KIng 3B Silver Sonic: bell weight
- Trombonic
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Mar 09, 2023
Hello trombone friends!
I recently purchased a 1964 H.N. White 3B Silver Sonic. What a nice sounding horn!
But I was a little surprised by the weight of the bell.
It is (without the tuning slide) 617 grams! Slide is 220 grams.
I had a 1970 Silver Sonic and a 1967 SS twenty years ago and I can´t recall they were THAT bell heavy.
I am sure getting old and weaker so I am wondering: is it me or is this a very massive bell.
Maybe some Silver Sonic owners can help and weigh their bell?
My theses is they got lighter over the years.
Thanks!
Torsten
I recently purchased a 1964 H.N. White 3B Silver Sonic. What a nice sounding horn!
But I was a little surprised by the weight of the bell.
It is (without the tuning slide) 617 grams! Slide is 220 grams.
I had a 1970 Silver Sonic and a 1967 SS twenty years ago and I can´t recall they were THAT bell heavy.
I am sure getting old and weaker so I am wondering: is it me or is this a very massive bell.
Maybe some Silver Sonic owners can help and weigh their bell?
My theses is they got lighter over the years.
Thanks!
Torsten
- CharlieB
- Posts: 434
- Joined: Mar 29, 2018
My horns gain weight as they age.
I know this because the older I get, the heavier they feel.
I know this because the older I get, the heavier they feel.
- IdoMeshulam
- Posts: 88
- Joined: Aug 20, 2019
1968 3BSS: 605g
1992 3BSS Anniversary: 595g
1992 3BSS Anniversary: 595g
- Trombonic
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Mar 09, 2023
Thank you very much, so mine seems to be just a little overweighted. @Ido: I really adore your trombone playing even when you are playing on other horns than the SS ;-)
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
As the detritus from decades of Chinese take out and sugar builds up, the bells should gain mass. So it stands to figure that the newer bells would be lighter.
- IdoMeshulam
- Posts: 88
- Joined: Aug 20, 2019
[quote="Trombonic"]Thank you very much, so mine seems to be just a little overweighted. @Ido: I really adore your trombone playing even when you are playing on other horns than the SS ;-)[/quote]
Thanks! I forgot to mention, both of my 3B's don't have any lacquer on the bell flare so that might be part of the reason to why they're a little lighter than yours.
Thanks! I forgot to mention, both of my 3B's don't have any lacquer on the bell flare so that might be part of the reason to why they're a little lighter than yours.
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
Sterling silver is 1.228 times as heavy as brass.
- Tbarh
- Posts: 505
- Joined: Aug 16, 2018
[quote="brassmedic"]Sterling silver is 1.228 times as heavy as brass.[/quote]
Which means You have to make them really thin which is difficult ,i assume !
Which means You have to make them really thin which is difficult ,i assume !
- HermanGerman
- Posts: 127
- Joined: Oct 29, 2021
I heard or read somewhere that it is not easy to built (or solder?) a silver bell.
- SteveFoote
- Posts: 36
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I can't comment on total bell weight as I have no way to measure such a small amount. However, I think I can add some perspective to your question.
My 3B SS is 1965 vintage.
We have discussed weights of various component parts previously and gotten sometimes wild variations. Everyone's scales apparently aren't the same. Assuming the numbers previously posted are correct your bell section is about 15 - 20 grams heavier than the others. Putting that in a relatable term, that is equal to about 3 tablespoons of ground coffee. I'm pretty sure I could not tell the difference in this amount of weight.
It seems your real question pertains to balance rather than actual weight. Both the tuning slide / counterweight and the slide section contribute to balance issues.
Now for my observation - My 3B SS is extremely nose heavy. As I've gotten older this has become much more noticeable as my wrist started complaining about having to hold the horn. The only horn I can compare it to is my Old Opera. Since it is larger I am guessing that it is heavier. My wrist gets along much better with the Olds because it actually balances in the "V" of my hand.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it seems to be you that has changed and not the horn.
My 3B SS is 1965 vintage.
We have discussed weights of various component parts previously and gotten sometimes wild variations. Everyone's scales apparently aren't the same. Assuming the numbers previously posted are correct your bell section is about 15 - 20 grams heavier than the others. Putting that in a relatable term, that is equal to about 3 tablespoons of ground coffee. I'm pretty sure I could not tell the difference in this amount of weight.
It seems your real question pertains to balance rather than actual weight. Both the tuning slide / counterweight and the slide section contribute to balance issues.
Now for my observation - My 3B SS is extremely nose heavy. As I've gotten older this has become much more noticeable as my wrist started complaining about having to hold the horn. The only horn I can compare it to is my Old Opera. Since it is larger I am guessing that it is heavier. My wrist gets along much better with the Olds because it actually balances in the "V" of my hand.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it seems to be you that has changed and not the horn.
- ckyirong
- Posts: 8
- Joined: May 23, 2023
[quote="IdoMeshulam"]<QUOTE author="Trombonic" post_id="204359" time="1678431650" user_id="16377">
Thank you very much, so mine seems to be just a little overweighted. @Ido: I really adore your trombone playing even when you are playing on other horns than the SS ;-)[/quote]
Thanks! I forgot to mention, both of my 3B's don't have any lacquer on the bell flare so that might be part of the reason to why they're a little lighter than yours.
</QUOTE>
Ido, what's the benefit of stripping the lacquer and/or why do you play on non-lacquered bell flare? Moreover, any reason why you don't play on a 3b ss? The reason why I ask is because I'm currently deciding between a regular 3b (early 70s) vs a 3b ss (late 60s). Thanks- huge fan of you playing!
Thank you very much, so mine seems to be just a little overweighted. @Ido: I really adore your trombone playing even when you are playing on other horns than the SS ;-)[/quote]
Thanks! I forgot to mention, both of my 3B's don't have any lacquer on the bell flare so that might be part of the reason to why they're a little lighter than yours.
</QUOTE>
Ido, what's the benefit of stripping the lacquer and/or why do you play on non-lacquered bell flare? Moreover, any reason why you don't play on a 3b ss? The reason why I ask is because I'm currently deciding between a regular 3b (early 70s) vs a 3b ss (late 60s). Thanks- huge fan of you playing!
- hornbuilder
- Posts: 1384
- Joined: May 02, 2018
[quote="HermanGerman"]I heard or read somewhere that it is not easy to built (or solder?) a silver bell.[/quote]
Sterling silver acts as a very effective heat sink when soldering. So it takes more heat, but other than that, it behaves pretty much the same as brass in assembly.
Sterling silver acts as a very effective heat sink when soldering. So it takes more heat, but other than that, it behaves pretty much the same as brass in assembly.
- Cmillar
- Posts: 439
- Joined: Apr 24, 2018
My King 2B SS feels about the same weight as my Conn 88H !
...but, it's worth it!
...but, it's worth it!
- IdoMeshulam
- Posts: 88
- Joined: Aug 20, 2019
[quote="ckyirong"]Ido, what's the benefit of stripping the lacquer and/or why do you play on non-lacquered bell flare? Moreover, any reason why you don't play on a 3b ss? The reason why I ask is because I'm currently deciding between a regular 3b (early 70s) vs a 3b ss (late 60s). Thanks- huge fan of you playing![/quote]
I do play on a 3BSS, I have 3 of them! I had a 3B with a yellow brass bell about 2 years ago but I ended up selling it, the Silversonics can just take more and I find that even when pushed really hard they maintain their core and pitch center very well without breaking up. I also dig the slightly more complex sound of the heavier sterling bells.
All 3 of my Silversonics are unlacquered (my 1992 anniversary came like that from the factory) and so was my yellow brass 3B. I found that by removing the lacquer you get a slightly wider sound with more overtones and quicker response (which is especially useful on the Silversonics as they can sometimes feel a little heavy and slow behind the wheel). The lacquer on the Kings is extremely thick so it really makes a difference when you strip them.
I do play on a 3BSS, I have 3 of them! I had a 3B with a yellow brass bell about 2 years ago but I ended up selling it, the Silversonics can just take more and I find that even when pushed really hard they maintain their core and pitch center very well without breaking up. I also dig the slightly more complex sound of the heavier sterling bells.
All 3 of my Silversonics are unlacquered (my 1992 anniversary came like that from the factory) and so was my yellow brass 3B. I found that by removing the lacquer you get a slightly wider sound with more overtones and quicker response (which is especially useful on the Silversonics as they can sometimes feel a little heavy and slow behind the wheel). The lacquer on the Kings is extremely thick so it really makes a difference when you strip them.
- ckyirong
- Posts: 8
- Joined: May 23, 2023
[quote="IdoMeshulam"]<QUOTE author="ckyirong" post_id="212601" time="1686773241" user_id="16640">
Ido, what's the benefit of stripping the lacquer and/or why do you play on non-lacquered bell flare? Moreover, any reason why you don't play on a 3b ss? The reason why I ask is because I'm currently deciding between a regular 3b (early 70s) vs a 3b ss (late 60s). Thanks- huge fan of you playing![/quote]
I do play on a 3BSS, I have 3 of them! I had a 3B with a yellow brass bell about 2 years ago but I ended up selling it, the Silversonics can just take more and I find that even when I push really hard they maintain the core and pitch center very well without breaking up. I also dig the slightly more complex sound of the heavier sterling bells.
All 3 of my Silversonics are unlacquered (my 1992 anniversary came like that from the factory) and so was my yellow brass 3B. I found that by removing the lacquer you get a slightly wider sound with more overtones and quicker response (which is especially useful on the Silversonics as they can sometimes feel a little heavy and slow behind the wheel). The lacquer on the Kings is extremely thick so it really makes a difference when you strip them.
</QUOTE>
Ahhh interesting…I see, that’s good to know! Currently deciding between a 3b and a 3b ss…I mainly play jazz in settings where I’m leading melodys and improvising (small groups) or with 1 or 2 other horns. Moreover, a bunch of Latin and Brazilian music too.
In what setting(s) do you play a 3b ss typically? Moreover, is it your most frequently used horn or is the BAC (assuming from your picture) your go-to? Thanks!
Ido, what's the benefit of stripping the lacquer and/or why do you play on non-lacquered bell flare? Moreover, any reason why you don't play on a 3b ss? The reason why I ask is because I'm currently deciding between a regular 3b (early 70s) vs a 3b ss (late 60s). Thanks- huge fan of you playing![/quote]
I do play on a 3BSS, I have 3 of them! I had a 3B with a yellow brass bell about 2 years ago but I ended up selling it, the Silversonics can just take more and I find that even when I push really hard they maintain the core and pitch center very well without breaking up. I also dig the slightly more complex sound of the heavier sterling bells.
All 3 of my Silversonics are unlacquered (my 1992 anniversary came like that from the factory) and so was my yellow brass 3B. I found that by removing the lacquer you get a slightly wider sound with more overtones and quicker response (which is especially useful on the Silversonics as they can sometimes feel a little heavy and slow behind the wheel). The lacquer on the Kings is extremely thick so it really makes a difference when you strip them.
</QUOTE>
Ahhh interesting…I see, that’s good to know! Currently deciding between a 3b and a 3b ss…I mainly play jazz in settings where I’m leading melodys and improvising (small groups) or with 1 or 2 other horns. Moreover, a bunch of Latin and Brazilian music too.
In what setting(s) do you play a 3b ss typically? Moreover, is it your most frequently used horn or is the BAC (assuming from your picture) your go-to? Thanks!
- IdoMeshulam
- Posts: 88
- Joined: Aug 20, 2019
I use the BAC most of the time, pretty much for all of my jazz playing or in big bands where I have to do a bunch of soloing. If I play lead in a big band and the book doesn't have a lot of solos I'd bring the Silversonic. I also use it for horn section work, trad playing, funk/pop etc... Other than that I also have a 3B SS valve bone that I use for jazz and a custom made double valve independent 3B SS that I use for crazier things.
Generally speaking, when choosing a horn I like to go for something that balances my own natural qualities as a player. For example, If you're naturally a brighter player I'd go for a darker horn like the Silversonic and vice versa... I naturally have a very bright sound so that's why I play on heavier darker horns, even on my "brighter" setups. It's all about balance at the end.
Generally speaking, when choosing a horn I like to go for something that balances my own natural qualities as a player. For example, If you're naturally a brighter player I'd go for a darker horn like the Silversonic and vice versa... I naturally have a very bright sound so that's why I play on heavier darker horns, even on my "brighter" setups. It's all about balance at the end.
- ckyirong
- Posts: 8
- Joined: May 23, 2023
[quote="IdoMeshulam"]I use the BAC most of the time, pretty much for all of my jazz playing or in big bands where I have to do a bunch of soloing. If I play lead in a big band and the book doesn't have a lot of solos I'd bring the Silversonic. I also use it for horn section work, trad playing, funk/pop etc... Other than that I also have a 3B SS valve bone that I use for jazz and a custom made double valve independent 3B SS that I use for crazier things.
Generally speaking, when choosing a horn I like to go for something that balances my own natural qualities as a player. For example, If you're naturally a brighter player I'd go for a darker horn like the Silversonic and vice versa... I naturally have a very bright sound so that's why I play on heavier darker horns, even on my "brighter" setups. It's all about balance at the end.[/quote]
Ahhh gotchya! Any particular reason why the BAC is chosen over the 3b ss for jazz and heavier improv-based settings?
Generally speaking, when choosing a horn I like to go for something that balances my own natural qualities as a player. For example, If you're naturally a brighter player I'd go for a darker horn like the Silversonic and vice versa... I naturally have a very bright sound so that's why I play on heavier darker horns, even on my "brighter" setups. It's all about balance at the end.[/quote]
Ahhh gotchya! Any particular reason why the BAC is chosen over the 3b ss for jazz and heavier improv-based settings?
- IdoMeshulam
- Posts: 88
- Joined: Aug 20, 2019
It's just scary good! Almost like having a cheat code. Moving through the partials and just the way it slots feels like you're on rails, my friend described it as the closest thing you can get to playing piano on trombone, the distances between the partials stay the same even up high (as opposed to a more traditional setup where they get narrower the higher you go). All while maintaining a dark core and super quick response no matter what dynamic you're playing. If I didn't have the BAC I'd probably play the Silversonic full time but man, that BAC is magic!
- ckyirong
- Posts: 8
- Joined: May 23, 2023
[quote="IdoMeshulam"]It's just scary good! Almost like having a cheat code. Moving through the partials and just the way it slots feels like you're on rails, my friend described it as the closest thing you can get to playing piano on trombone, the distances between the partials stay the same even up high (as opposed to a more traditional setup where they get narrower the higher you go). All while maintaining a dark core and super quick response no matter what dynamic you're playing. If I didn't have the BAC I'd probably play the Silversonic full time but man, that BAC is magic![/quote]
haha- that sounds incredible! Dang, hope to play one of those one day! Thanks for all the responses- might pull the trigger and get that 3b ss...need a bone that'll adapt to multiple situations but mainly for improv heavy settings.
haha- that sounds incredible! Dang, hope to play one of those one day! Thanks for all the responses- might pull the trigger and get that 3b ss...need a bone that'll adapt to multiple situations but mainly for improv heavy settings.
- greenbean
- Posts: 1958
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I just weighted a couple 2B Silver Sonics with 7 3/8" bells:
1947 2BSS: 471g
1967 2BSS: 469g
Only saves about one ounce.
1947 2BSS: 471g
1967 2BSS: 469g
Only saves about one ounce.
- Trombonic
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Mar 09, 2023
[quote="IdoMeshulam"]It's just scary good! Almost like having a cheat code. Moving through the partials and just the way it slots feels like you're on rails, my friend described it as the closest thing you can get to playing piano on trombone, the distances between the partials stay the same even up high (as opposed to a more traditional setup where they get narrower the higher you go). All while maintaining a dark core and super quick response no matter what dynamic you're playing. If I didn't have the BAC I'd probably play the Silversonic full time but man, that BAC is magic![/quote]
I love your playing on the BAC...and I guess I would love it on a 3B, too :good:
I love your playing on the BAC...and I guess I would love it on a 3B, too :good:
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="IdoMeshulam"]It's just scary good! Almost like having a cheat code. Moving through the partials and just the way it slots feels like you're on rails, my friend described it as the closest thing you can get to playing piano on trombone, the distances between the partials stay the same even up high (as opposed to a more traditional setup where they get narrower the higher you go). All while maintaining a dark core and super quick response no matter what dynamic you're playing. If I didn't have the BAC I'd probably play the Silversonic full time but man, that BAC is magic![/quote]
Ido,
Is your BAC a "stock" BAC Elliot Mason Signature (if there is such a thing), or have any customized mods been done?
What are its specs?
Ido,
Is your BAC a "stock" BAC Elliot Mason Signature (if there is such a thing), or have any customized mods been done?
What are its specs?
- IdoMeshulam
- Posts: 88
- Joined: Aug 20, 2019
Yes, my horn is a "stock" Elliot Mason Signature although it is a little different than what Elliot is playing on.
The slide is a .491 single bore in yellow brass with a nickel silver elliptical crook. If you look on YouTube, you can find a video of Elliot play testing a bunch of these horns, this slide is the 2nd one he plays on after his main axe (with the 8.5 gold brass bell). I couldn't believe it was a .491 when i play tested it, it plays huge and you can definitely move some air through it. Leadpipe wise, I stuck with whatever was already in there (BAC B2 pipe, no idea what the specs are). The slide is also compatible with king 3B's so I can use that slide with my other bells if I want to.
Now the bell on this horn (according to Mike) is an unfinished prototype. Unlike any of the other Mason horns I've seen it does not have a screw bell and instead it's a 1 piece 8.5 inch heavy gold brass bell. The rest of it is exactly the same as the other Mason bells except for the fact that it's a little bit shorter somehow. It was definitely more responsive and resonated better than the screw bell version I tried so that's what I ended up with.
The slide is a .491 single bore in yellow brass with a nickel silver elliptical crook. If you look on YouTube, you can find a video of Elliot play testing a bunch of these horns, this slide is the 2nd one he plays on after his main axe (with the 8.5 gold brass bell). I couldn't believe it was a .491 when i play tested it, it plays huge and you can definitely move some air through it. Leadpipe wise, I stuck with whatever was already in there (BAC B2 pipe, no idea what the specs are). The slide is also compatible with king 3B's so I can use that slide with my other bells if I want to.
Now the bell on this horn (according to Mike) is an unfinished prototype. Unlike any of the other Mason horns I've seen it does not have a screw bell and instead it's a 1 piece 8.5 inch heavy gold brass bell. The rest of it is exactly the same as the other Mason bells except for the fact that it's a little bit shorter somehow. It was definitely more responsive and resonated better than the screw bell version I tried so that's what I ended up with.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="IdoMeshulam"]Yes, my horn is a "stock" Elliot Mason Signature although it is a little different than what Elliot is playing on.[/quote]
:good:
:good:
- Sniffynose
- Posts: 96
- Joined: Sep 29, 2020
My 1973 silver sonic bell without tuning slide is 608 grams. Still has the stock lacquer on it.