More than two rotor valves?

Digidog · by **Digidog** » 2023-03-29 12:29 p.m.

Just for fun, and just because I've never heard of it: Are there any trombones that are not regular valve trombones (piston valved) with more than two valves? Like a three wrap bass trombone? Or a three wrap contrabass ditto?

I've never seen or heard about it, but what would the tuning of such a construction be? Would it even be playable? Or useful?

What says the knowledge and wisdom of The Trombone Chat?

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2023-03-29 12:30 p.m.

Digidog · by **Digidog** » 2023-03-29 12:36 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]Why?[/quote]

Just for the heck of speculating about it. Would there be any advantages with three valves and wraps?

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2023-03-29 12:46 p.m.

IMO, no. What would you gain?

MStarke · 2023-03-29 12:59 p.m.

More or less without any further specifics that's the superbone, including the Schagerl rotary version

<LINK_TEXT text="https://schagerl.com/meisterinstrumente ... superbone/">https://schagerl.com/meisterinstrumente/instrument/superbone/</LINK_TEXT>

hornbuilder · by **hornbuilder** » 2023-03-29 12:59 p.m.

https://www.robbstewart.com/boston-alto-horn-1-2

TheBoneRanger · by **TheBoneRanger** » 2023-03-29 5:13 p.m.

I recall a Greenhoe with three independent rotors, on the old forum. Can’t recall the tuning.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2023-03-29 5:46 p.m.

The best instrument, and still useful as a trombone that has more than two rotors is a superbone. This is the modern variant

<LINK_TEXT text="https://schagerl.com/meisterinstrumente ... e/?lang=en">https://schagerl.com/meisterinstrumente/instrument/superbone/?lang=en</LINK_TEXT>

/Tom

spencercarran · by **spencercarran** » 2023-03-29 6:15 p.m.

Holton assembled a prototype bell section with 4 rotor valves (see Douglas Yeo's article on double valve bass trombones in ITAJ). Unclear if it was ever finished and fully functional; from the pictures the tuning looks like superbone + F.

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2023-03-29 6:36 p.m.

<IMG src="">~~[img]~~</IMG>I've never seen it in person, but there's a guy on the high-level amateur circuit around Boston who owns a Minick-modified Holton TR-180 with three valves. Here are some pictures posted by Jim Becker, formerly of Osmun Brass:

CalgaryTbone · by **CalgaryTbone** » 2023-03-29 7:16 p.m.

I wonder if that's the same horn - when I was in High School, there was an annual Jazz Event for students with a visiting pro group that gave clinics in the day and gave a concert at night. One year, the guests were the Stan Kenton Band and the band had 5 trombones (2 basses - one doubled tuba). The 5th player was playing a 3-valve horn like that, and I know it was a Holton because there was a crashing sound in the concert while Kenton was introducing the next tune. Some soldering came loose on the horn, and a part fell off and hit the ground. Stan made a joke out of it, and after a word with the player, he held up the instrument and said "Ladies and Gentlemen, you might not want to buy a Holton trombone!" Luckily, the 5th player was the Tuba doubler, and he played the rest of the show on Tuba. The timing sounds right, because that would have been fairly early in the prime Minick years. I can't imagine that there are too many horns like that out there.

Jim Scott

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2023-03-29 7:29 p.m.

I might be wrong but that looks like it can be played as a dependent or an Independent instrument. OR Minick added that 3rd valve and bypassed the original 2nd valve as there’s no tuning slide in the original 2nd valve??

bitbckt · by **bitbckt** » 2023-03-29 7:45 p.m.

The three triggers seems to imply that it's intended to be played as a three-valve horn, not as an independent with a vestigial dependent valve. The missing tuning slide is probably present, but unpictured for whatever reason.

What an oddity.

BigBadandBass · by **BigBadandBass** » 2023-03-29 7:52 p.m.

Something like say a Bb/F/G setup with a valve on the f warp giving you essentially Bb/F/D/G seems like it could be useful. Have the ability to prime the double valve similar to a dependent but get some of the ease a G valve gives sounds actually kinda nice. You’d never have to move past 3rd position. …you’d also most likely have a bum shoulder as well but that’s besides the point

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2023-03-29 8:25 p.m.

Superbone from Schagerl, yup.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2023-03-29 8:41 p.m.

If my current bass wasn’t specifically built to fit in a somewhat compact screw bell case there is a non zero chance I’d have one. The benefit I see is that you can get the very useful G attachment, useful throughout most of the bass clef… the f attachment, which gives you positions roughly to that an octave higher… but then if you had say, a dependent valve that put C in 2nd or 3rd (when all 3 were engaged) you’d have a very easy C and B.

If I didn’t like the G attachment so much, I’d probably use Bb/F/Db tuning. I seldom use 1st position with both valves engaged, so I don’t lose much by having D be in first, and I get a lot from Db, C, and B being on the first half of the slide.

GabrielRice · 2023-03-29 9:01 p.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]I might be wrong but that looks like it can be played as a dependent or an Independent instrument. OR Minick added that 3rd valve and bypassed the original 2nd valve as there’s no tuning slide in the original 2nd valve??[/quote]

I think that slide is out because it's mid-service.

And yes, it has an independent 2nd valve and a valve that's dependent on the first valve tubing.

hornbuilder · by **hornbuilder** » 2023-03-29 10:27 p.m.

[quote="TheBoneRanger"]I recall a Greenhoe with three independent rotors, on the old forum. Can’t recall the tuning.[/quote]

Yes, there was a Bach 36 with 3 valves. It had the same tuning as a regular 3 valve instrument, operated with thumb an 2 fingers.

It started as a 2 valve horn, in Bb/Ab/G/F. That was a cool horn!! The owner wanted the additional half step valve added. Kind of lost the cool factor at that point, IMO. I used to have photos of it...

TheBoneRanger · by **TheBoneRanger** » 2023-03-30 7:16 a.m.

How about this wizardry from Gustafson Custom Horns?

<FACEBOOK id="321523822998765"><LINK_TEXT text="https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... tid=qC1gEa">https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=321523822998765&set=a.257091882775293&type=3&mibextid=qC1gEa</LINK_TEXT></FACEBOOK>

Danitrb · by **Danitrb** » 2023-03-30 8:20 a.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]Why?[/quote]

This is a good answer I think. Yes Superbone exists, but maybe there's a reason it's not used lately. It's probably too heavy and useless.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2023-03-30 10:46 a.m.

[quote="GabrielRice"]<QUOTE author="WGWTR180" post_id="206172" time="1680132571" user_id="7573">
I might be wrong but that looks like it can be played as a dependent or an Independent instrument. OR Minick added that 3rd valve and bypassed the original 2nd valve as there’s no tuning slide in the original 2nd valve??[/quote]

I think that slide is out because it's mid-service.

And yes, it has an independent 2nd valve and a valve that's dependent on the first valve tubing.
</QUOTE>

:good:

JeffBone44 · by **JeffBone44** » 2023-03-30 10:52 a.m.

A 3 valve horn might be annoyingly heavy to hold.

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2023-03-30 11:56 a.m.

The funny thing about the superbone is that despite 3 valves and a full-length slide, it still doesn't have a low B. All the valves together gives a sharp E, which isn't enough length. Not to mention that only the Schagerl superbone has the valves integrated into the bell section so that the handslide is in the normal position...on the Holton or Chinese copies of the Holton, 1st position is a lot farther away so you don't even have 7th.

Of course, the point of the superbone is to be able to improvise with the advantages of both valves and slide, and it's really fun to use that way. But you'd need a 4th valve to have a fully chromatic instrument.

[quote="TheBoneRanger"]How about this wizardry from Gustafson Custom Horns?

<FACEBOOK id="321523822998765"><LINK_TEXT text="https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... tid=qC1gEa">https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=321523822998765&set=a.257091882775293&type=3&mibextid=qC1gEa</LINK_TEXT></FACEBOOK>[/quote]

F, Gb, and a 2nd bell? Now that's a way to make 3 valves useful. Useful for what, who knows...probably avant-garde contemporary stuff. But useful nonetheless!

whitbey · by **whitbey** » 2023-04-01 9:06 a.m.

When I was in high school in the 1970's, I real bass trombonist visited our school. This was about when I got my own bass bone. He had his horn set up with Bb/F/ E and Eb. He said it was cool because he could get a D with all three valves. But the horn was stuffy to me when I tried it.

I bought a Bb/F/E horn as that was what the sold then. I got 2 sets of extension tubes and got C out of the E valve. Later I had it remade into C with bigger tubing. I think bigger tubing is better then a open wrap.

The tree valves was amazing just because the horn had so much plumbing. Very impressive to a young student.

trombonedemon · by **trombonedemon** » 2023-04-01 6:43 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]IMO, no. What would you gain?[/quote]

I'm thinking he has that shires double valve tenor in mind, would the concept work for an independent bass!?

BaronVonBone · 2023-04-01 7:47 p.m.

It would be interesting to hear Maynard Ferguson weigh in on this question. I suspect he answered many like it.

~~[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nU20TS1vvCg]~~Here's a bass player who has something to say about it though.

(Be aware, there's a four letter word in there--actually seven including the "ing".)

I wouldn't go as far as he does, but he might also tone his position down a bit in a more analytical context.

~~[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FE9o0kT11Xw&list=RDnU20TS1vvCg]~~Here's another who might have something to say as well.

~~[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUAQS-xDtYs]~~And here's another (on another Godzilla bass)?

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2023-04-01 8:23 p.m.

[quote="trombonedemon"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="206124" time="1680108369" user_id="3131">
IMO, no. What would you gain?[/quote]

I'm thinking he has that shires double valve tenor in mind, would the concept work for an independent bass!?
</QUOTE>

I doubt that's what was the point. I would like to try a Shires Quadder but I don't think it would fit on a gooseneck.

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2023-04-01 10:02 p.m.

I have two concepts I’d like to try in brass… if I have parts.

Three dependent valves: G/F/D. With two actuators so that it functions like a Bb/F/G/D horn. This could be fun and not difficult to build and hopefully not crazy heavy.

Four valves: bass superbone with a dependent valve on the first valve to make it F. Gets you a full length of bass attachments but also some superbone fun. This is gonna be heavy and need crazy levers to make it work.

Will either be useful? Dunno. I think I have enough parts for the three now, but not the time to figure it out just now.

Cheers,

Andy

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2023-04-02 1:32 a.m.

[quote="elmsandr"]I have two concepts I’d like to try in brass… if I have parts.

Three dependent valves: G/F/D. With two actuators so that it functions like a Bb/F/G/D horn. This could be fun and not difficult to build and hopefully not crazy heavy.

Four valves: bass superbone with a dependent valve on the first valve to make it F. Gets you a full length of bass attachments but also some superbone fun. This is gonna be heavy and need crazy levers to make it work.

Will either be useful? Dunno. I think I have enough parts for the three now, but not the time to figure it out just now.

Cheers,

Andy[/quote]

Now you have to combine the two, attaching the 4-valve section to the triple dependent bell section!

HawaiiTromboneGuy · by **HawaiiTromboneGuy** » 2023-04-02 10:02 a.m.

[quote="hornbuilder"]<QUOTE author="TheBoneRanger" post_id="206154" time="1680124392" user_id="2973">
I recall a Greenhoe with three independent rotors, on the old forum. Can’t recall the tuning.[/quote]

Yes, there was a Bach 36 with 3 valves. It had the same tuning as a regular 3 valve instrument, operated with thumb an 2 fingers.

It started as a 2 valve horn, in Bb/Ab/G/F. That was a cool horn!! The owner wanted the additional half step valve added. Kind of lost the cool factor at that point, IMO. I used to have photos of it...
</QUOTE>
Used to belong to a local guy here in Hawaii. I believe he ended up selling it a few years back. I’ll see if I can dig up the old photos I have of it and post them up here.

Digidog · by **Digidog** » 2023-04-03 3:16 p.m.

[quote="HawaiiTromboneGuy"]<QUOTE author="hornbuilder" post_id="206185" time="1680143279" user_id="3205">

Yes, there was a Bach 36 with 3 valves. It had the same tuning as a regular 3 valve instrument, operated with thumb an 2 fingers.

It started as a 2 valve horn, in Bb/Ab/G/F. That was a cool horn!! The owner wanted the additional half step valve added. Kind of lost the cool factor at that point, IMO. I used to have photos of it...[/quote]
Used to belong to a local guy here in Hawaii. I believe he ended up selling it a few years back. I’ll see if I can dig up the old photos I have of it and post them up here.
</QUOTE>

That would be cool to see!

This thread has shown some interesting takes on what can be done to a trombone.

mahlertwo · by **mahlertwo** » 2023-04-03 6:06 p.m.

[quote="HawaiiTromboneGuy"]<QUOTE author="hornbuilder" post_id="206185" time="1680143279" user_id="3205">

Yes, there was a Bach 36 with 3 valves. It had the same tuning as a regular 3 valve instrument, operated with thumb an 2 fingers.

It started as a 2 valve horn, in Bb/Ab/G/F. That was a cool horn!! The owner wanted the additional half step valve added. Kind of lost the cool factor at that point, IMO. I used to have photos of it...[/quote]
Used to belong to a local guy here in Hawaii. I believe he ended up selling it a few years back. I’ll see if I can dig up the old photos I have of it and post them up here.
</QUOTE>

Weird vintage horn belonged to a Hawaii guy who wasn't you? How the hell did that happen?

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2023-04-04 10:01 a.m.

Fine, since nobody else saves pictures around here…

(I won’t do it like this, I want to use less neckpipe and I have some thoughts. Also, thoughts on levers for days.)

Cheers,

Andy

<ATTACHMENT filename="ADF202F9-1034-4A70-B2D5-827400FB74E7.jpeg" index="1">~~[attachment=1]~~ADF202F9-1034-4A70-B2D5-827400FB74E7.jpeg</ATTACHMENT>

<ATTACHMENT filename="7ADFEDFB-9FA0-4CB9-B95C-5348798B369C.jpeg" index="0">~~[attachment=0]~~7ADFEDFB-9FA0-4CB9-B95C-5348798B369C.jpeg</ATTACHMENT>

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2023-04-04 10:10 a.m.

See, looking at this all I can think of is "wouldn't it be easier to just put a slide on a Cimbasso?" It just looks like an ergonomic nightmare, and I think if it was designed to be played sitting down with some type of stand, a far better valve setup could be made.

ithinknot · by **ithinknot** » 2023-04-04 11:16 a.m.

[quote="elmsandr"]Fine, since nobody else saves pictures around here…[/quote]

Tangent, but I've never understood the Greenhoe insistence on using the tight U bend even on G-wraps. Seems needlessly fussy, barely saves any length, and I can't believe that with a modern rotor a 180-port plus offset bend is 'worse' than a 90-port immediately followed by a tight 180.

(I'll probably cope, though)

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2023-04-04 11:46 a.m.

Then they'd have to have two rotor designs. Or would have had to. If everything is a 90, then you can get away with having a .562 and .593 rotor in one port configuration.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2023-04-04 12:47 p.m.

[quote="ithinknot"]Tangent, but I've never understood the Greenhoe insistence on using the tight U bend even on G-wraps. Seems needlessly fussy, barely saves any length, and I can't believe that with a modern rotor a 180-port plus offset bend is 'worse' than a 90-port immediately followed by a tight 180.[/quote] This is exactly what I thought when I first saw the Conn 88HNV "New Vintage". 90 90 valve followed on one side by a tight U bend, and on the other side by an S-tube followed by a ferrule and another tube.

Then I look at french horns, tubas, rotary trumpets, and my wonderful Bach LT36B and stop caring.

Then I look at the Stephens "Brass Ark" trombone with a pancake wrap and Caidex valve and chuckle. I bet it plays incredibly open.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2023-04-04 12:48 p.m.

Yup... that greenhoe is still dumb. Haha!

spencercarran · by **spencercarran** » 2023-04-04 1:16 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]Yup... that greenhoe is still dumb. Haha![/quote]
All the weight, expense, mechanical complexity, and response trade-offs of 3 valves... and (if Superbone-style tuning as it appears to be) still without a chromatic scale! Deeply stupid contraption.

ithinknot · by **ithinknot** » 2023-04-04 2:19 p.m.

[quote="tbonesullivan"]Then I look at the Stephens "Brass Ark" trombone with a pancake wrap and Caidex valve and chuckle. I bet it plays incredibly open.[/quote]

Oh sure - I've been playing a TR159 with the same sort of wrap (and antediluvian valve) and like it a lot. The Greenhoe thing is just goofy to the eye, all to save on making a very simple brazing fixture....

[quote="Burgerbob"]Yup... that greenhoe is still dumb. Haha![/quote]

but at least it was incredibly expensive

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2023-04-04 2:21 p.m.

[quote="ithinknot"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="206656" time="1680626886" user_id="3131">
Yup... that greenhoe is still dumb. Haha![/quote]

but at least it was incredibly expensive
</QUOTE>

And so good that the original owner sold it

ithinknot · by **ithinknot** » 2023-04-04 2:26 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="ithinknot" post_id="206667" time="1680632381" user_id="9763">
but at least it was incredibly expensive[/quote]
And so good that the original owner sold it
</QUOTE>
~~[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_Life]~~cue Elton

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2023-04-04 4:02 p.m.

[quote="spencercarran"]All the weight, expense, mechanical complexity, and response trade-offs of 3 valves... and (if Superbone-style tuning as it appears to be) still without a chromatic scale! Deeply stupid contraption.[/quote] Yes, especially considering the spacing that the open curving knuckles of the valves require, which means bye bye gooseneck on the basses, and on that horn means pretty much negative gooseneck.

I do wonder if any company has made an inline bass with valves designed to be both open but also designed to allow for maximum gooseneck length.

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2023-04-04 4:25 p.m.

[quote="tbonesullivan"]<QUOTE author="spencercarran" post_id="206659" time="1680628590" user_id="10390">All the weight, expense, mechanical complexity, and response trade-offs of 3 valves... and (if Superbone-style tuning as it appears to be) still without a chromatic scale! Deeply stupid contraption.[/quote] Yes, especially considering the spacing that the open curving knuckles of the valves require, which means bye bye gooseneck on the basses, and on that horn means pretty much negative gooseneck.

I do wonder if any company has made an inline bass with valves designed to be both open but also designed to allow for maximum gooseneck length.
</QUOTE>
What valve makes that design o you? It’s pretty much a trade-off. You could say progressive Hagmann have that… maybe the Caidex…. But what would you consider open but maximum gooseneck?

Cheers,

Andy

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2023-04-04 4:40 p.m.

[quote="elmsandr"]What valve makes that design o you? It’s pretty much a trade-off. You could say progressive Hagmann have that… maybe the Caidex…. But what would you consider open but maximum gooseneck?

Cheers,

Andy[/quote] Well, I mean more that the space taken up by the valves themselves is less to allow for more gooseneck. I was looking at the recent Kühnl & Hoyer offerings, and their standard inline bass trombone has valves located very close together, with a pretty long gooseneck. I know that a lot of makers mount the valves at an angle, which allows them to use less bends in the attachment tubing, but this also could be somewhere that the length of the valves could be reduced by having the connecting knuckle minimized.

spencercarran · by **spencercarran** » 2023-04-04 4:51 p.m.

[quote="tbonesullivan"]<QUOTE author="spencercarran" post_id="206659" time="1680628590" user_id="10390">All the weight, expense, mechanical complexity, and response trade-offs of 3 valves... and (if Superbone-style tuning as it appears to be) still without a chromatic scale! Deeply stupid contraption.[/quote] Yes, especially considering the spacing that the open curving knuckles of the valves require, which means bye bye gooseneck on the basses, and on that horn means pretty much negative gooseneck.

I do wonder if any company has made an inline bass with valves designed to be both open but also designed to allow for maximum gooseneck length.
</QUOTE>

You can see they had to cut into the tuning slide leg to make room for the third valve, and whaddya wanna bet all three rotors (and valve sections) are the same size as each other?

One certainly could build, eg, a Thayer valve with a taper in the open side passage, similarly to the progressive Hagmanns Andy mentioned, either of which approach would more closely mimic the response of an instrument with a proper gooseneck. It might have some unintended consequences (good, bad, or just different) for response on the valve's engaged side.

greenbean · by **greenbean** » 2023-04-05 5:07 p.m.

[quote="spencercarran"]

... Deeply stupid...
[/quote]

Perfect description. :lol:

hornbuilder · by **hornbuilder** » 2023-04-05 7:46 p.m.

Yes. That 36 ended up being a bit of a "what's the point" horn. It could have been something really special and innovative, but that was what the client wanted.

If only there was someone who had worked in that shop, who saw/was aware of the issues being discussed here, opened their own shop to design and make trombones correcting said issues, and more...

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More than two rotor valves?