V vs U shape mouthpiece Sound

BrianJohnston · by **BrianJohnston** » 2023-06-26 4:40 p.m.

Hi all,

Curious on this subject. In what way does a U vs V shape effect the sound (Considering all other aspects of the mouthpiece are identical)

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2023-06-26 5:09 p.m.

I bet Doug Elliott could provide an educated response.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2023-06-26 5:41 p.m.

I have made some V shaped cups on special order. With my system it's fairly easy to do that and keep everything else the same.

A V is going to have less cup volume but it's a different effect than a shallower cup. I think think the best way to describe it is that it sounds more like a French horn.

I guess I should do a spectrum analysis and see what the actual difference is.

I have an LT G-V in stock if you want to compare it to my regular G cup. Are you going to be at ITF? I wouldn't normally bring something like that, but I can.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2023-06-26 8:29 p.m.

My main experience with V shaped mpcs has been with bass bones and euphonium. To me, the V shape has made for a more immediate sound and somewhat brighter or edgier sound. They are used a lot with tubas (Helleberg).

Doug will I'm sure give a more researched answer, but this has just been what I've noticed from some comparisons. .

u_2bobone · by **u_2bobone** » 2023-06-26 9:28 p.m.

Bill Reichenbach gave me a mouthpiece to try and it wasn't removed from my horn for the next 20 years. It turned out to be a scaled-down copy of a Helleberg tuba mouthpiece. It had a VERY funnel shaped cup. When given a broad, warm airstream it returned a dark, chunky sound. When it was given a fast, cooling airstream you could cut a log in half from across a room. It was an amazingly adaptable mouthpiece. I pulled it out recently and gave it a run. It verified the confidence that I had in its performance for those many years. There is nowhere the same versatility to be found in a "U" shaped cup. "U" shaped cups can be excellent but I think not as versatile. Just my opinion. :idk:

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2023-06-26 10:51 p.m.

The question was "In what way does a U vs V shape effect the sound (Considering all other aspects of the mouthpiece are identical)"

My answer is truly about ALL other aspects being identical. Not some other mouthpiece that is a conical design.

blast · by **blast** » 2023-06-27 4:38 a.m.

Well, Doug is probably the only person on the planet who can answer the original question exactly as asked. Still, it is nice to see a post from 2bobone...always interesting.

BrianJohnston · by **BrianJohnston** » 2023-06-27 10:49 a.m.

I won't be at ITF this year unfortunately, but I am interested in trying those pieces back to back.

Macbone1 · by **Macbone1** » 2023-06-27 11:16 a.m.

Most or all standard Marcinkiewicz mouthpieces have a V shaped cup, which is part of what gives them their character: Lively response, great projection, rich tone. IMHO one has to work a bit harder for the high notes with a V cup than with a U cup, but your results may vary.

BrianJohnston · by **BrianJohnston** » 2023-07-03 1:23 p.m.

Thanks to Doug Elliot for being so kind to send me 2 of his mouthpieces:

G-star

G-V

I made a video comparing the two of them, and also including my daily driver to hear what i'm currently used to playing on;

<YOUTUBE id="tvRIJOYumr8"><LINK_TEXT text="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvRIJOY ... anJohnston">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvRIJOYumr8&ab_channel=BrianJohnston</LINK_TEXT></YOUTUBE>

Some thoughts:

The G-star felt quite larger although the cup depths are the same, the cup width is not.

The G-V brought out brighter overtones, where the G* tended to be more equal projecting the overtones.

The G-star tended to be more full sounding where the G-V tended to have a thinner sound.

The G-V was a bit more uncontrollable, and was harder to articulate clearly where the G-star felt easier.

Overall I preferred the G-V mostly due to it's sound, but i'm sure someone else would try them both back to back and have a completely different take on the whole thing.

Curious on everyone else's thoughts.

BrassSection · by **BrassSection** » 2023-07-03 1:33 p.m.

On my tenor King, Bach 12SC gives a bright, punchy sound when played hard, mellows out real nice when I back off. Overall the perfect sound for contemporary Christian music. The King mp that came with the horn is V shaped, and very much makes the horn sound like a French horn. If it was more comfortable to play, I could probably retire my French horn, but when the song we’re playing needs a French horn sound, I pull out my French horn…usually averages being used once every 6 weeks.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2023-07-03 5:29 p.m.

I should probably mention that this mouthpiece was my LT series. The previous comparison video done by William Lang was my XT series. The difference is the diameter at the top of the cup, where the rim meets. LT is smaller, so It has a little more compact sound than XT, and the V cup takes that even farther. The V cup that I had already made was LT.

hyperbolica · 2023-07-03 5:41 p.m.

[quote="BrianJohnston"]I made a video comparing the two of them, and also including my daily driver to hear what i'm currently used to playing on;....

Curious on everyone else's thoughts.[/quote]

Your recording quality could be better, but I could definitely hear more clarity with the V cup. I think in most cases for me anyway, that would be the preferred sound.

Ps, edit:

The V-ish pieces I use are the Ferguson V (1.5 size) and Ferguson L (1.25 size) and on euph a Wick Steven Mead. On tuba I sometimes use a Kelly yellow Helleberg. Generally I use DE stuff, but for small bass, the Ferguson V does wonders on an 88h, and the L adds a little bite to my 1662i.

BrianJohnston · by **BrianJohnston** » 2023-07-03 5:48 p.m.

I’m wondering, would a deeper V shape carry the same sound concept, or would it just get darker like a cup?

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2023-07-03 6:26 p.m.

Same sound concept, but somewhat darker.

I could make some, but right now I'm getting ready for ITF.

BrianJohnston · by **BrianJohnston** » 2023-07-06 8:38 p.m.

Thank you. Another question, if I switch from a hybrid cup shape to a pure V in the future, is this going to make me want to change my throat/backbore size? Or would those aspects feel the same?

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2023-07-06 11:10 p.m.

If you're asking me, I have no idea. I haven't done any experimenting in that direction.

blast · by **blast** » 2023-07-07 4:18 a.m.

[quote="BrianJohnston"]Thank you. Another question, if I switch from a hybrid cup shape to a pure V in the future, is this going to make me want to change my throat/backbore size? Or would those aspects feel the same?[/quote]

The only truly V shaped mouthpiece I own is a very old French bass trombone mouthpiece...that has NO throat as we know it and is very large as it transitions into a backbore. It shouldn't work...but it does, like my PHD bass piece with a C cup that then goes to a small V cup....shouldn't work, but it does. The more mouthpieces I see, the less I know.

BrianJohnston · by **BrianJohnston** » 2023-10-16 9:44 p.m.

Wanted to bring this thread back to life as I have moved in the direction of V-shape mouthpieces and have figured out a lot of the differences.

Generally said:

U shape = More depth, can have more edge when pushed.

V shape = More direct, thinner, generally a rounder/smoother sound overall.

dukesboneman · by **dukesboneman** » 2023-10-17 10:11 a.m.

The only 2 truly "V" shaped Trombone mouthpiece I`ve ever seen was a

1) Jet Tone Symphony Bass Trombone .

Very thin rim, then straight down into the cup then a very pronounced V into the throat.

I bought in the early 1970`s and it was THE WORST mouthpiece I`ve ever tried to play.

2) The Wessex/Young Mouthpiece that comes with their Super Tenor. Very V and no focus, airy sound

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2023-10-17 10:19 a.m.

The only one I've seen is the Toby Oft alto mouthpiece. V shaped right up into the rim. Looks very different from any other mouthpiece I've seen.

WilliamLang · by **WilliamLang** » 2023-10-17 11:16 a.m.

I've been trying a lot of mouthpieces, and it's tricky for me to know what is a V vs. a U shape, to be honest.

Some mouthpieces that fit the V profile to me would be a CL4, a Bousfield S4, and a Parke-Friedman piece. Again, with the caveat that some people might tell me those aren't V shapes, for my playing style I notice a very bright and direct timbre on those, but to my ears I don't enjoy a certain airy-ness on the articulation.

With more what I would consider to be U shaped cups, such as the LI Brass 550E that I play on and most of the Alessi style mouthpieces, as well as a Greg Black Kitzman design, I find that for myself, I get for lack of a better term, a fuller, rounder sound, maybe not as piercing on the articulation, but easier to push to higher volume with consistent timbre.

Some mouthpieces that feel in the middle of those parameters to me would be Doug's XT series, a Willie's custom design Peter Steiner, and most older Laskey mouthpieces, which I adore for their ability to have quite clear articulations on top of a rounder sound model. These pieces always felt like Goldilock's pieces for me, very versatile and adaptable. Now whether they are V or U is again up for debate.

Then we have the Hammond Steve Witser mouthpiece - which from what I understand most Hammonds fall in the U shape bucket. But when I play that piece I would swear from listening back that is has characteristics similar to a V shape cup.

So what have I learned? Not sure! There's so many variables in the spectrum of design and everyone's playing style that it's hard to put oneself in a box. I find myself gravitating towards the really deep and I believe "U" shaped design of the LI Brass 550E, but more than a few other people really like my sound on the "V" profile pieces.

Hope this helps the conversation somehow!

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2023-10-17 12:59 p.m.

Alan Raph used to describe the sound of a V cup as "beret and spats" or sometimes French.

For me the classic V shape is the Helleberg tuba mouthpiece, which is not really a true V -- it has somewhat of a bulge, but not a real U. There are now Helleberg style mouthpieces for trombone. In fact, I'd probably call my 4CL a Helleberg rather than a true V.

I have only one true V shaped mouthpiece. It's an old trombone mouthpiece that fits the receivers of 100 years ago. I believe it's a Conn model (Innes?). I find it has a sound that doesn't blend with what we like to play today. I wouldn't call it bad; just very different.

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V vs U shape mouthpiece Sound