Left Hand holding issues
- psybersonic
- Posts: 29
- Joined: Jan 29, 2022
After a gap of 30 years I've ended up with a bass trombone in my hands it's Yamaha YBL 613. Band instrument and plays fine, just me that's rusty. Used it last week and the day after found that my thumb joint aches maybe from pushing against the side of the trigger to help keep the instrument in the correct position.
I have a 3b Bb/F and the trigger on this still allows me to cradle the bell stay between by thumb and index finger. I've done a bit of googling and it appears that all large bore trombones are designed to stop this happening.
Last time I played bass for any time it was a Holton TR181 which displays the same, to me, design flaw but I was only 45 then and muscle goes with age.
I say design flaw because there seems to be a flood of after market gizmos and gadgets to help with my kind of issue.
The old King's 4B, 5B and Duo Gravis weren't like this (just had a look on the HN White web site). The latest 4B 2104 is like the Yamaha and Holton but the new 3b Bb/f are still the original design.
I don't really need a double trigger bass and at the level I'm playing now a .547 would be adequate. However I've looked at just about every current trombone manufacturer and all their offerings seem to have the same irritating design.
Is it me? Have I missed something?
I have a 3b Bb/F and the trigger on this still allows me to cradle the bell stay between by thumb and index finger. I've done a bit of googling and it appears that all large bore trombones are designed to stop this happening.
Last time I played bass for any time it was a Holton TR181 which displays the same, to me, design flaw but I was only 45 then and muscle goes with age.
I say design flaw because there seems to be a flood of after market gizmos and gadgets to help with my kind of issue.
The old King's 4B, 5B and Duo Gravis weren't like this (just had a look on the HN White web site). The latest 4B 2104 is like the Yamaha and Holton but the new 3b Bb/f are still the original design.
I don't really need a double trigger bass and at the level I'm playing now a .547 would be adequate. However I've looked at just about every current trombone manufacturer and all their offerings seem to have the same irritating design.
Is it me? Have I missed something?
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
I use a Leather Specialties strap on my 613, if you do want an aftermarket gizmo that will fit.
As for the bell-brace-under-thumb horns like the 3B/F- I use a Neotech on that too. Personally, the bell brace doesn't help me much and is in the wrong spot on many of those Kings to be truly ergonomic for everyone.
I think most manufacturers have realized that and just leave the horn open to the use of grip aids.
K&H has done much on their line to make them easier for people to hold, and guess what? I can't use them at all, nothing is in the right place for me.
As for the bell-brace-under-thumb horns like the 3B/F- I use a Neotech on that too. Personally, the bell brace doesn't help me much and is in the wrong spot on many of those Kings to be truly ergonomic for everyone.
I think most manufacturers have realized that and just leave the horn open to the use of grip aids.
K&H has done much on their line to make them easier for people to hold, and guess what? I can't use them at all, nothing is in the right place for me.
- etbone
- Posts: 117
- Joined: Feb 13, 2019
I have used this, <LINK_TEXT text="https://www.sheridanbrass.com/store/get ... mVtg-fWd00">https://www.sheridanbrass.com/store/get-a-grip-dmVtg-fWd00</LINK_TEXT>
Works really well. Put the weight of the horn, on back of your hand.
Works really well. Put the weight of the horn, on back of your hand.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="etbone"]I have used this, <LINK_TEXT text="https://www.sheridanbrass.com/store/get ... mVtg-fWd00">https://www.sheridanbrass.com/store/get-a-grip-dmVtg-fWd00</LINK_TEXT>
Works really well. Put the weight of the horn, on back of your hand.[/quote]
Get a grip doesn't work with the 613.
Works really well. Put the weight of the horn, on back of your hand.[/quote]
Get a grip doesn't work with the 613.
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
- GabrielRice
- Posts: 1496
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Another strap user here. I prefer the [url=https://www.hickeys.com/music/brass/trombone/accessories/trombone_straps_and_supports/products/sku055470-leather-specialtiesbass-trombone-hand-straplarge.php]Leather Specialties one to the Yamaha one, but I think they are unavailable right at the moment. I'm still waiting for a couple of new ones on order from Hickey's, anyway.
- baileyman
- Posts: 1169
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
It's possible you may not be using only the effort necessary but also addition effort in useless tension. There is a most relaxed way to hold the horn that may take time to find, just as there is a most relaxed way to play high and low and in between, too. It may be that the most relaxed way will still be too hard. A strap may offer a shortcut to relaxation.
- etbone
- Posts: 117
- Joined: Feb 13, 2019
[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="etbone" post_id="203051" time="1677170464" user_id="4632">
I have used this, <LINK_TEXT text="https://www.sheridanbrass.com/store/get ... mVtg-fWd00">https://www.sheridanbrass.com/store/get-a-grip-dmVtg-fWd00</LINK_TEXT>
Works really well. Put the weight of the horn, on back of your hand.[/quote]
Get a grip doesn't work with the 613.
</QUOTE>
Oops, you're correct. Had to find a picture.
I'm 67. A couple of years ago, I developed problems...holding the horn.
You may want, to consider, physical therapy, also. It really helped, me.
I have used this, <LINK_TEXT text="https://www.sheridanbrass.com/store/get ... mVtg-fWd00">https://www.sheridanbrass.com/store/get-a-grip-dmVtg-fWd00</LINK_TEXT>
Works really well. Put the weight of the horn, on back of your hand.[/quote]
Get a grip doesn't work with the 613.
</QUOTE>
Oops, you're correct. Had to find a picture.
I'm 67. A couple of years ago, I developed problems...holding the horn.
You may want, to consider, physical therapy, also. It really helped, me.
- sf105
- Posts: 433
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
also consider an ergobone, maybe not all the time but it helps. And, for some reason, improves my tone.
- psybersonic
- Posts: 29
- Joined: Jan 29, 2022
Update . Got a Calderpip support and it works very well . Still looking for a King 5b or bigger. Not that common in UK .
- whitbey
- Posts: 654
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I occasionally use an altered cymbal stand that has a round top with a padded cover. Very adjustable. The weight of the horn being supported by the elbow takes the tension off the hand. I also have an adams brace that rests on the back of the hand.
The combination still lets me move and even go off the stand when required. Completely solved the tension of holding a horn for me.
I have nerve that was damaged in a surgery. I am a big guy with lots of strength. My problem was too much force against my face when I had to hold the horn up. Now there is hardly any weight to hold and I do not use the force. Cuts the tension and makes things easy.
Too see if it helps, try resting your elbow on the top of a chair back while playing.
The combination still lets me move and even go off the stand when required. Completely solved the tension of holding a horn for me.
I have nerve that was damaged in a surgery. I am a big guy with lots of strength. My problem was too much force against my face when I had to hold the horn up. Now there is hardly any weight to hold and I do not use the force. Cuts the tension and makes things easy.
Too see if it helps, try resting your elbow on the top of a chair back while playing.
- dbwhitaker
- Posts: 196
- Joined: May 16, 2019
[quote="whitbey"]... I also have an adams brace that rests on the back of the hand.[/quote]
What is an adams brace? A Google search didn't answer the question.
I have severe nerve damage in my left hand and the Rath hand brace works best for me among the many things I have tried. I also wear a thick fingerless glove on my left hand because it helps distribute the pressure of the Rath across the back of my hand.
What is an adams brace? A Google search didn't answer the question.
I have severe nerve damage in my left hand and the Rath hand brace works best for me among the many things I have tried. I also wear a thick fingerless glove on my left hand because it helps distribute the pressure of the Rath across the back of my hand.
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
[quote="dbwhitaker"]What is an adams brace? A Google search didn't answer the question.[/quote]
<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.adams-music.com/en/special- ... bone_adams">https://www.adams-music.com/en/special-supports-stands/support_trombone_adams</LINK_TEXT>
<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.adams-music.com/en/special- ... bone_adams">https://www.adams-music.com/en/special-supports-stands/support_trombone_adams</LINK_TEXT>
- Macbone1
- Posts: 501
- Joined: Oct 01, 2019
[quote="psybersonic"]I have a 3b Bb/F and the trigger on this still allows me to cradle the bell stay between by thumb and index finger. I've done a bit of googling and it appears that all large bore trombones are designed to stop this happening.
Last time I played bass for any time it was a Holton TR181 which displays the same, to me, design flaw but I was only 45 then and muscle goes with age.
I say design flaw because there seems to be a flood of after market gizmos and gadgets to help with my kind of issue.....their offerings seem to have the same irritating design. Is it me? Have I missed something?[/quote]
The aftermarket gizmos (yes there are a lot) came out because some players on two valve basses were having real issues with pain, bursitis and inflamed joints. Then they reached out to the tenor trb market.
I tend to believe the Conn 88H was the original inspiration to stop incorporating the bell brace in the left-hand grip. A sad day in trombone history. Decades ago, new 88s used to come with a pamphlet by Thomas Beversdorf in the case. Dr B explained how to use the F drop, and how the thumb trigger is placed so "the bell brace won't interfere with the action of the thumb". Forget about supporting the weight of the horn I guess. All hogwash back then, still hogwash today.
Last time I played bass for any time it was a Holton TR181 which displays the same, to me, design flaw but I was only 45 then and muscle goes with age.
I say design flaw because there seems to be a flood of after market gizmos and gadgets to help with my kind of issue.....their offerings seem to have the same irritating design. Is it me? Have I missed something?[/quote]
The aftermarket gizmos (yes there are a lot) came out because some players on two valve basses were having real issues with pain, bursitis and inflamed joints. Then they reached out to the tenor trb market.
I tend to believe the Conn 88H was the original inspiration to stop incorporating the bell brace in the left-hand grip. A sad day in trombone history. Decades ago, new 88s used to come with a pamphlet by Thomas Beversdorf in the case. Dr B explained how to use the F drop, and how the thumb trigger is placed so "the bell brace won't interfere with the action of the thumb". Forget about supporting the weight of the horn I guess. All hogwash back then, still hogwash today.
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
[quote="Macbone1"]I tend to believe the Conn 88H was the original inspiration to stop incorporating the bell brace in the left-hand grip. A sad day in trombone history.[/quote]
Goes back a lot further than that. Sackbuts, German trombones with and without valve... bell brace is miles away.
It's great if a given under-thumb brace works for you (my TR159 is super comfortable for me) but it's a lot more of a problem than adjusting a grip aid if it doesn't.
Goes back a lot further than that. Sackbuts, German trombones with and without valve... bell brace is miles away.
It's great if a given under-thumb brace works for you (my TR159 is super comfortable for me) but it's a lot more of a problem than adjusting a grip aid if it doesn't.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="Macbone1"]Dr B explained how to use the F drop, and how the thumb trigger is placed so "the bell brace won't interfere with the action of the thumb". Forget about supporting the weight of the horn I guess. All hogwash back then, still hogwash today.[/quote]
And I'm glad. I can't hold an 8H comfortably, I can't imagine an 88 with the valve behind the brace!
And I'm glad. I can't hold an 8H comfortably, I can't imagine an 88 with the valve behind the brace!
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Macbone1"]I tend to believe the Conn 88H was the original inspiration to stop incorporating the bell brace in the left-hand grip.[/quote]
Looking through images over at The Conn Loyalist, it seems that Conn transitioned straight from "string and thong" to a "thumb-under-brace" system, probably sometime around 1930 or so. On those early string and thong horns, the valve is very close to the bell brace. When they started putting levers on them, there wasn't room between the valve and the brace for someone's thumb. Why didn't they just move the brace and/or the valve? I figure someone at Conn (maybe Jake Burkle) understood the potential impact of moving things around.
Looking through images over at The Conn Loyalist, it seems that Conn transitioned straight from "string and thong" to a "thumb-under-brace" system, probably sometime around 1930 or so. On those early string and thong horns, the valve is very close to the bell brace. When they started putting levers on them, there wasn't room between the valve and the brace for someone's thumb. Why didn't they just move the brace and/or the valve? I figure someone at Conn (maybe Jake Burkle) understood the potential impact of moving things around.
- Macbone1
- Posts: 501
- Joined: Oct 01, 2019
The importance of where the bell brace actually is located certainly does come into play, thanks gents.
Yes, even if there is no trigger....King 3Bs and I have never gotten along well because the bell brace feels far back on those.
Yes, even if there is no trigger....King 3Bs and I have never gotten along well because the bell brace feels far back on those.
- Reedman1
- Posts: 310
- Joined: Apr 14, 2018
If you can afford it, a Butler carbon fiber bass would lighten your load considerably. And you don't have to buy the whole horn - you can buy an outer slide to fit, ditto a bell flare.
https://butlertrombones.com
https://butlertrombones.com