Single Valve Bass Trombone for Primary Instrument

walldaja · by **walldaja** » 2018-12-04 9:25 p.m.

I have never been around bass trombones much at all. Recently that changed and I play routinely with folks whose primary instrument is the bass trombone. I'm impressed with the range and flexibility it has in their hands. I've played a straight horn for over 50 years and only moved up to a Bb/F a couple of years ago. I often wonder why it took so long other than I really liked playing left-handed (started on purpose to be different). Once I got the Bb/F I was committed, at least on that horn. Playing right-handed stopped feeling strange within days of getting the new horn and I haven't looked back.

That said, when I got my Bb/F it was the first and only horn I played (got a really good deal on a trade at a music store I taught brass at). Until last week I never tried any other horns. Since getting my horn I've tried to master the lower end of the horn's range with mixed results with D being a safe limit. I have no similar difficulty with my euphonium, I can get them quite solidly. Last week I played a Yamaha 421 and the low note spoke easily and solidly. Not sure if it was a result of the larger bore and or bigger bell than my current horn--my euphonium has a .590 bore.

I'm seriously thinking of going with a single valve bass for the sound and solid low notes. I had no difficulty with the upper end of its range. Single valve to keep the weight down.

Is my thinking seriously flawed? I would appreciate your thoughts on it, thanks in advance.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2018-12-04 9:58 p.m.

No one can fault you. If you like the low notes, that's your decision. Sometimes just a change of pace is a good thing. You might eventually miss the action and timbre of the smaller instrument, so don't get rid of your small horns.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2018-12-04 10:02 p.m.

It really depends on what you want to accomplish.

In a Community Band or Community Orchestra nobody's going to really care as long as you can play the notes in time and in tune. If you use a bass trombone sized mouthpiece you may find you will have problems covering a 1st Trombone part.

The single valve bass will have a different sound from a tenor (straight or single valved) even if you use the same mouthpiece in each. This may or may not turn out to be a problem.

If you plan to audition for a picky group the single valve bass may limit your acceptance. Not "big enough" for bass, and too big for tenor.

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2018-12-04 10:19 p.m.

What size Bb/F horn are you playing now? If a small bore, maybe a concert tenor with a .547 bore would be a horn to try.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2018-12-04 10:51 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]

... the single valve bass may limit your acceptance. Not "big enough" for bass, and too big for tenor.[/quote]

Bruce,

I think you are misinformed by your preconceptions. What makes you say that a single valve bass is "not 'big enough' for bass?" The Yamaha 421 (AKA YBL-421G) does indeed have only a single rotary valve, but has a bore size of 0.563" - probably a bit larger than whatever bass trombone many TromboneChatters (including you) play. As far as I know, adding a second valve does not make a trombone play any "bigger" - in fact the extra resistance of a second valve could actually restrict air flow, thus decreasing the sound out of the bell! The Yamaha 421 seems to produce a fine "big" sound, when played by a player who can produce such a sound. I believe that the mouthpiece used (and the player behind it) have much more influence on the sound than the number of valves.

{Mouthpiece size is another discussion. I'm on the side of Chris Stearn (Blast) on this topic - bigger is not necessarily better. In any case, if you are so inclined, you can use a mouthpiece the size of a toilet bowl on any single-valve bass - they all have the same large shank receivers as their double-valve counterparts.}

In my view, a second valve is added to a trombone to facilitate the playing of certain (especially low) passages, with a few ancillary side effects:

• It's trendy, and looks cool (shows a lot of brass) - could impress your friends and those who don't know any better;

• It may help get you an audition for certain ensembles (e.g., a major symphony orchestra);

• You won't get laughed at or scorned by double-valve bigots;

• You may suffer health consequences from hefting the extra weight of a double-valve trombone (see the recent thread started by Doug Yeo), which are lessened by playing a lighter-weight single valve instrument.

But back to Walldaja's original query: A single-valve bass, such as the Yamaha 421-G is a real bass trombone, and as such is not interchangeable with a tenor trombone in most situations for most players. As Kingfan has suggested, a "concert tenor" with an F-attachment and a 0.547" bore would be a better fit. With it, he could play all the low notes he can play on his single-valve bass (with a nice full sound) and the high notes would be easier to play (and probably sound better).

Good luck with the experiment, Walldaja!

Savio · by **Savio** » 2018-12-05 2:00 a.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]

the single valve bass may limit your acceptance. Not "big enough" for bass, and too big for tenor.[/quote]

As I see it, this is a little wrong put Bruce? A single has the same bore and bell as an double. The sound can even be bigger on a single. So big enough is not a problem. The problem is technically around low B. So if you often need that note especially in fast runs...double is easier.

The Yamaha 421 is a very good sounding horn. It's as big and nice as any other bass trombone. Only needs some practice....like everything else.

Leif

sirisobhakya · by **sirisobhakya** » 2018-12-05 3:11 a.m.

In my opinion, and I am only an amateur, a single valve bass can be an only instrument for you, especially if you are not serious with blending or color. A bass will generally be harder to color (subject to many additional factors however) and might overpower tenors around you while trying to get the same “edge” or “sparkle” in the sound.

You can, however, adjust your color, at least partially, with mouthpiece. It may still sound like a bass with shallow/small/tight mouthpiece rather than a tenorbass with appropriate mouthpiece, but at least it is closer.

That is the tonal issue. But like many before me said, there is also “visual” or “credibility” factor if you want to get into some high(er) level bands.

Personally, I use my double valve bass for everything, changing only the mouthpiece of different diameter and depth. But that is partially because I don’t really have to care about color (the school band I am helping teach and sometimes sub doesn’t care), and I also love my sound on it than on my tenorbass.

Lastly, the YBL-421G is a good horn. It also plays like a large tenor in feelings. I used it in my high school years and thought it was a tenor at first.

Jgittleson · by **Jgittleson** » 2018-12-05 4:57 a.m.

Nothing wrong with a single valve bass. I know a handful of people that use them often, and i enjoy them myself. With a large amount of technical now passages, the 2 valves in an independent configuration can be extremely beneficial, but by no means required. As is was just put to me by a good friend, " A good player can do the job on a tin can!"

walldaja · by **walldaja** » 2018-12-05 8:41 a.m.

Kingfan, my trombone is a .547. Maybe I should try a few more tenors as well. Thanks.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2018-12-05 10:05 a.m.

Please note: I was talking about groups that would listen with their eyes and not their ears. A single valve bass is a great instrument.

This may be moot since walldaja apparently is playing a large bore tenor. Lots of folks use this as their only instrument. More now since kids are being moved to these in schools.

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2018-12-05 11:02 a.m.

[quote="walldaja"]Kingfan, my trombone is a .547. Maybe I should try a few more tenors as well. Thanks.[/quote]

My primary horn for many years was my .547. I also have small bore tenors with and without F valves which is why I asked what bore yours was. I played a single valve Conn 72H in high school as my first exposure to bass and loved it. Yes, since you already have a large bore tenor, by all means look for a suitable bass. No need for a double valve unless you plan on regulary playing literature that requires one. My bass is a dependent double valve Holton TR180 I lucked into at a pawn shop for cheap. I have played in community orchestras and big bands and never use my second valve.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2018-12-05 11:49 a.m.

[quote="Savio"]<QUOTE author="BGuttman" post_id="72339" time="1543978963" user_id="53">

the single valve bass may limit your acceptance. Not "big enough" for bass, and too big for tenor.[/quote]

As I see it, this is a little wrong put Bruce? A single has the same bore and bell as an double. The sound can even be bigger on a single. So big enough is not a problem. The problem is technically around low B. So if you often need that note especially in fast runs...double is easier.
</QUOTE>

A double is faster for most mortals, that is true, but to some the single can actually be faster because you do not need to switch between two valves. You need to be a master of the "fake-notes" first, that's the catch.

/Tom

greenbean · by **greenbean** » 2018-12-05 1:33 p.m.

I would say my old single Bach 50B is “big” enough!...

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2018-12-05 2:45 p.m.

I think Bruce's comment would be potentially applicable even if the 4xx series bass was a double. It has the same bore as a bass but when you say, compare it to other basses, the 400 series one plays a little on the brighter side of things at least for my tastes. Though it is a very easy instrument to play nontheless and is obviously lighterweight. If I had the funds and was looking to expand my arsenal I could see it being a very useful instrument to have for particular applications.

I would hate to give up the second valve and certainly wouldn't have my only instrument as one, although I briefly tried it. Especially for a guy with short arms, that's a no go for me!

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2018-12-05 2:59 p.m.

[quote="greenbean"]I would say my old single Bach 50B is “big” enough!...[/quote]

But, as Bruce said, not for those who "listen with their eyes instead of their ears."

~~[size=150]~~"What's that little thing he's playing? Where's the second valve? Couldn't be a 'real' bass trombone without two valves."

greenbean · 2018-12-05 3:46 p.m.

[quote="Posaunus"]

But, as Bruce said, not for those who "listen with their eyes instead of their ears."

...[/quote]

I just tell 'em to sod off! That usually quiets them down (or leaves them scratching their heads).

greenbean · by **greenbean** » 2018-12-05 3:47 p.m.

[quote="walldaja"]...

I'm seriously thinking of going with a single valve bass for the sound and solid low notes. I had no difficulty with the upper end of its range. Single valve to keep the weight down.

Is my thinking seriously flawed? I would appreciate your thoughts on it, thanks in advance.[/quote]

I think you are right on. Except you should keep your AC280 in addition to getting a bass. A single would be fine. You could get a double-valve bass someday if you decide you need it and your body can handle it. (There are some ergonomic and injury considerations with doubles.) Have fun!

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2018-12-05 5:19 p.m.

[quote="greenbean"]I think you are right on. Except you should keep your AC280 in addition to getting a bass. A single would be fine. You could get a double-valve bass someday if you decide you need it and your body can handle it. (There are some ergonomic and injury considerations with doubles.) Have fun![/quote]

:good:

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2018-12-05 5:33 p.m.

What mouthpiece are you playing on your .547 horn? You may be able to achieve the sound you like with a different MP. Lots cheaper than a new trombone, too!

walldaja · by **walldaja** » 2018-12-05 9:01 p.m.

Thanks Greenbean!

Kingfan, I'm using a Stork 4. I had been using a Wedge 5G but the sound was breaking up and I can get a greater dynamic range with the Stork.

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2018-12-05 9:18 p.m.

[quote="walldaja"]Thanks Greenbean!

Kingfan, I'm using a Stork 4. I had been using a Wedge 5G but the sound was breaking up and I can get a greater dynamic range with the Stork.[/quote]

If I read my trombone mouthpiece comparison chart right, a Stork BT4 is similar to a Bach 1 1/4G. I am out of ideas/suggestions at this point. I hope you find the horn you are looking for. Good luck!

greenbean · by **greenbean** » 2018-12-05 9:47 p.m.

[quote="Kingfan"]...

If I read my trombone mouthpiece comparison chart right, a Stork BT4 is similar to a Bach 1 1/4G. I am out of ideas/suggestions at this point. I hope you find the horn you are looking for. Good luck![/quote]

The Stork BT4 is similar to a 4G in size...

(Must your that vision problem you mentioned in the other thread! :biggrin: )

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2018-12-05 10:30 p.m.

[quote="greenbean"]<QUOTE author="Kingfan" post_id="72444" time="1544062704" user_id="3053">
...

If I read my trombone mouthpiece comparison chart right, a Stork BT4 is similar to a Bach 1 1/4G. I am out of ideas/suggestions at this point. I hope you find the horn you are looking for. Good luck![/quote]

The Stork BT4 is similar to a 4G in size...

(Must your that vision problem you mentioned in the other thread! :biggrin: )
</QUOTE>

Maybe I need a new chart!

<LINK_TEXT text="http://www.dannychesnut.com/Music/Tromb ... rison.html">http://www.dannychesnut.com/Music/Trombone/TromboneMouthpieceComparison.html</LINK_TEXT>

Yep, found a Stork chart, and a BT4 is like a 4G.

https://storkcustom.com/trombone-mouthpieces/

Everything on the internet is true, right? OK, my head is now exploding.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2018-12-06 2:14 a.m.

Life is indeed full of ironies. Tonight I was asked to sub in a (very good) Big Band on bass trombone. Feeling up to the challenge, I showed up with my trusty (single-valve) Yamaha YBL 421-G bass. Only to encounter another bass trombonist already sitting in the 4th Trombone chair - with his double-valve bass. (The lead trombonist, knowing the regular bass trombonist would be absent, had asked him to sub.) But the regular 3rd trombonist was not there, and would show up late. So I stayed, and played 3rd Trombone for 2½ hours on my single-valve full-sized bass trombone. I used the smallest mouthpiece in my case (a Yamaha 58L), which actually worked pretty well. (I only had to hit a couple of high B-flats.) I did my best to blend in, and was told that I sounded fine. So I guess I've found the answer to walldaja's query. You can indeed play a bass trombone within an otherwise tenor trombone section, without sticking out like a sore thumb. (Though I still wish I had a tenor trombone with me tonight - even a 0.547" bore with F-attachment!)

RConrad · by **RConrad** » 2018-12-06 2:19 a.m.

I've been looking at a lot of horns lately as I plan to buy a bass trombone next month. Being a student with only about $1000 to spend I've been seriously looking at used single and dependent valve basses. Having spent a bit of time with an independent set up I've come to realize that I don't actually use the second valve all that much for the music I'm playing and now that I'm doing a bit of pep band I could really use something a bit lighter. I'm hoping I can find a good deal on a dependent but if not a single should allow me to play everything I need to.

I guess what I'm trying to say is we all have reasons for why we choose the things that we do. If you like the weight and sound while being able to play the range that's required then there's nothing wrong with your thinking. That being said give some other basses a try and see what you think.

Trav1s · by **Trav1s** » 2018-12-06 10:17 a.m.

I appreciate this read and find myself reflecting on some time about 10 years ago where I played on a borrowed 1963 Conn 72H bass. With a Bach 1.5G it sounded like a bass -a light bass when compared to the Edwards monster the owner of the 72H also had in his possession but still a bass. Swapped in my tenor mp preference at the time (Schilke 51B) and I was pleasantly surprised how much it played like a large tenor. I think the Yamaha mentioned by the original poster comes from a similar mold. I say play what works for you and find joy in it all.

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2018-12-06 2:27 p.m.

For the dedicated bass trombonist, I believe that a double-valved instrument is now the standard, whether it’s necessary/deserved or not. For an avocational or amateur player or even a student, I don’t think anyone will fault you for having a single valve bass as a main horn. Some people will, as Bruce noted, “hear with their eyes.” That’s their problem.

I would suggest, however, that the bass be used for bass parts, and your tenor be used for tenor parts. It’s easier to play tenor parts on a tenor, and it will have a more characteristic sound. It will also be easier to blend in a section. My 2 cents: keep the tenor for the tenor parts, and play as much as you want on the bass.

On a personal note, I’m saving up to buy a valve and other parts so my Bach bass can convert from an independent setup to a single. I’ve played a few singles, and I’m always amazed at the difference in sound and response. That and at least 50% of the performances I’ve done in the last 10 years could have been easily played on a single, and another 20-30% with a little forethought and planning. There really haven’t been that many performances where I’ve need the second valve. The additional weight is a factor, too: see Doug Yeo’s thread on his Butler-Yamaha bass trombone. It adds up over time.

Practicing, though, is another matter for the dedicated bass trombonist. A second valve is essential, if not required.

Savio · by **Savio** » 2018-12-06 3:44 p.m.

I have a student playing a Yamaha bass single these days. He have a regular Bach 1 1/2g and sounds amazing. Big centred core with colours around. I nearly dont dear to play because that sound is so good. I dont know the number on that horn but it has a yellow bell. Maybe 322?

Anyway, how instruments sounds, depends mostly on the player!

Leif

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2018-12-06 4:58 p.m.

[quote="Savio"]I have a student playing a Yamaha bass single these days. He have a regular Bach 1 1/2g and sounds amazing. Big centred core with colours around. I nearly dont dear to play because that sound is so good. I dont know the number on that horn but it has a yellow bell. Maybe 322?

Anyway, how instruments sounds, depends mostly on the player!

Leif[/quote]

If it is yellow brass it is the 322. The 321 is red brass. Two very good bass trombones. Nice to hear you have such a good sounding student, but he has heard you, maybe that's why he has such a good sound :good:

/Tom

Savio · by **Savio** » 2018-12-07 2:44 a.m.

You are too kind Tom, but he don't like my 60h. Not the 70h either. But even he is young (15)he like to listen George Roberts. And the "Kraken" with Premru and Phillip Jones brass ensemble. I listen he always warm up with those F. I don't say no because he sounds amazing.

Leif

GBP · by **GBP** » 2018-12-07 3:21 a.m.

I have an Edwards 427 single bass. I use it when play the Mozart Requiem, Beethoven 9 and similar music where a less heavy sound is needed. I don’t play it often, sticking with doubles for most of the playing I do.

blast · by **blast** » 2018-12-07 4:32 a.m.

How is a single bass essentially smaller than a double ??????

I have single and double Hagmanns for my Rath.... does it shrink when I put the single valve on ??????

Any attempt at downsizing needs careful thought... and the ditching of a bucket mouthpiece first of all.

Chris

Tbarh · by **Tbarh** » 2018-12-07 6:41 a.m.

I play a Holton E185 with a customized slide-on D valve which means i can compared single and double valve under otherwise equal condition.. I find the sound of the horn with single F better! Not neccesarily brighter or lighter, simply better and i choose it as much as i can.. I find it very Nice that i have the opportunity to choose both versions without changing the Basic horn set - up..

Trond

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2018-12-07 11:28 a.m.

[quote="blast"]How is a single bass essentially smaller than a double ??????

I have single and double Hagmanns for my Rath.... does it shrink when I put the single valve on ??????

Any attempt at downsizing needs careful thought... and the ditching of a bucket mouthpiece first of all.

Chris[/quote]

Smaller in length and width? No. Lighter in weight due to not having the second valve, linkage, and tubing which what Walldaja wanted in the post that started this thread? Yes.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2018-12-07 4:46 p.m.

So much trouble for one note that you don’t use very often.

I wish I’d kept that 50B I bought from J Stanko. I’d offer to buy it back if I could remember who I sold it to.

Pre59 · by **Pre59** » 2018-12-07 6:02 p.m.

[quote="Kbiggs"]

For the dedicated bass trombonist, I believe that a double-valved instrument is now the standard, whether it’s necessary/deserved or not. For an avocational or amateur player or even a student, I don’t think anyone will fault you for having a single valve bass as a main horn. Some people will, as Bruce noted, “hear with their eyes.” That’s their problem.

[/quote]

How about a lightweight plastic metallic looking fake second section, that could be easily clipped on to satisfy those who need to see a double valve even when it's not required. It would only have to be convincing from a distance and could live in the mute bag when not required. 😉

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2018-12-07 6:18 p.m.

[quote="Pre59"]How about a lightweight plastic metallic looking fake second section, that could be easily clipped on to satisfy those who need to see a double valve even when it's not required. It would only have to be convincing from a distance and could live in the mute bag when not required. 😉[/quote]

Whatever works. 😉

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2018-12-07 9:37 p.m.

[/quote]

How about a lightweight plastic metallic looking fake second section, that could be easily clipped on to satisfy those who need to see a double valve even when it's not required. It would only have to be convincing from a distance and could live in the mute bag when not required. 😉

[/quote]

I like the way you think! :good:

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2018-12-07 11:16 p.m.

[quote="blast"]How is a single bass essentially smaller than a double ??????

I have single and double Hagmanns for my Rath.... does it shrink when I put the single valve on ??????

Chris[/quote]

:good:

Unfortunately, Chris, there seems to be a widespread misconception that double-valve bass trombones are "bigger' than single-valve basses (they are not) or that they produce an inherently "larger" sound (they do not). Single-valve basses typically have the same bore size as double-valve basses, usually similar bell sizes, and accommodate the same mouthpieces. What they do have is simply an extra (often infrequently used) valve, more tubing, and a heavier weight to lift. (Great for muscle development; not so meaningful for making music.)

[quote="blast"]Any attempt at downsizing needs careful thought... and the ditching of a bucket mouthpiece first of all.

Chris[/quote]

:good:

What is the purported advantage of the increasingly-popular toilet-bowl-size mouthpieces?

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2018-12-07 11:25 p.m.

[quote="GBP"]I have an Edwards 427 single bass. I use it when play the Mozart Requiem, Beethoven 9 and similar music where a less heavy sound is needed. I don’t play it often, sticking with doubles for most of the playing I do.[/quote]

Good grief. A full-size bass trombone (yes, even single-valve bass trombones are typically the same size as double-valve basses) for Mozart (or even Beethoven)? This seems to me to be overkill. In some circles, even blasphemy! These composers couldn't have even imagined these monster instruments - or their huge sound. Time to lighten up, methinks!

imsevimse · 2018-12-08 7:44 a.m.

For the first time I brought a single bass to a payed gig with a big band. Encouraged by the other trombonists in the section on the rehearsal this monday I used the Holton 169 I bought last week. It worked very well. It was decided we should play swing all night but it was obvious from the start the guest liked the modern repertoire better. That lead to a change in rep and I had to play all the heavy stuff too, something I had not planned for.

Most of the time the swing repertoire can be played on a large tenor. I know the parts since I've subbed and played the whole book before. There are a few C's and B's but they can be handled with "fake notes" or there is time enough to pull the tuning slide to e. Not the same with the modern repertoire. There are some heavy low valve work that defensively require a double, if you can not play fake notes.

I had to scan the part just in a few seconds and decide weather I should pull the tuningslide and play a larger bit with e-tuning or if I should stay on the f tuning and fake the C's or B. I had to scan for two bar rests where I had enough time to retune.

In this repertoire there is no time to do a pull just before any low C or B instead you have to retune from the start. The modern rep even has a few loud sustained loud B's. This is absolutely the repertoire for which I would have picked my double. It was even some occations I had to fake a few B's on the T2 while on e-tuning.

In all the gig went okay and the others kept telling me I was doing well and this Holton 169 is the bass trombone I should use. The 2:nd player said she could hear me very well. I know it can be difficult to hear the bass trombone from the second chair so I guess this Holton 169 is good and I now know I will use it a lot.

I have another gig on bass trombone this evening and will bring the single to this gig too. I've played most of that book before, and the parts is not as difficult as the modern bass trombone parts I played yesterday.

/Tom

DougHulme · by **DougHulme** » 2018-12-08 11:18 a.m.

Chris Stearn gave a succint and comprehensive assessement of the discussion but it seems to me that there is a reluctance to accept what he says amongst some. There are those who have clearly identified that the choice is often a cosmetic not musical one or should I say psychological not musical?

The father of all bass trombonist today (whether they know it or not) is of course The late great George Roberts. Let no one criticise his sound as anything other than that which gave birth to whatever it is we hear today. He never ever at any point played a double valved horn. He did try a few though, so he had an authoritive opinion but was never paid to play one. He decided the advantages of a single horn outweighed those an added valve gave.

Which brings me to another point which I think Chris put very well but nonetheless - why do people talk about 1 and 2 valves as if they were different horns... they are the same horn. If you get two horns of the same make one with 2 valves one with 1 they are the same horn - identical. As someone pointed out earlier on, the addition of a second valve can make a very slight difference in sound but so too can soldering a lump of brass on as some have experimented on in the past.

Those of us over 40 almost certainly spent many years with nothing but single valve horns to play on. Some of those horns, particularly the old Conns are superb instruments much sought after because many still want to play them for their (sometimes) superior playing qualities.

All the early double horns were simply modified single horns and I suspect if you talked to the like of Mick Rath, Steve Shires, the late Ziggy Kanstul all their double horns that they designed probably had a single horn prototype that was worked up to a double 'finished' article, its the same 'chassis' that is modified to accomodate all the variations dependent, independent, rotary, Hagmann, open wrap, closed wrap etc etc.

Those who are over 60 and British may well have also started life on the old G-D single bass but thats another story altogether.

When I was in my late teens and a poor student (in both senses of the word!) I had to rely on the band I played in to buy me a trombone. They couldnt afford either the prized Old George Roberts model or the much liked Conn 62H that I really fancied. They bought me one of the very first Yamaha 321's to be imported into the UK. It was of course a copy of the said Conn and a very good copy it was. I used that horn for about 25 years before buying my own. It was excellent. A year or two ago one of lifes co-incidences happened and came across the very same horn again and for nostalgic reasons I bought it back. It was in a sorry state so Adrian Jarvis a trulyn excellent technician over here completely renovated it and it plays as well as ever and as well as any mosern horn you could find today. The 322 had a yellow brass bell but let me assure you this horn of mine is no second best or 'lighter' alternative it is all but the equal of the Conns it was copied from.

My last point is about the need in a musical sense for two valves. In the last 6 months (which have been very very busy) all my playing has been done in Brass Bands and small ensembles, this might account for what I am about to say but I speak as I find - I have only found about 6 B naturals to play and all have given me enough time to pull the F slide before arriving. Thats a lot more than 99% of all the notes perfectly well playable on the lighter more comfortable, more pleasant to play single valve. Most of the better bass trombonist that I know are all saying the same thing, whenever they can they play the single and that includes some very well known names, I think once again Chris Stearn is amongst them.

I've said all that and I have to ackowledge my own hypocrisy... I had a sub job on Sunday with a band I havent played for in a very long time and I took the double just to make sure I didnt frighten anyone about my competency to play! (I'm the one that gets frightened by my competency and strangely it doesent vary between one or two valves!)....

My advice?.... get that single and it will do everything, change the mouthpiece for what your playing not the horn and listen to what Chris says about the size of your mouthpiece - dont go too big.... Doug

GBP · by **GBP** » 2018-12-08 12:22 p.m.

If a single works for the type of playing you do and the kind of player you are, play a single. If not, play a double. You’re welcome.

GBP · by **GBP** » 2018-12-08 12:25 p.m.

[quote="Posaunus"]<QUOTE author="GBP" post_id="72519" time="1544170868" user_id="3368">
I have an Edwards 427 single bass. I use it when play the Mozart Requiem, Beethoven 9 and similar music where a less heavy sound is needed. I don’t play it often, sticking with doubles for most of the playing I do.[/quote]

Good grief. A full-size bass trombone (yes, even single-valve bass trombones are typically the same size as double-valve basses) for Mozart (or even Beethoven)? This seems to me to be overkill. In some circles, even blasphemy! These composers couldn't have even imagined these monster instruments - or their huge sound. Time to lighten up, methinks!
</QUOTE>

Since you have never heard my play the horn, do not know who I play the horn with, do not know where I play the horn, do not know what the others in the section are playing, maybe your opinion lacks a level of credibility? Talk about hearing with your eyes.

DougHulme · by **DougHulme** » 2018-12-08 12:47 p.m.

GBP... I think you missed the point in my post and to a certain extent from Posaunus as well. Sound wise your single Edwards is the same as your double (if that is an Edwards too). The difference is a technical one, the choice of alternative shifts which might make a smoother transition between notes - but the sound will be the same, it wont make a difference whether you play your double for the Mozart Requiem or your single. Note I am not getting caught up in your reply to posaunus I dont know enough about the works of Mozart and Beethoven though I guess the point Posaunus was making was that they originally wrote with very small bore instruments in mind and if you were trying to re-create that sound your Edwards would be a long way removed from that sound. However as you say if the rest of the section have gone big it might sound good anyway!... Doug

GBP · by **GBP** » 2018-12-08 1:17 p.m.

I didn’t miss his point. You however, missed mine.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2018-12-08 5:00 p.m.

I suspect a lot of community players are in the same situation in which I find myself. There always seems to be a measure or two on one piece that I'd rather not fight a single on. Tonight is a prime example. Everything on the concert is easily playable on a single except one spot on one piece where there's a quick pedal Bb-low Cb-pedal Bb sequence. Playing it as a false tone is an option, but it's a spot where the note really needs to speak.

DougHulme · by **DougHulme** » 2018-12-08 5:35 p.m.

GBP... I apologise then!... Doug

blast · by **blast** » 2018-12-08 6:04 p.m.

If you are a professional player, you should be able to make pretty much any equipment sound right in pretty much any situation.....

Years ago I worked in an orchestra from time to time that had a well known conductor who always asked for 'small bore' trombones. To save myself the bother of downsizing in an orchestra where none of the other instruments were changed,I used an unlacquered Bach 50B that looked 100 years old.... and that conductor took the trouble thank me for using a 'small bore' and said that it made so much difference.... tee tee.

Today I was helping out at school concert and found that I was having to cover 1st and 2nd trombone parts on the bass....at one point I turned to the kid next to me and said that I wished that I had brought a tenor with me.... she said 'oh, is that a bass ? '.....

Actually, looking at the above,perhaps I just make small sound.....

Chris

DougHulme · by **DougHulme** » 2018-12-08 6:47 p.m.

Hi Chris... well I think my problem is not small sound but small mind! Its too much trouble to work out all these alternative positions and I find everything on a single comes second nature to me from learning in my youth. Its a case of 'keep it simple stupid' for me!!! I had the reverse experience of you recently, the young lady playing principal in a youth band I help to manage has for several years insisted on playing an old Boosey Imperial bass trombone (one of the later ones so a full size bore). I tried t persuade her to get a proper tenor but she liked the bass and played it with a suitable mouthpiece... shes quite a competent player and I have to say I have been impressed with the sound and her playing and it fitted well with the rest of the section and when I have mentioned it to others they have said 'oh is that a bass she plays then?'... just shows what I know!!... Doug

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2018-12-08 8:01 p.m.

To be clear, my "points" - if any - were:

• A single-valve bass trombone does not sound appreciably different (or "smaller") relative to a double-valve bass of the same make, bore size, etc. It just looks smaller. That appearance should not be used as a point of prejudice or belittlement. For repertoire which does not require (or make advantageous) a second valve, there is (or should be) no difference musically between the two.

• Sometimes a full-sized modern bass trombone (with one or two valves) is a mismatch to the classical (and related) repertoire. I know many players now play everything with large equipment. I just happen to believe that for those works it can sound better with smaller instruments in the trombone section. Apparently, many of the players (and conductors) of several major symphony orchestras agree with me, since I see them "going small" for Mozart, Beethoven, etc. I did not intend to insult GBP or his playing; just trying to state my personal preference. Please accept my apologies, GBP. Play what works for you.

Finally, I am the first to admit that for some repertoire (especially modern big band or solo literature), having a second valve is greatly preferable - even mandatory. For those situations, I am clearly handicapped with only one valve on my bass trombone. But I am of an age where carrying the extra weight of a two-valve bass trombone is just too much for me to consider (not to mention the expense of yet another trombone). So I play (and enjoy) only the repertoire where one valve is enough.

imsevimse · 2018-12-08 8:43 p.m.

Tonight was the second time I brought the single valve bass to a big band gig. I think I will continue to do so, I've got so much positive feedback now on the single that I can not find any good excuse to go back to a double. This horn just sings. The lead trombone player gave me much credit for my sound. He thought it to be fat and solid, and said it gave good support to the section sound, a good bottom to build from.

It is not just that I received postive feedback that make me rethink. It is much more fun to play this horn. In this band the C's and B's wasn't much of a problem. Either I pulled the tuning slide to e or I played them as fake notes.

/Tom

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2018-12-08 8:51 p.m.

“This horn just sings.”

There you go.

Fafner · by **Fafner** » 2018-12-09 12:10 a.m.

[quote="Posaunus"]<QUOTE author="GBP" post_id="72519" time="1544170868" user_id="3368">
I have an Edwards 427 single bass. I use it when play the Mozart Requiem, Beethoven 9 and similar music where a less heavy sound is needed. I don’t play it often, sticking with doubles for most of the playing I do.[/quote]

Good grief. A full-size bass trombone (yes, even single-valve bass trombones are typically the same size as double-valve basses) for Mozart (or even Beethoven)? This seems to me to be overkill. In some circles, even blasphemy! These composers couldn't have even imagined these monster instruments - or their huge sound. Time to lighten up, methinks!
</QUOTE>

Gerry Pagano of the St Louis Symphony has a small Edwards setup he uses: <YOUTUBE id="NPDPLgM9sYE">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPDPLgM9sYE</YOUTUBE>

The "smallness" of this horn doesn't really come from one valve... it's a smaller bell, single bore slide, tight leadpipe, rose brass, etc... As others have pointed out, making a small bass trombone requires a lot of adjustment beyond just the number valves.

There is a narrow band of repertoire that benefits from downsizing to a small bass. I would almost never recommend a student or amateur do it. Work on making nice sounds with your main ax. IMO If your main ax isn't flexible enough to play that literature, your equipment is probably too big.... downsize.

As to what composers imagined as a trombone sound, I think it's best not to go too far down the rabbithole and if you do, start a new thread. All I have to say about that is If you want to buy something approaching a Romantic era bass trombone, just go buy a Bach 42.

As to the OP, you could look into the boutique Edward that Pagano is playing in that video or buy an old Conn 70H or 72H. I don't recommend the 70H if weight is a concern because it's very front heavy.

Fafner · by **Fafner** » 2018-12-09 12:16 a.m.

[quote="Fafner"]<QUOTE author="Posaunus" post_id="72569" time="1544243114" user_id="158">

Good grief. A full-size bass trombone (yes, even single-valve bass trombones are typically the same size as double-valve basses) for Mozart (or even Beethoven)? This seems to me to be overkill. In some circles, even blasphemy! These composers couldn't have even imagined these monster instruments - or their huge sound. Time to lighten up, methinks![/quote]

Gerry Pagano of the St Louis Symphony has a small Edwards setup he uses: <YOUTUBE id="NPDPLgM9sYE">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPDPLgM9sYE</YOUTUBE>

The "smallness" of this horn doesn't really come from one valve... it's a smaller bell, single bore, rose brass, etc... As others have pointed out, making a small bass trombone requires a lot of adjustment beyond just the number valves.

There is a narrow band of repertoire that benefits from downsizing to a small bass. I would almost never recommend a student or amateur to do it. Work on making nice sounds with your main ax. IMO if your main ax isn't flexible enough to play that literature, your equipment is probably too big.... downsize.

As to what composers imagine in a trombone sound, I think it's best not to go too far down the rabbithole and if you do, start a new thread. All I have to say about that is If you want to buy something approaching a Romantic era bass trombone, just go buy a Bach 42.

As to the OP, you could look into the boutique Edward that Pagano is playing in that video or buy an old Conn 70H or 72H. I don't recommend the 70H if weight is a concern because it's very front heavy.
</QUOTE>

blast · by **blast** » 2018-12-09 3:57 a.m.

Looking from the other side....a few years back I remember we downsized for an early opera... me using my 1927 Conn 14H, which has 8 1/2" bell,.547 slide and was called a medium bass by Conn at the time.... after a couple of days, we asked the trumpets, who sit in front of us, what they thought to our 'period' sound..... they hadn't noticed that anything was different !

I have a 9" bell Rath single..... it has that unique 9" sound.....

Chris

Schlitz · 2018-12-09 4:09 a.m.

Schlitz · 2018-12-09 4:13 a.m.

blast · by **blast** » 2018-12-09 5:38 a.m.

[quote="Schlitz"]<QUOTE author="blast" post_id="72610" time="1544310273" user_id="52">
Today I was helping out at school concert and found that I was having to cover 1st and 2nd trombone parts on the bass....at one point I turned to the kid next to me and said that I wished that I had brought a tenor with me.... she said 'oh, is that a bass ? '.....

Actually, looking at the above,perhaps I just make small sound.....

Chris[/quote]

I see what you did there....
</QUOTE>

:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

GBP · by **GBP** » 2018-12-09 1:53 p.m.

[quote="Posaunus"]To be clear, my "points" - if any - were:

• A single-valve bass trombone does not sound appreciably different (or "smaller") relative to a double-valve bass of the same make, bore size, etc. It just looks smaller. That appearance should not be used as a point of prejudice or belittlement. For repertoire which does not require (or make advantageous) a second valve, there is (or should be) no difference musically between the two.

• Sometimes a full-sized modern bass trombone (with one or two valves) is a mismatch to the classical (and related) repertoire. I know many players now play everything with large equipment. I just happen to believe that for those works it can sound better with smaller instruments in the trombone section. Apparently, many of the players (and conductors) of several major symphony orchestras agree with me, since I see them "going small" for Mozart, Beethoven, etc. I did not intend to insult GBP or his playing; just trying to state my personal preference. Please accept my apologies, GBP. Play what works for you.
[/quote]

You are making the assumption that my 427 is a “large” horn. I downsized the slide, bell, leadpipe and mouthpiece. This subject has come up before and on one of those threads a very wise bass trombonist said for for music that requires a smaller sound he would play smaller. Light bulb moment. I now work on playing smaller, focused compact playing. The equipment we choose is important to a point. We as players have the ability

make adjustments to how we play that has a much larger impact then the horn we play on. I have heard players sound huge on small equipment and sound small on large equipment. It is not just about the horn.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2018-12-09 10:28 p.m.

Too add fuel to the fire, I've been using an Edwards 562 slide on my dependent tenor section (Shires 2VET7 tenor bell, YS tuning slide, Bach 36/42 rotors, closed wrap) for the last few months while I have a custom bass being built. Bandleaders thought it sounded great, didn't notice a difference.

I think its more about what is easier for you. In my case, I have to struggle to get some of the lower pedals out on it but it being a tenor bell section makes any of the parts that are "Trombone 4" parts but not necessarily a "Bass Trombone" part a piece of cake.

E.g. we played some pretty progressive charts in one of the bands. One of them asked for Pedal F -> Gb -> F -> Gb etc. etc. in whole notes (at a fairly brisk tempo) at a "crunchy" dynamic. Not a big deal on really any bass that I've played but with the tenor bell section, even with my normal 114/L/L8 it was not nearly as easy on this smaller bell section. Several of the charts ask for you to basically live down there. Copious Cs, Bs etc. Additionally, I have a Duo Gravis linkage on mine and I like it for most stuff but it was a real chore on that setup both ergonomically and range wise.

But the tradeoff is that of course the dexterity in the high range is superb. Of course, some of those parts go up to high D in the 4th part. Not as fun on a 'real' bass but on the tenor that comes out strong - no problem. In an ideal setting, I'd probably have two horns and use the smaller of the two for those types of charts. Of course, in an ideal world, all music would be idiomatic to the trombone so I guess we're not quite there yet 😉

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2018-12-10 8:15 a.m.

[quote="DougHulme"]... well I think my problem is not small sound but small mind! Its too much trouble to work out all these alternative positions and I find everything on a single comes second nature to me from learning in my youth.[/quote]

I think the "from learning in my youth" is often the primary factor here. I never learned on a tenor trombone, and acquired one only long after I picked up a bass (on which I'm self taught, as with the tuba and euph). So I never had the investment in, or habits of, playing all those "second nature" positions.

I LOVE my Gb valve particularly, and if I did ever have a single-valve horn would probably convert the valve to Gb rather than F. I virtually NEVER use 6th or 7th position, and this is great because my arthritic shoulder tends to suffer when I do. I sit in line with three very competent tenor players and am always amused/puzzled by seeing them saw back and forth between 6th/7th and the higher positions. But the force of habit is a strong thing.

thatme · by **thatme** » 2018-12-10 10:14 a.m.

[quote="ghmerrill"]<QUOTE author="DougHulme" post_id="72613" time="1544312834" user_id="3157">
... well I think my problem is not small sound but small mind! Its too much trouble to work out all these alternative positions and I find everything on a single comes second nature to me from learning in my youth.[/quote]

I think the "from learning in my youth" is often the primary factor here. I never learned on a tenor trombone, and acquired one only long after I picked up a bass (on which I'm self taught, as with the tuba and euph). So I never had the investment in, or habits of, playing all those "second nature" positions.

I LOVE my Gb valve particularly, and if I did ever have a single-valve horn would probably convert the valve to Gb rather than F. I virtually NEVER use 6th or 7th position, and this is great because my arthritic shoulder tends to suffer when I do. I sit in line with three very competent tenor players and am always amused/puzzled by seeing them saw back and forth between 6th/7th and the higher positions. But the force of habit is a strong thing.
</QUOTE>

As a bass doubler (from tuba) I also feel like I use the valves on my double bass A LOT more than other players. It’s really helpful to me to have two valves.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2018-12-10 1:02 p.m.

Is the 421 the same instrument as the 620G but with a single trigger?

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2018-12-10 2:20 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]Is the 421 the same instrument as the 620G but with a single trigger?[/quote]
It's quite likely that they are very close dimensionally, but there are differences in materials. The 620G has nickel silver outers while the 421G's are yellow brass. There are some other parts (cork barrels, for instance) that are nickel on the 620G and brass on the 421G.

Referring back to the original topic: If I were going to have a single as my only bass trombone, I would probably not choose a Yamaha. I'd want something with a workable E pull.

GBP · by **GBP** » 2018-12-10 2:31 p.m.

I have always wanted to try that Conn 88h tenor with the 9 inch bell and bass slide.

RConrad · by **RConrad** » 2018-12-10 3:01 p.m.

[quote="ghmerrill"]

I think the "from learning in my youth" is often the primary factor here. I never learned on a tenor trombone, and acquired one only long after I picked up a bass (on which I'm self taught, as with the tuba and euph). So I never had the investment in, or habits of, playing all those "second nature" positions.

I LOVE my Gb valve particularly, and if I did ever have a single-valve horn would probably convert the valve to Gb rather than F. I virtually NEVER use 6th or 7th position, and this is great because my arthritic shoulder tends to suffer when I do. I sit in line with three very competent tenor players and am always amused/puzzled by seeing them saw back and forth between 6th/7th and the higher positions. But the force of habit is a strong thing.[/quote]

It's part habit and part muscle memory I think. Since getting back to playing I've had to put some work into remembering to use my valves. When I was younger all I had was a small bore straight tenor so sometimes when I was getting back into the swing of things I'd jump from 1st to 6th or 7th without thinking about it. Had to put a stop to that as I'm short and not as young as I used to be. After reading around a bit here and finding some technique books I've just focused on being strategic and moving the slide the least I need to.

Also after reading your review of your bass I'm kinda tempted to try an instrument from Schiller.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2018-12-10 3:30 p.m.

[quote="JohnL"]<QUOTE author="Bach5G" post_id="72712" time="1544464970" user_id="2999">
Referring back to the original topic: If I were going to have a single as my only bass trombone, I would probably not choose a Yamaha. I'd want something with a workable E pull.[/quote]

John,

I totally agree with you on this one. An E pull would be very beneficial.

I only have the Yamaha 421G because I stumbled on it on eBay at a time a few years ago when I was looking for a bass trombone, submitted a lowball bid of $900 (apparently the only bid - perhaps because nobody else wanted a single-valve bass trombone!), and - to my surprise - won the auction! I was delighted when it arrived to find it in pristine, nearly unplayed condition. Other than the lack of an E pull, it's been a wonderful trombone for this doubler's needs. [But I do occasionally get those sideways glances from real (two-valve) bass trombonists!]</QUOTE>

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2018-12-10 4:01 p.m.

[quote="GBP"]I have always wanted to try that Conn 88h tenor with the 9 inch bell and bass slide.[/quote]
Funny thing is, there's not much 88H left on that configuration. Different slide, different bell (all the way back through the tuning slide).

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2018-12-10 4:50 p.m.

[quote="JohnL"]<QUOTE author="GBP" post_id="72717" time="1544470314" user_id="3368">
I have always wanted to try that Conn 88h tenor with the 9 inch bell and bass slide.[/quote]
Funny thing is, there's not much 88H left on that configuration. Different slide, different bell (all the way back through the tuning slide).
</QUOTE>

Really? What tuning slide? Is it the same as the King 5B maybe?

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2018-12-10 5:42 p.m.

[quote="RConrad"]Also after reading your review of your bass I'm kinda tempted to try an instrument from Schiller.[/quote]

Just go into a Shiller deal with your eyes open and don't have expectations that are unreasonable relative to price. One reason I went in that direction (after considering whether I wanted to try to spend more for either a "better Chinese" instrument or for a decent used horn of American/Japanese/etc. manufacture) was that I knew I really had no idea what I wanted in a bass trombone. I'd had a Holton TR181 twenty years earlier, but played it little, found it to be great in terms of quality and tone, but very bell heavy and cumbersome to hold and play.

So I KNEW that I'd want to experiment with whatever I got and didn't want to be intimidated with messing up either a fairly expensive or classic horn. The only work done on it that I didn't do myself was to pull the lead pipe -- and even that was a joint effort by me and the tech I go to. After some experimentation, I ended up with the Brass Ark lead pipe (MV50R) I've got in it, I modified the 2nd valve lever (including soldering on a 5 centime French coin as the "paddle"), removed the finger ring under the receiver and replaced it with a finger hook (really intended for a French horn) soldered to the front of the handslide support (instead of the rear where the ring was). I would have been reluctant to do that with a better/more expensive/classic horn. But for a < $600 horn? No problem. I also added a bullet brace.

After months of experimentation and trying to get to the point where playing the thing wasn't actually painful, the result was a horn that sits perfectly in my hand with neutral balance and is a pleasure to play. Every once in a while I think about replacing it with something a little better, but know I'd have to do similar modifications to a new horn and think that I'll just keep on with this one and live with the limitations of the valves (which from what I can tell are pretty much the limitations of the valves in the original King 7B).

I like it, and with a 112 rim on my DE LB mouthpiece can get very good access to the full pedal register and double valve stuff. But I find it's more comfortable to play with my 110 rim since in community band I end up playing a lot of pretty high 3rd parts or 2nd parts. And it's sure not a "symphonic bass trombone". But it absolutely kicks butt on pieces like "Pirates of the Caribbean". 8-)

<ATTACHMENT filename="mods.jpg" index="0">~~[attachment=0]~~mods.jpg</ATTACHMENT>

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2018-12-10 6:49 p.m.

[quote="Matt K"]Really? What tuning slide? Is it the same as the King 5B maybe?[/quote]
I think it's actually unique to the HKO. It has to mate with the King Symphony bell tail on one end and the 88H neckpipe on the other.

RConrad · 2018-12-11 3:46 p.m.

[quote="ghmerrill"]snip[/quote]

Oh if I get a Schiller I'm expecting to have to put a bit of work into it. I'd also be using it for Pep band so I don't want anything super nice. Looking at more compact instruments like a flugabone or marching baritone or even a bass trumpet. Basically something that could cover second trombone on pop/rock/marching pieces since, for some reason, the other trombones mostly play first...

Anyhow on topic I think the only thing I'd worry about with a single bass is making sure I could adjust the tuning. I wouldn't call the music I play in my band very intensive as we're a group made up of mostly by non-music majors but I've still had to play several low Cs so it'd take a bit of work to get those false tones down.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2018-12-11 4:17 p.m.

[quote="JohnL"]<QUOTE author="Matt K" post_id="72726" time="1544478651" user_id="48">Really? What tuning slide? Is it the same as the King 5B maybe?[/quote]
I think it's actually unique to the HKO. It has to mate with the King Symphony bell tail on one end and the 88H neckpipe on the other.
</QUOTE>

Very interesting! I would have expected it to be similar to the 5B or basically be a tenor with a 'normal' tenor tuning slide sort of like how Shires or Edwards will make a 9" bell for tenor or bass but they don't necessarily make anything that is tenor on the valve side but bass on the bell side.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2018-12-11 5:45 p.m.

[quote="Matt K"]Very interesting! I would have expected it to be similar to the 5B or basically be a tenor with a 'normal' tenor tuning slide sort of like how Shires or Edwards will make a 9" bell for tenor or bass but they don't necessarily make anything that is tenor on the valve side but bass on the bell side.[/quote]
The origins of that bell go back to the King Symphony models of the 1930's; it's not really a tenor bell or a bass bell by modern standards, but something in between - not just in flare diameter, but in the throat and tail, as well. When George McCracken designed the 4B and 4BF, he pretty much started with a clean page (and, I suspect, a directive to create something to compete with the Conn 8H/88H and Bach 42 series), so there are almost no parts in common between the 4BF and the old Symphony. They tagged the old Symphony (1480) with the 5B moniker for consistency, but didn't change the design at that point. Later on, they introduced a new 5B, based on the 4BF but with the old Symphony bell.

I made posts to the old forum with dimensions and pics comparing a late 1940's 1480 with a mid-late 1970's 5B, but I'm afraid they didn't make the archive. I'll have to try to find them on my various computers. My recollection is that the neckpipe of the 1480 was significantly larger then that of the later 5B, as was the f-attachment bore.

EDIT:

Found the pics in the TTF Gallery on the Wayback Machine:

<LINK_TEXT text="https://web.archive.org/web/20111127160 ... ew;id=1752">https://web.archive.org/web/20111127160145/http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=1752</LINK_TEXT>

<LINK_TEXT text="https://web.archive.org/web/20111127152 ... ew;id=1751">https://web.archive.org/web/20111127152428/http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=1751</LINK_TEXT>

<LINK_TEXT text="https://web.archive.org/web/20111127160 ... ew;id=1750">https://web.archive.org/web/20111127160434/http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=1750</LINK_TEXT>

Savio · by **Savio** » 2018-12-13 4:47 p.m.

Sorry I bring this topic up again but…….

Yes, its so good to learn all the possibilities a double valve in line have. Its in fact nearly endless. With a little risk to also confuse a beginner. But I have still have to say, its not a goal to move the slide as little as possible. It is an essential skill for us to learn how to move the slide. If we have the time we should listen and see Ray Premru. Its lot on internet with the Phillip Jones Brass Ensemble. He play a single and as you see he often use 6th and 7nt position. He just sound fantastic, big sound with amazing projecting aspect. That's his choice and it will not fit all, but I really think we all should try to learn to move the slide. After all, we are trombone players. It might come useful one day…….

Leif

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2018-12-13 4:54 p.m.

[quote="Savio"]Sorry I bring this topic up again but…….

Yes, its so good to learn all the possibilities a double valve in line have. Its in fact nearly endless. With a little risk to also confuse a beginner. But I have still have to say, its not a goal to move the slide as little as possible. It is an essential skill for us to learn how to move the slide. If we have the time we should listen and see Ray Premru. Its lot on internet with the Phillip Jones Brass Ensemble. He play a single and as you see he often use 6th and 7nt position. He just sound fantastic, big sound with amazing projecting aspect. That's his choice and it will not fit all, but I really think we all should try to learn to move the slide. After all, we are trombone players. It might come useful one day…….

Leif[/quote]

On the other hand, particularly on the commercial side of things, it amazes me how little arm motion there is when you look at some of the great tenor players. Like this video of ~~[url=https://youtu.be/bBRpmnQvU-0?t=160]~~Watrous playing Spain. I count two notes outside of 4th? If practice + valves lets you have that degree of dexterity... worth it?

GBP · by **GBP** » 2018-12-14 12:39 p.m.

[quote="Savio"]Sorry I bring this topic up again but…….

Yes, its so good to learn all the possibilities a double valve in line have. Its in fact nearly endless. With a little risk to also confuse a beginner. But I have still have to say, its not a goal to move the slide as little as possible. It is an essential skill for us to learn how to move the slide. If we have the time we should listen and see Ray Premru. Its lot on internet with the Phillip Jones Brass Ensemble. He play a single and as you see he often use 6th and 7nt position. He just sound fantastic, big sound with amazing projecting aspect. That's his choice and it will not fit all, but I really think we all should try to learn to move the slide. After all, we are trombone players. It might come useful one day…….

Leif[/quote]

I think the goal is to reproduce the music in a credible manner. The approach is less important than the final product. Blair Bollinger does what works for him as did George Roberts.

Digidog · by **Digidog** » 2018-12-14 4:25 p.m.

[quote="Posaunus"]<QUOTE author="BGuttman" post_id="72339" time="1543978963" user_id="53">

... the single valve bass may limit your acceptance. Not "big enough" for bass, and too big for tenor.[/quote]

Bruce,

I think you are misinformed by your preconceptions. What makes you say that a single valve bass is "not 'big enough' for bass?" The Yamaha 421 (AKA YBL-421G) does indeed have only a single rotary valve, but has a bore size of 0.563" - probably a bit larger than whatever bass trombone many TromboneChatters (including you) play. As far as I know, adding a second valve does not make a trombone play any "bigger" - in fact the extra resistance of a second valve could actually restrict air flow, thus decreasing the sound out of the bell! The Yamaha 421 seems to produce a fine "big" sound, when played by a player who can produce such a sound. I believe that the mouthpiece used (and the player behind it) have much more influence on the sound than the number of valves.

{Mouthpiece size is another discussion. I'm on the side of Chris Stearn (Blast) on this topic - bigger is not necessarily better. In any case, if you are so inclined, you can use a mouthpiece the size of a toilet bowl on any single-valve bass - they all have the same large shank receivers as their double-valve counterparts.}

In my view, a second valve is added to a trombone to facilitate the playing of certain (especially low) passages, with a few ancillary side effects:

• It's trendy, and looks cool (shows a lot of brass) - could impress your friends and those who don't know any better;

• It may help get you an audition for certain ensembles (e.g., a major symphony orchestra);

• You won't get laughed at or scorned by double-valve bigots;

• You may suffer health consequences from hefting the extra weight of a double-valve trombone (see the recent thread started by Doug Yeo), which are lessened by playing a lighter-weight single valve instrument.

But back to Walldaja's original query: A single-valve bass, such as the Yamaha 421-G is a real bass trombone, and as such is not interchangeable with a tenor trombone in most situations for most players. As Kingfan has suggested, a "concert tenor" with an F-attachment and a 0.547" bore would be a better fit. With it, he could play all the low notes he can play on his single-valve bass (with a nice full sound) and the high notes would be easier to play (and probably sound better).

Good luck with the experiment, Walldaja!
</QUOTE>

I regularly play a 421 professionally, and there are absoulutely no problems for me to provide adequate bass trombone playing in either big band or orchestral settings. In fact: I have only felt the need for a second valve those few times when the music has been idiomatically written for a bass trombone with two valves; music that require fast position changes in low register. So I side with you on this matter; and I agree: The bass trombone is a separate instrument from the tenor trombone, and I consider them not interchangeable from musical reasons.

However, the second valve does facilitate playing somewhat in some circumstances, and it sure looks brassy cool to some (simple?) minds, but not enough for me to motivate buying a two-valved trombone for now.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2018-12-14 4:40 p.m.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I interpreted the original post, the OP wants to use a single valve bass for all his playing.

I know of a few people using extremely large bore setups as that is what makes the sound they are after. And you can make a single valve bass do almost all the playing you would see in an amateur setting.

Would I use one if I were in Toby Oft's place? No. But in Community Band? Sure.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2018-12-14 5:57 p.m.

[quote="Savio"]Sorry I bring this topic up again but…….

Yes, its so good to learn all the possibilities a double valve in line have. Its in fact nearly endless. With a little risk to also confuse a beginner. But I have still have to say, its not a goal to move the slide as little as possible. It is an essential skill for us to learn how to move the slide. If we have the time we should listen and see Ray Premru. Its lot on internet with the Phillip Jones Brass Ensemble. He play a single and as you see he often use 6th and 7nt position. He just sound fantastic, big sound with amazing projecting aspect. That's his choice and it will not fit all, but I really think we all should try to learn to move the slide. After all, we are trombone players. It might come useful one day…….

Leif[/quote]

I agree, Leif! :good:

We play trombone and not a slide tuba. A lot of valve work will be heard and there is something to the sound of a single that I like very much A single has a lot of advantages on all notes but the C and B. Premru used the Holton 169, I understand why.

I have decided the Holton 169 will be my primary bastrombone from now on. I also think most things are playable on the single and if you know the fake notes then you have more options.

A double is needed if there are sustained loud low B's and C's. Those two notes is wheere the double has an real advantage, and maybe if you play very technical stuff in the low range (I don't) and if you have no possibility to pull the tuning slide and retune the f-valve, and if you can not do the fake-notes This is when you need a double.

/Tom

brtnats · by **brtnats** » 2018-12-15 8:34 a.m.

I play a Yamaha 822G in a community band, and as an all-around gigging bass trombone. I’ve done stints in big bands, quintets, Dixieland band, and pit orchestras with it too. I think the most important option for a gigging bass trombonist is flexibility, and I’m glad to have found it in the 822G.

I keep 2 mouthpieces (Yamaha Yeo and 59L) and the valve converter in my bag. If I show up and need to cover a tuba or bass book, sans tuba, the second valve is a necessity for me. If I need to read thorough a euphonium book or a second trombone book, I take off the valve and use a smaller mouthpiece. The horn instantly jumps and responds to these changes. My preferred configuration though? Single valve, tuned to C at the bumpers, and my larger mouthpiece. All the sound that a single-valve low C can give you, with the crispness and reliability of a tenor from middle C up. I think it’s a shame that removable second valves became optional when they were once standard, and I really enjoy the flexibility that the removable second gives me.

Single valve as primary instrument? If you want to only play trombone parts, and never anticipate being thrown into an awkward situation, then yes. And the Yamaha horns seem pretty sensitive to mouthpiece changes, which certainly helps. Me? I love to option of having that second valve when I need it, and removing it when I don’t.

walldaja · by **walldaja** » 2019-02-12 4:53 p.m.

Thanks for your replies and advice. Ordered a Yamaha 421G, kept the AC280, and have a Getzen 351 for light stuff. Can't wait for the delivery!

trombonedemon · by **trombonedemon** » 2019-02-17 12:02 p.m.

I've played Blue Shades with a Benge 190 F the Bass Trombone part. I was cranking the heck out those low C's. The problem was, I wasn't familiar with actual bass bone. It wasn't easier or harder, to play both. You either have bass bone chops or you don't, like a previous poster posted; I have known a great many troubles, but most of them have never happened.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2019-02-18 12:55 p.m.

I subbed in a rehearsal when only 2/4 bones showed up. I had a trigger so it must be a bass trombone, right?

So, after an evening of honking away, the leader complimented me on my great bass trombone sound. LOL, I was playing my .525 Shires with a Schilke 51 s/s mpc.

One of my favourite bass trombone bits is Steely Dan’s Royal Scam except it’s most likely an 88H. Becker and Fagen must have liked it too, because it’s quite prominent in the mix.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2019-02-18 1:11 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]I subbed in a rehearsal when only 2/4 bones showed up. I had a trigger so it must be a bass trombone, right?

So, after an evening of honking away, the leader complimented me on my great bass trombone sound.[/quote]

Several years ago I joined a big band, playing the 4th trombone part. No one complained then about my sound, using a Conn 88H with a Bach 4G or 3G mouthpiece. I think I honked away pretty good in those days.

After a few years off (career intervened), I rejoined the band - with my new "full-size" bass trombone (a single-trigger Yamaha YBL-421G, 0.563" bore, 9½" bell). Now, everyone seems to be impressed (visually) by the big, shiny bass trombone! I still happily honk away, trying to not overwhelm those poor puny tenor trombones the other 3 guys play. ;)

bigbandbone · by **bigbandbone** » 2019-05-20 3:24 p.m.

[quote="Posaunus"]<QUOTE author="Bach5G" post_id="78519" time="1550512513" user_id="2999">
I subbed in a rehearsal when only 2/4 bones showed up. I had a trigger so it must be a bass trombone, right?

So, after an evening of honking away, the leader complimented me on my great bass trombone sound.[/quote]

Several years ago I joined a big band, playing the 4th trombone part. No one complained then about my sound, using a Conn 88H with a Bach 4G or 3G mouthpiece. I think I honked away pretty good in those days.

After a few years off (career intervened), I rejoined the band - with my new "full-size" bass trombone (a single-trigger Yamaha YBL-421G, 0.563" bore, 9½" bell). Now, everyone seems to be impressed (visually) by the big, shiny bass trombone! I still happily honk away, trying to not overwhelm those poor puny tenor trombones the other 3 guys play. ;)
</QUOTE>

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