Another Weird Yamaha Wrap?
- Cmiertschin
- Posts: 47
- Joined: Dec 23, 2022
Perusing Ebay this morning, I ran across this YSL-825, a model I had never heard of before seeing this horn. It looks like they took the 882V wrap(ish) and slapped it onto a rotary valve? Anyone familiar with these? Just curious, I love a weird horn! And if this turns into a weird Yamaha thread, I would not be upset, please bring out the weirdo horns!
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
- Cmiertschin
- Posts: 47
- Joined: Dec 23, 2022
[quote="JohnL"]<LINK_TEXT text="viewtopic.php?t=20549">https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?t=20549</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]
Thanks!
Thanks!
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
Yo dawg I heard open wraps 180 degree bend isn’t enough so I put a 180 degree bend in a 180 degree bend
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
[quote="Matt K"]Yo dawg I heard open wraps 180 degree bend isn’t enough so I put a 180 degree bend in a 180 degree bend[/quote] It definitely is bendy. Maybe the artist they designed it with wanted the feel of a traditional wrap but was tired of water accumulation? Now if only I could figure out if there is any function to the wrap on the David Rejano Shires besides looking really cool.
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
[quote="Matt K"]Yo dawg I heard open wraps 180 degree bend isn’t enough so I put a 180 degree bend in a 180 degree bend[/quote]
I think ya gotz to do a 360 on yer thinkin’ there, boyo!
I think ya gotz to do a 360 on yer thinkin’ there, boyo!
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
It's a Japan only model. Same heavy one piece soldered bell as the others. The rotor core is made of a heavy bronze material. The slide has some of the 396-A elements to it, including rose tubes and a brass crook, and a sterling pipe. With them continuing to use that heavy bell and fixed pipes, the large bore Xenos are a dead end in terms of design. They should go back to what they were doing in the 90s and early 2000s -- taking classic designs and then making them better and more consistent. I tried one, and the owner sounded really great on it, but for me it felt too tight, unresponsive, and exactly like the Xeno models we are familiar with in the states.
Just like tonkotsu ramen, castella, and katsu-don. None of that stuff is Japanese in origin, but Japan got so good at reimagining it that it's Japanese now.
Just like tonkotsu ramen, castella, and katsu-don. None of that stuff is Japanese in origin, but Japan got so good at reimagining it that it's Japanese now.
- hornbuilder
- Posts: 1384
- Joined: May 02, 2018
"rose tubes and a brass crook"
You mean New York Bach, right?? Edwards didn't pioneer it.
You mean New York Bach, right?? Edwards didn't pioneer it.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="hornbuilder"]"rose tubes and a brass crook"
You mean New York Bach, right?? Edwards didn't pioneer it.[/quote]
Might be, I don't pretend to know a thing about New York Bachs. I did say rose tubes, brass crook, AND a [permanent] sterling pipe, which is Edwards in my mind. Joe did say the outer slide on the 396 was based on an old unique Bach slide he had. Edwards currently uses it and that's what I'm very familiar with.
If all three of those combined elements are from a New York Bach horn I was completely ignorant of that fact.
You mean New York Bach, right?? Edwards didn't pioneer it.[/quote]
Might be, I don't pretend to know a thing about New York Bachs. I did say rose tubes, brass crook, AND a [permanent] sterling pipe, which is Edwards in my mind. Joe did say the outer slide on the 396 was based on an old unique Bach slide he had. Edwards currently uses it and that's what I'm very familiar with.
If all three of those combined elements are from a New York Bach horn I was completely ignorant of that fact.
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
[quote="Kbiggs"]I think ya gotz to do a 360 on yer thinkin’ there, boyo![/quote] Looks like it IS so that the air goes around in the same direction as it does in the rest of the horn.
"Also, when using the F tube, the flow of breath is designed to be in the same direction as when using the B♭ tube, so you can feel a natural blowing feeling that is highly compatible even when switching between tubes."
<LINK_TEXT text="https://jp.yamaha.com/products/musical_ ... oduct-tabs">https://jp.yamaha.com/products/musical_instruments/winds/trombones/ysl-825/feature.html#product-tabs</LINK_TEXT>
It's always interesting to see what are listed as "features" on trombones. They apparently are using a two piece valve casing with a bronze bearing plate, kinda like a Meinlschmidt Open Flow. They also describe the valve cap as nickel silver compared to brass on the normal Xeno horns? I always thought those were Nickel Silver as well.
"Also, when using the F tube, the flow of breath is designed to be in the same direction as when using the B♭ tube, so you can feel a natural blowing feeling that is highly compatible even when switching between tubes."
<LINK_TEXT text="https://jp.yamaha.com/products/musical_ ... oduct-tabs">https://jp.yamaha.com/products/musical_instruments/winds/trombones/ysl-825/feature.html#product-tabs</LINK_TEXT>
It's always interesting to see what are listed as "features" on trombones. They apparently are using a two piece valve casing with a bronze bearing plate, kinda like a Meinlschmidt Open Flow. They also describe the valve cap as nickel silver compared to brass on the normal Xeno horns? I always thought those were Nickel Silver as well.
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
[quote="greenbean"]…”same direction…” ??
What BS.[/quote] Yeah, I feel the same way, however I have also heard people state that as an "advantage" of Axial flow valves, and how having the air flowing in the same direction as the rest of the instrument around the valve wrap is better than the opposite way. Not sure why it would matter. I remember Yamaha making a big deal when the YBL-830 came out about how both valves how spun in the same direction, as I guess you get less smooth slurs when the rotary valves rotate in one direction compared to the other.
I have also seen ad copy from several makers regarding one piece or two piece cork barrels, both noting that one is better than the other, which I'm sure will change again in a few years.
What BS.[/quote] Yeah, I feel the same way, however I have also heard people state that as an "advantage" of Axial flow valves, and how having the air flowing in the same direction as the rest of the instrument around the valve wrap is better than the opposite way. Not sure why it would matter. I remember Yamaha making a big deal when the YBL-830 came out about how both valves how spun in the same direction, as I guess you get less smooth slurs when the rotary valves rotate in one direction compared to the other.
I have also seen ad copy from several makers regarding one piece or two piece cork barrels, both noting that one is better than the other, which I'm sure will change again in a few years.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
This is true voodoo. You ever look at the path air takes in a typical valve instrument? Every which way. Especially true for low brass. Why should a trombone be any different?
Pocket Rocket anyone? ;)
Pocket Rocket anyone? ;)
- afugate
- Posts: 671
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="tbonesullivan"]I have also seen ad copy from several makers regarding one piece or two piece cork barrels, both noting that one is better than the other, which I'm sure will change again in a few years.[/quote]
Just like tail fins on automobiles. :lol:
--Andy in OKC
Just like tail fins on automobiles. :lol:
--Andy in OKC
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
I wouldn't be so quick to call BS or voodoo. While it's common to look at brass instruments in terms of airflow, it's actually vibration flow, and standing waves, and nodes and antinodes. Plus, vibrations flow through bends differently than through straight tubes. Any change in the placement or radius or orientation of bends, or placement of support braces, is going to affect the playing. The tubing is attached together with braces, and it wouldn't surprise me if there's a difference between vibrations traveling the same direction vs. travelling opposite directions.
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
Am I missing something? Wouldn't there be an equivalent amount of air or vibrations flowing the same direction regardless which path the air took?
- sirisobhakya
- Posts: 445
- Joined: Jun 11, 2018
[quote="tbonesullivan"]I remember Yamaha making a big deal when the YBL-830 came out about how both valves how spun in the same direction, as I guess you get less smooth slurs when the rotary valves rotate in one direction compared to the other.[/quote]
Because one side of a conventional rotor is a continuous passage while another has at least some kind of separating wall and thus you blow against a solid surface, having the rotors rotating in the same direction resulting in similar slur feeling; either smoother or more disrupted.
The effect is noticeable: I have a German baritone which have 3rd and 4th valves rotate in the opposite direction and the slurs do feel disrupted. However in actual playing I doubt that anyone would care. It can be advertisement point, though. How would you otherwise advertise a product that stays largely the same for almost 60-70 years now if not with small details like this?
But I don’t think that reason can be applied to the wrap design and flow direction. But again, any small difference can be advertisement point.
Because one side of a conventional rotor is a continuous passage while another has at least some kind of separating wall and thus you blow against a solid surface, having the rotors rotating in the same direction resulting in similar slur feeling; either smoother or more disrupted.
The effect is noticeable: I have a German baritone which have 3rd and 4th valves rotate in the opposite direction and the slurs do feel disrupted. However in actual playing I doubt that anyone would care. It can be advertisement point, though. How would you otherwise advertise a product that stays largely the same for almost 60-70 years now if not with small details like this?
But I don’t think that reason can be applied to the wrap design and flow direction. But again, any small difference can be advertisement point.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Valve rotation direction usually comes down to whether or not the rotation interrupts the airflow from "open" to "attachment". One direction generally causes it to slowly close off "open" and slowly open "attachment". The other way directs the air off in a weird direction until the rotation is completed.
I've never heard of the reason being to stop the air going in different directions in separate tubes.
I've never heard of the reason being to stop the air going in different directions in separate tubes.
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
[quote="Doug Elliott"]I wouldn't be so quick to call BS or voodoo. While it's common to look at brass instruments in terms of airflow, it's actually vibration flow, and standing waves, and nodes and antinodes. Plus, vibrations flow through bends differently than through straight tubes. Any change in the placement or radius or orientation of bends, or placement of support braces, is going to affect the playing. The tubing is attached together with braces, and it wouldn't surprise me if there's a difference between vibrations traveling the same direction vs. travelling opposite directions.[/quote]
Exactly. I believe a lot of people say “airflow” when I think they really mean the vibration of the air column. Changes in the shape of the tubing, placement of braces and ferrules, etc., all affect the response and the sound. I do think there is some airflow involved,* but it’s less than what most people are led to believe.
*I remember playing West Side Story in college. The lead trumpet was a ringer, a guy who’d played in Las Vegas for years. One night it was cold in the hall, and as I watched him warm up, I could see a small cloud forming in front of his bell, and droplets of condensation (not spit) spraying outward. That was a small Eureka! moment for me.
Exactly. I believe a lot of people say “airflow” when I think they really mean the vibration of the air column. Changes in the shape of the tubing, placement of braces and ferrules, etc., all affect the response and the sound. I do think there is some airflow involved,* but it’s less than what most people are led to believe.
*I remember playing West Side Story in college. The lead trumpet was a ringer, a guy who’d played in Las Vegas for years. One night it was cold in the hall, and as I watched him warm up, I could see a small cloud forming in front of his bell, and droplets of condensation (not spit) spraying outward. That was a small Eureka! moment for me.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
That cloud was just halitosis! I've experienced the same thing coming from behind me, from the trumpet row, on big band sets.
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
[quote="harrisonreed"]That cloud was just halitosis! I've experienced the same thing coming from behind me, from the trumpet row, on big band sets.[/quote] I've seen this during the winter in community orchestra rehearsals. Our trumpet player had his horn in the trunk of his car all day, so he was putting out a lot of "fog". Coincidentally, it was a Yamaha Xeno Trumpet.