Yamaha Bass Trombones in Review
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
By no means am I a Yamaha expert, but I currently own two Yamaha 613s (no letter and H) and I've played many examples of 822, 830, and one or two 622s. I'll type up my thoughts on the horns I would recommend for certain things, and the horns I wouldn't recommend.
Starting with the early horns, I have played a 612 way in the past- I think the 611 and 612 fall into the same-ish camp. They are good horns but dependent, and the early ones don't have split triggers (and some don't have D slides either). If this is your cup of tea, then I think they are a solid choice, much like a Holton 180 but with much more modern valves.
Along comes the 613 and 613G (yellow and rose bells). These are very similar to the 612 but with independent valves in F/G or F/Gb, as far as I know they all came with both slides. They have a lightweight brass slide and a light 10 inch bell. I currently own and use a 613 regularly for commercial settings, both at Disneyland and big band playing. These are great basses, easy to play, light, by far the most modern valves of the time (mid-'80s), efficient, you name it. A broad sound with a nice color to it, these are NOT boring. They are not perfect- the ranges are not quite even. High range is not bad on these but many modern horns will have a bit more focus and ease up there. The low range is easy enough, but not in a way that makes playing Bordognis down an octave or two a fun exercise, more in a Phil Teele way instead. I've tried to use my 613 in more "classical" settings a couple times, both in trombone choir and wind ensemble- for me it fell flat, as the sound just doesn't have the depth that some other more orchestrally oriented basses do.
The 613H comes along a decade or so later, and despite carrying the 613 name only carries a couple parts across- I think only the valves themselves (which are very good, again). These have a yellow slide with nickel oversleeves and a rose bell. This is largely a Bach 50 copy with nice valves. In that way it definitely succeeds, this has that depth the previous 613 lacks and a much more "legit" articulation. Ranges are more even, high range is quite good, low range has more of that ease for lines. These slides are compatible with Bachs at this point and I find it to play quite well with a 50 slide. And yes, these have the ability to be in G or Gb and come with both slides as well. Quite forward looking of Yamaha in many regards. Despite all the advantages this instrument has over the 613, I will be selling mine- I have Bachs to do Bach things, after all!
The 622 is Yeo's first design with Yamaha, and is largely similar to the 613H in many ways- it's again a Bach 50ish copy with some differences. I really liked the way the one I borrowed played, but my main gripe (other than it being dependent, of course) is that all the wraps are on the outside of the bell section, which makes the balance for me not very comfortable. Otherwise, this struck me largely as the 613H did, as a nice even instrument with a good orchestral sound. Neither the 613H or this horn is boring, but there is some "grain" lost to a good Bach 50... perhaps the bell making process, I couldn't tell you.
Now we get to the Xenos! I'll talk about the 822 first, Yeo's successor to the 622. It's largely similar to the 622 but now with a rose bell, fancy valve caps, and a few other small changes. I really like how these play and sound- some of that grain lost in the earlier horns is back, and these are very good orchestral basses. If there were some way they could make an independent version of this, I think it would be Yamaha's best bass trombone. Again, all the wraps are on the outside which is a bummer. Both the 622 and the 822 are designed with Yeo's mouthpiece in mind- pretty short, 1 1/8G sized, large throat. If you play with something tighter, smaller, etc., I find these horns to not play nearly as well. The leadpipe and rest of the instrument is definitely designed to give efficiency to that large mouthpiece.
Last up we have the Xeno 830 (and 830G, though I have not personally seen one of these in person). These are a continuation of the 613H, with a couple changes here and there. I've played 7-8 of these in various places and Disneyland provides one for the bass trombonists. For some reason, whether it's due to the handmaking of the bell or other QC factors, these are one of the least consistent Yamaha models they've ever produced- I have two friends with 613s and they play JUST like mine, to the point that I'm not sure I could tell blindfolded. The 613H strikes me the same way, and I've liked all the 822s I've played. The 830 is all over the map, both in playability and sound. The one I've played the most, at Disney, is right in the middle- easy enough to play, strangely inefficient, very little sound, and more boring than I can put into words. Some have been bright, snappy, colorful. Some have been huge, dense, orchestral. Some are plainly bad, with no focus anywhere and even less sound. From what I hear, Steve Fissel (Seattle Symphony former bass trombonist) bought one sight unseen from Hornguys and received one that rivals Mt. Vernon Bachs in terms of sound and playability (I've heard the same thing about Murray Crewe's prototype). This is definitely a horn I would play before buying, DO NOT be fooled into thinking that all Yamahas are the same and yours will be just as good as the last one you played.
One thing to note about all of these Yamahas- they all have that deep mouthpiece engagement, in that the mouthpiece goes in just a bit farther than it would in almost any other instrument. It's enough that Christan Griego offers a different Yamaha shank version of his mouthpieces. I'm actually considering it for my Markey 87 in my 613. Some pieces (like big Greg Blacks, for instance) are a bit short already, and make the horn even a bit harder to center and play consistently.
Earlier Yamahas, 613 and before, have chrome loss issues on the inner slides. Mine has a bit of loss, and so do all of the others I know. My slide is eminently useable, but it's an issue to keep in mind.
Also of note- starting with the 613H/622 generation, Yamaha started using very soft brass for many of the parts and these and later horns are much more susceptible to damage. 6 of the Yamaha 830s I've played were bought for the UCLA marching band. I played them before they were handed out to the kids. Within a couple weeks, every single one of them had a bent rotor knuckle and scrunched bell brace. My 613 (and actually, another that I played next to last night of all things) has a ripple in the F attachment on the top tube around the brace to the tuning slide receiver. There's a reason we don't see many of these surviving school use or even minor accidents.
Well, there we go. If I had to rank the horns in order of usefulness for me:
613/613G
613H
822
622
611/612
830
If you really enjoy your 830, I'm glad for you- the one I used at work was so soul-sucking that I've had to buy another instrument to use there just to avoid it, and it ended up being a 36 year old Yamaha that's better in basically every way.
There are some great Yamaha basses out there (some for cheaper than they perhaps should be) and hopefully this helps someone look for theirs.
Bonus photo of 613 and 613H for differences:
Starting with the early horns, I have played a 612 way in the past- I think the 611 and 612 fall into the same-ish camp. They are good horns but dependent, and the early ones don't have split triggers (and some don't have D slides either). If this is your cup of tea, then I think they are a solid choice, much like a Holton 180 but with much more modern valves.
Along comes the 613 and 613G (yellow and rose bells). These are very similar to the 612 but with independent valves in F/G or F/Gb, as far as I know they all came with both slides. They have a lightweight brass slide and a light 10 inch bell. I currently own and use a 613 regularly for commercial settings, both at Disneyland and big band playing. These are great basses, easy to play, light, by far the most modern valves of the time (mid-'80s), efficient, you name it. A broad sound with a nice color to it, these are NOT boring. They are not perfect- the ranges are not quite even. High range is not bad on these but many modern horns will have a bit more focus and ease up there. The low range is easy enough, but not in a way that makes playing Bordognis down an octave or two a fun exercise, more in a Phil Teele way instead. I've tried to use my 613 in more "classical" settings a couple times, both in trombone choir and wind ensemble- for me it fell flat, as the sound just doesn't have the depth that some other more orchestrally oriented basses do.
The 613H comes along a decade or so later, and despite carrying the 613 name only carries a couple parts across- I think only the valves themselves (which are very good, again). These have a yellow slide with nickel oversleeves and a rose bell. This is largely a Bach 50 copy with nice valves. In that way it definitely succeeds, this has that depth the previous 613 lacks and a much more "legit" articulation. Ranges are more even, high range is quite good, low range has more of that ease for lines. These slides are compatible with Bachs at this point and I find it to play quite well with a 50 slide. And yes, these have the ability to be in G or Gb and come with both slides as well. Quite forward looking of Yamaha in many regards. Despite all the advantages this instrument has over the 613, I will be selling mine- I have Bachs to do Bach things, after all!
The 622 is Yeo's first design with Yamaha, and is largely similar to the 613H in many ways- it's again a Bach 50ish copy with some differences. I really liked the way the one I borrowed played, but my main gripe (other than it being dependent, of course) is that all the wraps are on the outside of the bell section, which makes the balance for me not very comfortable. Otherwise, this struck me largely as the 613H did, as a nice even instrument with a good orchestral sound. Neither the 613H or this horn is boring, but there is some "grain" lost to a good Bach 50... perhaps the bell making process, I couldn't tell you.
Now we get to the Xenos! I'll talk about the 822 first, Yeo's successor to the 622. It's largely similar to the 622 but now with a rose bell, fancy valve caps, and a few other small changes. I really like how these play and sound- some of that grain lost in the earlier horns is back, and these are very good orchestral basses. If there were some way they could make an independent version of this, I think it would be Yamaha's best bass trombone. Again, all the wraps are on the outside which is a bummer. Both the 622 and the 822 are designed with Yeo's mouthpiece in mind- pretty short, 1 1/8G sized, large throat. If you play with something tighter, smaller, etc., I find these horns to not play nearly as well. The leadpipe and rest of the instrument is definitely designed to give efficiency to that large mouthpiece.
Last up we have the Xeno 830 (and 830G, though I have not personally seen one of these in person). These are a continuation of the 613H, with a couple changes here and there. I've played 7-8 of these in various places and Disneyland provides one for the bass trombonists. For some reason, whether it's due to the handmaking of the bell or other QC factors, these are one of the least consistent Yamaha models they've ever produced- I have two friends with 613s and they play JUST like mine, to the point that I'm not sure I could tell blindfolded. The 613H strikes me the same way, and I've liked all the 822s I've played. The 830 is all over the map, both in playability and sound. The one I've played the most, at Disney, is right in the middle- easy enough to play, strangely inefficient, very little sound, and more boring than I can put into words. Some have been bright, snappy, colorful. Some have been huge, dense, orchestral. Some are plainly bad, with no focus anywhere and even less sound. From what I hear, Steve Fissel (Seattle Symphony former bass trombonist) bought one sight unseen from Hornguys and received one that rivals Mt. Vernon Bachs in terms of sound and playability (I've heard the same thing about Murray Crewe's prototype). This is definitely a horn I would play before buying, DO NOT be fooled into thinking that all Yamahas are the same and yours will be just as good as the last one you played.
One thing to note about all of these Yamahas- they all have that deep mouthpiece engagement, in that the mouthpiece goes in just a bit farther than it would in almost any other instrument. It's enough that Christan Griego offers a different Yamaha shank version of his mouthpieces. I'm actually considering it for my Markey 87 in my 613. Some pieces (like big Greg Blacks, for instance) are a bit short already, and make the horn even a bit harder to center and play consistently.
Earlier Yamahas, 613 and before, have chrome loss issues on the inner slides. Mine has a bit of loss, and so do all of the others I know. My slide is eminently useable, but it's an issue to keep in mind.
Also of note- starting with the 613H/622 generation, Yamaha started using very soft brass for many of the parts and these and later horns are much more susceptible to damage. 6 of the Yamaha 830s I've played were bought for the UCLA marching band. I played them before they were handed out to the kids. Within a couple weeks, every single one of them had a bent rotor knuckle and scrunched bell brace. My 613 (and actually, another that I played next to last night of all things) has a ripple in the F attachment on the top tube around the brace to the tuning slide receiver. There's a reason we don't see many of these surviving school use or even minor accidents.
Well, there we go. If I had to rank the horns in order of usefulness for me:
613/613G
613H
822
622
611/612
830
If you really enjoy your 830, I'm glad for you- the one I used at work was so soul-sucking that I've had to buy another instrument to use there just to avoid it, and it ended up being a 36 year old Yamaha that's better in basically every way.
There are some great Yamaha basses out there (some for cheaper than they perhaps should be) and hopefully this helps someone look for theirs.
Bonus photo of 613 and 613H for differences:
- GabrielRice
- Posts: 1496
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Burgerbob"]The 622 is Yeo's first design with Yamaha, and is largely similar to the 613H in many ways- it's again a Bach 50 copy with perhaps? the same slide from the 613H, but a yellow bell.[/quote]
I don't think either of these statements is accurate. I've never seen a 622 with a yellow bell. They changed the tuning slide from yellow to gold brass with the 822, but AFAIK both bells were always gold.
I know for a fact that Yamaha went through an extensive prototyping process with Doug - including various experiments with the slide and leadpipe. If nothing else, I'm pretty sure the leadpipe in the 613H is quite long, and the 622 leadpipe is a pretty standard length. Or at least they were in early production. I got a guided tour of the then-new 613H at the ITF in Kalamazoo in 1990 or 91, and they showed me the very long leadpipe. Later on Doug let me play one of the 622 prototype slides for a while on my Bach; it had an extra-soft annealed crook and a short leadpipe, which I replaced with first a Conn pipe and then a 622 production pipe Doug loaned me.
You're right on about the 830. I've played a couple that were outstanding and some that were like banging trash can lids together.
I don't think either of these statements is accurate. I've never seen a 622 with a yellow bell. They changed the tuning slide from yellow to gold brass with the 822, but AFAIK both bells were always gold.
I know for a fact that Yamaha went through an extensive prototyping process with Doug - including various experiments with the slide and leadpipe. If nothing else, I'm pretty sure the leadpipe in the 613H is quite long, and the 622 leadpipe is a pretty standard length. Or at least they were in early production. I got a guided tour of the then-new 613H at the ITF in Kalamazoo in 1990 or 91, and they showed me the very long leadpipe. Later on Doug let me play one of the 622 prototype slides for a while on my Bach; it had an extra-soft annealed crook and a short leadpipe, which I replaced with first a Conn pipe and then a 622 production pipe Doug loaned me.
You're right on about the 830. I've played a couple that were outstanding and some that were like banging trash can lids together.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="GabrielRice"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="203941" time="1678038142" user_id="3131">
The 622 is Yeo's first design with Yamaha, and is largely similar to the 613H in many ways- it's again a Bach 50 copy with perhaps? the same slide from the 613H, but a yellow bell.[/quote]
I don't think either of these statements is accurate. I've never seen a 622 with a yellow bell. They changed the tuning slide from yellow to gold brass with the 822, but AFAIK both bells were always gold.
</QUOTE>
Yup, you're right. Derp!
The 622 is Yeo's first design with Yamaha, and is largely similar to the 613H in many ways- it's again a Bach 50 copy with perhaps? the same slide from the 613H, but a yellow bell.[/quote]
I don't think either of these statements is accurate. I've never seen a 622 with a yellow bell. They changed the tuning slide from yellow to gold brass with the 822, but AFAIK both bells were always gold.
</QUOTE>
Yup, you're right. Derp!
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="Bach5G"]No 620G?[/quote]
Never seen or played one. As far as I can tell, they are just a 421G with an added valve. I'm not a dependent guy so not very interesting to me.
Never seen or played one. As far as I can tell, they are just a 421G with an added valve. I'm not a dependent guy so not very interesting to me.
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="Bach5G" post_id="203954" time="1678041859" user_id="2999">No 620G?[/quote]
Never seen or played one. As far as I can tell, they are just a 421G with an added valve. I'm not a dependent guy so not very interesting to me.
</QUOTE> The 611, 612, and 620 all use the same leadpipe, which is the "M'PIPE BL421G". The Slides however have changed over time, and there are some differences. The last iteration of the 612 trombones had an all nickel slide, which was carried over to the 620G. The 620G also has a bell that is only used on that horn.
I would say the 620G is based on the 421G by way of the 612. The original 611/612 had slightly different valves, which were changed on the later versions. It was around that time, as far as I can tell, that the "pro" horns went to having the nickel silver valve casings, instead of brass. Though, the naming conventions and specifications over the years from yamaha leaves much to be desired.
Never seen or played one. As far as I can tell, they are just a 421G with an added valve. I'm not a dependent guy so not very interesting to me.
</QUOTE> The 611, 612, and 620 all use the same leadpipe, which is the "M'PIPE BL421G". The Slides however have changed over time, and there are some differences. The last iteration of the 612 trombones had an all nickel slide, which was carried over to the 620G. The 620G also has a bell that is only used on that horn.
I would say the 620G is based on the 421G by way of the 612. The original 611/612 had slightly different valves, which were changed on the later versions. It was around that time, as far as I can tell, that the "pro" horns went to having the nickel silver valve casings, instead of brass. Though, the naming conventions and specifications over the years from yamaha leaves much to be desired.
- sirisobhakya
- Posts: 445
- Joined: Jun 11, 2018
I own a 830 and play-tested another 3 of them. Strongly agree on the fact that they are all over the map. Mine is just right for me: enough bark at loud end but with a lot of low overtones. My underclassman’s is outright bad with no focus and a dull sound - to the point he was shocked when he tried mine. Another one is darker despite lighter than mine, and I kinda like it. The last one is just in the absolute middle.
I also notice that the 830 seems to like large, deep mouthpiece. The 59L supplied is not a good match in my opinion. I swapped to Doug Yeo and the horn has come alive. I think the leadpipe is quite tight and long, so a large mouthpiece counteracts that.
The 2-3 620Gs I have play-tested play like one would expect a Yamaha to play: easy, light, and consistent. The 421G I have tried plays like a laaaarge tenor.
The older generation horns are quite a different beast. A 612 I own is very dark and more free-blowing, but I don’t quite like the feeling. Also the 10-inch bell rim is quite close to the slide, and I crashed my fingers into the bell rim numerous times. The 613G (not H) feels like the 620G with slightly more resistance.
I also notice that the 830 seems to like large, deep mouthpiece. The 59L supplied is not a good match in my opinion. I swapped to Doug Yeo and the horn has come alive. I think the leadpipe is quite tight and long, so a large mouthpiece counteracts that.
The 2-3 620Gs I have play-tested play like one would expect a Yamaha to play: easy, light, and consistent. The 421G I have tried plays like a laaaarge tenor.
The older generation horns are quite a different beast. A 612 I own is very dark and more free-blowing, but I don’t quite like the feeling. Also the 10-inch bell rim is quite close to the slide, and I crashed my fingers into the bell rim numerous times. The 613G (not H) feels like the 620G with slightly more resistance.
- Tbarh
- Posts: 505
- Joined: Aug 16, 2018
Great review ,Aidan !<EMOJI seq="1f609" tseq="1f609">😉</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f44d" tseq="1f44d">👍</EMOJI>…Do You (or anybody else who read This) happen to know what the attachment bore is?…Standard ‘594 ?
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
Great and interesting review. I haven't at all that much experience of Yamaha basses. I have the singles 321, 322 and a dependant 612R. This thread deals with doubles so far but In short I want to add only that the singles are great. Now the double 612R was my first bass and I bought it new 1989. I don't mind independant but most basses I own are dependant like this one. It has a D-slide, Eb-slide and an bE-slide. Rollers on the triggers. I miss split triggers. The 612R has a red 10" cupper-laquer bell. It has a great low register, fantastic pedals. It is a bit uneven in registers just as Aidan says. The higer register as early as c above the staff loose some lush and needs more work to get the desired "core" back. To me this is not my choice for big band. The sound is a bit too big and spread to the sides for my taste and instead I want my bass to have more projection. I think it's the 10" bell that spread the sound. I have had that experience with every 10" bell bass when I played in a big band. My friends also say this since they always give me feedback on any new bass I bring. They always prefer the ones with 9 1/2" or 9" bells before the larger ones. The 612R is very easy to play and produce a huge sound in the staff and below. Wasn't the 612 the Phil Theele model? Interested also if you've played a 612R, Aidan?
/Tom
/Tom
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
[quote="imsevimse"]Now the double 612R was my first bass and I bought it new 1989. I don't mind independant but most basses I own are dependant like this one. It has a D-slide, Eb-slide and an bE-slide. Rollers on the triggers. I miss split triggers. The 612R has a red 10" cupper-laquer bell. It has a great low register, fantastic pedals.[/quote] Oh wow, I've never seen a bE pedal for the 612R, just the Eb and D. I have seen some interesting variations off the 611/612 out there though, like a 611 II that did not have split triggers, and was marked on the cork barrel. The 611/612 was in production for at least 20 years, and they went through a bunch of different versions, like many of the Yamaha trombones that have been in production for a long time. They seem to have three distinct eras in terms of slide construction. Also, the 611 eventually disappeared and was renamed the 612R, as the only difference between the 611 and 612 was the bell.
- spencercarran
- Posts: 689
- Joined: Oct 17, 2020
[quote="Burgerbob"]The 613H comes along a decade or so later, and despite carrying the 613 name only carries a couple parts across- I think only the valves themselves (which are very good, again). These have a yellow slide with nickel oversleeves and a rose bell. This is largely a Bach 50 copy with nice valves. In that way it definitely succeeds, this has that depth the previous 613 lacks and a much more "legit" articulation. Ranges are more even, high range is quite good, low range has more of that ease for lines. These slides are compatible with Bachs at this point and I find it to play quite well with a 50 slide. And yes, these have the ability to be in G or Gb and come with both slides as well. Quite forward looking of Yamaha in many regards. Despite all the advantages this instrument has over the 613, I will be selling mine- I have Bachs to do Bach things, after all![/quote]
Before selling it along, you should try out G tuning! It's way more useful.
Before selling it along, you should try out G tuning! It's way more useful.
- mahlertwo
- Posts: 289
- Joined: Apr 03, 2019
The 613H's wrap is pretty different from a 50, isn't it?
- JeffBone44
- Posts: 367
- Joined: Oct 24, 2022
I very nearly bought the Yamaha Doug Yeo model as my first bass trombone about 20 years ago - it must have been the 622 back then. It was a very evenly balanced horn with a great sound. I ended up getting a Shires, but I think I would have been happy with the Yeo for a good while, until I wanted to switch to independent valves.
- Digidog
- Posts: 483
- Joined: Dec 13, 2018
Thanks, Aidan, for a great oversight and an insightful review! Though I'm only a Yamaha single valve bass player - my trusty old 421 and my dual is my 62H - I find it always useful with more knowledge from people with experience.
Play long and prosper, Good Sir, and I look forward to more talk about Yam basses.
Play long and prosper, Good Sir, and I look forward to more talk about Yam basses.
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
[quote="tbonesullivan"]<QUOTE author="imsevimse" post_id="204015" time="1678100376" user_id="3173"> Now the double 612R was my first bass and I bought it new 1989. I don't mind independant but most basses I own are dependant like this one. It has a D-slide, Eb-slide and an bE-slide. Rollers on the triggers. I miss split triggers. The 612R has a red 10" cupper-laquer bell. It has a great low register, fantastic pedals.[/quote] Oh wow, I've never seen a bE pedal for the 612R, just the Eb and D....
</QUOTE>
Yes, I should have told that the bE tuning was something I had a tech do. Since the horn responded better with the Eb slide compared to the D and it responded best with the slide totally removed I started to use it with corks. I "plugged" the attachment to avoid getting dirt in the valve and started to use it as a single for a while. This was long ago and at that time I did not know the first double basses had an E-slide and there was no Internet (or I had no computer and no Internet). My idea was to make the slide as short as possible to get a more responsive horn, particularly in the upper register. The tech did a good job but with the slide pulled it became just long enough for bE and enabled a B at the far end, a lot more useful than E but just pure luck. I became a collector in 2014-2015 and then I bought other better basses, but that Yamaha with bE was my bass for about 15 years and served me well.
The horn responds better with the bE-slide but still better with no slide at all...
... so yes you are right the bE-slide for a 612R was not available when I bought it. :hi:
/Tom
</QUOTE>
Yes, I should have told that the bE tuning was something I had a tech do. Since the horn responded better with the Eb slide compared to the D and it responded best with the slide totally removed I started to use it with corks. I "plugged" the attachment to avoid getting dirt in the valve and started to use it as a single for a while. This was long ago and at that time I did not know the first double basses had an E-slide and there was no Internet (or I had no computer and no Internet). My idea was to make the slide as short as possible to get a more responsive horn, particularly in the upper register. The tech did a good job but with the slide pulled it became just long enough for bE and enabled a B at the far end, a lot more useful than E but just pure luck. I became a collector in 2014-2015 and then I bought other better basses, but that Yamaha with bE was my bass for about 15 years and served me well.
The horn responds better with the bE-slide but still better with no slide at all...
... so yes you are right the bE-slide for a 612R was not available when I bought it. :hi:
/Tom
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="Tbarh"]Great review ,Aidan !<EMOJI seq="1f609" tseq="1f609">😉</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f44d" tseq="1f44d">👍</EMOJI>…Do You (or anybody else who read This) happen to know what the attachment bore is?…Standard ‘594 ?[/quote]
Yes, both horns I have measure right at .594.
[quote="imsevimse"]Wasn't the 612 the Phil Theele model? Interested also if you've played a 612R, Aidan?
/Tom[/quote]
Yes, Phil played the 612. I have a friend with one of his horns (gold plated!). It plays great, similar to the 613 but not the same. I personally prefer the 613, it's a bit more even and doesn't have quite the same level of unevenness. Great sound though.
[quote="spencercarran"]
Before selling it along, you should try out G tuning! It's way more useful.[/quote]
I actually have the G slide for my 613 as well- I both prefer F/Gb (low C and B aren't super far out) and it's just too late for me, I have too much muscle memory baked in at this point.
[quote="mahlertwo"]The 613H's wrap is pretty different from a 50, isn't it?[/quote]
Yes, but of course most 50 copies are not copies of the valves or wrap, but the slide, tuning slide, and bell.
Yes, both horns I have measure right at .594.
[quote="imsevimse"]Wasn't the 612 the Phil Theele model? Interested also if you've played a 612R, Aidan?
/Tom[/quote]
Yes, Phil played the 612. I have a friend with one of his horns (gold plated!). It plays great, similar to the 613 but not the same. I personally prefer the 613, it's a bit more even and doesn't have quite the same level of unevenness. Great sound though.
[quote="spencercarran"]
Before selling it along, you should try out G tuning! It's way more useful.[/quote]
I actually have the G slide for my 613 as well- I both prefer F/Gb (low C and B aren't super far out) and it's just too late for me, I have too much muscle memory baked in at this point.
[quote="mahlertwo"]The 613H's wrap is pretty different from a 50, isn't it?[/quote]
Yes, but of course most 50 copies are not copies of the valves or wrap, but the slide, tuning slide, and bell.
- spencercarran
- Posts: 689
- Joined: Oct 17, 2020
[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="spencercarran" post_id="204026" time="1678112489" user_id="10390">
Before selling it along, you should try out G tuning! It's way more useful.[/quote]
I actually have the G slide for my 613 as well- I both prefer F/Gb (low C and B aren't super far out) and it's just too late for me, I have too much muscle memory baked in at this point.
</QUOTE>
Combined D is definitely more convenient than Eb (and probably mandatory for folks with shorter arms), but the whole point of independent valves is to have them be, well, independently useful. F/Gb are just too close to each other IMO, not enough occasions where the second trigger is a clearly better choice than first.
I'm curious - you mentioned the 613H is compatible with Bach 50 handslides, do the main tuning slides also line up? And did you feel a dramatic difference between a 50 slide (or any of your other Bach-tenoned slides) and the stock Yamaha slide?
Before selling it along, you should try out G tuning! It's way more useful.[/quote]
I actually have the G slide for my 613 as well- I both prefer F/Gb (low C and B aren't super far out) and it's just too late for me, I have too much muscle memory baked in at this point.
</QUOTE>
Combined D is definitely more convenient than Eb (and probably mandatory for folks with shorter arms), but the whole point of independent valves is to have them be, well, independently useful. F/Gb are just too close to each other IMO, not enough occasions where the second trigger is a clearly better choice than first.
I'm curious - you mentioned the 613H is compatible with Bach 50 handslides, do the main tuning slides also line up? And did you feel a dramatic difference between a 50 slide (or any of your other Bach-tenoned slides) and the stock Yamaha slide?
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
[quote="mahlertwo"]The 613H's wrap is pretty different from a 50, isn't it?[/quote] It is, and some other parts of the horn are as well. I think the big thing though is the bell, which I believe is "H" for heavyweight? Part of me has always wondered how it would work out of someone stuck a 613H bell onto a 830 Xeno. They share a LOT of the same parts. I think the new "lighter weight" bell is a lot of why some seem to be great, and others just "mild". Maybe working with the thinner brass makes it harder to make them consistently.
- MrHCinDE
- Posts: 1039
- Joined: Jul 01, 2018
Thanks for taking the time to write this up.
I’m interested to hear what you mean by this:
[quote="Burgerbob"]If this is your cup of tea, then I think they are a solid choice, much like a Holton 180 but with much more modern valves.[/quote]
At the moment I have a Yamaha 612Rii and a Holton TR-180 in the cupboard. My 612Rii has AFAIK factory ‘modern’ trigger mechanisms for the thumb and finger. I don’t believe it was a mod. The Holton has basically the same setup which certainly was a mod.
The valves on my Yamaha are mechanically excellent and the horn has a very accessible lower range. I have wondered in the past how standard rotors can play so well. My Holton valves are mechanically very very good, maybe just very slightly slower than the Yamaha but neither the speed nor playability of the Holton valves are substantially different to the Yamaha and for sure I couldn’t justify getting them swapped out.
Is the trigger setup what you mean by modern valves or do you mean the actual valves themselves? If so what I’d like to ask what is the difference in the valves themselves?
(For full disclosure I have tested both for a while and have decided to keep the Holton. The Yamaha is currently listed on here for sale.)
I’m interested to hear what you mean by this:
[quote="Burgerbob"]If this is your cup of tea, then I think they are a solid choice, much like a Holton 180 but with much more modern valves.[/quote]
At the moment I have a Yamaha 612Rii and a Holton TR-180 in the cupboard. My 612Rii has AFAIK factory ‘modern’ trigger mechanisms for the thumb and finger. I don’t believe it was a mod. The Holton has basically the same setup which certainly was a mod.
The valves on my Yamaha are mechanically excellent and the horn has a very accessible lower range. I have wondered in the past how standard rotors can play so well. My Holton valves are mechanically very very good, maybe just very slightly slower than the Yamaha but neither the speed nor playability of the Holton valves are substantially different to the Yamaha and for sure I couldn’t justify getting them swapped out.
Is the trigger setup what you mean by modern valves or do you mean the actual valves themselves? If so what I’d like to ask what is the difference in the valves themselves?
(For full disclosure I have tested both for a while and have decided to keep the Holton. The Yamaha is currently listed on here for sale.)
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
I guess I should add my experience to the thread. I've owned a YBL-612 RII for quite some time, and it was my only bass trombone for most of this time. I had for a while been looking at an older YBL-612 with a Yellow Brass bell at Dillon music without split triggers, but ultimately wasn't playing bass enough at that point to justify things.k
I also owned a YBL-613H Silver for a year, and for a while owned that, the 612 RII, and a new 830 Xeno, and was A/Bing them for a quite a while. I'm definitely no where as accomplished a player as Burgerbob or many other players, but I have played all three in an orchestral setting for multiple concerts.
Regarding the YBL-613H S, I can echo what has been said: it plays like a Bach 50 in some ways. Some have called it the "best bach 50 that bach never built". The example I had did look to have been a marching horn or at least a school horn for a while, and it definitely had past damage to the valve wraps, and the second valve slide outer ferrules looked a bit expanded, so I had to use a very thick grease for the G and Gb crooks. There also was a wrinkle all the way around in the bell ferrule for the main tuning slide, so the brass used for these definitely does not seem to be work hardened much. The sound was very good, nice deep and with a lot of core. It had a pretty high volume threshold before it started to sound bad.
I ended up selling it however, as at least with the example I have, the 830 Xeno outperformed it in every way. It was new, so it didn't have any condition issues, but I also felt that it was easier to get the 830 to sound like how I wanted it to sound, and it wasn't as locked into a specific sound as the 613H was. I definitely don't feel that it is a dead sounding or that I have to fight the horn at all to get the volume and sound that I like.
Now, regarding the YBL-611/612, there are actually several generations of these horns, which were first developed in the mid 1970s. I believe they were based on the Yamaha YBL-421 bass trombone, which originally had a Conn style traditional wrap. They originally came out with yellow brass outer slides with nickel silver over sleeves, and a valve wrap somewhat like a Conn Dependent horn. Yamaha kept the F-attachment tuning slide at the lower back of the horn, but decided to make a very elegant "shepherds crook" tube so that the crook for the dependent valve was at the top of the valve, not in the middle. I have no idea why they did this, and in some ways it made it more difficult to get the later D-slide to fit. Both came with a double thumb paddle like seen on other dependent horns.
In terms of "generations", the 611/612 at some point moved to a "II" marking after the model number, and at this time Yamaha was using an inner slide brace that had an enlarged flange on the slide receiver side, which looked some what "olds" style. They also moved from the Yellow outer slide with nickel oversleeves to a yellow slide with drawn-in oversleeves. The last version of the slide went back to a standard brace on the inner slide, and changed the outer slide to entirely nickel silver. However I have seen examples with the later design brass outer slide, but without the flange on the inner slide. I have also seen examples with Nickel Outer slides but no split triggers. There definitely seems to have been significant changes back and forth during the run. Also of note is that the 611 was renamed to the 612R at some point. They also changed the valves from brass cased valves to nickel silver cased valves that look bigger, but I do not know if they are actually larger inside.
The horn that I have is a 612R II, which has the split triggers and nickel silver outer side. I believe this is the last version that Yamaha sold, and it was replaced by the 620G in the lineup. It came with an Eb and a D crook for the second valve, and to echo was was said by "imsevimse", which crook you have definitely affects the response of the horn. The Eb crook is a simple offset crook, and it tunes where it inserts into the ferrules attached to the valve. The D crook probably weighs 4-5 times what the Eb crook does, as not only is it longer, it also has a 6-7 inch long tuning slide as well, and does not tune at the valve ferrules. Playing it the Eb crook results in a horn that is much more "alive", and maybe more suitable for commercial / jazz playing. With the D crook, it is a bit easier to center, and harder to make it "soar" by pushing the volume. Looking at pictures of Phil Teele, he seems to have played the 612 with the Eb crook in it, and I have never seen a picture of him with the D crook installed.
Playing wise, the 612RII can be a bit diffuse at times, and I had to work with it a lot to get a more broad "orchestral" sound, but it definitely is possible. It won't sound like a Bach 50, but it definitely can sound good.
I also owned a YBL-613H Silver for a year, and for a while owned that, the 612 RII, and a new 830 Xeno, and was A/Bing them for a quite a while. I'm definitely no where as accomplished a player as Burgerbob or many other players, but I have played all three in an orchestral setting for multiple concerts.
Regarding the YBL-613H S, I can echo what has been said: it plays like a Bach 50 in some ways. Some have called it the "best bach 50 that bach never built". The example I had did look to have been a marching horn or at least a school horn for a while, and it definitely had past damage to the valve wraps, and the second valve slide outer ferrules looked a bit expanded, so I had to use a very thick grease for the G and Gb crooks. There also was a wrinkle all the way around in the bell ferrule for the main tuning slide, so the brass used for these definitely does not seem to be work hardened much. The sound was very good, nice deep and with a lot of core. It had a pretty high volume threshold before it started to sound bad.
I ended up selling it however, as at least with the example I have, the 830 Xeno outperformed it in every way. It was new, so it didn't have any condition issues, but I also felt that it was easier to get the 830 to sound like how I wanted it to sound, and it wasn't as locked into a specific sound as the 613H was. I definitely don't feel that it is a dead sounding or that I have to fight the horn at all to get the volume and sound that I like.
Now, regarding the YBL-611/612, there are actually several generations of these horns, which were first developed in the mid 1970s. I believe they were based on the Yamaha YBL-421 bass trombone, which originally had a Conn style traditional wrap. They originally came out with yellow brass outer slides with nickel silver over sleeves, and a valve wrap somewhat like a Conn Dependent horn. Yamaha kept the F-attachment tuning slide at the lower back of the horn, but decided to make a very elegant "shepherds crook" tube so that the crook for the dependent valve was at the top of the valve, not in the middle. I have no idea why they did this, and in some ways it made it more difficult to get the later D-slide to fit. Both came with a double thumb paddle like seen on other dependent horns.
In terms of "generations", the 611/612 at some point moved to a "II" marking after the model number, and at this time Yamaha was using an inner slide brace that had an enlarged flange on the slide receiver side, which looked some what "olds" style. They also moved from the Yellow outer slide with nickel oversleeves to a yellow slide with drawn-in oversleeves. The last version of the slide went back to a standard brace on the inner slide, and changed the outer slide to entirely nickel silver. However I have seen examples with the later design brass outer slide, but without the flange on the inner slide. I have also seen examples with Nickel Outer slides but no split triggers. There definitely seems to have been significant changes back and forth during the run. Also of note is that the 611 was renamed to the 612R at some point. They also changed the valves from brass cased valves to nickel silver cased valves that look bigger, but I do not know if they are actually larger inside.
The horn that I have is a 612R II, which has the split triggers and nickel silver outer side. I believe this is the last version that Yamaha sold, and it was replaced by the 620G in the lineup. It came with an Eb and a D crook for the second valve, and to echo was was said by "imsevimse", which crook you have definitely affects the response of the horn. The Eb crook is a simple offset crook, and it tunes where it inserts into the ferrules attached to the valve. The D crook probably weighs 4-5 times what the Eb crook does, as not only is it longer, it also has a 6-7 inch long tuning slide as well, and does not tune at the valve ferrules. Playing it the Eb crook results in a horn that is much more "alive", and maybe more suitable for commercial / jazz playing. With the D crook, it is a bit easier to center, and harder to make it "soar" by pushing the volume. Looking at pictures of Phil Teele, he seems to have played the 612 with the Eb crook in it, and I have never seen a picture of him with the D crook installed.
Playing wise, the 612RII can be a bit diffuse at times, and I had to work with it a lot to get a more broad "orchestral" sound, but it definitely is possible. It won't sound like a Bach 50, but it definitely can sound good.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="MrHCinDE"]Thanks for taking the time to write this up.
I’m interested to hear what you mean by this:
<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="203941" time="1678038142" user_id="3131">
If this is your cup of tea, then I think they are a solid choice, much like a Holton 180 but with much more modern valves.[/quote]
</QUOTE>
The valves themselves are much more modern, if you check out the cores. Larger, better ported, longer-lasting with nice tapered bearings... the list goes on. I don't know anyone that was doing anything nearly as advanced at the time, for sure.
I’m interested to hear what you mean by this:
<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="203941" time="1678038142" user_id="3131">
If this is your cup of tea, then I think they are a solid choice, much like a Holton 180 but with much more modern valves.[/quote]
</QUOTE>
The valves themselves are much more modern, if you check out the cores. Larger, better ported, longer-lasting with nice tapered bearings... the list goes on. I don't know anyone that was doing anything nearly as advanced at the time, for sure.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="spencercarran"][
I'm curious - you mentioned the 613H is compatible with Bach 50 handslides, do the main tuning slides also line up? And did you feel a dramatic difference between a 50 slide (or any of your other Bach-tenoned slides) and the stock Yamaha slide?[/quote]
The tuning slides look to be the same dimensions, but Yamaha uses a different thickness of tubing and they can't be switched around. I tried!
And yes, the slides all feel quite different, just like they do on other horns. I actually need to try the Yamaha slide on my Bach setups, oops!
I'm curious - you mentioned the 613H is compatible with Bach 50 handslides, do the main tuning slides also line up? And did you feel a dramatic difference between a 50 slide (or any of your other Bach-tenoned slides) and the stock Yamaha slide?[/quote]
The tuning slides look to be the same dimensions, but Yamaha uses a different thickness of tubing and they can't be switched around. I tried!
And yes, the slides all feel quite different, just like they do on other horns. I actually need to try the Yamaha slide on my Bach setups, oops!
- MrHCinDE
- Posts: 1039
- Joined: Jul 01, 2018
Thanks!
I wasn’t previously aware of those aspects of the design but goes some way to explain why they perform very respectably for a pair of standard rotors.
[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="MrHCinDE" post_id="204059" time="1678125160" user_id="3472">
Thanks for taking the time to write this up.
I’m interested to hear what you mean by this:
[/quote]
The valves themselves are much more modern, if you check out the cores. Larger, better ported, longer-lasting with nice tapered bearings... the list goes on. I don't know anyone that was doing anything nearly as advanced at the time, for sure.
</QUOTE>
I wasn’t previously aware of those aspects of the design but goes some way to explain why they perform very respectably for a pair of standard rotors.
[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="MrHCinDE" post_id="204059" time="1678125160" user_id="3472">
Thanks for taking the time to write this up.
I’m interested to hear what you mean by this:
[/quote]
The valves themselves are much more modern, if you check out the cores. Larger, better ported, longer-lasting with nice tapered bearings... the list goes on. I don't know anyone that was doing anything nearly as advanced at the time, for sure.
</QUOTE>
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
[quote="MrHCinDE"]Thanks!
I wasn’t previously aware of those aspects of the design but goes some way to explain why they perform very respectably for a pair of standard rotors.
<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="204074" time="1678136763" user_id="3131">
The valves themselves are much more modern, if you check out the cores. Larger, better ported, longer-lasting with nice tapered bearings... the list goes on. I don't know anyone that was doing anything nearly as advanced at the time, for sure.[/quote]
</QUOTE> Just think, if Bach had actually listened and not has a director of Product Development who didn't want to make any changes to Vincent Bach's designs, things like the Thayer valve and so forth may never have gotten off the ground, or at least not to the extent that they did. Stuffy valves is one complaint that I can't remember ever hearing about a Yamaha trombone, which shows how much engineering they like to put into the horns. Now if only they were better about the "design" aspect in some ways.
I will say however that the cases they used in the 1990s to early 2000s were bullet proof. I've never seen cases so well designed to support the horn by the cross brace, and that keep the slide compartment at the top. My YBL-612RII was shipped to me in nothing but the case with some tape around it, and it made it through fine.
I wasn’t previously aware of those aspects of the design but goes some way to explain why they perform very respectably for a pair of standard rotors.
<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="204074" time="1678136763" user_id="3131">
The valves themselves are much more modern, if you check out the cores. Larger, better ported, longer-lasting with nice tapered bearings... the list goes on. I don't know anyone that was doing anything nearly as advanced at the time, for sure.[/quote]
</QUOTE> Just think, if Bach had actually listened and not has a director of Product Development who didn't want to make any changes to Vincent Bach's designs, things like the Thayer valve and so forth may never have gotten off the ground, or at least not to the extent that they did. Stuffy valves is one complaint that I can't remember ever hearing about a Yamaha trombone, which shows how much engineering they like to put into the horns. Now if only they were better about the "design" aspect in some ways.
I will say however that the cases they used in the 1990s to early 2000s were bullet proof. I've never seen cases so well designed to support the horn by the cross brace, and that keep the slide compartment at the top. My YBL-612RII was shipped to me in nothing but the case with some tape around it, and it made it through fine.
- MrHCinDE
- Posts: 1039
- Joined: Jul 01, 2018
This could turn out to be an expensive thread for me, might end up keeping the Yamaha 612Rii and the Holton TR-180.
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="tbonesullivan"]…..
Regarding the YBL-613H S, I can echo what has been said: it plays like a Bach 50 in some ways. Some have called it the "best bach 50 that bach never built".
…
Playing wise, the 612RII can be a bit diffuse at times, and I had to work with it a lot to get a more broad "orchestral" sound, but it definitely is possible. It won't sound like a Bach 50, but it definitely can sound good.[/quote]
Not sure that goes for just the 613… back in the late 90’s I spent a significant amount of time somewhat formally benchmarking my old 50B2 (stock, but silver plated), a new Edwards, and a 622…
That 622 felt and sounded more Bach-like than the Bach sometimes. Should have bought it and put it in the basement, could have saved me a lot of time after moving on from the Edwards (and adding a Bach bell to the Edwards, etc…). Played a few notes on other 622s and 822s, none have captured my attention like that earlier one… but they have been very good.
Cheers,
Andy
Regarding the YBL-613H S, I can echo what has been said: it plays like a Bach 50 in some ways. Some have called it the "best bach 50 that bach never built".
…
Playing wise, the 612RII can be a bit diffuse at times, and I had to work with it a lot to get a more broad "orchestral" sound, but it definitely is possible. It won't sound like a Bach 50, but it definitely can sound good.[/quote]
Not sure that goes for just the 613… back in the late 90’s I spent a significant amount of time somewhat formally benchmarking my old 50B2 (stock, but silver plated), a new Edwards, and a 622…
That 622 felt and sounded more Bach-like than the Bach sometimes. Should have bought it and put it in the basement, could have saved me a lot of time after moving on from the Edwards (and adding a Bach bell to the Edwards, etc…). Played a few notes on other 622s and 822s, none have captured my attention like that earlier one… but they have been very good.
Cheers,
Andy
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
[quote="elmsandr"]Not sure that goes for just the 613… back in the late 90’s I spent a significant amount of time somewhat formally benchmarking my old 50B2 (stock, but silver plated), a new Edwards, and a 622…
That 622 felt and sounded more Bach-like than the Bach sometimes. Should have bought it and put it in the basement, could have saved me a lot of time after moving on from the Edwards (and adding a Bach bell to the Edwards, etc…). Played a few notes on other 622s and 822s, none have captured my attention like that earlier one… but they have been very good.
Cheers,
Andy[/quote] I have wanted to check out the Yeo models for a while. Unfortunately like most Yamahas I don't see them around very often. Of course, I have actually not spent any appreciable time on an actual Bach 50 that I know to be a "good" example. I have spent plenty of time on a Bach 42T and Bach LT36B, but I don't know how well that tracks to the 50.
The 822 would however give me a chance to finally get a single valve bass...
That 622 felt and sounded more Bach-like than the Bach sometimes. Should have bought it and put it in the basement, could have saved me a lot of time after moving on from the Edwards (and adding a Bach bell to the Edwards, etc…). Played a few notes on other 622s and 822s, none have captured my attention like that earlier one… but they have been very good.
Cheers,
Andy[/quote] I have wanted to check out the Yeo models for a while. Unfortunately like most Yamahas I don't see them around very often. Of course, I have actually not spent any appreciable time on an actual Bach 50 that I know to be a "good" example. I have spent plenty of time on a Bach 42T and Bach LT36B, but I don't know how well that tracks to the 50.
The 822 would however give me a chance to finally get a single valve bass...
- fsgazda
- Posts: 219
- Joined: Jun 24, 2018
The wrap on the 613H was inspired by (but not an exact copy of) the open wrap on Steve Norrell's Bach 50. I was studying with him when he was working with Yamaha on it.
In 1995 I bought an early Shires bass. The next day I stopped in Rayburn Music in Boston (an old college classmate was working there at the time) and tried a 613H they had in stock. The Yamaha was so close to the new Shires I just bought, but not quite, thank goodness! I have always liked the 613H the most of any Yamaha bass.
In 1995 I bought an early Shires bass. The next day I stopped in Rayburn Music in Boston (an old college classmate was working there at the time) and tried a 613H they had in stock. The Yamaha was so close to the new Shires I just bought, but not quite, thank goodness! I have always liked the 613H the most of any Yamaha bass.
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
[quote="fsgazda"]The wrap on the 613H was inspired by (but not an exact copy of) the open wrap on Steve Norrell's Bach 50. I was studying with him when he was working with Yamaha on it.[/quote] AH! I have seen pictures of that, and yes, it is a bit distinctive with the bracing, especially on the Gb crook. If only Yamaha would do a better job of keeping tracking of this, so much digging wouldn't be necessary. Unless Yamaha wants to keep artist involvement on the down low? Not sure why they would.
- BoomtownRath
- Posts: 112
- Joined: Oct 15, 2019
Great review Aidan!! Always great when someone offers insight and opens a discussion.
I've played on a friend's 622 a couple of years back at a brass band championships on a Yeo mpc and was pleasantly surprised. Very malleable and easy to manipulate in a brass band, I prefer and get on better with a Bach but the yamaha done the job!
I've played on a friend's 622 a couple of years back at a brass band championships on a Yeo mpc and was pleasantly surprised. Very malleable and easy to manipulate in a brass band, I prefer and get on better with a Bach but the yamaha done the job!
- greenbean
- Posts: 1958
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Thanks, Aidan!
My random comments:
--Re: Bach 50 copies. Yeah, who in their right mind would copy the valves or the wraps?...
--Re: Yamaha parts finder. Many of the parts listed are not what the model originally had; they are often the "pretty similar and currently manufactured" replacement part.
My random comments:
--Re: Bach 50 copies. Yeah, who in their right mind would copy the valves or the wraps?...
--Re: Yamaha parts finder. Many of the parts listed are not what the model originally had; they are often the "pretty similar and currently manufactured" replacement part.
- spencercarran
- Posts: 689
- Joined: Oct 17, 2020
[quote="tbonesullivan"]<QUOTE author="fsgazda" post_id="204138" time="1678206187" user_id="3435">
The wrap on the 613H was inspired by (but not an exact copy of) the open wrap on Steve Norrell's Bach 50. I was studying with him when he was working with Yamaha on it.[/quote] AH! I have seen pictures of that, and yes, it is a bit distinctive with the bracing, especially on the Gb crook. If only Yamaha would do a better job of keeping tracking of this, so much digging wouldn't be necessary. Unless Yamaha wants to keep artist involvement on the down low? Not sure why they would.
</QUOTE>
How long was Norrell using the Yamaha 613H? I think he may have switched to some other brand later.
The wrap on the 613H was inspired by (but not an exact copy of) the open wrap on Steve Norrell's Bach 50. I was studying with him when he was working with Yamaha on it.[/quote] AH! I have seen pictures of that, and yes, it is a bit distinctive with the bracing, especially on the Gb crook. If only Yamaha would do a better job of keeping tracking of this, so much digging wouldn't be necessary. Unless Yamaha wants to keep artist involvement on the down low? Not sure why they would.
</QUOTE>
How long was Norrell using the Yamaha 613H? I think he may have switched to some other brand later.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="spencercarran"]
How long was Norrell using the Yamaha 613H? I think he may have switched to some other brand later.[/quote]
Willson is what he played for a long time afterwards.
How long was Norrell using the Yamaha 613H? I think he may have switched to some other brand later.[/quote]
Willson is what he played for a long time afterwards.
- GabrielRice
- Posts: 1496
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="spencercarran"]How long was Norrell using the Yamaha 613H? I think he may have switched to some other brand later.[/quote]
He mostly played a Bach.
He mostly played a Bach.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Wow, somehow I've never posted in this thread.
The Yamaha bases all require tape to be used to build up the mouthpiece shank, or a special tip diameter like Aidan mentions. The 830 is one of the worst trombones I've ever played. The side is smooth and valves are smooth, at least. But you get nothing out for your effort. You get less out for your effort if you don't use tape. No effort is worth what you get out of it with both valves depressed.
The Yamaha bases all require tape to be used to build up the mouthpiece shank, or a special tip diameter like Aidan mentions. The 830 is one of the worst trombones I've ever played. The side is smooth and valves are smooth, at least. But you get nothing out for your effort. You get less out for your effort if you don't use tape. No effort is worth what you get out of it with both valves depressed.
- Bassbonetyler
- Posts: 87
- Joined: Mar 01, 2023
Deleted
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
[quote="harrisonreed"]The Yamaha bases all require tape to be used to build up the mouthpiece shank, or a special tip diameter like Aidan mentions.[/quote] Only the 613H / 830, and other models using that specific leadpipe do. I have not heard that the 622/822 have that issue, and the 611/612/620 basses definitely do not. My mouthpieces insert about 3-4mm less into my 612 as they did into my 613H and my 830 Xeno. The 612 also has pretty much the standard insertion depth I have seen on other basses I have tried out over the years.
I haven't had any issues with any mouthpieces not working correctly in either the 613H or the 830. I seem to recall King basses such as the duo gravis also had a larger receiver, which was part of the design, intended to work with a Bach 1 1/2G mouthpiece. Has anyone ever asked King bass trombone designer George McCracken about the reason for the leadpipe being that way? I'm fairly certain it was a conscious design decision, just as it was with the Yamaha trombones.
I haven't had any issues with any mouthpieces not working correctly in either the 613H or the 830. I seem to recall King basses such as the duo gravis also had a larger receiver, which was part of the design, intended to work with a Bach 1 1/2G mouthpiece. Has anyone ever asked King bass trombone designer George McCracken about the reason for the leadpipe being that way? I'm fairly certain it was a conscious design decision, just as it was with the Yamaha trombones.
- greenbean
- Posts: 1958
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]...The Yamaha bases all require tape to be used to build up the mouthpiece shank...[/quote]
None of the ones I have played on had an unusual receiver - 611, 612, 620, and 622. I guess it is not *all* Yamahas.
None of the ones I have played on had an unusual receiver - 611, 612, 620, and 622. I guess it is not *all* Yamahas.
- fsgazda
- Posts: 219
- Joined: Jun 24, 2018
[quote="GabrielRice"]<QUOTE author="spencercarran" post_id="204201" time="1678285180" user_id="10390">
How long was Norrell using the Yamaha 613H? I think he may have switched to some other brand later.[/quote]
He mostly played a Bach.
</QUOTE>
Yeah, even after partnering with Yamaha Steve still played his Bach 50 with in-line open wraps by Langolier (? not sure if I'm getting that right) on most things. He was still playing it in 2016 when I saw him play the Kleinhammer Sonata at ITF in NYC.
How long was Norrell using the Yamaha 613H? I think he may have switched to some other brand later.[/quote]
He mostly played a Bach.
</QUOTE>
Yeah, even after partnering with Yamaha Steve still played his Bach 50 with in-line open wraps by Langolier (? not sure if I'm getting that right) on most things. He was still playing it in 2016 when I saw him play the Kleinhammer Sonata at ITF in NYC.
- greenbean
- Posts: 1958
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="fsgazda"]...
Yeah, even after partnering with Yamaha Steve still played his Bach 50 with in-line open wraps by Langolier (? not sure if I'm getting that right) on most things. ...[/quote]
Marc Langelier, a brass tech in San Francisco in the early 80s
Yeah, even after partnering with Yamaha Steve still played his Bach 50 with in-line open wraps by Langolier (? not sure if I'm getting that right) on most things. ...[/quote]
Marc Langelier, a brass tech in San Francisco in the early 80s
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="tbonesullivan"]I seem to recall King basses such as the duo gravis also had a larger receiver, which was part of the design, intended to work with a Bach 1 1/2G mouthpiece. Has anyone ever asked King bass trombone designer George McCracken about the reason for the leadpipe being that way?[/quote]
The King large-shank receiver predates George McCracken's involvement; it's a holdover from the Symphony model (1410/1480). Not only is it larger that the "standard", it also seems to be a different taper (thus the tendency of Morse taper mouthpieces to wobble).
The King large-shank receiver predates George McCracken's involvement; it's a holdover from the Symphony model (1410/1480). Not only is it larger that the "standard", it also seems to be a different taper (thus the tendency of Morse taper mouthpieces to wobble).
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
[quote="JohnL"]The King large-shank receiver predates George McCracken's involvement; it's a holdover from the Symphony model (1410/1480). Not only is it larger that the "standard", it also seems to be a different taper (thus the tendency of Morse taper mouthpieces to wobble).[/quote] Reading elsewhere, I saw that it was potentially an attempt to have a more continuous taper, and there is actually supposed to be a "step" in the leadpipe that meets up with the bottom of the mouthpiece? Never really had the time to investigate one.
- aaronhynds
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Sep 21, 2018
Great thread! I am nothing more than an interloper and dabbler from the tuba world, but I love my 613H. I originally owned a Getzen 1062fdr, and I find the 613H to be much more my speed, even after several years of playing the Getzen. I was originally inspired to purchase the Yamaha after seeing one played by Doug Purviance (who remains one of the most impressive bass bone players I've seen in person).
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
Thought I'd add a couple more, and perhaps the owner of one can chime in as well:
8130G: This is a Japan-only, pre-Xeno, Custom model based on the 613/613G. It's got some differences- the one I played has a heavier bell, snakes on the tuning slide(!!), gold plating, some changes in the slide, and a different leadpipe. Otherwise it's very similar to the normal model. Basically, it is everything the 613 already was (easy to play, good ergonomics, good valves, etc) and fixes all the issues (high range being ok, but not great, more weight to the sound, etc). Amazing horn. In large contrast to
835: This is the new Xeno, replacing the 830. Some linkage changes, rose tuning slide, and some other things I haven't caught yet. Also available with a screwbell. In all honesty, the one I played at NAMM felt just like a pretty ok 830. Similar blow, sound, everything. I have played 830s that were better. The 8130 above is hands, shoulders, meters above the 835 in every way.
8130G: This is a Japan-only, pre-Xeno, Custom model based on the 613/613G. It's got some differences- the one I played has a heavier bell, snakes on the tuning slide(!!), gold plating, some changes in the slide, and a different leadpipe. Otherwise it's very similar to the normal model. Basically, it is everything the 613 already was (easy to play, good ergonomics, good valves, etc) and fixes all the issues (high range being ok, but not great, more weight to the sound, etc). Amazing horn. In large contrast to
835: This is the new Xeno, replacing the 830. Some linkage changes, rose tuning slide, and some other things I haven't caught yet. Also available with a screwbell. In all honesty, the one I played at NAMM felt just like a pretty ok 830. Similar blow, sound, everything. I have played 830s that were better. The 8130 above is hands, shoulders, meters above the 835 in every way.
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
I've seen a few of the 8130G (or maybe OG?) and that had a traditional F wrap and open G/Gb Wrap. There also was the 813UG, which looks like an evolved 613G.
I don't quite understand how Yamaha works in Japan, but it does appear that they can be custom ordered to some extent, both with the basses and the tenors.
I don't quite understand how Yamaha works in Japan, but it does appear that they can be custom ordered to some extent, both with the basses and the tenors.
- IdoMeshulam
- Posts: 88
- Joined: Aug 20, 2019
I’m the owner of the gold plated 8130G that Aidan mentioned. I’ve been looking for one for quite a while and finally found this one on eBay a little over a month ago. It has some crazy mods on it that appear to be factory made (thicker outer slide brace and tuning slide snakes), same with the gold plating, it’s very high quality so I’m pretty sure it was done in house. Absolutely amazing horn! I also own a 613G and despite the 2 horns looking very similar they both have completely different playing characteristics despite feeling very similar to the player.
My 8130G is a lot heavier than my 613G and therefore plays a lot more “orchestral”, the sound is darker and has a super warm quality to it, kinda like a good Bach 50 but just more of everything. The feedback behind the bell is not as good as on the 613G but I’m used to heavier bells from my smaller horns so it’s not that big of a deal for me. Overall It seems to be a very good mix between the best qualities of the 613G (nice open feel, responsiveness and big spreading sound) and the 613H (even ranges and more weight to the sound) rolled into one horn and I absolutely love everything about it!
The leadpipe on it is actually interesting, unlike other Yamaha basses it doesn’t “swallow” the mouthpiece, the insertion depth is about the same as a modern Edwards or a Shires. One other thing that seems to make a huge difference is the actual quality of brass. I took it to Brad Close for some minor dent removal and according to him, he had to apply a lot more force than usual, said that the metal is not as soft as “normal” Yamahas and seems to be of much higher quality.
I did get to play the new 835, nothing interesting. I owned an 830 for about 8 years, played about 8 of them and I honestly can’t say if one is better than the other. Felt pretty boring, wasn’t as open as the older models that I’m used to and despite being very “not insulting” in every way I can think of, didn’t make me wanna play it for more than a few minutes. The older 613H is better in pretty much every way if you’re looking for a Bach style Yamaha.
As for the 813UG, this is the missing link between the 613H and the 830. It was actually marketed in Japan under the Xeno line and shares a lot of its components with both models. I’d definitely be interested in trying one out, it’s the only independent Yamaha bass I haven't played on.
My 8130G is a lot heavier than my 613G and therefore plays a lot more “orchestral”, the sound is darker and has a super warm quality to it, kinda like a good Bach 50 but just more of everything. The feedback behind the bell is not as good as on the 613G but I’m used to heavier bells from my smaller horns so it’s not that big of a deal for me. Overall It seems to be a very good mix between the best qualities of the 613G (nice open feel, responsiveness and big spreading sound) and the 613H (even ranges and more weight to the sound) rolled into one horn and I absolutely love everything about it!
The leadpipe on it is actually interesting, unlike other Yamaha basses it doesn’t “swallow” the mouthpiece, the insertion depth is about the same as a modern Edwards or a Shires. One other thing that seems to make a huge difference is the actual quality of brass. I took it to Brad Close for some minor dent removal and according to him, he had to apply a lot more force than usual, said that the metal is not as soft as “normal” Yamahas and seems to be of much higher quality.
I did get to play the new 835, nothing interesting. I owned an 830 for about 8 years, played about 8 of them and I honestly can’t say if one is better than the other. Felt pretty boring, wasn’t as open as the older models that I’m used to and despite being very “not insulting” in every way I can think of, didn’t make me wanna play it for more than a few minutes. The older 613H is better in pretty much every way if you’re looking for a Bach style Yamaha.
As for the 813UG, this is the missing link between the 613H and the 830. It was actually marketed in Japan under the Xeno line and shares a lot of its components with both models. I’d definitely be interested in trying one out, it’s the only independent Yamaha bass I haven't played on.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Dang there is one for sale in decent condition for $2400 in Tokyo right now. (Sans snakes and gold)
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]Dang there is one for sale in decent condition for $2400 in Tokyo right now. (Sans snakes and gold)[/quote]
uhhh... wanna buy it for me and ship it over?
uhhh... wanna buy it for me and ship it over?
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
That would be one heck of a present lol! If I wasn't moving in two weeks I'd buy it for myself!
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
[quote="IdoMeshulam"]I’m the owner of the gold plated 8130G that Aidan mentioned. I’ve been looking for one for quite a while and finally found this one on eBay a little over a month ago. It has some crazy mods on it that appear to be factory made (thicker outer slide brace and tuning slide snakes), same with the gold plating, it’s very high quality so I’m pretty sure it was done in house. Absolutely amazing horn! I also own a 613G and despite the 2 horns looking very similar they both have completely different playing characteristics despite feeling very similar to the player.
...I took it to Brad Close for some minor dent removal and according to him, he had to apply a lot more force than usual, said that the metal is not as soft as “normal” Yamahas and seems to be of much higher quality.[/quote] The smaller outer side brace seems to be a bit divisive, as Yamaha lists it as a feature, but I have seen reviews that list it as a complaint.
Looking up stuff on the 8130G horns I saw some mention of K-metal bells that have a "K" stamp on the bell. The metal is supposed to be copied from an alloy used by German maker "Kühnl", I guess Kühnl & Hoyer.
...I took it to Brad Close for some minor dent removal and according to him, he had to apply a lot more force than usual, said that the metal is not as soft as “normal” Yamahas and seems to be of much higher quality.[/quote] The smaller outer side brace seems to be a bit divisive, as Yamaha lists it as a feature, but I have seen reviews that list it as a complaint.
Looking up stuff on the 8130G horns I saw some mention of K-metal bells that have a "K" stamp on the bell. The metal is supposed to be copied from an alloy used by German maker "Kühnl", I guess Kühnl & Hoyer.
- IdoMeshulam
- Posts: 88
- Joined: Aug 20, 2019
I'm pretty sure the slide brace on mine was a special order, all the other 8130's I've seen had a smaller brace like on the 613G.
Mine does not have a "K" stamp on the bell and I've only ever seen one 8130 with that stamp (most likely the same one you've seen). Like Aidan mentioned, I think the softer metal was introduced when the 613H/622 models came out.
Mine does not have a "K" stamp on the bell and I've only ever seen one 8130 with that stamp (most likely the same one you've seen). Like Aidan mentioned, I think the softer metal was introduced when the 613H/622 models came out.
- PSJ
- Posts: 30
- Joined: Mar 29, 2018
I am coming a bit late to this. I played a 613R for 25+ years. It was between the 613 and 613G. The 613R had a red brass bell, the 613G, gold brass. Mine did not come with the Gb slide which I was told was an option. This was ok with me since I much prefer G. The 613R had a narrower slide than the 613G. I finally had to replace the 613R slide due to red rot and all I could get was the 613G slide. I think the 613R played a bit better with the original narrow slide.
In the late '80s I got to sit down and compare the 2 extensively with Johnny Woody who was a Yamaha rep at the time. My 613R and 613G bell sections played very much the same. Really couldn't tell the difference with the same slide. The difference was the 613G slide. Wider and from what we could tell a different lead pipe.
The 613R served me will for a long time in all settings until I found a better horn.
My thoughts.......
In the late '80s I got to sit down and compare the 2 extensively with Johnny Woody who was a Yamaha rep at the time. My 613R and 613G bell sections played very much the same. Really couldn't tell the difference with the same slide. The difference was the 613G slide. Wider and from what we could tell a different lead pipe.
The 613R served me will for a long time in all settings until I found a better horn.
My thoughts.......
- bassclef
- Posts: 337
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I just bought an 813UG. Should make it to Ohio from Japan sometime next week.
In the meantime, except for a few dedicated attempts to make a 6B work for me, I've been playing Yamaha basses for 27 years.
On the left is a YBL-613 which, until 2-3 years ago, had been my daily driver since the late 90's. I bought it new from a music store in Cleveland which had it for a while and it had recently been discontinued for the 613H. When I was trying it out I was there with my then-girlfriend and her parents who were there to purchase two top of the line Buffet clarinets. I liked it and was in the back office with the owner of the store when he mentioned since my parents had just handed him several thousand for my sister's horns (I didn't correct him) and it was a discontinued model, he'd sell it to me for $1400. Done deal.
It has a few differences from almost all other 613's I've seen here, in the wild & on Ebay over the years. It has the lightweight brass "narrow" slide, only one brace between the f-attachment tubing and the tuning slide receiver and the valve casing are brass instead of nickel. I think that means it's an earlier example of this model. It did everything I asked of it in all settings. Nice, easy "commercial" sound but I never found it too hard to steer in the other direction.
It (of course) has the flaky plating on the inner slide stockings and over time developed a couple dozen spots of red rot on the crook and I had just about worn through the lower slide tube where I hold it. I found a tech who would reluctantly rebuild the slide for me, but recommended I purchase an entire 421 slide assembly instead. I was mulling that over when I saw the YBL-621 pop up at a pawn shop in Columbus while browsing eBay during intermission of a weekday matinee I was playing. After the exit music, I hit interstate 71 south and picked it up.
Even though it's in fantastic shape, and quite rare, I wasn't the market for a single valve. I bought it because the slide looked identical to the narrow 613 slide. Other than the model number engraved on the mouthpiece receiver, I was right. Boom - super low mileage 613 replacement slide acquired. Otherwise, I am actually really happy to have the 621, it plays and sounds GREAT. I get pretty excited when I have a job I can do with one valve because this horn is awesome. It might look like a 321 from a distance, but it's much nicer in construction, playability and sound, in my experience.
I was thinking about putting a double vale section on the 621, but I ended up really getting along with a 620G instead. Excellent big band horn, love it with my bone quintet + rhythm section, brass quartet and actually does quite well for me in a large trombone choir. I started bass on a set of dependent valves, so I wasn't terrified of not having a Gb valve. Other than having to relearn a few Thad/Mel bass bone lines in tunes I end up playing somewhat regularly, I don't miss it all that much. Well, other that that super-easy fat pedal F in Gb 2nd. I have found the 620G to be an incredibly versatile sounding horn, once I stopped letting my eyes stop setting my expectations for how it will sound.
I've been in the market for a 613H, but barely missed a couple nice ones which came up recently. Can't wait to see what the 813UG is like.
<ATTACHMENT filename="IMG_0327.jpg" index="1">[attachment=1]IMG_0327.jpg</ATTACHMENT> <ATTACHMENT filename="IMG_0328.jpg" index="0">[attachment=0]IMG_0328.jpg</ATTACHMENT>
In the meantime, except for a few dedicated attempts to make a 6B work for me, I've been playing Yamaha basses for 27 years.
On the left is a YBL-613 which, until 2-3 years ago, had been my daily driver since the late 90's. I bought it new from a music store in Cleveland which had it for a while and it had recently been discontinued for the 613H. When I was trying it out I was there with my then-girlfriend and her parents who were there to purchase two top of the line Buffet clarinets. I liked it and was in the back office with the owner of the store when he mentioned since my parents had just handed him several thousand for my sister's horns (I didn't correct him) and it was a discontinued model, he'd sell it to me for $1400. Done deal.
It has a few differences from almost all other 613's I've seen here, in the wild & on Ebay over the years. It has the lightweight brass "narrow" slide, only one brace between the f-attachment tubing and the tuning slide receiver and the valve casing are brass instead of nickel. I think that means it's an earlier example of this model. It did everything I asked of it in all settings. Nice, easy "commercial" sound but I never found it too hard to steer in the other direction.
It (of course) has the flaky plating on the inner slide stockings and over time developed a couple dozen spots of red rot on the crook and I had just about worn through the lower slide tube where I hold it. I found a tech who would reluctantly rebuild the slide for me, but recommended I purchase an entire 421 slide assembly instead. I was mulling that over when I saw the YBL-621 pop up at a pawn shop in Columbus while browsing eBay during intermission of a weekday matinee I was playing. After the exit music, I hit interstate 71 south and picked it up.
Even though it's in fantastic shape, and quite rare, I wasn't the market for a single valve. I bought it because the slide looked identical to the narrow 613 slide. Other than the model number engraved on the mouthpiece receiver, I was right. Boom - super low mileage 613 replacement slide acquired. Otherwise, I am actually really happy to have the 621, it plays and sounds GREAT. I get pretty excited when I have a job I can do with one valve because this horn is awesome. It might look like a 321 from a distance, but it's much nicer in construction, playability and sound, in my experience.
I was thinking about putting a double vale section on the 621, but I ended up really getting along with a 620G instead. Excellent big band horn, love it with my bone quintet + rhythm section, brass quartet and actually does quite well for me in a large trombone choir. I started bass on a set of dependent valves, so I wasn't terrified of not having a Gb valve. Other than having to relearn a few Thad/Mel bass bone lines in tunes I end up playing somewhat regularly, I don't miss it all that much. Well, other that that super-easy fat pedal F in Gb 2nd. I have found the 620G to be an incredibly versatile sounding horn, once I stopped letting my eyes stop setting my expectations for how it will sound.
I've been in the market for a 613H, but barely missed a couple nice ones which came up recently. Can't wait to see what the 813UG is like.
<ATTACHMENT filename="IMG_0327.jpg" index="1">
- chromebone
- Posts: 454
- Joined: Apr 08, 2018
I was a student of Steve Norrell; I’ve played on his prototype 613h and I have one of my own. His plays and sounds very different from my production horn; he had a very short leadpipe in his; at the time of the development of the 613h, he was playing without a leadpipe on his Bach, I don’t recall him playing without a leadpipe on the Yamaha, but the prototype sounds more open and more Bach-like than my production horn.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
Been enjoying my 613 the last year or so. Great horn, and I wasn't looking for a replacement. However, this Japan-only YBL-630G showed up on ebay and I nabbed it-
It's an odd duck! Just so we're clear, here's a timeline of Yamaha indy bass trombones that were widely distributed-
613
613H
830
However, the 630 is a mashup of the 613 and 613H. It has the slide, gooseneck, tuning slide, and bell of the older model, with the valve section from the 613H. I wonder how long they were produced, and how many- I haven't seen any evidence of them until now.
Anyway, it plays great. It may be a replacement for my 613, as it has a bit better high range and doesn't really seem to suffer in any major way in comparison. Neat!
It's an odd duck! Just so we're clear, here's a timeline of Yamaha indy bass trombones that were widely distributed-
613
613H
830
However, the 630 is a mashup of the 613 and 613H. It has the slide, gooseneck, tuning slide, and bell of the older model, with the valve section from the 613H. I wonder how long they were produced, and how many- I haven't seen any evidence of them until now.
Anyway, it plays great. It may be a replacement for my 613, as it has a bit better high range and doesn't really seem to suffer in any major way in comparison. Neat!
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
I like the look of that horn.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]I like the look of that horn.[/quote]
Yeah, it's simple. I dig it.
Yeah, it's simple. I dig it.
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
Oh wow, that is interesting! No brace on the tuning slide? That gives it a nice open look I'm not used to seeing on Yamaha Trombones.
Does it have the G and Gb slides for the second valve like the 613H? Yamaha definitely made (and continues to make) a wide variety of bass trombones. part of me misses their old 1 piece cork barrel design, but I guess they wanted their professional slides to look more "American" or something.
Does it have the G and Gb slides for the second valve like the 613H? Yamaha definitely made (and continues to make) a wide variety of bass trombones. part of me misses their old 1 piece cork barrel design, but I guess they wanted their professional slides to look more "American" or something.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="tbonesullivan"]Oh wow, that is interesting! No brace on the tuning slide? That gives it a nice open look I'm not used to seeing on Yamaha Trombones.
Does it have the G and Gb slides for the second valve like the 613H? Yamaha definitely made (and continues to make) a wide variety of bass trombones. part of me misses their old 1 piece cork barrel design, but I guess they wanted their professional slides to look more "American" or something.[/quote]
Yes, it came with a G slide and- thank science- the Gb slide as well, or I probably wouldn't have bought it.
Does it have the G and Gb slides for the second valve like the 613H? Yamaha definitely made (and continues to make) a wide variety of bass trombones. part of me misses their old 1 piece cork barrel design, but I guess they wanted their professional slides to look more "American" or something.[/quote]
Yes, it came with a G slide and- thank science- the Gb slide as well, or I probably wouldn't have bought it.
- bassclef
- Posts: 337
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="213959" time="1688175369" user_id="3642">
I like the look of that horn.[/quote]
Yeah, it's simple. I dig it.
</QUOTE>
I was eye-balling that 630 when it was on eBay.
I really appears to be an independent version of the current 620G (which shares a few parts with the 613). The slide looks like the one they sell with the 620G's everywhere but in the USA where they come with a nickel slide instead. Does it have a 9.5" bell with an unsoldered rim? The minimal bracing makes sense too as there are none on the 620G, it's all held together via small braces at various points on the "semi-open" wrap. I can totally see it as a 620G with a 613H valve section.
I'm glad you didn't have any problems with the purchase. I had a bad experience with the same seller a few weeks ago. I bought a Yamaha bass, a week later I finally get a tracking number which turned out to be for an envelope which got delivered a couple states away. I asked what was up with that, he said FedEx lost the horn I bought and gave me a refund. I have access to FedEx premier customer service, and they said he never even created a label with my address. I casually asked the seller earlier this week if that horn turned up, to which he said no but told me "FedEx paid him a warranty" and he bought another one of the same model, took different pics and listed it for more that $1k more than I paid the first time. It's absolutely 100% the exact same horn when comparing some of the blemishes in both listings' photos.
Sorry for the digression. If you decide to move along that 630, I am definitely interested (already have a 613)!
I like the look of that horn.[/quote]
Yeah, it's simple. I dig it.
</QUOTE>
I was eye-balling that 630 when it was on eBay.
I really appears to be an independent version of the current 620G (which shares a few parts with the 613). The slide looks like the one they sell with the 620G's everywhere but in the USA where they come with a nickel slide instead. Does it have a 9.5" bell with an unsoldered rim? The minimal bracing makes sense too as there are none on the 620G, it's all held together via small braces at various points on the "semi-open" wrap. I can totally see it as a 620G with a 613H valve section.
I'm glad you didn't have any problems with the purchase. I had a bad experience with the same seller a few weeks ago. I bought a Yamaha bass, a week later I finally get a tracking number which turned out to be for an envelope which got delivered a couple states away. I asked what was up with that, he said FedEx lost the horn I bought and gave me a refund. I have access to FedEx premier customer service, and they said he never even created a label with my address. I casually asked the seller earlier this week if that horn turned up, to which he said no but told me "FedEx paid him a warranty" and he bought another one of the same model, took different pics and listed it for more that $1k more than I paid the first time. It's absolutely 100% the exact same horn when comparing some of the blemishes in both listings' photos.
Sorry for the digression. If you decide to move along that 630, I am definitely interested (already have a 613)!
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="bassclef"]
I really appears to be an independent version of the current 620G (which shares a few parts with the 613). The slide looks like the one they sell with the 620G's everywhere but in the USA where they come with a nickel slide instead. Does it have a 9.5" bell with an unsoldered rim? The minimal bracing makes sense too as there are none on the 620G, it's all held together via small braces at various points on the "semi-open" wrap. I can totally see it as a 620G with a 613H valve section.
[/quote]
Strange! I had no problems, I only bought this a week and a couple days ago. It came FAST.
It's definitely a 613G in all ways but the valves- it's a 10" rose bell just like the 613G, tuning slides are compatible, slides are identical.
I really appears to be an independent version of the current 620G (which shares a few parts with the 613). The slide looks like the one they sell with the 620G's everywhere but in the USA where they come with a nickel slide instead. Does it have a 9.5" bell with an unsoldered rim? The minimal bracing makes sense too as there are none on the 620G, it's all held together via small braces at various points on the "semi-open" wrap. I can totally see it as a 620G with a 613H valve section.
[/quote]
Strange! I had no problems, I only bought this a week and a couple days ago. It came FAST.
It's definitely a 613G in all ways but the valves- it's a 10" rose bell just like the 613G, tuning slides are compatible, slides are identical.
- bassclef
- Posts: 337
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Burgerbob"]Strange! I had no problems, I only bought this a week and a couple days ago. It came FAST.
It's definitely a 613G in all ways but the valves- it's a 10" rose bell just like the 613G, tuning slides are compatible, slides are identical.[/quote]
Gotcha, thanks for the correction(s). I thought it may have been the same 9.5" gold bell as on the 620G. Cool find, sounds good in your video too!
It's definitely a 613G in all ways but the valves- it's a 10" rose bell just like the 613G, tuning slides are compatible, slides are identical.[/quote]
Gotcha, thanks for the correction(s). I thought it may have been the same 9.5" gold bell as on the 620G. Cool find, sounds good in your video too!
- SquareTube
- Posts: 17
- Joined: Mar 10, 2022
Thanks Aidan, and all, for the info. good to know the early 613 is like an independent 612. I won't cross that one of my list! I'm much more of TR180/62H guy, so the 613H and later are less interesting to me personally. I also note that I prefer valve slides on the "outboard" side of the bell. It interferes less with my neck, and allows me to center the mouthpiece on my chops without angling the horn or putting pressure on my head/jaw. Even the dog leg "kickout" on the 2nd valve can cause me issues with some configurations. There is a tradeoff with the side to side balance, but going a bit less than 90deg on the slide/bell angle gets my wrist closer to lining up under the center of gravity.
I had a chance to play a 612(R?) a few months back, and I was surprised at how much I liked it, and even preferred it to my TR180 in some ways. The valves are better for sure, especially with my Holton rotors being as worn and leaky as they are (I can see bubbles coming up from around the spindle under the cap when pressurized, and around the edge of the plates, too...) Given the solid design and performance of the Yamaha valves, they're a strong contender for replacing the Holton valves rather than plating/refitting. The port configuration is also designed to accommodate the rotors being in the plane of the bell, which is my preference, and would approximate the original layout. That would streamline my project, and it helps that Yamaha parts aren't too expensive. Could be a nice alternative to Instrument Innovations in this instance.
Nate
I had a chance to play a 612(R?) a few months back, and I was surprised at how much I liked it, and even preferred it to my TR180 in some ways. The valves are better for sure, especially with my Holton rotors being as worn and leaky as they are (I can see bubbles coming up from around the spindle under the cap when pressurized, and around the edge of the plates, too...) Given the solid design and performance of the Yamaha valves, they're a strong contender for replacing the Holton valves rather than plating/refitting. The port configuration is also designed to accommodate the rotors being in the plane of the bell, which is my preference, and would approximate the original layout. That would streamline my project, and it helps that Yamaha parts aren't too expensive. Could be a nice alternative to Instrument Innovations in this instance.
Nate
- ndaley9
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Aug 13, 2023
Just remember, never trust anything Ido says... ;)
I kid. The yamahas with the snakes on them are definitely the best!
I kid. The yamahas with the snakes on them are definitely the best!
- davidk
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Sep 05, 2023
Great info!
Love the comparisons and additional input from the community!!!
Love the comparisons and additional input from the community!!!
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
Finally, after 4(!) attempts to buy one one from Japan, the 5th try was the charm. I got my own 8130!
As you can see, the horn is in nearly immaculate shape. It was obviously played a bit, but either babied or just not used much.
It's hard to put into words just how much better this is than any Xeno bass I've played- the 835D is the only thing that has come close whatsoever, and it's a totally different vibe in any case.
I currently have 822 valve caps on, just for the bling... we'll see if it plays better this way too.
The original case is also great, much like the Xeno cases but just... cooler.
This horn also feels much more solid than other Yamahas. The 6XX horns are very light, but they feel ALMOST flimsy in a way, especially at high dynamics. Xenos feel soft, because they literally are- those bells and braces are like putty! This horn is like any boutique in quality.
Notice the mouthpiece engagement- the Hammond there has a line farther up the shank where it fits into Xenos.
For a Gb slide, I use a stock Bach 50B F slide- no G tuning for me!
As you can see, the horn is in nearly immaculate shape. It was obviously played a bit, but either babied or just not used much.
It's hard to put into words just how much better this is than any Xeno bass I've played- the 835D is the only thing that has come close whatsoever, and it's a totally different vibe in any case.
I currently have 822 valve caps on, just for the bling... we'll see if it plays better this way too.
The original case is also great, much like the Xeno cases but just... cooler.
This horn also feels much more solid than other Yamahas. The 6XX horns are very light, but they feel ALMOST flimsy in a way, especially at high dynamics. Xenos feel soft, because they literally are- those bells and braces are like putty! This horn is like any boutique in quality.
Notice the mouthpiece engagement- the Hammond there has a line farther up the shank where it fits into Xenos.
For a Gb slide, I use a stock Bach 50B F slide- no G tuning for me!
- hornbuilder
- Posts: 1384
- Joined: May 02, 2018
Looks like the old 613 closed wrap, with a new bell and handslide?
- bassclef
- Posts: 337
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
NICE.
Might have the 613 leadpipe maybe? I know that one takes a "normal" amount of shank.
Might have the 613 leadpipe maybe? I know that one takes a "normal" amount of shank.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="hornbuilder"]Looks like the old 613 closed wrap, with a new bell and handslide?[/quote]
Yes, it's the same general design but every part is better. I'm not kidding- even the tuning slide fitment is improved. Should have mentioned the trim rings on everything, something Yamaha didn't do at the time!
[quote="bassclef"]NICE.
Might have the 613 leadpipe maybe? I know that one takes a "normal" amount of shank.[/quote]
My 613s and 630G (I've had 3 of those earlier horns!) all took the mouthpiece a bit more than usual, like the modern Xenos.
[quote="Tbarh"]Aidan,How old (approximately) is it?[/quote]
Ido would know better than me, but I believe these are from the late '80s. The serials are specific to the Custom line, and of course Yamaha serials are not public anyway.
Yes, it's the same general design but every part is better. I'm not kidding- even the tuning slide fitment is improved. Should have mentioned the trim rings on everything, something Yamaha didn't do at the time!
[quote="bassclef"]NICE.
Might have the 613 leadpipe maybe? I know that one takes a "normal" amount of shank.[/quote]
My 613s and 630G (I've had 3 of those earlier horns!) all took the mouthpiece a bit more than usual, like the modern Xenos.
[quote="Tbarh"]Aidan,How old (approximately) is it?[/quote]
Ido would know better than me, but I believe these are from the late '80s. The serials are specific to the Custom line, and of course Yamaha serials are not public anyway.
- bassclef
- Posts: 337
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="bassclef" post_id="246499" time="1719516501" user_id="114">
NICE.
Might have the 613 leadpipe maybe? I know that one takes a "normal" amount of shank.[/quote]
My 613s and 630G (I've had 3 of those earlier horns!) all took the mouthpiece a bit more than usual, like the modern Xenos.</QUOTE>
Interesting, my narrow 613 slide & 621 slide (both pictured above in this thread) and modern 620G slide all take the "normal" amount of shank, while my 613H receiver does the deep Xeno 830 thing.
I actually just measured the distance between the black rings on the shank of one of my main GB's I use with all of the above and they're exactly 3/16" apart
NICE.
Might have the 613 leadpipe maybe? I know that one takes a "normal" amount of shank.[/quote]
My 613s and 630G (I've had 3 of those earlier horns!) all took the mouthpiece a bit more than usual, like the modern Xenos.</QUOTE>
Interesting, my narrow 613 slide & 621 slide (both pictured above in this thread) and modern 620G slide all take the "normal" amount of shank, while my 613H receiver does the deep Xeno 830 thing.
I actually just measured the distance between the black rings on the shank of one of my main GB's I use with all of the above and they're exactly 3/16" apart
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="bassclef"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="246511" time="1719520901" user_id="3131">
My 613s and 630G (I've had 3 of those earlier horns!) all took the mouthpiece a bit more than usual, like the modern Xenos.[/quote]
Interesting, my narrow 613 slide & 621 slide (both pictured above in this thread) and modern 620G slide all take the "normal" amount of shank, while my 613H receiver does the deep Xeno 830 thing.
I actually just measured the distance between the black rings on the shank of one of my main GB's I use with all of the above and they're exactly 3/16" apart
</QUOTE>
I will mention that all three of my earlier 6XX series had wide slides- I think the narrow ones were different.\
[quote="bassclef"]Also, is that 8130 bell rim soldered or no?[/quote]
Yes!
My 613s and 630G (I've had 3 of those earlier horns!) all took the mouthpiece a bit more than usual, like the modern Xenos.[/quote]
Interesting, my narrow 613 slide & 621 slide (both pictured above in this thread) and modern 620G slide all take the "normal" amount of shank, while my 613H receiver does the deep Xeno 830 thing.
I actually just measured the distance between the black rings on the shank of one of my main GB's I use with all of the above and they're exactly 3/16" apart
</QUOTE>
I will mention that all three of my earlier 6XX series had wide slides- I think the narrow ones were different.\
[quote="bassclef"]Also, is that 8130 bell rim soldered or no?[/quote]
Yes!
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
[quote="bassclef"]Interesting, my narrow 613 slide & 621 slide (both pictured above in this thread) and modern 620G slide all take the "normal" amount of shank, while my 613H receiver does the deep Xeno 830 thing.[/quote] The 613H and 830 use the exact same leadpipe: "D2530700 M'PIPE ASS'Y YBL813UG"
In the parts catalog there is also a YBL-613HS (silver) and the YBL-613HEL, which I have no idea about.
Yamaha does love to use the same parts for a lot of trombones. The D0930701 is for the 412G, 611, 612, 620, and others.
The YBL-613 and 613R are listed as having leadpipe D0930700, but the D0930701 is listed as an "alternate part" in the parts catalog, which is interesting. I just wish the parts catalog covered the Japanese models as well.
In the parts catalog there is also a YBL-613HS (silver) and the YBL-613HEL, which I have no idea about.
Yamaha does love to use the same parts for a lot of trombones. The D0930701 is for the 412G, 611, 612, 620, and others.
The YBL-613 and 613R are listed as having leadpipe D0930700, but the D0930701 is listed as an "alternate part" in the parts catalog, which is interesting. I just wish the parts catalog covered the Japanese models as well.
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
[quote="hornbuilder"]Looks like the old 613 closed wrap, with a new bell and handslide?[/quote] very interestingly, the parts diagram for the YBL-613 bass on the catalog website has YBL-8130G all over it....
<LINK_TEXT text="https://parts-search.yamaha.co.jp/html/ ... _id=104568">https://parts-search.yamaha.co.jp/html/WIND_ENGLISH/orders/Product/Model/model_e.php?model_id=104568</LINK_TEXT>
<LINK_TEXT text="https://parts-search.yamaha.co.jp/html/ ... _id=104568">https://parts-search.yamaha.co.jp/html/WIND_ENGLISH/orders/Product/Model/model_e.php?model_id=104568</LINK_TEXT>
- hornbuilder
- Posts: 1384
- Joined: May 02, 2018
It is interesting the number of "order stop" call outs on those parts lists
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
[quote="hornbuilder"]It is interesting the number of "order stop" call outs on those parts lists[/quote] Yeah, so I guess I better not break too many pieces on my YBL-612 RII. I mean I guess there's a limit to how long they are going to make some of the parts that aren't used on any trombones anymore.
There is one thing of interest that I noted recently. Apparently for bass trombones (and probably tenor) Yamaha has discontinued all lacquered nickel silver rotary valve covers, and they are only available in silver plate.
For a Yamaha 830, the original D2542010 VALVE CASING CAP YBL813UG has been replaced with W2584400 BL613HS ROTARY CAP SI-PTD.
The D8A41250 LEVER ADJUSTING PLATE SL882U-2 pad that goes on the F trigger has been replaced with D7D41250 LEVER ADJUSTING PLATE SI-PTD YSL882US2.
And, the D9D41250 E FLAT LEVER ADJUSTING PLATE YBL-830 has been replaced with WP921800 BL830 LEVER2 FINGER PLATE ASS'Y SI-PTD
I didn't know this when I posted about my YBL-830 having silver plated parts at the Bass Trombone Facebook group, and one person said "there is a transition at Yamaha, that it is not allowed to use lacquer on nickel silver parts were a player could be in contact with. Has to do with European rules". Not sure why this doesn't affect the cork barrels. I checked on the YBL-835, and sure enough the Gb paddle is listed as "BL835 LEVER 2 ADJUSTING PLATE SET SI-PTD", so this appears to be true. Also on the trombones that don't have the "pad" on the F-lever, which is actually the same lever for most trombones, they have a silver plated lever.
There is one thing of interest that I noted recently. Apparently for bass trombones (and probably tenor) Yamaha has discontinued all lacquered nickel silver rotary valve covers, and they are only available in silver plate.
For a Yamaha 830, the original D2542010 VALVE CASING CAP YBL813UG has been replaced with W2584400 BL613HS ROTARY CAP SI-PTD.
The D8A41250 LEVER ADJUSTING PLATE SL882U-2 pad that goes on the F trigger has been replaced with D7D41250 LEVER ADJUSTING PLATE SI-PTD YSL882US2.
And, the D9D41250 E FLAT LEVER ADJUSTING PLATE YBL-830 has been replaced with WP921800 BL830 LEVER2 FINGER PLATE ASS'Y SI-PTD
I didn't know this when I posted about my YBL-830 having silver plated parts at the Bass Trombone Facebook group, and one person said "there is a transition at Yamaha, that it is not allowed to use lacquer on nickel silver parts were a player could be in contact with. Has to do with European rules". Not sure why this doesn't affect the cork barrels. I checked on the YBL-835, and sure enough the Gb paddle is listed as "BL835 LEVER 2 ADJUSTING PLATE SET SI-PTD", so this appears to be true. Also on the trombones that don't have the "pad" on the F-lever, which is actually the same lever for most trombones, they have a silver plated lever.
- hornbuilder
- Posts: 1384
- Joined: May 02, 2018
Many of the "order stop" parts are used on current production horns though ??
Yes. Europe is instigating a ban on nickel, which is already having an impact on brass instrument manufacture. One maker (can't recall the name) recently won an award for producing a trumpet that contained no nickel or lead.
Yes. Europe is instigating a ban on nickel, which is already having an impact on brass instrument manufacture. One maker (can't recall the name) recently won an award for producing a trumpet that contained no nickel or lead.
- SackbutRoyale
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Apr 17, 2020
[quote="GabrielRice"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="203941" time="1678038142" user_id="3131">
The 622 is Yeo's first design with Yamaha, and is largely similar to the 613H in many ways- it's again a Bach 50 copy with perhaps? the same slide from the 613H, but a yellow bell.[/quote]
My question is: with the 822, and the 835, are they BOTH dependant valve? Or is one independent?</QUOTE>
The 622 is Yeo's first design with Yamaha, and is largely similar to the 613H in many ways- it's again a Bach 50 copy with perhaps? the same slide from the 613H, but a yellow bell.[/quote]
My question is: with the 822, and the 835, are they BOTH dependant valve? Or is one independent?</QUOTE>
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="SackbutRoyale"]
My question is: with the 822, and the 835, are they BOTH dependant valve? Or is one independent?[/quote]
822 is dependent, 835 is independent.
My question is: with the 822, and the 835, are they BOTH dependant valve? Or is one independent?[/quote]
822 is dependent, 835 is independent.
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
[quote="hornbuilder"]Many of the "order stop" parts are used on current production horns though ??
Yes. Europe is instigating a ban on nickel, which is already having an impact on brass instrument manufacture. One maker (can't recall the name) recently won an award for producing a trumpet that contained no nickel or lead.[/quote] All of those I think have been replaced with Silver plated versions. Navigating the parts catalog can be annoying sometimes, as they don't always link to the replacement parts.
I'm not sure I understand how plating things with silver is a solution though, as that most likely is going to wear through. What about the slide braces and cork barrels? Those certainly are not silver plated on my 830 bass.
I also did notice that the levers on my Bach 36 and 42, which are recent, have started to tarnish, so they are also plated, but the hand grip definitely isn't.
Yes. Europe is instigating a ban on nickel, which is already having an impact on brass instrument manufacture. One maker (can't recall the name) recently won an award for producing a trumpet that contained no nickel or lead.[/quote] All of those I think have been replaced with Silver plated versions. Navigating the parts catalog can be annoying sometimes, as they don't always link to the replacement parts.
I'm not sure I understand how plating things with silver is a solution though, as that most likely is going to wear through. What about the slide braces and cork barrels? Those certainly are not silver plated on my 830 bass.
I also did notice that the levers on my Bach 36 and 42, which are recent, have started to tarnish, so they are also plated, but the hand grip definitely isn't.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="hornbuilder"]Yes. Europe is instigating a ban on nickel, which is already having an impact on brass instrument manufacture.[/quote]
Is this "nickel ban" an attempt to comply with the 30-year-old "Nickel Directive?"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_Directive
If so,
Is this "nickel ban" an attempt to comply with the 30-year-old "Nickel Directive?"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_Directive
If so,
- What took them so long?
- What is the scope of the ban?
- Why does it apply to musical instruments?
- Is there a plausible / reasonable scientific justification for this ban, or is the sky just falling throughout Europe?
- Were the Europeans just jealous of California's Proposition 65 which requires (useless and ineffective) warnings on pretty much everything?
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
[quote="Posaunus"]Is this "nickel ban" an attempt to comply with the 30-year-old "Nickel Directive?"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_Directive
If so,
With nickel however, I am somewhat baffled, and honestly think it's more than a big of over-reaching. There are many that also have contact dermatitis reactions to brass and other metals, but I think Nickel is the most common, with 10% of the population estimated to be susceptible to nickel contact dermatitis.
This however takes prolonged contact, and I would think that things like rings, earrings, chains, etc would be much more likely to cause this than lacquered nickel instruments. Silver plating can be worn through, which is why I don't see how it's a "solution" while lacquer isn't.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_Directive
If so,
- What took them so long?
- What is the scope of the ban?
- Why does it apply to musical instruments?
- Is there a plausible / reasonable scientific justification for this ban, or is the sky just falling throughout Europe?
- Were the Europeans just jealous of California's Proposition 65 which requires (useless and ineffective) warnings on pretty much everything?
With nickel however, I am somewhat baffled, and honestly think it's more than a big of over-reaching. There are many that also have contact dermatitis reactions to brass and other metals, but I think Nickel is the most common, with 10% of the population estimated to be susceptible to nickel contact dermatitis.
This however takes prolonged contact, and I would think that things like rings, earrings, chains, etc would be much more likely to cause this than lacquered nickel instruments. Silver plating can be worn through, which is why I don't see how it's a "solution" while lacquer isn't.
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
[quote="Bach5G"]Nickel and nickel plated guitar strings?[/quote] I have no idea what they are going to do about that. A lot of alloys of stainless steel also contain some amount of nickel. The frets on guitars are made using nickel and copper. Nickel is almost ubiquitous in the musical industry. It's used as plating on a lot of hardware, cases, etc etc. The other option? Chrome, which is an environmental nightmare.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
I don't like chrome plating on brass. The metals are so dissimilar that you can get flaking.
We use silver plating a lot on musical instruments.
In terms of similarity, nickel and cobalt are really similar. And cobalt is sometimes used in stainless steel alloys.
For jewelry, platinum is frequently used. And it can be a VERY thin coating to save on cost.
We use silver plating a lot on musical instruments.
In terms of similarity, nickel and cobalt are really similar. And cobalt is sometimes used in stainless steel alloys.
For jewelry, platinum is frequently used. And it can be a VERY thin coating to save on cost.
- Finetales
- Posts: 1482
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Having owned some chrome-plated drum corps bugles, I very much hope chrome plating doesn't become the new standard. Nothing like risking lacerations bad enough to send you to the ER if you so much as accidentally brush up against any flaking.
- Pieter
- Posts: 20
- Joined: Aug 20, 2023
I can confirm that on a new ybl-620G both valve paddles and valve covers are silver plated. Has a nice feel to it. Although I do not usually touch my valve covers often.
The other parts where you hold the instrument are what appears to be lacquered nickle silver. Significantly darker colour than the silver parts. The gooseneck is lacquered brass. So, this could be another reason than a EU-directive.
It is sold as YBL-620GE instead of YBL-620G. No idea what the E means. But the horn is stamped 'BL-620G'. The box is marked 'lead free solder', but they have been doing that for 20 years.
The other parts where you hold the instrument are what appears to be lacquered nickle silver. Significantly darker colour than the silver parts. The gooseneck is lacquered brass. So, this could be another reason than a EU-directive.
It is sold as YBL-620GE instead of YBL-620G. No idea what the E means. But the horn is stamped 'BL-620G'. The box is marked 'lead free solder', but they have been doing that for 20 years.
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
[quote="Pieter"]I can confirm that on a new ybl-620G both valve paddles and valve covers are silver plated. Has a nice feel to it. Although I do not usually touch my valve covers often.
The other parts where you hold the instrument are what appears to be lacquered nickle silver. Significantly darker colour than the silver parts. The gooseneck is lacquered brass. So, this could be another reason than a EU-directive.
It is sold as YBL-620GE instead of YBL-620G. No idea what the E means. But the horn is stamped 'BL-620G'. The box is marked 'lead free solder', but they have been doing that for 20 years.[/quote] "E" could be "Europe". I do know that the 830 I purchased in the U.S. market two years ago had silver plated paddles and valve covers. At first I thought they were aluminum or something, but no, just silver plated.
The other parts where you hold the instrument are what appears to be lacquered nickle silver. Significantly darker colour than the silver parts. The gooseneck is lacquered brass. So, this could be another reason than a EU-directive.
It is sold as YBL-620GE instead of YBL-620G. No idea what the E means. But the horn is stamped 'BL-620G'. The box is marked 'lead free solder', but they have been doing that for 20 years.[/quote] "E" could be "Europe". I do know that the 830 I purchased in the U.S. market two years ago had silver plated paddles and valve covers. At first I thought they were aluminum or something, but no, just silver plated.
- sirisobhakya
- Posts: 445
- Joined: Jun 11, 2018
E in the model name GE seems to indicate “export” since in Thailand we have those models also (421GE, 620GE).The main difference seems to be nickel silver slide (JDM models have brass slide).
My 830 purchased in 2016 (and seemed to be sitting in the shop since around 2014) also has silver-plated brass Gb paddle.
My 830 purchased in 2016 (and seemed to be sitting in the shop since around 2014) also has silver-plated brass Gb paddle.
- Chronos91
- Posts: 64
- Joined: Jul 10, 2022
[quote="BGuttman"]I don't like chrome plating on brass. The metals are so dissimilar that you can get flaking.
We use silver plating a lot on musical instruments.
In terms of similarity, nickel and cobalt are really similar. And cobalt is sometimes used in stainless steel alloys.
For jewelry, platinum is frequently used. And it can be a VERY thin coating to save on cost.[/quote]
When chrome plating brass, do they not do a nickel strike or anything to aid adhesion? Process difficulties aside, I don't think I like the idea of decorative chrome on brass instruments anyway.
We use silver plating a lot on musical instruments.
In terms of similarity, nickel and cobalt are really similar. And cobalt is sometimes used in stainless steel alloys.
For jewelry, platinum is frequently used. And it can be a VERY thin coating to save on cost.[/quote]
When chrome plating brass, do they not do a nickel strike or anything to aid adhesion? Process difficulties aside, I don't think I like the idea of decorative chrome on brass instruments anyway.
- atopper333
- Posts: 377
- Joined: Mar 09, 2022
If I remember correctly, a lot of Holton handgrips are chrome plated…could be wrong on that, but they definitely don’t appear nickel…
- DougHulme
- Posts: 558
- Joined: Apr 27, 2018
Anyone know where there is a YBL621 single plug going for sale?... Doug
- JohntheTheologian
- Posts: 159
- Joined: Apr 12, 2018
My old Blessing B88, has a chrome handgrip, I believe.
I've loaned it to a friend for a Christmas gig at church-- his horn needs repair-- so I can't physically check it, but if I remember correctly it does.
Mine is wearing through a bit. The whole finish on that old horn is actually a bit challenged.
I've loaned it to a friend for a Christmas gig at church-- his horn needs repair-- so I can't physically check it, but if I remember correctly it does.
Mine is wearing through a bit. The whole finish on that old horn is actually a bit challenged.
- greenbean
- Posts: 1958
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I also have a Yamaha 8130 bass. Awesome!
I recently ordered a replacement 2nd valve paddle (from 620G). It's silver-plated brass.
I recently ordered a replacement 2nd valve paddle (from 620G). It's silver-plated brass.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="greenbean"]I also have a Yamaha 8130 bass. Awesome!
I recently ordered a replacement 2nd valve paddle (from 620G). It's silver-plated brass.[/quote]
Nice, digging yours? Mine is one of my easiest horns to play, I really love it.
I recently ordered a replacement 2nd valve paddle (from 620G). It's silver-plated brass.[/quote]
Nice, digging yours? Mine is one of my easiest horns to play, I really love it.