Rim Shape

Mitchwolberg5 · by **Mitchwolberg5** » 2023-05-12 3:37 p.m.

I've got a Gene Watts mouthpiece that came with my Yamaha 356R that sounds great and is really comfortable. The rim is wide and slightly curved. The problem is that its also very deep which tires me out and limits my high range. Does anybody know of other mouthpieces with a similar rim?

Mitch

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2023-05-12 4:34 p.m.

[quote="Mitchwolberg5"]I've got a Gene Watts mouthpiece that came with my Yamaha 356R that sounds great and is really comfortable. The rim is wide and slightly curved. The problem is that its also very deep which tires me out and limits my high range. Does anybody know of other mouthpieces with a similar rim?

Mitch[/quote]

Found this, my reply to a similar post in 2018:
[quote="Doug Elliott"]In the very beginning I made just 2 or 3 for them, and I don't know what happened to them or how they were labeled. Your description sounds like it could be one of those.[/quote]

So there's at least some chance that it's the shape of my standard rims.

Probably my LT 101, which works on any of my LT cups and their appropriate shanks.

A 356R is small shank .500/.525, right?

I haven't paid much attention to those mouthpieces, but I didn't know they were made in small shank.

Mitchwolberg5 · by **Mitchwolberg5** » 2023-05-12 5:11 p.m.

Strangely enough it's a large shank but I'd like to find something similar in a small shank as well for my 6H. Sounds like I should be looking at your mp's.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2023-05-12 6:16 p.m.

[quote="Mitchwolberg5"]Strangely enough it's a large shank but I'd like to find something similar in a small shank as well for my 6H. Sounds like I should be looking at your mp's.[/quote]

Yes, you should be looking at Doug Elliott's mouthpiece lineup. Get his advice before you purchase.

I don't understand the combination of a (large-shank) Gene Watts mouthpiece and the (small-shank) Yamaha 356R (as Doug noted, 0.500"/0.525" dual bore). They don't mate. How did you try out the mouthpiece? :idk:

The Gene Watts mouthpiece I obtained from Jim Scott a few years ago was (I believe) made by Getzen, and does indeed have a deep funnel-shaped cup and a "Remington" shank - for a Conn 8H/88H. Compared to a Bach 5G, the Gene Watts cup is a bit smaller I.D., but deeper. The rim is wide and quite flat, with a fairly sharp bite. The overall mouthpiece shape (blank) is similar to the Denis Wick "Heritage" profile.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2023-05-12 9:34 p.m.

If your horn has a large shank, it's not a 356R.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2023-05-12 9:47 p.m.

Could be a 356R bell with a different slide. Or a 356R w/o a leadpipe. I sold a 356R that I had the leadpipe pulled sometime last year. A large shank would fit in it but it would play a LOT better w/ one. That might be your endurance problem if that is the case.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2023-05-12 9:57 p.m.

Maybe the 648R?

Mitchwolberg5 · by **Mitchwolberg5** » 2023-05-15 11:20 a.m.

Interesting responses, the bell is 8" and the slide is .5/.525 so I'm pretty sure its a 356. I've got a press in lead pipe on my 6H so I'll see if that fits and changes how the horn plays.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2023-05-15 1:27 p.m.

It can't take a large shank mouthpiece. Maybe the terminology is not right.

A large shank mouthpiece is very close to .500 at the end. It can't go into a slide that's .500

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2023-05-15 1:47 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]It can't take a large shank mouthpiece. Maybe the terminology is not right.

A large shank mouthpiece is very close to .500 at the end. It can't go into a slide that's .500[/quote]

My speculation:

I expect that the [large "Remington" shank] Gene Watts mouthpiece was just coincidentally shipped to the OP with the [small shank] Yamaha 356R trombone. Since these components are not compatible, I expect the OP tried the mouthpiece with another large shank trombone, and the 356R reference is merely a "red herring!"

Mitchwolberg5 · by **Mitchwolberg5** » 2023-05-16 10:54 a.m.

This has gotten away from the original question but its definitely 500/525 and a small shank mp doesn't fit at all. The press in leadpipe from my 6H won't come out easily and I don't want to force it. I bought the horn used so I don't know what customizations were made to it.

So other than Doug Elliot's mp's are there other mp's with a wide slightly rounded rim?

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2023-05-16 12:34 p.m.

Pictures, please.

I don't see how any .500 bore upper tube can be fitted with a large shank receiver.

Mitchwolberg5 · by **Mitchwolberg5** » 2023-05-16 1:14 p.m.

Here's some pic's:

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.dropbox.com/s/b3z966pd59p05 ... 4.jpg?dl=0">https://www.dropbox.com/s/b3z966pd59p05o8/IMG_20230516_105501514.jpg?dl=0</LINK_TEXT>

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.dropbox.com/s/ofxaztjrw55fi ... 9.jpg?dl=0">https://www.dropbox.com/s/ofxaztjrw55fijk/IMG_20230516_105530799.jpg?dl=0</LINK_TEXT>

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.dropbox.com/s/cepsvbu63ya98 ... 3.jpg?dl=0">https://www.dropbox.com/s/cepsvbu63ya98ch/IMG_20230516_105551063.jpg?dl=0</LINK_TEXT>

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2023-05-16 1:33 p.m.

Definitely a large shank horn. I'd expect it's a 448G

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2023-05-16 2:03 p.m.

Yeah, either that's been really modified, or it's not a YSL-356R. I guess it's possible that someone decided to ream out the end of the leadpipe for a larger mouthpiece, but that seems unlikely.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2023-05-16 2:09 p.m.

How are you sure it's .500 bore on the upper slide tube?

Mitchwolberg5 · by **Mitchwolberg5** » 2023-05-16 2:44 p.m.

Measured with calipers and the slide only goes on 1 way.

It plays great up to the F above staff and then gets stuffy above that.

Kdanielsen · by **Kdanielsen** » 2023-05-16 2:49 p.m.

Perhaps the leadpipe is missing

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2023-05-16 3:58 p.m.

[quote="Mitchwolberg5"]Measured with calipers and the slide only goes on 1 way.[/quote]
You have calipers?

Can you measure the Gene Watts mouthpiece shank right at the end of the mouthpiece receiver?

Also, does the mouthpiece seat solidly or does it wobble?

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2023-05-16 8:04 p.m.

[quote="Mitchwolberg5"]Here's some pic's:

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.dropbox.com/s/ofxaztjrw55fi ... 9.jpg?dl=0">https://www.dropbox.com/s/ofxaztjrw55fijk/IMG_20230516_105530799.jpg?dl=0</LINK_TEXT>
[/quote]

That's the Gene Watts mouthpiece, all right.

Here are the measurements of the one that I have (thanks to Gene Watts and Jim Scott):

• Rim I.D. ~ 25.45mm / 1.002"

• Flat, Wide Rim; fairly sharp bite

• V-shaped Cup, fairly deep

• Throat: ~7.16mm / 0.282"

• Backbore: fairly broad

• "Remington" shank (should wobble a bit in a standard large-bore receiver; e.g., for a 0.547" bore trombone)

• Gold-plated

This mouthpiece is indeed compatible with an Elkhart Conn 88H.

dcslideman · by **dcslideman** » 2023-05-18 5:45 p.m.

Regarding the bell section, it should have a model engraved on the neckpipe just above the connection ring. The case looks older than 448 era, but that could have been swapped out.

CalgaryTbone · by **CalgaryTbone** » 2023-05-18 7:06 p.m.

[quote="Posaunus"]<QUOTE author="Mitchwolberg5" post_id="210135" time="1684257297" user_id="15336">
Here's some pic's:

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.dropbox.com/s/ofxaztjrw55fi ... 9.jpg?dl=0">https://www.dropbox.com/s/ofxaztjrw55fijk/IMG_20230516_105530799.jpg?dl=0</LINK_TEXT>
[/quote]

That's the Gene Watts mouthpiece, all right.

Here are the measurements of the one that I have (thanks to Gene Watts and Jim Scott):

• Rim I.D. ~ 25.45mm / 1.002"

• Flat, Wide Rim; fairly sharp bite

• V-shaped Cup, fairly deep

• Throat: ~7.16mm / 0.282"

• Backbore: fairly broad

• "Remington" shank (should wobble a bit in a standard large-bore receiver; e.g., for a 0.547" bore trombone)

• Gold-plated

This mouthpiece is indeed compatible with an Elkhart Conn 88H.
</QUOTE>

Those mouthpieces were made while the Canadian Brass were playing Getzen horns (early days of the Edwards, and I think a bit before most of the more professional Getzens were produced). The standard trombone mouthpiece had a Bach-style shank, but they made the Conn-style version as well. Maybe a small shank too, because the "student model" Gene Watts horn was a .525/.547 bore, while Gene's regular (pro-model) horn was a .547. I forget who was making the mouthpieces (Warburton?). I never really played mine except play-testing, but Gene gave it to me when the quintet was playing a concert with my orchestra, and he saw me playing my 1950's Conn 8H. I think the Tuba mouthpieces are still sought after, because Chuck had at least one model that was a copy of Arnold Jacob's maim mouthpiece.

Jim Scott

Mitchwolberg5 · by **Mitchwolberg5** » 2023-05-19 11:42 a.m.

[quote="dcslideman"]Regarding the bell section, it should have a model engraved on the neckpipe just above the connection ring. The case looks older than 448 era, but that could have been swapped out.[/quote]

It was hard to read but it confirms it: 365R.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2023-05-19 11:54 a.m.

[quote="Mitchwolberg5"]<QUOTE author="dcslideman" post_id="210338" time="1684446320" user_id="15043">
Regarding the bell section, it should have a model engraved on the neckpipe just above the connection ring. The case looks older than 448 era, but that could have been swapped out.[/quote]

It was hard to read but it confirms it: 365R.
</QUOTE>

365R is different than the originally posted 356R.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2023-05-19 1:16 p.m.

I don't know what a 365 is.

Does the slide section have a model number on it?

Sounds like it may be a very modified frankenyamaha

...trombone shaped object.

Mitchwolberg5 · by **Mitchwolberg5** » 2023-05-19 1:56 p.m.

Sorry for the typo...356R

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