6 Bass Trombones: How they sound and stack up

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2023-06-04 2:33 a.m.

For a couple weeks, I will own 6 basses:

King 7B

Yamaha 613

Shires Curran

my Bach 50 monster project

50K3LG

B&S Meistersinger Sarastro

and I put them all through their paces.

<YOUTUBE id="Q3Py5DyBRZI">~~[media]~~https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3Py5DyBRZI</YOUTUBE>

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2023-06-04 9:11 a.m.

My 2 Cents. I'd use the King instead of the Yamaha 10 times over for commercial work. :)

EriKon · by **EriKon** » 2023-06-04 12:45 p.m.

Same for me. But that was a great video with really nice comparisons! Would have loved to hear a Conn in there as well, just for the comparison. Maybe next time when you have 6 bass trombones again ;) thanks for that, Aidan!

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2023-06-04 12:56 p.m.

The 7B is neat, but I can't use it myself- I can make it work short term with my Marcinkiewicz Teele mouthpiece, but that's a big enough difference between my normal piece that I would end up sounding worse. It's also got a lightness to the sound that I don't really dig, a bit shouty. It's definitely old school!

MrHCinDE · by **MrHCinDE** » 2023-06-04 1:11 p.m.

Thanks for sharing

You sound great on all of them but I particularly enjoyed how you sounded on the Yamaha and B&S.

The Yamaha just seems so easy for you to play and I like the clean and consistent tone.

I know you said the B&S takes a bit more effort to play but the sound is wonderful.

MTbassbone · by **MTbassbone** » 2023-06-04 1:14 p.m.

I tried a B&S Meistersinger Sarastro that had a bell wreath at Dillon Music probably around 4 years ago. It was hard to put down, but I felt it was almost too dark. Not enough brilliance.

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2023-06-04 1:22 p.m.

The Curran bell is a BII 7Y with an annealing treatment. A5, maybe?

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2023-06-04 1:36 p.m.

[quote="GabrielRice"]The Curran bell is a BII 7Y with an annealing treatment. A5, maybe?[/quote]

Yes, someone gave told me it was a BII7YA5 elsewhere- now I know! In any case, great bell. Very soft.

[quote="MTbassbone"]I tried a B&S Meistersinger Sarastro that had a bell wreath at Dillon Music probably around 4 years ago. It was hard to put down, but I felt it was almost too dark. Not enough brilliance.[/quote]

Yes, it can be really dark, but if you put the right input in it really colors up but doesn't lose that dark character. I love it!

[quote="MrHCinDE"]

The Yamaha just seems so easy for you to play and I like the clean and consistent tone.

I know you said the B&S takes a bit more effort to play but the sound is wonderful.[/quote]

Yes, the Yamaha really is a great horn- nothing special but it just has that classic sound.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2023-06-04 1:59 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]The 7B is neat, but I can't use it myself- I can make it work short term with my Marcinkiewicz Teele mouthpiece, but that's a big enough difference between my normal piece that I would end up sounding worse. It's also got a lightness to the sound that I don't really dig, a bit shouty. It's definitely old school![/quote]
I respect that and not arguing. But the King, on the recording, has color and zip. The Yamaha sounds like a Yamaha. Only my 2 cents.

Conn100HGuy · by **Conn100HGuy** » 2023-06-04 3:49 p.m.

Great video and explanations of the nuances of each horn. Thanks!

u_2bobone · by **u_2bobone** » 2023-06-04 6:12 p.m.

Thanks for all the effort ! I totally agree with your top choice of the B&S Meistersinger "Sorastro" even though I own and love my King 8B [which looks exactly like your 7B --- what's the difference?]. You sounded great on all of them but the B&S sounded like you were in control of the instrument instead of the other way around. Whodathunkit !

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2023-06-04 6:47 p.m.

Surprisingly, the George Curran model had some pretty hard articulations on the bordogni legato descending lines. Not sure if that was you or the horn. Not my fave.

The Yamaha sounded dull and flat in the upper register on those arpeggios. You could hear the quality of the horn change. Sounded tubby in the low register. I've noticed that too on my Yamaha. Given that, I would definitely not use that in a commercial/ big band setting, where you might be required to play up there every other chart, if I had access to that King. You were making large adjustments for intonation on this one. This would be the absolute last choice for me for big band, with that tubby sound.

The King ... Lol, why are you selling that one?? That was the third best sounding one on these recordings, and the clear winner for big band. You split some notes, probably because you have a mouthpiece you're not used to in there. Smooth legatos, very good clear sound, lows sounded great and not tubby, and you were barely adjusting for intonation.

Bach Monster project. Yeah, you got me. You probably had a ton of time on that horn, but yeah, the best of the bunch. Where can I get mine?

Bach K valve. It's just in the middle somewhere.

The B&S sounded nice. Your playing wasn't as smooth on it as the Monster Bach though. I guess that could be preference, but that one is #2 for me.

I think if you could only have one horn from this bunch, for you and based on these recordings, I'd stick with the Monster Bach. That could probably do just as well in a big band as in a legit setting. If you could only have TWO horns, I'd add the King in for the commercial stuff.

Hearing the Yamaha in the mix of all these ... the Yamaha basses are even further removed than I thought. Not just the 830.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2023-06-04 7:50 p.m.

So far, I've been told I sound the best on every single instrument except the 50K. :)

Boneuphtoner · by **Boneuphtoner** » 2023-06-04 8:48 p.m.

What a wonderful comparison! We should be so lucky to have such a wonderful assortment at our disposal! For what I like, I thought the Shires George Curran had the best overall tone on the Bordogni, but I think your articulations seemed ever so slightly better on some of the other horns.

JeffBone44 · by **JeffBone44** » 2023-06-04 8:59 p.m.

I’ve never heard of the B&S Meistersinger Sarastro until today. What does B&S stand for? I looked for a company website but can’t locate it. Some descriptions of the horn say made in Germany. I’d like to know about the history and development of this model.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2023-06-04 9:00 p.m.

[quote="2bobone"]even though I own and love my King 8B [which looks exactly like your 7B --- what's the difference?].[/quote]

The 8B is a larger instrument throughout- much larger after the valves and tuning slide, then bell taper. It's a much more orchestral horn. I'd love to try one someday!

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2023-06-04 9:00 p.m.

[quote="JeffBone44"]I’ve never heard of the B&S Meistersinger Sarastro until today. What does B&S stand for? I looked for a company website but can’t locate it. Some descriptions of the horn say made in Germany. I’d like to know about the history and development of this model.[/quote]

The Sarastro was developed with Carl Lenthe as a kind of hybrid American/German style bass. They are made in the same factory as Courtois is now.

JeffBone44 · by **JeffBone44** » 2023-06-04 9:02 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="JeffBone44" post_id="211602" time="1685926762" user_id="15834">
I’ve never heard of the B&S Meistersinger Sarastro until today. What does B&S stand for? I looked for a company website but can’t locate it. Some descriptions of the horn say made in Germany. I’d like to know about the history and development of this model.[/quote]

The Sarastro was developed with Carl Lenthe as a kind of hybrid American/German style bass. They are made in the same factory as Courtois is now.
</QUOTE>

Thanks for the info!

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2023-06-04 9:02 p.m.

At 1:53 in the recording, on the King, the low note kind of chokes. I'm assuming that's a function of the horn. Can you comment on why that low cadence note is a little pulled back? I'm just using my first King in a while, and the whole line seems built with more commercial punch, and seem to need a completely different approach and for seemingly a different purpose from other horns.

Also liked the B&S. Nice sound. The monster horn seemed to have a bit more of the familiar Bach sound. I'm not really a Bach guy but I like that sound on bass. I'm skeptical that I could or would ever need to use a 562/578 dual bore slide. As a tenor player who just has to pick up a bass and be able to make a predictable sound on it, I'm keyed in to the smallest kit that makes the right noise. But thanks for the perspective of the various valves and bore profiles.

Also I have to say that the sound often changes much less between horns than the feel. It was interesting to hear some actual difference in sound between horns.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2023-06-04 9:06 p.m.

Aidan, do you have a way to take bore measurements? I've always been curious as to whether the attachment tubing on a 7B is .562" (like a Duo Gravis) or if it's larger. I once had a chance to compare a 7B with a Benge 290 and the Benge's attachment tubing was larger, but I didn't have measuring tools with me.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2023-06-04 9:07 p.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]At 1:53 in the recording, on the King, the low note kind of chokes. I'm assuming that's a function of the horn.[/quote]

Just me running out of air at the end of a phrase, nothing really particular about the instrument, more about the combination and how comfortable it feels to play this kind of music (not extremely).

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2023-06-04 9:09 p.m.

[quote="JohnL"]Aidan, do you have a way to take bore measurements? I've always been curious as to whether the attachment tubing on a 7B is .562" (like a Duo Gravis) or if it's larger. I once had a chance to compare a 7B with a Benge 290 and the Benge's attachment tubing was larger, but I didn't have measuring tools with me.[/quote]

Yup, like the other Kings, it's the same bore through the valves as the slide. In this case, .562.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2023-06-04 9:12 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]Yup, like the other Kings, it's the same bore through the valves as the slide. In this case, .562.[/quote]
I have a suspicion that the 8B is larger, but I don't know anyone local who has one that I can measure.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2023-06-04 9:15 p.m.

[quote="JohnL"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="211611" time="1685927359" user_id="3131">Yup, like the other Kings, it's the same bore through the valves as the slide. In this case, .562.[/quote]
I have a suspicion that the 8B is larger, but I don't know anyone local who has one that I can measure.
</QUOTE>

That's why I hedged my statement above about the 8B... I actually don't know what they are in the valve section.

Digidog · by **Digidog** » 2023-06-05 5:38 a.m.

Thanks for a great review and run-down of each horn!

For what it's worth, the King and the B&S came out as the best to me - both playing- and sound wise.

It was interesting to hear the 50K, but though it sounded good the valves made a lot of noise which distracted me a bit too much. The Yamaha sounded as I expected it to, but I have never liked the upper registers on any Yamaha - be it bass, tenor or alto - and tough I know why I don't like playing Yamahas in that register, I can't really put my finger on what makes me find them so unattractive there. I have played Yamahas ever since I started playing the trombone (a 354 which I had until high school), and I like a lot of what their trombones bring, but never ever have I liked their upper registers. Not to play, and not to hear.

One thing I'll take from a survey like this, is that there will always be trade-offs with any construction and solution. There will always be advantages and drawbacks on every horn, and the trick seems to find the combination of which that suits each individual's playing the best.

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2023-06-05 7:35 a.m.

Dude...to my ear you sound best on single bore slides.

Retrobone · by **Retrobone** » 2023-06-05 7:43 a.m.

[quote="JeffBone44"]I’ve never heard of the B&S Meistersinger Sarastro until today. What does B&S stand for? I looked for a company website but can’t locate it. Some descriptions of the horn say made in Germany. I’d like to know about the history and development of this model.[/quote]

VEB (Volks eigener Betrieb) Blechblas-und Signalinstrumentenfabrik, Markneukirchen

as it was formerly known before German reunification.

Now it's just B & S. Still in Markneukirchen

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2023-06-05 8:25 a.m.

[quote="GabrielRice"]Dude...to my ear you sound best on single bore slides.[/quote]
Agreed!!!!!!

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2023-06-05 8:51 a.m.

I don't think it's beating up on you, even though it seems like everyone is beating up on you, because there are clearly winners and there is clearly good playing in the video across the board. But when I heard you talk about your thoughts and what you prefer out of those horns it might be that you have a preference for subdued, tubby, meh bass trombones. Especially in a commercial setting.

:tongue:

When you said, oh my friend thinks the low notes are too punchy on this, I began to doubt that you are actually a trombonist. Are you secretly a euph player?

Someday we'll meet IRL Aiden and I'll buy you a beer man. You rock. Your playing, especially on those couple horns I liked, was really good.

ithinknot · by **ithinknot** » 2023-06-05 9:29 a.m.

[quote="GabrielRice"]Dude...to my ear you sound best on single bore slides.[/quote]

Yup.

Both the dualies, but much more so the Curran, have just a hint of "quack", like the articulation and the meat of the note have a tiny delay between them. On the Curran, I hear you manage that some of the time by softening the legato, but that doesn't work everywhere. I understand why you like it - orchestral/audition/standard - but it's not the most flattering or engaging option.

El Monstruo has fabulous depth and color, and seems like a better response for you. Would a single bore slide (...V?) with a bit more density and control up front stop you getting to The Heat quite so soon?

Like the Sarastro. A bit German, a bit mega-Holton. I can imagine that sound getting slightly woofy (not saying you did here) if not handled carefully. Just a guess, but something slightly German in that 'very conical round the back' way might match with smaller mpc throats - even the 95D-sized Tilz pieces don't get out of the .280s - but maybe the leadpipes were designed with American stuff in mind? Someone you know probably knows what CL plays on bass, just as a data point.

Anyway... interesting! Thanks.

spencercarran · by **spencercarran** » 2023-06-05 1:29 p.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="GabrielRice" post_id="211633" time="1685964929" user_id="102">
Dude...to my ear you sound best on single bore slides.[/quote]
Agreed!!!!!!
</QUOTE>
I tend to think almost everyone sounds better on single bore slides.

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2023-06-05 2:05 p.m.

I think people advocating for the King are being deceived by the recording. I've played all these basses at Aidan's and I also would not ever choose that 7B. In person it's very shouty, and not in a good way. It's just kind of blatty without color, whereas something like my 72H has lots of color and zing in a way that's perfect for big band and other commercial stuff. "All bark, no bite" is a good way of describing that particular 7B. Aidan's 613 is a much better instrument overall and works very well on commercial stuff. I've used it "in anger" at Disney and it was great. It's not the most interesting sound but it's certainly not tubby or dull either. It's just...bass trombone.

Also, if you think the B&S sounds good...it sounds 10 times as good in person. Just the most fabulous dark yet colorful sound, from either side of the bell.

blast · by **blast** » 2023-06-05 2:39 p.m.

Such tests as this basically tell the community how these trombones compare when played one after another, usually with the same mouthpiece. The trombones played here need, in some cases, very different approaches from the player....things that need months or years to understand. Don't read too much into this exercise and be put off an instrument you like. With all makers, you find the good, bad and ugly. You might have a monster duo gravis or yamaha...I've tried such examples. It's the same or worse with mouthpieces....many dismissed on 5 minutes in a comparison situation.

This is a bit of light- hearted fun. No more no less.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2023-06-05 4:22 p.m.

Used that much-maligned Yamaha in reading band this morning... Uh oh!

[quote="GabrielRice"]Dude...to my ear you sound best on single bore slides.[/quote]

[quote="blast"]Such tests as this basically tell the community how these trombones compare when played one after another, usually with the same mouthpiece.[/quote]

I think these two comments go hand in hand- I played all of them back to back with no break. Doing this at all is a huge time sink, so I wanted to bang out the recordings and not take all day. Therefore... I got used to the smallest, single-borest horns first.

If I were really serious about it, I'd play only one horn a day, record them in a large space with good equipment, and play better.... but that's a lot of effort!

[quote="harrisonreed"]

When you said, oh my friend thinks the low notes are too punchy on this, I began to doubt that you are actually a trombonist. Are you secretly a euph player?

[/quote]

This is an interesting point... people have different views on bass trombone low range. Should it have some more natural zing? Should it be even with the rest of the horn? Should it almost disappear? I used to be in the "more zing" camp, but I'm trying to aim more towards the middle of the spectrum so I can go either way depending on the musical need.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2023-06-05 4:30 p.m.

[quote="Finetales"]I think people advocating for the King are being deceived by the recording.[/quote]

Recordings do lie, but this seems like the kind of recording that wouldn't lie that much. I guess cell phones automatically compress audio. Maybe that's why I'm not hearing it.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2023-06-05 4:40 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]This is an interesting point... people have different views on bass trombone low range. Should it have some more natural zing? Should it be even with the rest of the horn? Should it almost disappear? I used to be in the "more zing" camp, but I'm trying to aim more towards the middle of the spectrum so I can go either way depending on the musical need.[/quote]
All of those things are as dependent on "how" you approach the horn as the horn itself. And then there's the mouthpiece.

I only had time to listen to part of it... I'll get back to it at some point.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2023-06-05 4:45 p.m.

Oh, and thanks everyone for the comments and feedback. I only wish you could all come listen in person.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2023-06-05 4:50 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]

All of those things are as dependent on "how" you approach the horn as the horn itself. And then there's the mouthpiece.

I only had time to listen to part of it... I'll get back to it at some point.[/quote]

Yes, and that's been most of my change over the last year or so- totally changing my approach, not really equipment (even though it might look like it).

BassBoneFL · by **BassBoneFL** » 2023-06-06 9:50 a.m.

[quote="Finetales"]I've used it "in anger" at Disney and it was great. It's not the most interesting sound but it's certainly not tubby or dull either. It's just...bass trombone.[/quote]

The guy who is the regular player in the Main St Phil at WDW Magic Kingdom has used a 7B for years. Most of the tenors there use 2Bs.

Fridge · by **Fridge** » 2023-06-06 10:32 a.m.

Good morning Aidan. I preferred the 7B. I really don’t like dark sounds. They really don’t record very well. Paul Faulise used to say that he wanted some sunshine in his sound. Yamaha maybe second on the list. My 2 cents worth.

Eddie Clark

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2023-06-06 1:39 p.m.

[quote="BassBoneFL"]The guy who is the regular player in the Main St Phil at WDW Magic Kingdom has used a 7B for years. Most of the tenors there use 2Bs.[/quote]

And I use my 72H at Disneyland!

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2023-06-06 2:22 p.m.

[quote="Fridge"]Good morning Aidan. I preferred the 7B. I really don’t like dark sounds. They really don’t record very well. Paul Faulise used to say that he wanted some sunshine in his sound. Yamaha maybe second on the list. My 2 cents worth.

Eddie Clark[/quote] Very true! I also play Electric 6 string and bass guitar, and the EQ settings I use when I play at home and when I play out are quite different. Good for solo work and good in an ensemble are way different. You need to have something that can cut through the mix, though I admit that is a vast oversimplification.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2023-06-06 3:27 p.m.

If everyone is “cutting through the mix”?

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2023-06-06 4:09 p.m.

There's also something to be said for laying a sonic foundation for its own presence without competing with everybody else trying to "cut through the mix."

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2023-06-06 4:23 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]There's also something to be said for laying a sonic foundation for its own presence without competing with everybody else trying to "cut through the mix."[/quote]

:clever:

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2023-06-06 6:28 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]If everyone is “cutting through the mix”?[/quote]

Possible if every instrument is cutting through a different frequency band of said mix, giving every instrument its own lane. Doable with EQing of course, hard to do (and often not desirable) in a trombone section though!

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2023-06-06 11:29 p.m.

It's also depending on what you are playing and the situation, as with anything. If someone does a lot of session / recording work, they probably wouldn't be using the same equipment as someone playing with a major symphony orchestra.

Almost all the playing I have done for the past 15 years or so has been with community orchestras, so I don't really have to worry about cutting through anything, except the horrible acoustics that many high school auditoriums have. But I might change my mouthpiece up a little for a concert depending on what function the bass trombone is playing. Am I the "high end definition" of the tuba player and/or bass section? Am I the bottom of the trombone section? Am I pretty much the bottom end for the bassoons?

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2023-06-07 9:15 a.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]There's also something to be said for laying a sonic foundation for its own presence without competing with everybody else trying to "cut through the mix."[/quote]

Which is why the Fender Precision is still the gold standard electric bass in the recording studio.

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2023-06-07 9:28 a.m.

I played two full seasons at the Boston Ballet from 2017-2019. I've subbed there semi-regularly for many years, but after a couple of productions it became clear that I needed to adjust some things about the sound I was making to better serve that particular orchestra in that particular pit. In short, I needed to do what Doug described - add to the weight of the tuba without much sizzle or shine on the sound. It's a small, live pit, with lots of plexiglass reflecting sound around. There is only so big the string sections can get in that space, so I don't need to produce a tremendous amount of volume. Playing the way I was used to for larger concert halls and larger orchestras made me stick out in ways that were not working.

I still needed to be able to play in a way that's natural to me though, so I adjusted the equipment; yellow brass slide crook rather than nickel, and usually a heavier yellow brass bell rather than the gold brass I had been playing.

More recently I'm back to mostly concert halls, and though I've kept the yellow brass crook I've been moving back to other components that get more shine and upper overtones.

Life is more interesting if you're willing to adapt.

blast · by **blast** » 2023-06-07 9:52 a.m.

Aidan, when you do another of these, as you will, try more time playing and less time talking as this video is more sonically illustrated opinions. Nice if people can draw their own conclusions about the instruments. For my money, the King 7B sounds more like my idea of a bass trombone than any of them. Old school ? Perhaps...but I'm old school now. Was it the instrument or the mouthpiece? I've never played a decent King 7B but some fine 6Bs. You have to blow Kings very differently. ...huge amounts of restraint. Same result with half the effort.

Think which instruments make the most interesting sound...that's a different question. That puts the Bach based monster into the equation .

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2023-06-07 10:07 a.m.

King and Monster Bach. Yup yup yup. Blast be blasting the knowledge.

"Same result, half the effort" -- that is like the philosophy for every horn/mouthpiece combo I've tried to put together (bass aside, I only had a borrowed bass). When I try other people's stuff and they rave about how "open" it is, I have ask them what they think "open" means. "It takes all the air you can give", yeah but nothing comes out the other end. It's like an open black hole. I'm tanked after a few seconds on some of these setups.

My horns are open. They take all the air and then send sound out into the hall.

BassBoneFL · by **BassBoneFL** » 2023-06-07 10:49 a.m.

[quote="blast"]when you do another of these, as you will, try more time playing and less time talking as this video is more sonically illustrated opinions.[/quote]

I was thinking the same thing as I watched/listened

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2023-06-07 11:33 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]"Same result, half the effort" -- that is like the philosophy for every horn/mouthpiece combo I've tried to put together (bass aside, I only had a borrowed bass). When I try other people's stuff and they rave about how "open" it is, I have ask them what they think "open" means. "It takes all the air you can give", yeah but nothing comes out the other end. It's like an open black hole. I'm tanked after a few seconds on some of these setups.

My horns are open. They take all the air and then send sound out into the hall.[/quote] I've never understood the "I need the most open mouthpiece / setup possible" idea. I got complements from my sound and projection when I was still playing my YBL-612 with a Faxx 1 1/2G, with the "tiny" .276" throat. It's a resonator not an air cannon, and I don't know where the "more air = more volume" thing came from. More vibration energy = more volume. Yes playing louder takes more air, but I can empty my lungs in about 1 second without buzzing even blowing through a 6 1/2AL.

Right now, I'm playing Pines of Rome, and it's a BLOW, and a major challenge to have enough air at all times to avoid letting any notes fade in dynamic. Efficiency is where it is at.

TomRiker · by **TomRiker** » 2023-06-07 12:14 p.m.

[quote="GabrielRice"]<QUOTE author="Doug Elliott" post_id="211797" time="1686082170" user_id="51">
There's also something to be said for laying a sonic foundation for its own presence without competing with everybody else trying to "cut through the mix."[/quote]

Which is why the Fender Precision is still the gold standard electric bass in the recording studio.
</QUOTE>

Yep! It's actually more about the mids than the bass.

bassclef · by **bassclef** » 2023-06-07 1:45 p.m.

[quote="blast"]You have to blow Kings very differently. ...huge amounts of restraint. Same result with half the effort.[/quote]
Totally agree. They also seem to prefer mouthpieces towards the smaller end of the spectrum as well, in my experience. I've found that "overpowering" a 6B or 7B with a large mouthpiece (both in terms of cup volume and throat size) produces exactly the results Finetales describes. I've also found that effect can be tamed somewhat with a heavier blank mouthpiece. I've spent considerable time on both of those models and found a Stork 1.5 to be a great match, for example. So much so, that I sent a couple of them to Bob Reeves to have the shanks altered for a better fit in those King receivers. (Anyone want those, by the way? :D I've reluctantly moved on from Kings due to ergonomic issues which I grew tired of throwing money at in attempt to solve them)

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2023-06-07 2:11 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]Oh, and thanks everyone for the comments and feedback. I only wish you could all come listen in person.[/quote]

I wasn't kidding about this- these all sound pretty different in person.

I won't say my phone mic lies. You can hear my bad phrasing, bad time, intonation problems, and inconsistency. But the details of the sound of each horn are represented in a strange way on the phone (Google Pixel 6). That's why I wax poetic about each horn, to give impressions of how they sound behind the horn, and also what others have said in person.

My new mic interface showed up last night... I just might make this video again but with a real microphone. I'll give that a test today.

ithinknot · by **ithinknot** » 2023-06-07 2:48 p.m.

Make whatever kind of video you want, and talk as much as you want. You're doing this for fun (and all that sweet sweet ad money). And you already provided the timestamps so anyone can skip the chat if they wish.

I agree that the King sounded good in this recording, and if you and Finetales say that it's shouty and a bit 2D in person then that sonically illustrated opinion has some value too.

Even if you make pure faux-scientific demos, you'll get the usual objections - the mic doesn't capture the full impression, your house isn't a good or relevant acoustic, each horn deserves a different mouthpiece, equal practice time and an optimized mic placement, etc etc - all of which are true but boring.

modelerdc · by **modelerdc** » 2023-06-07 3:52 p.m.

Get a hold of a YSL 421G, and if you like it put the 421G bell on the 613, and you'll wind up with a very good commercial horn.

There's something to be said for a horn that's easy to play. No matter how much you like the sound of a horn, there's a point where you can get better results with one that's easier to play. I remember the Miraphone and Alexander tubas that were popular when I was in college have largely been replaced with York style piston tubas. The older tubas had great sounds, lots of character, but the newer tubas a just easier to get results on. I feel the same way about some vintage bass trombones. The best of the newer ones are just easier to get consistent results over the range, including dynamics than the old ones. For this reason I've sold off most of my older Conn, Holton, and Bach instruments.

slidefunk · by **slidefunk** » 2023-06-07 5:15 p.m.

Hey Aiden,

To my ears, the B&S has the most character out of any of the horns and it's not even close. Beautiful sounding instrument!

The Shires is probably the most versatile of the bunch, those 7 bells can really do it all. You see a lot of Shires out in the field these days, would fit in most sections. Two piece bell vs the one pieces you are normally drawn to. Sweeter, more dialed in.

Your monster has good character and a broad sound, but seems to be a bit dynamically limited. Might be ideal for certain romantic repertoire?

The other horns, IMHO, are unremarkable. The King and Yamaha would be fine, affordable options for someone looking for a double. I did not care for the Bach at all.

My two cents. Cheers!

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2023-06-07 6:38 p.m.

Who's ready for some so-so recordings?

I have some here I took today with my world class SM57 and Focusrite setup in my acoustically perfect studio.

I got out the Curran, 7B, and B&S today (the 7B is getting sold tomorrow!), plus one mystery horn in the Cimeras. There's an extra Cimera with one of the horns again, this time with a different mouthpiece. See if you can figure out what is what.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing">https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1IqWDZfyVUPET3-qzne3gDs1k3lRE3DuC?usp=sharing</LINK_TEXT>

MAliesch · by **MAliesch** » 2023-06-07 11:16 p.m.

Were they recorded back to back? Sounds like you're more familiar with the pieces in the later numbers.

Favorites for me:

Arbans 2, on account of the attacks

Cimera 5, due to evenness in tone between registers (even though it sounds a bit like a leaky horn/valves)

And Jazz 3, because it sounds more like you're playing the music, rather than just the notes, if that makes sense. Maybe just having more fun, or it's less work for you.

Elow · by **Elow** » 2023-06-07 11:34 p.m.

What is Cimera 5??? I hear valves, contra?

EriKon · by **EriKon** » 2023-06-08 2:49 a.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]Who's ready for some so-so recordings?

I have some here I took today with my world class SM57 and Focusrite setup in my acoustically perfect studio.

I got out the Curran, 7B, and B&S today (the 7B is getting sold tomorrow!), plus one mystery horn in the Cimeras. There's an extra Cimera with one of the horns again, this time with a different mouthpiece. See if you can figure out what is what.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing">https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1IqWDZfyVUPET3-qzne3gDs1k3lRE3DuC?usp=sharing</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]

Very nice.

For Jazz I definitely prefer examples 1 and 2 soundwise which are surprisingly similar to me (on mobile speakers). 3 seems to back off a little there and for some of the runs it seems like you have to fight more on that version. Also the sound might be too woofy for a bigband context for example. The other two examples have more brightness and some more punch.

Arban sounds great on No 3, very full sound but clear articulation. Articulation seems to back off on No. 1 there.

I haven't listened to all Cimeras, but I also like the sound of No 3 there.

MTbassbone · by **MTbassbone** » 2023-06-08 3:32 a.m.

Arbans-2

Cimera- tie between 2 and 4

Jazz- 2

blast · by **blast** » 2023-06-08 3:36 a.m.

Arban 2 sounded best overall to me...real trombone sound. Camera 1 was worst for sound ...very tubby.

MStarke · by **MStarke** » 2023-06-08 4:14 a.m.

Jazz - 1 (with 2 being a close second)

Arban - 1 although articulations seemed to be a bit more challenging

Cimera - I liked 1, 2 and 3. All different, but no real favorite for me

What's interesting is that preferences expressed here are of course not just focusing on very isolated aspects, but all seem to take sound, articulation, intonation, phrasing, vibrato etc. into account.

From the videos - though it's a few days ago - some impressions:

- The Shires Curran sounded good, but not very interesting

- The Bach with the K valves had a very nice general sound, with maybe some limitations in playability

- Your custom/monster whatever bass sounds great - however to my ears very much oriented towards large orchestra settings

- The B&S sounded great and very interesting (actually a very positive suprise to me!)

- The King obviously sounds different than all the others and less allround, but could be great in suitable settings

- The Yamaha sounded good and very playable, though not very special

Overall very nice playing btw! Thanks for putting this out into public. In my opinion there is no perfect format for doing these comparisons, but also your videos are not just interesting, but do carry valuable information. Love your channel!

blast · by **blast** » 2023-06-08 5:34 a.m.

Didn't notice the jazz clips....jazz 1 is my preference of those and on a par with arban 2.

TheBoneRanger · by **TheBoneRanger** » 2023-06-08 6:22 a.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="211693" time="1685997955" user_id="3131">
Oh, and thanks everyone for the comments and feedback. I only wish you could all come listen in person.[/quote]

I wasn't kidding about this- these all sound pretty different in person.

I won't say my phone mic lies. You can hear my bad phrasing, bad time, intonation problems, and inconsistency. But the details of the sound of each horn are represented in a strange way on the phone (Google Pixel 6). That's why I wax poetic about each horn, to give impressions of how they sound behind the horn, and also what others have said in person.

My new mic interface showed up last night... I just might make this video again but with a real microphone. I'll give that a test today.
</QUOTE>

I was about to ask about which microphone you used for the video, then spotted this post. I’m sure we all know that a tiny phone microphone, compressed, side-on instead of bell facing, is obviously not the perfect way to judge tone. Then there’s whatever headphones the commenters are using…

For me, I think the video shows that smaller, brighter horns are easier to record.

I’ve been doing a lot of recording lately while settling into a new horn, using a Shure MV88+. It’s staggering the difference microphone placement makes. I was ready to bin the horn for a day or two, until I found a decent mic position. User error…

Perhaps I’ll do a similar video sometime soon, with my Bach w/Meinlschmidt rotors, Edwards, and a Shires.

blast · by **blast** » 2023-06-08 7:35 a.m.

It's all just a bit of fun. The important thing is how a particular trombone goes down at work. If you don't work with them, it's ALL just fun.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2023-06-08 7:46 a.m.

FWIW, a good general setup for miking this sort of thing is to do a 15-20cm stereo pair (or single spot) about 2m in front of the bell and 1m above axis, in either cardiod or Omni. It's a near-coincident pair that will avoid phasing on phone speakers, and sounds natural. Pan hard left/right. You can introduce a basic convolution reverb if your room blows, and make sure you bring the mics a little closer but same general setup, and definitely use cardiod.

If the room rocks and is big, and you want to hear it as close as possible to "real", you can do a slightly wider 50cm Omni pair in the exact middle of the room , maybe 2m above where the listener would be, pan hard left/right, and enjoy.

I'm going to listen to these when I get a chance and won't look at the reveal before I do. I'll in the process of moving to Kansas on Sunday, and things are crazy.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2023-06-08 2:14 p.m.

Arbans

1. 7B with 1 1/2G

2. Curran

3. Sarastro

Cimera

1. 7B with Teele

2. Curran

3. Sarastro

4. 7B with 1 1/2G

5. Laetszch contra

Jazz

1. 7B with 1 1/2G

2. Curran

3. Sarastro

blast · by **blast** » 2023-06-08 3:26 p.m.

Ha ha ha !!!!! There you are....all preconceptions removed and I make some amusing choices....particularly that I thought that the 7b is both the best and worst !!! Must be the change of mouthpiece <EMOJI seq="1f923" tseq="1f923">🤣</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f923" tseq="1f923">🤣</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f923" tseq="1f923">🤣</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f923" tseq="1f923">🤣</EMOJI>

Elow · by **Elow** » 2023-06-08 3:35 p.m.

Wow, my favorite was 3, i thought it was the Curran, i did not like the Curran though. The Sarastro sounded a little woofy in the earlier recordings but sounds good with the real microphones, i bet it sounds even better in person.

JeffBone44 · by **JeffBone44** » 2023-06-08 4:29 p.m.

I really liked that Cimera piece, what is it from?

WilliamLang · by **WilliamLang** » 2023-06-08 4:34 p.m.

It's from 55 Phrasing Studies for Trombone by Jaroslav Cimera (and there's 60 studies in it!) Nice book for short etude work and reading practice. Steve Lange from the BSO put up a lot of them on his instagram as well.

JeffBone44 · by **JeffBone44** » 2023-06-08 4:41 p.m.

[quote="WilliamLang"]It's from 55 Phrasing Studies for Trombone by Jaroslav Cimera (and there's 60 studies in it!) Nice book for short etude work and reading practice. Steve Lange from the BSO put up a lot of them on his instagram as well.[/quote]

Thanks!

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2023-06-08 5:12 p.m.

[quote="blast"]Ha ha ha !!!!! There you are....all preconceptions removed and I make some amusing choices....particularly that I thought that the 7b is both the best and worst !!! Must be the change of mouthpiece <EMOJI seq="1f923" tseq="1f923">🤣</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f923" tseq="1f923">🤣</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f923" tseq="1f923">🤣</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f923" tseq="1f923">🤣</EMOJI>[/quote]

It really did only want a 1 1/2G, even though the teele is barely larger. Very picky.

spencercarran · by **spencercarran** » 2023-06-08 11:18 p.m.

Another vote for the Sarastro, both on youtube and the blind recordings. Sorta has some Holton vibes but with the quirkiness smoothed out. Very nice-sounding horn, though I imagine it behaves differently enough from horns in the style of Curran or monster Bach that it would take an adjustment period before you'd want to use it on a paid gig.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2023-06-09 1:40 a.m.

[quote="spencercarran"]Another vote for the Sarastro[/quote]

The B&S may be the best sounding horn I've had through the collection. It sure does play totally differently, though- that last 10% of the sound doesn't come until you are doing it juuuust right. That correct way isn't too hard, it's just way different than my other stuff. Hopefully that means it survives the purges...

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2023-06-09 2:03 a.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="blast" post_id="212021" time="1686252386" user_id="52">
Ha ha ha !!!!! There you are....all preconceptions removed and I make some amusing choices....particularly that I thought that the 7b is both the best and worst !!! Must be the change of mouthpiece <EMOJI seq="1f923" tseq="1f923">🤣</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f923" tseq="1f923">🤣</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f923" tseq="1f923">🤣</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f923" tseq="1f923">🤣</EMOJI>[/quote]

It really did only want a 1 1/2G, even though the teele is barely larger. Very picky.
</QUOTE> I know the Duo Gravis / 6B was designed around a 1 1/2G type piece, so maybe the 7b and 8b were as well?

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2023-06-09 2:13 a.m.

[quote="tbonesullivan"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="212043" time="1686258729" user_id="3131">

It really did only want a 1 1/2G, even though the teele is barely larger. Very picky.[/quote] I know the Duo Gravis / 6B was designed around a 1 1/2G type piece, so maybe the 7b and 8b were as well?
</QUOTE>

The 7B sure. It's surprising because the Teele is just a slightly larger George Roberts piece, it's really just a big 1 1/2G.

trombonedemon · by **trombonedemon** » 2023-06-11 12:49 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]There's also something to be said for laying a sonic foundation for its own presence without competing with everybody else trying to "cut through the mix."[/quote]

Well put Doug. I'm liking him on the German horn. That horn seems to be nice until it's time not to be.

BrianJohnston · by **BrianJohnston** » 2023-06-11 4:54 p.m.

[quote="spencercarran"]I tend to think almost everyone sounds better on single bore slides.[/quote]

Dual bore slides on alto DEFINITELY 100% sound better than single bore.

bachMeuphere · by **bachMeuphere** » 2023-12-02 8:42 p.m.

This video was super helpful. Researching for a bass bone myself right now. Thanks for the info!

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2023-12-02 11:40 p.m.

I should probably make another, actually

WilliamLang · by **WilliamLang** » 2023-12-03 1:36 a.m.

I would love to hear your thoughts on your basses at the moment personally. It's been a great series to follow.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2023-12-07 7:37 p.m.

Here's two:

<YOUTUBE id="uLCXi7B8poE">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/uLCXi7B8poE</YOUTUBE>

The rest of this week I'm on large tenor... I think I'll make a day next week and get all the horns out.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2023-12-07 7:47 p.m.

I think the Yamaha was the standout winner in that video. Bit warmer sound, the lines all seemed to lay better on it, and your intonation was better overall on the Yamaha. If you're selling the Yamaha, what are you keeping besides the Shires?

The Shires sounds like it wants to be first trombone, rather than support the trombones.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2023-12-07 8:05 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]I think the Yamaha was the standout winner in that video. Bit warmer sound, the lines all seemed to lay better on it, and your intonation was better overall on the Yamaha. If you're selling the Yamaha, what are you keeping besides the Shires?

The Shires sounds like it wants to be first trombone, rather than support the trombones.[/quote]

It does have some wideness to it that sounds great at lower volumes. Perhaps this is what we would call a not-even sound- it definitely zings up quickly with volume, where the Shires will sound pretty similar as I get louder. The higher overtones are still present when played at lower volumes on that horn. I tried playing some excerpts on both and the Yamaha falls apart in those circumstances, something I ran into trying to use my old 613 in a wind ensemble.

I do love both horns and styles... the Shires is a new slide and an unfamiliar mouthpiece at the moment, so it's definitely less comfortable.

I still have 2 other basses I use most of the time that will be included in a future video, one of which is a sister Yamaha to the 613.

ScottZigler · by **ScottZigler** » 2023-12-07 9:59 p.m.

Aidan -

Have you ever played the Shires Bollinger? Back in 2017, Ben Griffin mentioned they play on opposite ends of the spectrum:

<LINK_TEXT text="viewtopic.php?p=12527#p12527">https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?p=12527#p12527</LINK_TEXT>

I agree with his take on the Bollinger, but I've never played on a Curran to compare. Might this be what you're trying to adjust with the single bore slide? Good luck, and keep sending us video updates!

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2023-12-08 12:18 a.m.

[quote="ScottZigler"]Aidan -

Have you ever played the Shires Bollinger? Back in 2017, Ben Griffin mentioned they play on opposite ends of the spectrum:

<LINK_TEXT text="viewtopic.php?p=12527#p12527">https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?p=12527#p12527</LINK_TEXT>

I agree with his take on the Bollinger, but I've never played on a Curran to compare. Might this be what you're trying to adjust with the single bore slide? Good luck, and keep sending us video updates![/quote]

I have, but not for a long time. I remember really liking it. I think all three are a little too focused on their gig for me to use full time!

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6 Bass Trombones: How they sound and stack up