King 3bf for an old Conn user
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I picked up a 3bf for quintet use with the hope that the extra brightness would link the sound more to the trumpets than the horn. Good news is that part of the plan worked. The part that I'm still working on is making peace with the "King" nature of the horn. I'm an old Conn guy, and I like that fat, dark, sometimes grainy sound that you get on small and medium Conns. That sound is kind of stuck in my head, and I can't swap it out with the 3b sound. The brighter 3bf sound is exactly what I needed, but I find myself fighting the horn trying to "fix" the sound to make it sound more Conn. How do you old Conn players make the switch mentally to picking up a 3b or similar? I want to just go with the sound the 3b makes, because fighting it leads to cracked notes and some resistance/split tone around high G-Ab.
- MrHCinDE
- Posts: 1039
- Joined: Jul 01, 2018
I had to make some similar adjustments after mainly playing Conn for about 25 years.
1) Don’t fight it, I never had any success with trying to overpower any horn but particularly the upper register on my 3b becomes much more splittable and harsh the more I try to force it, stay relaxed, the upper range is comfortably in there somewhere.
2) Don’t assume just because it is a .508” it will work better with more air than a Conn .500”, for me less is more, otherwise it just tends to back up a little. The brighter sound will cut through anyway.
3) Spend plenty of time on Rochut or similar, you might have gotten the horn for some more brightness but in the quintet probably also need to play a fair bit of legato and block chord playing.
1) Don’t fight it, I never had any success with trying to overpower any horn but particularly the upper register on my 3b becomes much more splittable and harsh the more I try to force it, stay relaxed, the upper range is comfortably in there somewhere.
2) Don’t assume just because it is a .508” it will work better with more air than a Conn .500”, for me less is more, otherwise it just tends to back up a little. The brighter sound will cut through anyway.
3) Spend plenty of time on Rochut or similar, you might have gotten the horn for some more brightness but in the quintet probably also need to play a fair bit of legato and block chord playing.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
3B is right down the middle. It's not bright, it's not dark, it's just trombone. Let it make the sound it wants to make and it rewards you.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Burgerbob"]3B is right down the middle. It's not bright, it's not dark, it's just trombone. Let it make the sound it wants to make and it rewards you.[/quote]
:good:
Richard & Aidan are right. The King 3BF really plays itself if you don't fight it. I've never had any trouble playing mine, and I'm otherwise mostly a Conn player.
I often do use slightly different mouthpieces depending on repeprtoire. Otherwise, playing a 3BF is a breeze.
;)
:good:
Richard & Aidan are right. The King 3BF really plays itself if you don't fight it. I've never had any trouble playing mine, and I'm otherwise mostly a Conn player.
I often do use slightly different mouthpieces depending on repeprtoire. Otherwise, playing a 3BF is a breeze.
;)
- spencercarran
- Posts: 689
- Joined: Oct 17, 2020
[quote="Burgerbob"]Let it make the sound it wants to make and it rewards you.[/quote]
I feel like this advice applies pretty well to most instruments, not just Kings. Trying to force any horn to play "like" another horn gets frustrating fast.
I feel like this advice applies pretty well to most instruments, not just Kings. Trying to force any horn to play "like" another horn gets frustrating fast.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Yes, I'm just stuck pretty hard in that Conn rut, and instinctively I'm trying to push the 3b into the same sound. Saying "don't do that" is easier said than done. The 3b might be middle of the road compared to a 2b, but less so compared to the things I play (Recording, 32h, 79h, 48h, Yamaha 455, etc).
I've been using a Doug Elliot D cup. It's just a little livelier than the E in the 3b. I like the way the D sounds and acts aside from a few chipped notes, and maybe overcorrect on high notes. It gets a little trumpety when I push it. That's actually what I like about it, but its also easy to get carried away with that. Even my 48h has a darker overall sound.
I'm definitely a "follow the horn" kind of player, I just have to get used to where this one wants to go.
I've been using a Doug Elliot D cup. It's just a little livelier than the E in the 3b. I like the way the D sounds and acts aside from a few chipped notes, and maybe overcorrect on high notes. It gets a little trumpety when I push it. That's actually what I like about it, but its also easy to get carried away with that. Even my 48h has a darker overall sound.
I'm definitely a "follow the horn" kind of player, I just have to get used to where this one wants to go.
- spencercarran
- Posts: 689
- Joined: Oct 17, 2020
Yeah, it's a process of getting to know the horn. I spent a couple hours trying to handle my 613H like my Holton 180 and wondering why it was such an unplayable piece of garbage. Once I started to treat the new horn on its own terms things began to settle in better.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="spencercarran"]Yeah, it's a process of getting to know the horn. I spent a couple hours trying to handle my 613H like my Holton 180 and wondering why it was such an unplayable piece of garbage. Once I started to treat the new horn on its own terms things began to settle in better.[/quote]
I would normally say that a horn that doesn't match my style isn't worth having, but in this case, I got this horn for a purpose, and it works for that purpose. The requirements of the quintet are kind of leading me into a change. I'll still be a Conn guy, but in this quintet my approach has to be different.
One time I got to ask the trombonist of a touring quintet about equipment choice differences between quintet and orchestra (she tours US & Europe and subs in Boston Symphony), and very dissatisfyingly, she said she uses the same equipment. I wouldn't criticize anyone at that level for musical choices, but in my quintet, a symphonic sound wouldn't work.
I would normally say that a horn that doesn't match my style isn't worth having, but in this case, I got this horn for a purpose, and it works for that purpose. The requirements of the quintet are kind of leading me into a change. I'll still be a Conn guy, but in this quintet my approach has to be different.
One time I got to ask the trombonist of a touring quintet about equipment choice differences between quintet and orchestra (she tours US & Europe and subs in Boston Symphony), and very dissatisfyingly, she said she uses the same equipment. I wouldn't criticize anyone at that level for musical choices, but in my quintet, a symphonic sound wouldn't work.
- dukesboneman
- Posts: 935
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
I had a similar problem, I played a Conn 78H for decades , Love it. I always thought I had a bright sound so the "Larger "horn helped that. Then I moved to a different city and suddenly I had the darkest sound in the room.
I switched to a Bach 12. I couldn`t play it at first. SOOOO small. I put my 78H in the closet and ONLY played the 12for a little over a month. I had to learn how to play that horn.
Give the new horn some time. After a while you`ll sound like you.
I switched to a Bach 12. I couldn`t play it at first. SOOOO small. I put my 78H in the closet and ONLY played the 12for a little over a month. I had to learn how to play that horn.
Give the new horn some time. After a while you`ll sound like you.
- Thrawn22
- Posts: 1436
- Joined: Sep 06, 2018
While just about all the Kings I've played were free blowing, i really could dig that "King" sound. I bought a 3B+ for the sole purpose of a backup horn for my 6H.
With that said, maybe instead of a 3BF you should've got a 3B+F? Maybe The .525 bore size would help give you room to darken up when necessary while still being able to brighten up like you initially wanted.
There's not much you can do if getting that mental sound to influence the horns sound doesn't work, aside from starting to change parts which defeats the purpose of having the 3BF in the first place.
With the inventory you have I'm a little suprised this is an issue.
With that said, maybe instead of a 3BF you should've got a 3B+F? Maybe The .525 bore size would help give you room to darken up when necessary while still being able to brighten up like you initially wanted.
There's not much you can do if getting that mental sound to influence the horns sound doesn't work, aside from starting to change parts which defeats the purpose of having the 3BF in the first place.
With the inventory you have I'm a little suprised this is an issue.
- greenbean
- Posts: 1958
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="dukesboneman"]...
I switched to a Bach 12. I couldn`t play it at first. SOOOO small. I put my 78H in the closet and ONLY played the 12for a little over a month. I had to learn how to play that horn.
...[/quote]
This is exactly what happened to me when I got my first small Bach - a 16. I initially thought it was pretty much unplayable but was intrigued by the sound I got. After sticking it out for good while, it clicked, and now my small Bachs are the easiest horns to play!
I switched to a Bach 12. I couldn`t play it at first. SOOOO small. I put my 78H in the closet and ONLY played the 12for a little over a month. I had to learn how to play that horn.
...[/quote]
This is exactly what happened to me when I got my first small Bach - a 16. I initially thought it was pretty much unplayable but was intrigued by the sound I got. After sticking it out for good while, it clicked, and now my small Bachs are the easiest horns to play!
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Thrawn22"]
...With the inventory you have I'm a little suprised this is an issue....[/quote]
Everything else I have has a very different sound, even the 24h I used to own which is much smaller had a fatter, meatier sound. I had a very bright kanstul 760 for a while, but played it for about 15 seconds and just got rid of it as fast as I could. I briefly had a 3b a couple of years ago, but it was both an SS and a cut bell, so very heavy, and very different sounding.
...With the inventory you have I'm a little suprised this is an issue....[/quote]
Everything else I have has a very different sound, even the 24h I used to own which is much smaller had a fatter, meatier sound. I had a very bright kanstul 760 for a while, but played it for about 15 seconds and just got rid of it as fast as I could. I briefly had a 3b a couple of years ago, but it was both an SS and a cut bell, so very heavy, and very different sounding.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
I'd use the correct "3" DE shank on it. Specifically a C+/D3 combo. Then it'll be like when Aladdin takes Jasmine up on the magic carpet ride.
(Creds: used an 88H for over 10 years. Converted to King and Edwards after several magic carpet rides into the whole new world)
(Creds: used an 88H for over 10 years. Converted to King and Edwards after several magic carpet rides into the whole new world)
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]I'd use the correct "3" DE shank on it. Specifically a C+/D3 combo. Then it'll be like when Aladdin takes Jasmine up on the magic carpet ride.
(Creds: used an 88H for over 10 years. Converted to King and Edwards after several magic carpet rides into the whole new world)[/quote]
Magic carpet ride? I want to be able to return when this ride is over, or when I want to go to Conn-land again. And heaven only knows what's going to happen when I have to go to bass-land again.
Anyway, last night I went through my C, D and E cups with my 1 C shank, 2 D shanks and 4 E shanks. Wound up on a D3 with an undersize Olds taper. Last night I kept splitting G and A, but tonight, no problem. It may be inconsistent chops as much as anything.
The 3B is sounding less and less bright the more I play it. Hope I don't practice the bright out of it.
(Creds: used an 88H for over 10 years. Converted to King and Edwards after several magic carpet rides into the whole new world)[/quote]
Magic carpet ride? I want to be able to return when this ride is over, or when I want to go to Conn-land again. And heaven only knows what's going to happen when I have to go to bass-land again.
Anyway, last night I went through my C, D and E cups with my 1 C shank, 2 D shanks and 4 E shanks. Wound up on a D3 with an undersize Olds taper. Last night I kept splitting G and A, but tonight, no problem. It may be inconsistent chops as much as anything.
The 3B is sounding less and less bright the more I play it. Hope I don't practice the bright out of it.
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
When I get a new horn, I normally have to spend at least an hour on drones with it to break myself in to it for similar reasons. When I chip a note, it’s usually because the slide is in the wrong place or that overtone is flat or sharp sounding and I’m trying to overcompensate. Drones really help me find where the overtones are so I’m not repressing brightness - resulting in a dull sound- or the opposite, repressing the dark sound making it brash.
Also, copper 32H pipe because I can’t help myself ;)
Also, copper 32H pipe because I can’t help myself ;)