Bass bone versus large bore tenor.
- Trhtrbn
- Posts: 154
- Joined: Jun 05, 2023
Correct me if I am mistaken, isn’t the difference between 0.547” and 0.563” about 1/64th of an inch, or 0.21 mm’s?
Is that really a such a big difference that everybody seems to think. Just wondering <EMOJI seq="1f603" tseq="1f603">😃</EMOJI>
Is that really a such a big difference that everybody seems to think. Just wondering <EMOJI seq="1f603" tseq="1f603">😃</EMOJI>
- Elow
- Posts: 1924
- Joined: Mar 02, 2020
yeah, there is a good enough difference for me to keep on using my .562
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="Trhtrbn"]Correct me if I am mistaken, isn’t the difference between 0.547” and 0.563” about 1/64th of an inch, or 0.21 mm’s?
Is that really a such a big difference that everybody seems to think. Just wondering <EMOJI seq="1f603" tseq="1f603">😃</EMOJI>[/quote]
The slide bore is one small part. The tapers in the instrument are much larger in a bass trombone as well.
Is that really a such a big difference that everybody seems to think. Just wondering <EMOJI seq="1f603" tseq="1f603">😃</EMOJI>[/quote]
The slide bore is one small part. The tapers in the instrument are much larger in a bass trombone as well.
- ZacharyThornton
- Posts: 615
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
A bass trombone is not just the size of the bore.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
You can fit infinity Planck lengths in the difference between the two volumes. So yes.
Where is this question springing from?
Where is this question springing from?
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]Where is this question springing from?[/quote]
This thread:
<LINK_TEXT text="viewtopic.php?t=31678">https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?t=31678</LINK_TEXT>
Some mod should probably merge 'em.
This thread:
<LINK_TEXT text="viewtopic.php?t=31678">https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?t=31678</LINK_TEXT>
Some mod should probably merge 'em.
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
The big difference is the bell and tuning slide, which is much larger than the bore size difference of the slide. The rotors are also frequently larger (usually around .593) but even on a duo gravis which has tenor rotors, the sound is much differently. Interestingly, I’ve also played around with as small as 508/525 slides on bass bells and… yep still sounds like a bass. More than a 562 slide on a tenor bell. It feels odd but it’s a cool combination for when you’re the only trombonist.
- greenbean
- Posts: 1958
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Creating new threads will not get new answers.
I suggest spending some time playing a large tenor AND a bass, and then you will know they are very different. They are both fun to play - enjoy yourself!
I suggest spending some time playing a large tenor AND a bass, and then you will know they are very different. They are both fun to play - enjoy yourself!
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
It probably wouldn’t hurt to take a couple of lessons from an experienced bass trombonist.
- Trhtrbn
- Posts: 154
- Joined: Jun 05, 2023
[quote="Bach5G"]It probably wouldn’t hurt to take a couple of lessons from an experienced bass trombonist.[/quote]
I am starting lessons with Robbie Hioki this month. He has been much help, I just believe in getting other opinions.
I am starting lessons with Robbie Hioki this month. He has been much help, I just believe in getting other opinions.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
If you take the two sizes side by side and try to play rochut, you'll quickly find out what the difference is. There are a lot of factors that are different between bass and tenor, but the air you need to drive the bass is maybe the biggest practical difference. And the result is a fatter more velvet sound in the low notes for the bass, while a tenor in low notes will have a tendency to sound a bit like a buzz saw.
I've kind of made a study of trying to find the smallest horn I can use as a bass and get away with it. The important factors for if you can make a tenor pass for a bass are:
1) the mouthpiece - a biggish mouthpiece can make all the difference, but don't get carried away with it 2g-1.5g works great on a 547. Mouthpieces that are too big can affect intonation and upper range.
2) how low are you talking about? Tenors can often convincingly go down to say D below the staff, below that it becomes a harder sell.
3) how loud are you talking about? One of the big things about larger bore is that it allows you to get louder with less edge. Edge down low is something to use sparingly.
And of course all of this depends on a lot of things not the least of which is how much practice you've put into it. I've used an 88h when I should have had a bass. It can work. Holton tr159 is my current tenor that likes to pretend its a bass, using a Ferguson V (small 1.5g size). I had a Wessex "supertenor" for a while that is actually not bad at splitting the difference between tenor and bass. It's different from a single valve bass. Technically a tenor, but you can pull off bass parts on it (overlooking the limitations of a single valve).
I've kind of made a study of trying to find the smallest horn I can use as a bass and get away with it. The important factors for if you can make a tenor pass for a bass are:
1) the mouthpiece - a biggish mouthpiece can make all the difference, but don't get carried away with it 2g-1.5g works great on a 547. Mouthpieces that are too big can affect intonation and upper range.
2) how low are you talking about? Tenors can often convincingly go down to say D below the staff, below that it becomes a harder sell.
3) how loud are you talking about? One of the big things about larger bore is that it allows you to get louder with less edge. Edge down low is something to use sparingly.
And of course all of this depends on a lot of things not the least of which is how much practice you've put into it. I've used an 88h when I should have had a bass. It can work. Holton tr159 is my current tenor that likes to pretend its a bass, using a Ferguson V (small 1.5g size). I had a Wessex "supertenor" for a while that is actually not bad at splitting the difference between tenor and bass. It's different from a single valve bass. Technically a tenor, but you can pull off bass parts on it (overlooking the limitations of a single valve).
- Trhtrbn
- Posts: 154
- Joined: Jun 05, 2023
Thank you all for your opinions and comments, I really appreciate them. I am a person who seeks all the information I can get when trying something new to me. Forgive me for any apparent ignorance, I am just an ex tuba player who only doubled on the bass bone. In my younger days I coasted on what natural talent the good Lord gave me. After 10 plus years of not playing anything due to an accident that required me to get full upper dentures, I actually thought my playing days were over, I desire to learn the bass bone properly this time. Thank you all, again. <EMOJI seq="1f60a" tseq="1f60a">😊</EMOJI>
- Finetales
- Posts: 1482
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Matt K"]Interestingly, I’ve also played around with as small as 508/525 slides on bass bells and… yep still sounds like a bass. More than a 562 slide on a tenor bell. It feels odd but it’s a cool combination for when you’re the only trombonist.[/quote]
Now I want to try this! Might be cheaper than finding a 1480...
Now I want to try this! Might be cheaper than finding a 1480...
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
[quote="Finetales"]<QUOTE author="Matt K" post_id="212203" time="1686393797" user_id="48">Interestingly, I’ve also played around with as small as 508/525 slides on bass bells and… yep still sounds like a bass. More than a 562 slide on a tenor bell. It feels odd but it’s a cool combination for when you’re the only trombonist.[/quote]
Now I want to try this! Might be cheaper than finding a 1480...
</QUOTE>
One of the reasons I’ve stuck to the Shires ecosystem. Swapping those slides around can lead to some off the wall but interesting combos. Love my 525/547 on the bass bell. Bring both large and small shank pipes… both valves let me go really comfortably down to pedal G. Honestly, a little resistance in the small shank makes the low notes easier, but brighter obviously. Doug is working on a small shank specifically for the bore size. Very interested to see what he comes up with although that combo is with a large tenor bell not the bass bell, though I suspect what he comes with will work with the bass bell too.
Now I want to try this! Might be cheaper than finding a 1480...
</QUOTE>
One of the reasons I’ve stuck to the Shires ecosystem. Swapping those slides around can lead to some off the wall but interesting combos. Love my 525/547 on the bass bell. Bring both large and small shank pipes… both valves let me go really comfortably down to pedal G. Honestly, a little resistance in the small shank makes the low notes easier, but brighter obviously. Doug is working on a small shank specifically for the bore size. Very interested to see what he comes up with although that combo is with a large tenor bell not the bass bell, though I suspect what he comes with will work with the bass bell too.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
I've tried my 42 and 36 slides on bass... They play and sound worse than bass slides. I'm not sure I see the point.
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
[quote="Burgerbob"]I've tried my 42 and 36 slides on bass... They play and sound worse than bass slides. I'm not sure I see the point.[/quote]
Depends on what. I’m not going to play in an orchestral section on them but if you’re the only player you don’t lose that much in the high range and it really opens up the bottom half of the horn. On mine I lose flexibility above C or D in the top of treble clef doing that, but I normally don’t hang out there for too long. Being able to double bari sax or bass is a lot easier, especially for low Cs and Bs, which is really not accessible even on tenors with good low range.
Depends on what. I’m not going to play in an orchestral section on them but if you’re the only player you don’t lose that much in the high range and it really opens up the bottom half of the horn. On mine I lose flexibility above C or D in the top of treble clef doing that, but I normally don’t hang out there for too long. Being able to double bari sax or bass is a lot easier, especially for low Cs and Bs, which is really not accessible even on tenors with good low range.
- BrianJohnston
- Posts: 1165
- Joined: Jul 11, 2020
[quote="Trhtrbn"]Correct me if I am mistaken, isn’t the difference between 0.547” and 0.563” about 0.21 mm’s?[/quote]
Yes, and that makes a HUGE difference.
Yes, and that makes a HUGE difference.
- gbedinger
- Posts: 117
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
The bore and throat size differences make a huge difference. It’s a total mindset change when
I play a smaller bore trombone, and that includes the .546 large bore.
I play a smaller bore trombone, and that includes the .546 large bore.
- SteveM
- Posts: 88
- Joined: Dec 21, 2021
These dimensions - mouthpiece depth, slide bore, taper, bell throat, etc. - are all on a continuum. If you look at the spectrum from the smallest horns in common use, say a King 2B, to a full sized bass trombone, a large bore tenor is far closer to a bass than it is to a 2B. That may be the observation that prompted the OP's question.
- MStarke
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Jan 01, 2019
As others stated before, the difference is much more than just the bore size in the slides.
Bell throats are extremely different. I have mutes that are interchangeable between large and small tenor and even the largest of my altos.
For bass mutes there is no chance to work for large tenor.
Also as a side-note:
German trombones tend to have notably smaller slide bore sizes, but due other dimensions such as the bell throat and size they sound different, but not really smaller than American trombones.
Just as an example: https://helmut-voigt.com/bass-trombones/
Bell throats are extremely different. I have mutes that are interchangeable between large and small tenor and even the largest of my altos.
For bass mutes there is no chance to work for large tenor.
Also as a side-note:
German trombones tend to have notably smaller slide bore sizes, but due other dimensions such as the bell throat and size they sound different, but not really smaller than American trombones.
Just as an example: https://helmut-voigt.com/bass-trombones/
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
[quote="Matt K"]The big difference is the bell and tuning slide, which is much larger than the bore size difference of the slide. The rotors are also frequently larger (usually around .593) but even on a duo gravis which has tenor rotors, the sound is much differently. Interestingly, I’ve also played around with as small as 508/525 slides on bass bells and… yep still sounds like a bass. More than a 562 slide on a tenor bell. It feels odd but it’s a cool combination for when you’re the only trombonist.[/quote]
Really? Putting a 508/525 slide on a bass bell sounds like a bass? Okay. Go win a job on that combination.
Really? Putting a 508/525 slide on a bass bell sounds like a bass? Okay. Go win a job on that combination.
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="Matt K" post_id="212203" time="1686393797" user_id="48">
The big difference is the bell and tuning slide, which is much larger than the bore size difference of the slide. The rotors are also frequently larger (usually around .593) but even on a duo gravis which has tenor rotors, the sound is much differently. Interestingly, I’ve also played around with as small as 508/525 slides on bass bells and… yep still sounds like a bass. More than a 562 slide on a tenor bell. It feels odd but it’s a cool combination for when you’re the only trombonist.[/quote]
Really? Putting a 508/525 slide on a bass bell sounds like a bass? Okay. Go win a job on that combination.
</QUOTE>
I’ll happily take a donation of a 508/525 slide and do a gig on it :good:
The big difference is the bell and tuning slide, which is much larger than the bore size difference of the slide. The rotors are also frequently larger (usually around .593) but even on a duo gravis which has tenor rotors, the sound is much differently. Interestingly, I’ve also played around with as small as 508/525 slides on bass bells and… yep still sounds like a bass. More than a 562 slide on a tenor bell. It feels odd but it’s a cool combination for when you’re the only trombonist.[/quote]
Really? Putting a 508/525 slide on a bass bell sounds like a bass? Okay. Go win a job on that combination.
</QUOTE>
I’ll happily take a donation of a 508/525 slide and do a gig on it :good:
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
[quote="Matt K"]<QUOTE author="WGWTR180" post_id="212373" time="1686572812" user_id="7573">
Really? Putting a 508/525 slide on a bass bell sounds like a bass? Okay. Go win a job on that combination.[/quote]
I’ll happily take a donation of a 508/525 slide and do a gig on it :good:
</QUOTE>
I think you've tinkered enough.
Really? Putting a 508/525 slide on a bass bell sounds like a bass? Okay. Go win a job on that combination.[/quote]
I’ll happily take a donation of a 508/525 slide and do a gig on it :good:
</QUOTE>
I think you've tinkered enough.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Let's put a little distinction on this.
The universal use of a large bore tenor dates to Emory Remington, who thought you could cover all 3 parts in an orchestra on that size instrument. That may have been true in 1940, but nowadays the requirements have changed. A true bass trombone is better for 3rd trombone (band or orchestra) or 4th trombone (Stage/Jazz Band).
Matt won't be able to win an audition to a major symphony using a "bass trombone" consisting of a bass bell and a tenor size slide. It won't provide the sound they are usually looking for.
Matt could certainly use his hybrid instrument in a Community Band where they won't care. He may also be able to use it in a higher level concert where appropriate. After all, I covered tuba parts in a concert on a King 4B (they forgot to tell me to bring my tuba that day).
For a heavy duty pro application, you have to show up with the equipment they expect to see, or you don't get hired any more.
The universal use of a large bore tenor dates to Emory Remington, who thought you could cover all 3 parts in an orchestra on that size instrument. That may have been true in 1940, but nowadays the requirements have changed. A true bass trombone is better for 3rd trombone (band or orchestra) or 4th trombone (Stage/Jazz Band).
Matt won't be able to win an audition to a major symphony using a "bass trombone" consisting of a bass bell and a tenor size slide. It won't provide the sound they are usually looking for.
Matt could certainly use his hybrid instrument in a Community Band where they won't care. He may also be able to use it in a higher level concert where appropriate. After all, I covered tuba parts in a concert on a King 4B (they forgot to tell me to bring my tuba that day).
For a heavy duty pro application, you have to show up with the equipment they expect to see, or you don't get hired any more.
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
It is an interesting discussion though. One of the reasons I sold my Yamaha YSL-640, which is a very nice instrument, was that the bell section was identical to the 620, and had a tuning slide larger in diameter than a Bach 42. The sound I got out of it was not the "medium large" bore sound and feel I was looking for.
Also I think of people like Jay Friedman, playing a .562" bore Bach 50 slide with a Bach 42 Bell section. I do think that with regards to the final sound, the bell may have a bit more influence, at least in my own limited experience.
Also I think of people like Jay Friedman, playing a .562" bore Bach 50 slide with a Bach 42 Bell section. I do think that with regards to the final sound, the bell may have a bit more influence, at least in my own limited experience.
- Thom
- Posts: 98
- Joined: Nov 29, 2024
[quote="Trhtrbn"]<QUOTE author="Bach5G" post_id="212227" time="1686421023" user_id="2999">
It probably wouldn’t hurt to take a couple of lessons from an experienced bass trombonist.[/quote]
I am starting lessons with Robbie Hioki this month. He has been much help, I just believe in getting other opinions.
</QUOTE>
I take lessons with Robbie. He is an excellent teacher and the nicest person I have ever met!
It probably wouldn’t hurt to take a couple of lessons from an experienced bass trombonist.[/quote]
I am starting lessons with Robbie Hioki this month. He has been much help, I just believe in getting other opinions.
</QUOTE>
I take lessons with Robbie. He is an excellent teacher and the nicest person I have ever met!
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
It's like the difference between a 16 and 18 inch pizza. Sounds like nothing, but the 18 inch pizza is like 42,000% larger. I'm pretty sure....
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]It's like the difference between a 16 and 18 inch pizza. Sounds like nothing, but the 18 inch pizza is like 42,000% larger. I'm pretty sure....[/quote]
A 16 inch pie has area of just over 201 square inches and an 18 inch has an area of about 254.5 square inches; that breaks down to about 27% larger.
As for trombones?
A .525" bore has a cross-sectional area of ~.216 square inches, a .547" bore has a cross-sectional area of ~.235 square inches and a .562" bore has a cross-sectional are of ~.248 square inches. A .547" horn is about 8% larger than a .525" and a .562" horn is about 5% larger than a .547". What do all those number mean to the way an instrument sounds or plays? I dunno. Maybe someone here does.
A 16 inch pie has area of just over 201 square inches and an 18 inch has an area of about 254.5 square inches; that breaks down to about 27% larger.
As for trombones?
A .525" bore has a cross-sectional area of ~.216 square inches, a .547" bore has a cross-sectional area of ~.235 square inches and a .562" bore has a cross-sectional are of ~.248 square inches. A .547" horn is about 8% larger than a .525" and a .562" horn is about 5% larger than a .547". What do all those number mean to the way an instrument sounds or plays? I dunno. Maybe someone here does.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Your local shop doesn't sell them like this??
<ATTACHMENT filename="20241203_125019.jpg" index="0">[attachment=0]20241203_125019.jpg</ATTACHMENT>
:horror:
<ATTACHMENT filename="20241203_125019.jpg" index="0">
:horror: