Wrap replacement on 42BO when changing valve
- PMPugs20
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Dec 22, 2020
Hi all! I am going to swap out the stock rotor on my 42BO to an Instrument Innovations rotor this summer, and was wondering if it would be a worthwhile choice to also have the wrap changed from the stock wrap to a more modern open wrap with the sort of "C" shaped inner tube so that the tuning slide for the F side of the horn wouldn't have to stick out quite so much. The logistics of such a change are completely foreign to me but I would love to have it done if it's feasible. I already know that my tech has done the valve swaps with no issue, but they haven't gotten back to me regarding changing the wrap. In case it matters at all, the horn is completely stock currently with the old style ball and socket linkage.
- Elow
- Posts: 1924
- Joined: Mar 02, 2020
The real improvement will come from changing the bracing around, creating bracing that doesn't connect directly to the bell really improves most Bach IMHO.
- Dennis
- Posts: 404
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
[quote="PMPugs20"]Hi all! I am going to swap out the stock rotor on my 42BO to an Instrument Innovations rotor this summer, and was wondering if it would be a worthwhile choice to also have the wrap changed from the stock wrap to a more modern open wrap with the sort of "C" shaped inner tube so that the tuning slide for the F side of the horn wouldn't have to stick out quite so much. The logistics of such a change are completely foreign to me but I would love to have it done if it's feasible.[/quote]
Feasible? Sure. It's a matter of money. You'll probably have to buy new F-attachment tubing, because the Bach open wrap only has a single U-bend and one 90 degree bend. The project is going to require a 90 degree bend and two U's. Maybe your tech can pick up the pieces needed from a donor horn (likely one with a traditional wrap), but that's going to depend on what's in the spare parts awaiting recycling bin. Larry Minick was able to take traditional Bach and Conn wraps and make an open wrap with a C section on the return from the parts, but that traditional wrap gave him a lot more pieces to play with.
You need to settle this with your tech before the parts are ordered, because the valve needed for a drop-in replacement has 90 degree bend on the in-ports and a 180 degree bend on the out-ports. For a modified wrap, you need 90 degree bends on both parts. I'm sure they are different part numbers.
Feasible? Sure. It's a matter of money. You'll probably have to buy new F-attachment tubing, because the Bach open wrap only has a single U-bend and one 90 degree bend. The project is going to require a 90 degree bend and two U's. Maybe your tech can pick up the pieces needed from a donor horn (likely one with a traditional wrap), but that's going to depend on what's in the spare parts awaiting recycling bin. Larry Minick was able to take traditional Bach and Conn wraps and make an open wrap with a C section on the return from the parts, but that traditional wrap gave him a lot more pieces to play with.
You need to settle this with your tech before the parts are ordered, because the valve needed for a drop-in replacement has 90 degree bend on the in-ports and a 180 degree bend on the out-ports. For a modified wrap, you need 90 degree bends on both parts. I'm sure they are different part numbers.
- PMPugs20
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Dec 22, 2020
Gotcha, thank you - I guess I'll wait until my tech gets back to me regarding this to see what's needed!
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
I actually like the traditional wraps. When they’re well assembled they can play very well. If your tech is disassembling everything anyway, I wouldn’t bother personally.
- PMPugs20
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Dec 22, 2020
Oh, perfect, thank you Matt! I was in the middle of typing out an ask of whether or not there's any advantage to changing it! I assume disassembly and reassembly is inherent in this so it should be well done afterwards regardless.
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
Yeah when your tech takes the rotor off, they’ll likely have to take some of the tubing off and cut it… and by the time they do that, they’ll probably have resoldered everything on the bell section in some capacity. A good tech will typically put a little heat on everything to make sure it’s assembled without stress and in proper alignment as a last step.
- PMPugs20
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Dec 22, 2020
Gotcha, thank you for the info!! Sorry for all the questions, but is it possible to shorten the tuning slide or something without changing the wrap, or is that not super feasible/worth it financially/whatever else?
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
Yeah, the 42BO is probably the easiest wrap to shorten. Maybe the Yamaha open wraps.. but yeah I think you could even cut it down to Ab tuning without getting different bends. Certainly G would be possible. I think fellow forum member Neobri did that to an open wrap 36BO a few years ago. The tech might have to brace slightly differently if it’s cut far enough. But nothing too ridiculous.
- PMPugs20
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Dec 22, 2020
Gotcha! I don't know if I'm gonna bother with that but I've been waffling - nice to know I have the option!
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
:Best of both worlds: shorten to G and have an extension built for Gb and F!
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
(G is REALLY short)
Get out your sewing tape measure. You currently have about 37” for F. G is ~20-21”. Gb is what, about 28? These are all off the top of my head, so they may be a bit approximate.
To make a G for. 42BO, I had to trim down tubes AND I used the narrow tuning slide from a 42B shortened to fit. For a valve swap, your tech is going to have to do 80% of making an attachment from scratch, and the bends aren’t that expensive. Talk to them and get something that you like.
Cheers,
Andy
Get out your sewing tape measure. You currently have about 37” for F. G is ~20-21”. Gb is what, about 28? These are all off the top of my head, so they may be a bit approximate.
To make a G for. 42BO, I had to trim down tubes AND I used the narrow tuning slide from a 42B shortened to fit. For a valve swap, your tech is going to have to do 80% of making an attachment from scratch, and the bends aren’t that expensive. Talk to them and get something that you like.
Cheers,
Andy
- Neo_Bri
- Posts: 1342
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
[quote="Matt K"]Yeah, the 42BO is probably the easiest wrap to shorten. Maybe the Yamaha open wraps.. but yeah I think you could even cut it down to Ab tuning without getting different bends. Certainly G would be possible. I think fellow forum member Neobri did that to an open wrap 36BO a few years ago. The tech might have to brace slightly differently if it’s cut far enough. But nothing too ridiculous.[/quote]
Absolutely right. I shortened that 36 to G and it was fantastic.
My current "main horn" is a 42BO which I also shortened to G. And yep, I have another "crook" for playing in F. Everything works great.
But I would like to swap the valve out at some point.
Absolutely right. I shortened that 36 to G and it was fantastic.
My current "main horn" is a 42BO which I also shortened to G. And yep, I have another "crook" for playing in F. Everything works great.
But I would like to swap the valve out at some point.
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
Is this that magic 42BO I played in the before times? That was an unbelievable bell section.
- PMPugs20
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Dec 22, 2020
This is a lot of interesting stuff to hear! Until very recently I had never heard of people changing the tuning of their valves. Frankly, I don't know if it's worth it for me to do this, so I might just leave it. What are some good reasons to do this? If it matters any, my goal is to be playing tenor in orchestras.
I do have another question that is semi related - I'd also love to know if it is possible to make the tuning slide not extend out so far, while still keeping it an F attachment.
I do have another question that is semi related - I'd also love to know if it is possible to make the tuning slide not extend out so far, while still keeping it an F attachment.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
If you want a new valve, you'll probably be replacing most of the wrap. The 42BO wrap even uses a wrong-size offset in the wrap (it's a .593 part from the 50B2) so it's probably worth replacing anyway.
If you use a valve with 90 degree ports, you can't use that wrap anyway- that's how most of the makers now get their open wraps to not stick out so far.
That kind of valve tubing is easily sourced from Instrument Innovations to match most valves you would end up putting on.
If you use a valve with 90 degree ports, you can't use that wrap anyway- that's how most of the makers now get their open wraps to not stick out so far.
That kind of valve tubing is easily sourced from Instrument Innovations to match most valves you would end up putting on.
- PMPugs20
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Dec 22, 2020
[quote="Burgerbob"]If you want a new valve, you'll probably be replacing most of the wrap. The 42BO wrap even uses a wrong-size offset in the wrap (it's a .593 part from the 50B2) so it's probably worth replacing anyway.
If you use a valve with 90 degree ports, you can't use that wrap anyway- that's how most of the makers now get their open wraps to not stick out so far.[/quote]
I see! So it wouldn't be too much trouble to change it? I'm fine with keeping a similar wrap on it if I have to, but if it wouldn't be ridiculously more expensive I'd love if it didn't stick out quite as much. Sorry I'm asking so many questions by the way all! I just don't know much about this at all, and as said before my tech hasn't been responding. Honestly considering taking it to another... we shall see.
If you use a valve with 90 degree ports, you can't use that wrap anyway- that's how most of the makers now get their open wraps to not stick out so far.[/quote]
I see! So it wouldn't be too much trouble to change it? I'm fine with keeping a similar wrap on it if I have to, but if it wouldn't be ridiculously more expensive I'd love if it didn't stick out quite as much. Sorry I'm asking so many questions by the way all! I just don't know much about this at all, and as said before my tech hasn't been responding. Honestly considering taking it to another... we shall see.
- jbtb
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Apr 25, 2023
[quote="Elow"]The real improvement will come from changing the bracing around, creating bracing that doesn't connect directly to the bell really improves most Bach IMHO.[/quote]
I'm having this done as we speak on my 42BO based on the recommendation of my instrument tech. Excited to get the horn back soon and test out the changes.
[quote="PMPugs20"]This is a lot of interesting stuff to hear! Until very recently I had never heard of people changing the tuning of their valves. Frankly, I don't know if it's worth it for me to do this, so I might just leave it. What are some good reasons to do this? If it matters any, my goal is to be playing tenor in orchestras.[/quote]
This type of modification is also news to me and I'm interested in the reasoning behind it.
I'm having this done as we speak on my 42BO based on the recommendation of my instrument tech. Excited to get the horn back soon and test out the changes.
[quote="PMPugs20"]This is a lot of interesting stuff to hear! Until very recently I had never heard of people changing the tuning of their valves. Frankly, I don't know if it's worth it for me to do this, so I might just leave it. What are some good reasons to do this? If it matters any, my goal is to be playing tenor in orchestras.[/quote]
This type of modification is also news to me and I'm interested in the reasoning behind it.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="PMPugs20"]
I see! So it wouldn't be too much trouble to change it? I'm fine with keeping a similar wrap on it if I have to, but if it wouldn't be ridiculously more expensive I'd love if it didn't stick out quite as much. Sorry I'm asking so many questions by the way all! I just don't know much about this at all, and as said before my tech hasn't been responding. Honestly considering taking it to another... we shall see.[/quote]
It's more trouble than keeping it the same... but it's also not possible to keep it the same, so it's going to be work regardless.
I see! So it wouldn't be too much trouble to change it? I'm fine with keeping a similar wrap on it if I have to, but if it wouldn't be ridiculously more expensive I'd love if it didn't stick out quite as much. Sorry I'm asking so many questions by the way all! I just don't know much about this at all, and as said before my tech hasn't been responding. Honestly considering taking it to another... we shall see.[/quote]
It's more trouble than keeping it the same... but it's also not possible to keep it the same, so it's going to be work regardless.
- PMPugs20
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Dec 22, 2020
[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="PMPugs20" post_id="208930" time="1683046017" user_id="10988">
I see! So it wouldn't be too much trouble to change it? I'm fine with keeping a similar wrap on it if I have to, but if it wouldn't be ridiculously more expensive I'd love if it didn't stick out quite as much. Sorry I'm asking so many questions by the way all! I just don't know much about this at all, and as said before my tech hasn't been responding. Honestly considering taking it to another... we shall see.[/quote]
It's more trouble than keeping it the same... but it's also not possible to keep it the same, so it's going to be work regardless.
</QUOTE>
Got it. I'll definitely check in on this with whoever ends up working on the horn. Thanks much for all of the help!
I see! So it wouldn't be too much trouble to change it? I'm fine with keeping a similar wrap on it if I have to, but if it wouldn't be ridiculously more expensive I'd love if it didn't stick out quite as much. Sorry I'm asking so many questions by the way all! I just don't know much about this at all, and as said before my tech hasn't been responding. Honestly considering taking it to another... we shall see.[/quote]
It's more trouble than keeping it the same... but it's also not possible to keep it the same, so it's going to be work regardless.
</QUOTE>
Got it. I'll definitely check in on this with whoever ends up working on the horn. Thanks much for all of the help!
- Rrova
- Posts: 117
- Joined: Apr 10, 2018
To do an Edwards-style wrap, I think all you would need is the U bend, tuning slide crook and a small 90 degree bend. I think that comes out to about $80 or so (check the prices on the Instrument Innovations site). There are people much more experienced than I on this (both the consumer side and def the tech side) but I'm sort of thinking it may be more involved to try to keep the same wrap. Since the Olsen rotary is much bigger than the Bach rotor, it would require cutting up the original wrap anyways, so swapping out a few bends isn't that much more complicated (might be easier for the tech). You should also do some research on using a more open gooseneck and whether its something you'd be interested in. Good luck! Let us know either way!
- Blabberbucket
- Posts: 305
- Joined: Oct 09, 2022
It would be easy to rewrap using a Shires/Edwards/Greenhoe style open wrap, this will shorten the amount of tubing extended beyond the bell like you wanted. As RNova above me mentioned, you'll also need to order the Instrument Innovations neckpipe, as their valve ports are laid out a bit differently than Bach's and do not compensate for the 4 degree angle required for the handslide to clear the bell. I'll send you a PM
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
I’ll add to the suggestions for using Instrument Innovations parts. I have a 42B that has gone through a few iterations. My most recent and favorite is an II valve and tubing with an I.I. neckpipe. I prefer it to my O.E. Thayer valve.
I also have a 50B3 with I.I. valves. That horn is a little different: Years ago, I asked John Sandhagen to make an independent valve section from two instruments. John installed Kanstul CR valves, but those wore out, so I asked Graham Middleton to replace the Kanstuls with I.I. valves and a neckpipe. Much better.
Both horns have the characteristic Bach sound, but the sound and feel is more even overall. (A good leadpipe also helps; I don’t remember what I use currently, either I.I. pipes or stock Bach.) The high Ab is still a little squirrelly, but it’s better than it was. I think any problems are now down to operator error.
I also have a 50B3 with I.I. valves. That horn is a little different: Years ago, I asked John Sandhagen to make an independent valve section from two instruments. John installed Kanstul CR valves, but those wore out, so I asked Graham Middleton to replace the Kanstuls with I.I. valves and a neckpipe. Much better.
Both horns have the characteristic Bach sound, but the sound and feel is more even overall. (A good leadpipe also helps; I don’t remember what I use currently, either I.I. pipes or stock Bach.) The high Ab is still a little squirrelly, but it’s better than it was. I think any problems are now down to operator error.