Jay collects.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.chicagotribune.com/entertai ... story.html">https://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/ct-ent-cso-brass-instruments-rare-collection-20230629-vn5d5nh3yfgf3c2ln4mz562yxm-story.html</LINK_TEXT>

Is anyone able to access this article? The link keeps redirecting me to a Chicago Tribune subscription advertisement.

[quote="Crazy4Tbone86"]Is anyone able to access this article? The link keeps redirecting me to a Chicago Tribune subscription advertisement.[/quote]
Subscriber content only...

<ATTACHMENT filename="Nothing else sounds like vintage brass_ These CSO musicians are avid collectors of age-old instruments.pdf" index="0">[attachment=0]Nothing else sounds like vintage brass_ These CSO musicians are avid collectors of age-old instruments.pdf</ATTACHMENT>

Here's the article as a PDF for those who want to read.

Thanks, Aidan!

How cool that some of the top guys in the profession (1) care about music with older horns and their unique sound, (2) have rooms dedicated to that passion.

[quote="Burgerbob"]Nothing else sounds like vintage brass_ These CSO musicians are avid collectors of age-old instruments.pdf

Here's the article as a PDF for those who want to read.[/quote]

Thx Aidan.

Fun read! Thank guys

I think it's way cool that they do that, and that's what first got me interested and curious about traditional German trombones already when I was a teenager.

I do have some reservations though:

[tl;dr: "I must be fun at parties" rant]

There's one bit I found particularly interesting. They say they use rotary trumpet for "the old" repertoire written for it, and then for Wagner and Dvorak "it's always a debate". Ironically those last two are the only ones named who actually scored for valved trumpets at all (rotary or otherwise), but not even always. Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert, Mendelssohn; none of them wrote for rotary trumpets; they wrote for natural trumpets, or for Mendelssohn, short-form stopped trumpet and/or slide trumpet. Bb and C trumpets like the use, rotary or otherwise, are a late-19th century innovation. The first ubiquitous valve trumpets in orchestras were F trumpets (with crooks to lower them to E, Eb, D and low C), which sound extremely different than the higher pitched instruments.

Not dissing their use of German instruments to achieve a different sound in the modern orchestra at all, I think that's great, and more variety is always better than less. I just wish they stuck to saying they do it for artistic reasons (e.g. because they like the classic sound of mid-20th century German orchestra recordings, or want to perpetuate the tradition of their German CSO predecessors), good enough reasons in themselves, rather than claim a pseudo-historical rationale invoking "using the instruments/getting the sound the composers were writing for".

Amen

[quote="LeTromboniste"]Not dissing their use of German instruments to achieve a different sound in the modern orchestra at all, I think that's great, and more variety is always better than less.[/quote]
Good information, Maximilien.

I just wish they stuck to saying they do it for artistic reasons (e.g. because they like the classic sound of mid-20th century German orchestra recordings, or want to perpetuate the tradition of their German CSO predecessors), good enough reasons in themselves, rather than claim a pseudo-historical rationale invoking "using the instruments/getting the sound the composers were writing for".

As Harrison wrote, "Amen!" :good:

Perhaps they (the CSO brass players) saw modern German orchestras playing rotary trumpets, and thought that must have been "authentic" ?

I personally like the sound and appearance of the German brass instruments (nice change of pace) - but now know that it's not what the composers wrote for or expected to hear (any more than they did modern American low brass instruments).

[quote="Posaunus"]I personally like the sound and appearance of the German brass instruments (nice change of pace) - but now know that it's not what the composers wrote for or expected to hear (any more than they did modern American low brass instruments).[/quote]

Well, to be fair certain German trombones made in the traditional style today are still very close to the original models of the mid-19th century that Mendelssohn, Schumann, Brahms, Wagner would have been familiar with. Less so in the case of other very popular traditional German designs, in particular the very small bored ones that became popular in the 20th century like the famous Kruspe model Weschke. I believe Jay Friedman's main German tenor is a Kruspe Penzel, which does have its lineage directly from the 1850's models.

Did anyone notice the Butler outer slide on the Bach 45? :cool:

It's in that first photo of Jay.

[quote="DaveAshley"]Did anyone notice the Butler outer slide on the Bach 45? :cool:

It's in that first photo of Jay.[/quote]

https://www.jayfriedman.net/equipment/

A hack for hidden pages....

To see pages hit Control A /Control C. Open Word and paste.

[quote="LeTromboniste"]Well, to be fair certain German trombones made in the traditional style today are still very close to the original models of the mid-19th century that Mendelssohn, Schumann, Brahms, Wagner would have been familiar with. Less so in the case of other very popular traditional German designs, in particular the very small bored ones that became popular in the 20th century like the famous Kruspe model Weschke. I believe Jay Friedman's main German tenor is a Kruspe Penzel, which does have its lineage directly from the 1850's models.[/quote]

I believe it is a misconception to think that there is is just one type of German romantic trombone, the Sattler-Penzel large bore. When studying catalogues and surviving instruments (especially from churches), we also find more narrow bore instruments (still very different from French or British instruments or today’s narrow bore). For instance, many makers including Penzel offered entire sets of four Kirchenposaunen from f-bass, tenor, alto, and b-discant. (Yes, soprano trombones were in use in the 19th century in church music as demonstrated by surviving instruments and choral books beyond the Moravian tradition.) Typically the tenor of such Kirchenposaunen were a bit more narrow. I know such surving Kirchenposaunen from Saxony but also from the court of King Ernst August I from Hannover from the first half of the 19th century. When I envision let’s say the chorale of Schumann’s Rhenish symphony, I think of Kirchenposaunen rather than a set of German romantic symphonic trombones. Schumann did likely hear and experience such trombones in churches at his time.

Perhaps the Kruspe Weschke is an interesting hybrid between the Sattler-Penzel style symphonic tenorbass trombone and the tenor Kirchenposaune. It is an extremely versatile instrument. It does not surprise me at all that it was the instrument of choice of leading soloists at that time, who must have had first hand experience with all kinds of German trombones developed during the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th century. It ads nice color and depth to a choral, balances easily with two violines in Sonatas a 3 of Bertali and Fux, sings a velvet tenor in a romantic song of Schumann, Brahms, etc. and then also allows you to cut through the orchestra in Tschaikowsky (without covering up other instruments). Its range of colors and dynamics is simply phenomenal (of course with the right training and mouthpiece - it is not an easy instrument to play because there are so many more dimensions to playing that need control).

I believe there were also different traditions of trombone sections in German orchestras. I think there were sections using three Weite 3 trombones (like three Sattler-Penzel style tenorbass trombones). And then there were sections using the Weite 1-2-3 idea (or Weite 1-3-4). Former (three Weite 3) sound very homogeneous but a bit thick. Later would be more transparent and colorful very much like the Berlin Phil till the retirement of Christhard Gössling this year who played on a Kruspe Weschke. Given that quite a few romantic trombone concertos were written for “bass trombone” or “tenorbass trombone” (meant to be a Sattler-Penzel style trombone of Queisser), I would expect that Weite-1-2-3 sections where not too uncommon in German orchestras, which is far way from today’s two-American-large-bore-plus-a-modern-bass-trombone-section.

I think it is great that Jay and colleagues experiment and use older German instruments. Since symphonic instruments became so similar in the second half of the 20th century and sound concepts became so universal through recordings, it should be more than welcomed to experiment, vary, and explore different sound concepts. It also makes the life of trombonists more interesting.

[quote="Burgerbob"]Nothing else sounds like vintage brass_ These CSO musicians are avid collectors of age-old instruments.pdf

Here's the article as a PDF for those who want to read.[/quote]
Thanks :good:

Interesting to read there are collectors among the top musicians too. They too appreciate instruments out of fashion because of their sound. To read that mr Friedman thinks his best trombone is an old German trombone that has an unplayable slide, and when he found it had holes in it and can't be used. It is still the best because it has the best sound. That's one way to look at it. I llke it.

/Tom