Prestige-Orchestra-500R-Bass-Trombone</LINK_TEXT>

[quote="tbonesullivan"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="203008" time="1677126583" user_id="3131">

No. Typical Hagmann setup[/quote]

Hmmm.. this is what I'm finding for the 500R, the first one has the model / name engraved on the bell:

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.musicalinstrumentcity.com/p ... -ser30441/">https://www.musicalinstrumentcity.com/product/antoine-courtois-double-rotor-bass-trombone-ser30441/</LINK_TEXT>

<LINK_TEXT text="https://emuseum.nmmusd.org/objects/1768 ... alve-in-gf">https://emuseum.nmmusd.org/objects/17686/bass-trombone-bflat-first-valve-in-f-second-valve-in-gf</LINK_TEXT>

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.promenademusic.co.uk/Antoin ... s-Trombone">https://www.promenademusic.co.uk/Antoine-Courtois-Prestige-Orchestra-500R-Bass-Trombone</LINK_TEXT>
</QUOTE>

You might be right. Never seen one of those

No I've not seen that model before. As with Aiden I have only ever seen the ones with Hagmann valves on. They looked almost identical to the Besson model that was going strong when Courtois bought Besson out. Besson then stopped making trombones and left the model line up to Courtois. In fact the model shown in these illustrations looks a littl like the early Besson Sovereigns ironically. I also think the models I know with Hagmanns all have 91/2" bells but I might be wrong. I have two colleagues who have Hagmann Courtois bass trombones I've never played them and cant pass an opinion as to them being heavy or indeed how well they play but both of the said collegues love their hornm and say they are the best they have had (and neither are youngsters!). I dont own and have never played a courtois other than at trade stands but they are quality horns, well made and they have a good following amongst some players. None of which probably helps you make your mind up - sorry... Doug

I saw one of those recently on the Bass Trombone facebook group as well. I thought it was a custom horn or something for some one who wanted a Gb or G thumb trigger, but the linkage for the thumb actually goes to the second valve. Definitely an odd beast.

The AC500 seems to be the dual Hagmann valve setup with the big piece of metal inside the tuning slide.

Is it a bass trombone or a slide euphonium? Now, this is a question that I have wondered about for a long time: why would anyone want a bell that big on a trombone?

[quote="Trombonjon"]Is it a bass trombone or a slide euphonium? Now, this is a question that I have wondered about for a long time: why would anyone want a bell that big on a trombone?[/quote]

What, 10.5"? Sometimes they sound great. I have a 10" that sounds great too. Judge an instrument by how it actually sounds, not by the specs.

Ok, managed to borrow it for a few days.

Pics below

[quote="Arrawarra"]Ok, managed to borrow it for a few days.

Pics below[/quote] Sweet! Let us know what you think of it. The valve arrangement on those is interesting. I wonder if they wanted to have more parity between the feel of the thumb and paddle. Looks like a rose brass bell with a scratch finish that was lacquered.

I am amazed at the variations in the Courtois bass trombones. It's almost as if there are no 2 that are alike.

Here is part of my Courtois Opera 500 with a Shires bell transplant (I wasn't a fan of the 10 1/2" bell) which I like a lot, in part because it is very well balanced and the triggers are in a comfortable place for my hand.

If I may chime in on this topic, the 500 was one of the first bass trombones I got to play with the Courtois name. I already had reservations about a 10.5 in bell from my previous experience with another brand that was the slide baritone, and very inefficient- starting a note was like kicking a harley in gear. Anyway the 500 here played better than than I thought it would. From the period of around maybe 1996 to 2004, Courtois was part of JA Musik (Gerhard Meinl aka Meinl Weston, B&S, and were funded my Triumph Adler. It was in this time that Enrique Crespo was responsible for horn design. Courtois was moving from classical French design to designs more suitable for players from the west (us) and Michel Becquet was a part of that movement. The were using S wraps back then as we see a resurgence in that wrap style in the market today. In 2005, Besson and Buffet were part of a conglomerate called the music group which disbanded and left buffet (and besson) without distribution in the US. The president of buffet (paul barronat) decided he didn't want to be controlled by a conglomerate, so he set out to find a financial suitor in europe. At the same time Besson england abruptly closed its doors and with new backing, paul decided to buy the besson name and also the courtois factory so they had a way to build brass and form a group of european manufacturers. For brass it was decided to produce the best attributes of each brand; courtois to focus on trombone and flugelhorn, although they still made trumpets and cornets; besson to focus on the euphonium and brass band, and by july of 2006, an agreement was made with gerhard to build the next generation of besson. Towards the later years of english besson, the company rested on its laurels and production, quality control, and customer service slipped forcing the doors to close in the edgeware factory. The old besson tooling was worn out, which was purchased by York for their short stint in the market. Paul was smart to get rid of the problems and there was a tremendous undertaking to buy new tooling and bring twenty six models of besson new and improved back to the marketplace in just two years! By 2012 the courtois factory (which was really a workshop) had also outlived its capacity to produce in numbers and production was moved to the B&S actory in germany. The Courtois factory in France was a wonderful place and actually the second factory in its history, the first in Paris dating back to 1803. Back on topic, yes what people see most with courtois basses are the hagman’s, incidentally courtois was the first company to partner with rene hagmann. Unfortunately because of marketing (or lack of) the horn that replaced the standard rotor bass became the ac502- and there are many out there in the market-an excellent independent standard rotor horn that could be had relatively cheap compared to thayers, hagmanns, etc. with a 9.5 inch bell. A great horn for doublers or school systems looking for a cost effective bass that could stand up to the rigors of school band programs. The 500 became the first bass with hagmans and has the “placque resonator” in the main tuning slide, which unfortunately fell out of grace due to weight but had great core. Those specimens are around too and that would be the horn I would take as an upgrade to my present bass (elkhart 62). So, sorry to being winded but beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I see that this 500 orchestra model is now sold. I would think the new owner has found something unique in the world of bass trombones. One last thought and hopefully someone will chime in about the 10.5 inch bell being preferable in the pit of ballet orchestras- has anyone heard that discussion?

I have the 501R model. It's a nice horn. Small single trigger Bass, straight .562 slide, 9.5 inch rose bell. Not quite strong enough for big symphonic works, but great for chamber or period works, like the Requiem, or a mass, Beethoven, etc. Actually plays beautifully, and sounds great, for a smaller horn.

I am usually a tenor player. But i found I needed something fast to cover some bass work and it was available to rent from a friends shop, so I played it for a few minutes, liked the sound and feel, liked the size, and so I took it. Played it in several groups for a few years, including a swing band, and eventually my buddy gave me credit for the long term rental and I bought it for a nominal fee.

Though it lacks the true power and edge of a large bass bone, I am still very glad to own it. It's a delight to play. Sounds and plays as beautiful as it looks.

To continue on timbone's story, the Courtois factory in Amboise (France) is still under property of the Gaudet family, which owned the Courtois brand before selling it to B&S.

The factory is still opened and they are manufacturing brass parts for the vine-growing industry.

I've visited it and they still have parts for really old instruments they produced.

For a few years now they are also producing parts for trombones, but also a few trombones.

They started with bass trombones (based on the 502), I own one of them (#008). A friend of mine is also owning one (#006).

I think they are also doing a tenor right now for a local pro.

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100064157971984 GAUDET France. I used to work with Stephane and JC- glad to see they are still working at the shop! Meanwhile- to be clear, Courtois did not "sell" to B&S; the bean counters at Buffet which owned Besson and Courtois (none of which are there anymore) decided to move production to B&S basically for more output. I miss the French factory and their horns- if you have one keep it! The first trombone I played was a 10.5 bell and I was already thinking what a dog it will be (based on past 10.5 experience but it was not. The AC502 bass is another that runs under the radar with most. It is an excellent dual standard rotor suitable for doubler's or school systems that need a solid horn. I will also note that those earlier models, the bells were heavy and the slides were not- opposite of what I was thinking based on the Conn TIS horns.

I've been using a 500R for the last 10 years. It is the one with the standard valves inverted, F rotor above the Gb. Yes it is huge and will take all the air I can give it (and then some more) really big flare right at the end of the bell despite only being a 9.5".

Looking to upgrade at the moment if anyone is looking for one of these!

[quote="Garoissimo"]I have the 501R model. It's a nice horn. Small single trigger Bass, straight .562 slide, 9.5 inch rose bell. Not quite strong enough for big symphonic works, but great for chamber or period works, like the Requiem, or a mass, Beethoven, etc. Actually plays beautifully, and sounds great, for a smaller horn.

I am usually a tenor player. But i found I needed something fast to cover some bass work and it was available to rent from a friends shop, so I played it for a few minutes, liked the sound and feel, liked the size, and so I took it. Played it in several groups for a few years, including a swing band, and eventually my buddy gave me credit for the long term rental and I bought it for a nominal fee.

Though it lacks the true power and edge of a large bass bone, I am still very glad to own it. It's a delight to play. Sounds and plays as beautiful as it looks.[/quote]

I also have one of these single valve AC501R models. A lovely instrument.

I have a Courtois 500 with Haqgmann valves and a 9.5 inch bell. It is a wonderful trombone. It belonged to my good friend the late Jeremy Kempton. I went with him when he compared it to a Greenhoe Bass Trombone (i can't remember the specific model) and we both agreed that Courtois was the superior trombone. I had the plate on the tuning slide removed in an effort to lighten the instrument, but I should have left it there as the trombone is front heavy. It weighs about one pound more than my Conn 83H. I can use it in an orchestral setting, as the trombones typically don't play that much. I wouldn't want to play it with a concert band.I may try one of the hand braces to see if that helps (I don't like the ergobone). Maybe I can strengthen my shoulders so it will become less of a burden.