Ralph Sauer horn and mouthpiece/shank choice

FatherJohn · by **FatherJohn** » 2023-05-05 12:20 p.m.

I'm about to move to the Sauer dual-bore model. I've been playing a standard .547 horn. The Sauer model has lead pipes for both small and shank mouthpieces. Would something like a 51C4 or 5G large shank mouthpiece sound any different from the same mouthpiece model with a small shank??

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2023-05-05 2:30 p.m.

They will probably feel a little different. The throats are usually the same size but the backbore has to be different due to the differences in shank size.

Dennis · by **Dennis** » 2023-05-12 6:22 p.m.

With the understanding that Bach has made special order mouthpieces and so things could vary, here are the standard specs.

The large shank 5G is supposed to have a 0.261" throat drill and a 429 backbore.

The small shank 5 is supposed to have a 0.230" throat drill and a 402 backbore.

The 5GS (both shanks) is supposed to have a 0.261" throat drill and a 420 backbore (same backbore as the 6 1/2 AL). (Bach refers to the 420 backbore as their euphonium backbore.)

Baby Bear probably plays the 5, Papa Bear probably plays the 5G, and Momma Bear plays the 5GS.

I don't know about Schilke's specs. I suspect any differences you'd find using the 5GS in both shanks would be more due to the leadpipes/receiver differences.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2023-05-12 6:35 p.m.

I play 51s in my .525 using Sauer leadpipes. They sound similar enough that I mainly use the small shank set up for most things. Rather than switch leadpipes, I just move to my larger horn.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2023-05-12 6:39 p.m.

My small-shank Schilke 51 has the same cup and throat (7.04mm/0.277") as the large-shank version, but of course a somewhat different backbore to accommodate the smaller leadpipe diameter. It sounds fine to me on a medium-bore (0.522" or 0.525") or dual-bore (0.525"/0.547").

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2023-05-12 8:18 p.m.

My absolute most favorite bore size because it does make a big difference to me. With a large shank with an open backbone it’s 90% a large bore to my ears. With a small shank, just a touch more open than a single bore 525.

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2023-05-13 9:31 a.m.

The quick answer is yes, and Matt K describes the difference perfectly.

When Ralph scaled down to .525/.547 dual bore in the last few years of his LA Phil career, he worked with Schilke to make a custom small shank mouthpiece. Essentially it's a 51 rim with a 50 cup, and the outer shape is skeletonized so that it looks kind of like a standard Marcinkiewicz, or a little like a Denis Wick.

Dennis · by **Dennis** » 2023-05-13 5:54 p.m.

[quote="GabrielRice"]When Ralph scaled down to .525/.547 dual bore in the last few years of his LA Phil career, he worked with Schilke to make a custom small shank mouthpiece. Essentially it's a 51 rim with a 50 cup, and the outer shape is skeletonized so that it looks kind of like a standard Marcinkiewicz, or a little like a Denis Wick.[/quote]

Thanks, Gabe. I've wondered what Ralph was playing, because I couldn't tell anything beyond a skeletonized

Schilke.

Jimkinkella · by **Jimkinkella** » 2023-05-14 1:14 a.m.

I've got a very similar setup to the Sauer Shires (albeit in Conn form), the best m'piece I've found so far has been a Hammond 12M.

I'm kind of thinking that a Doug Elliott XT101 / E / 5 would be pretty great, I've tried a bunch of others with limited success.

YMMV

Tbarh · by **Tbarh** » 2023-05-14 6:24 a.m.

I remember that Ralph stated in an old interview (when he played Conn )that the reason that the 525/547 slide came with the large shank receiver leadpipe was that large bore players could easily test it.. He meant that the slide played much better with a small shank..<EMOJI seq="1f609" tseq="1f609">😉</EMOJI>

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2023-05-14 6:29 a.m.

[quote="Jimkinkella"]I've got a very similar setup to the Sauer Shires (albeit in Conn form), the best m'piece I've found so far has been a Hammond 12M.

I'm kind of thinking that a Doug Elliott XT101 / E / 5 would be pretty great, I've tried a bunch of others with limited success.

YMMV[/quote]

Doug hadn’t designed an E5 as of late last year but an E4 with an XTE works great for me. As does a D+ and a D3 even. Plays shockingly broad given how small that is.

I also recently picked up his SYM series and a SYM G / G4 also works great. Or a G8 with the larger leadpipe.

Jimkinkella · by **Jimkinkella** » 2023-05-14 5:21 p.m.

[quote="Tbarh"]I remember that Ralph stated in an old interview (when he played Conn )that the reason that the 525/547 slide came with the large shank receiver leadpipe was that large bore players could easily test it.. He meant that the slide played much better with a small shank..<EMOJI seq="1f609" tseq="1f609">😉</EMOJI>[/quote]

Yeah, I honestly really don't like the large shank leadpipe in the 525/547 slide.

I've been told that there are some good versions out there, but I haven't found one...

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2023-05-14 6:28 p.m.

I have not had a chance to try one of those horns. I suspect my current #4 backbores are plenty big enough, but if somebody wants to loan me a horn for a few weeks I'll check it out.

I'm not expecting a positive response to that.

muschem · by **muschem** » 2023-05-14 6:38 p.m.

My Shires Sauer model has been sitting in the case since the Butler C10 arrived, but I played Doug's mouthpieces on both the large shank and small shank pipes with it for several months before switching over. On the large shank side, the E8, F8, and G8 all work great. On the small shank side E4, F4, and G4 are also good. I suppose a 5 size shank might be interesting, but the 4 plays plenty open for me on this horn. My defaults were XT F8 and XT E4, depending on what I was playing.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2023-05-14 8:43 p.m.

Doug, you can borrow mine for a few weeks sometime this summer. Need to figure out when I’m in the area should be doing 2-3 DC trips between now and Aug

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2023-05-14 11:29 p.m.

Well OK!

In July I'll be going to ITF in Salt Lake City, so sooner is better than later.

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Ralph Sauer horn and mouthpiece/shank choice