Gold plating a mouthpiece
- Rusty
- Posts: 470
- Joined: Jun 01, 2018
Out of interest, what differences would I get in sound, response and feel from gold plating a mouthpiece (that’s currently standard silver plate)? I’m aware it may feel a little more slippery or roomier on the chops.
- Crazy4Tbone86
- Posts: 1654
- Joined: Jan 14, 2020
I have never noticed an acoustical difference when I had the rim or rim + cup plated in gold. To me , it just feels smoother. I don’t notice the slippery thing anymore because I have played on gold rims for so long.
- JLivi
- Posts: 870
- Joined: May 10, 2018
I don't notice a difference in sound. I prefer the way it feels on my face versus silver.
[quote="Crazy4Tbone86"]I don’t notice the slippery thing anymore because I have played on gold rims for so long.[/quote]
I only notice a difference when I switch back to silver and think to myself, "wow this is harder to play because my chops are "sticking." Also, when I sweat (play outside in the heat), it's almost impossible to play my gold mouthpiece because there's too much moisture and it's super slippery.
[quote="Crazy4Tbone86"]I don’t notice the slippery thing anymore because I have played on gold rims for so long.[/quote]
I only notice a difference when I switch back to silver and think to myself, "wow this is harder to play because my chops are "sticking." Also, when I sweat (play outside in the heat), it's almost impossible to play my gold mouthpiece because there's too much moisture and it's super slippery.
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
Oddly enough for me, I feel the same way about playing with silver OR gold, especially outdoors. I’m super spoiled on Lexan and find anything else to be way too sticky. Delrin is a really close 2nd. I think someone makes Teflon rims maybe I should try that :lol:
- LIBrassCo
- Posts: 585
- Joined: Feb 24, 2019
[quote="Matt K"]Oddly enough for me, I feel the same way about playing with silver OR gold, especially outdoors. I’m super spoiled on Lexan and find anything else to be way too sticky. Delrin is a really close 2nd. I think someone makes Teflon rims maybe I should try that :lol:[/quote]
Fiber filled pfte. I looked into it. Crazy expensive stuff.
Fiber filled pfte. I looked into it. Crazy expensive stuff.
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
Maybe someone can make me a rim out of polished marble. I’m sure that would be cheap and work perfectly!
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
There's a major problem with machining anything out of Teflon, and that's that it's so slippery it's impossible to hold it securely in the machine.
Delrin has formaldehyde in it, that's why I don't use it. Although it's extremely easy to work with.
Delrin has formaldehyde in it, that's why I don't use it. Although it's extremely easy to work with.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Has anyone else tried an AR Resonance mouthpiece with the cup made from machined [water] buffalo horn?
I obtained one {25.1 V+ 60} from a TromboneChat member last year and really enjoy playing it with a 0.500" or 0.508" bore trombone. The "mouth feel" is pleasing, the sound is nice - and I love the reaction from other trombonists, who apparently have never seen a black mouthpiece cup!
I obtained one {25.1 V+ 60} from a TromboneChat member last year and really enjoy playing it with a 0.500" or 0.508" bore trombone. The "mouth feel" is pleasing, the sound is nice - and I love the reaction from other trombonists, who apparently have never seen a black mouthpiece cup!
- balkansobranie
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Jul 20, 2023
Interesting thread. I have just sent off my 32 year old Byron Peebles ET1 to be gold plated. My newer ET1 (a mere 24 years old) is in good shape (due to only being lightly used for 3 or 4 years) and has the original silver plating on it, so I'll look forward to comparing them.
I do remember the silver finish feeling different when I moved to the ET1 from a gold Denis Wick mouthpiece back in 1992, and thinking at the time that I prefered the feel of the gold plating.
If I like the gold plating I'll send the newer ET1 off in due course, and my model 8 too.
I do remember the silver finish feeling different when I moved to the ET1 from a gold Denis Wick mouthpiece back in 1992, and thinking at the time that I prefered the feel of the gold plating.
If I like the gold plating I'll send the newer ET1 off in due course, and my model 8 too.
- balkansobranie
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Jul 20, 2023
Well the ET1 came back from the platers this morning, and I had a play of both to see if I could perceive any difference.
My conclusion was that the slightly warmer and smoother feeling of the gold plating suited me better than silver, and I do prefer it. However, it is not a huge difference.
I don't know how long aftermarket gold plating lasts normally? The quality of the job was very good, I used a firm that specialise in mouthpiece refurbishment and plating. I'll send off my reserve silver ET1 for the same treament.
My conclusion was that the slightly warmer and smoother feeling of the gold plating suited me better than silver, and I do prefer it. However, it is not a huge difference.
I don't know how long aftermarket gold plating lasts normally? The quality of the job was very good, I used a firm that specialise in mouthpiece refurbishment and plating. I'll send off my reserve silver ET1 for the same treament.
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
[quote="balkansobranie"]Well the ET1 came back from the platers this morning, and I had a play of both to see if I could perceive any difference.
My conclusion was that the slightly warmer and smoother feeling of the gold plating suited me better than silver, and I do prefer it. However, it is not a huge difference.
I don't know how long aftermarket gold plating lasts normally? The quality of the job was very good, I used a firm that specialise in mouthpiece refurbishment and plating. I'll send off my reserve silver ET1 for the same treament.[/quote]
Who did you use for the plating?
My conclusion was that the slightly warmer and smoother feeling of the gold plating suited me better than silver, and I do prefer it. However, it is not a huge difference.
I don't know how long aftermarket gold plating lasts normally? The quality of the job was very good, I used a firm that specialise in mouthpiece refurbishment and plating. I'll send off my reserve silver ET1 for the same treament.[/quote]
Who did you use for the plating?
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Aftermarket plating can vary a lot.
Some decorative gold plate (like you would get at a Jeweler's) is only 5 micro-inches (.125 micron, I think). This thickness can easily be rubbed off with active mouthpiece use.
A good mouthpiece plater will put on at least 5 times that thickness because the coating has to be planned to endure rubbing and abrasion from active use. That is the thickness we used to put on the gold contacts (fingers) of circuit boards, which have to withstand plugging into and out of connectors.
I'm not sure who does mouthpiece plating in the UK. Here in the States, Doug Elliott does plating, and I believe John Stork does as well. There used to be a company called GoldChops, but the feedback I've seen on the Chat has been mixed (they probably try to skimp on gold thickness). Good luck.
Some decorative gold plate (like you would get at a Jeweler's) is only 5 micro-inches (.125 micron, I think). This thickness can easily be rubbed off with active mouthpiece use.
A good mouthpiece plater will put on at least 5 times that thickness because the coating has to be planned to endure rubbing and abrasion from active use. That is the thickness we used to put on the gold contacts (fingers) of circuit boards, which have to withstand plugging into and out of connectors.
I'm not sure who does mouthpiece plating in the UK. Here in the States, Doug Elliott does plating, and I believe John Stork does as well. There used to be a company called GoldChops, but the feedback I've seen on the Chat has been mixed (they probably try to skimp on gold thickness). Good luck.
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
[quote="Posaunus"]Has anyone else tried an AR Resonance mouthpiece with the cup made from machined [water] buffalo horn?
I obtained one {25.1 V+ 60} from a TromboneChat member last year and really enjoy playing it with a 0.500" or 0.508" bore trombone. The "mouth feel" is pleasing, the sound is nice - and I love the reaction from other trombonists, who apparently have never seen a black mouthpiece cup![/quote]
I agree, cow/buffalo horn feels amazing on the chops!
I obtained one {25.1 V+ 60} from a TromboneChat member last year and really enjoy playing it with a 0.500" or 0.508" bore trombone. The "mouth feel" is pleasing, the sound is nice - and I love the reaction from other trombonists, who apparently have never seen a black mouthpiece cup![/quote]
I agree, cow/buffalo horn feels amazing on the chops!
- BrassSection
- Posts: 424
- Joined: May 11, 2022
I had my Bach 12SC redone awhile back with gold rim and cup. Since it has been in use since the 1940s, it feels (and looks) 100% better now than before comfort wise. Sound wise really can’t say that I notice any difference, with the possible exception of higher notes being easier to hit. As a person who rarely practices on any horn but the trumpet, month or so ago on a quick “Can I?” moment during practice I went for a high C. Nailed it, so come the actual service I easily hit and sustained it. Since I never tried that before I can’t credit the gold, but it sure didn’t hurt! Usual upper playing is frequent F, regular F#, and occasional G or G#.
- ksanger
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Aug 13, 2023
In 1990 I was assembling fiber optic fibers into V grooves etched in Silicon. We used Teflon to hold things in place. Under the microscope we saw small Teflon fibers everywhere. Not good for alignment if they ended up in the V-Grooves. I wouldn't play a Teflon mouthpiece. All Teflons might not shed but I think that might contribute to making Teflon slippery.
In the 2000's we had an issue where Cu was migrating through Ni and then Au as the Ni and Au layers were thinner than spec. The Cu corrupted the electrical connection. That's when I learned that metal atoms move. I assume when you coat Au over Brass (Cu) that you must put down something else first to get the Gold to stick. And the layers have to be right in order to slow down the migration of Copper over time. I think it has something to do with the electrical potential between two dissimilar metals. I'm not a chemist. Hopefully people plating mouthpieces know more than I do.
I've just ordered my second Gold plated mouthpiece from the manufacturer and decided not to buy one that was sold as a plated version of the Silver equivalent. Was looking here to see what other's thought of Gold plated mouthpieces.
In the 2000's we had an issue where Cu was migrating through Ni and then Au as the Ni and Au layers were thinner than spec. The Cu corrupted the electrical connection. That's when I learned that metal atoms move. I assume when you coat Au over Brass (Cu) that you must put down something else first to get the Gold to stick. And the layers have to be right in order to slow down the migration of Copper over time. I think it has something to do with the electrical potential between two dissimilar metals. I'm not a chemist. Hopefully people plating mouthpieces know more than I do.
I've just ordered my second Gold plated mouthpiece from the manufacturer and decided not to buy one that was sold as a plated version of the Silver equivalent. Was looking here to see what other's thought of Gold plated mouthpieces.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
I believe gold plating is done over silver. Gold plating is superior to scuffed up or poor silver plating but inferior to silver playing that is done really well.
- hornbuilder
- Posts: 1384
- Joined: May 02, 2018
Yes. Brass items to be plated first receiver a "strike coat" of copper, which is "very" thin. Then, a strike coat of silver, followed by a heavy coat of silver. Silver items are done at this point. Gold items receive the same treatment, with a final coat of gold over the heavy silver coat. Note that not all gold is equal, though. Check that the player is using "soft gold", which is pure gold and is applied in a heavier coat. Some players use a "hard gold" which also has cobalt in the material to improve durability. Hard gold is much thinner than soft gold, though.
- BPBasso
- Posts: 96
- Joined: Mar 31, 2025
[quote="hornbuilder"]Yes. Brass items to be plated first receiver a "strike coat" of copper, which is "very" thin. Then, a strike coat of silver, followed by a heavy coat of silver. Silver items are done at this point. Gold items receive the same treatment, with a final coat of gold over the heavy silver coat. Note that not all gold is equal, though. Check that the player is using "soft gold", which is pure gold and is applied in a heavier coat. Some players use a "hard gold" which also has cobalt in the material to improve durability. Hard gold is much thinner than soft gold, though.[/quote]
I never realized mouthpieces took multiple layers, aside from needing silver below gold. What's thickness differences between a strike coat and a heavy coat?
I never realized mouthpieces took multiple layers, aside from needing silver below gold. What's thickness differences between a strike coat and a heavy coat?
- Chronos91
- Posts: 64
- Joined: Jul 10, 2022
My experience is with plating for aerospace, but I think the strike layers of copper we put down are on the order of 40 micro-inches when done for 5 minutes just based on what I remember the deposition rate to usually be. I think you could still get good adhesion with somewhat less, but that isn't something I ever experimented with. I've seen on the trumpet forum that Yamaha's silver on trumpets at least is on the order of 0.0003 in thick (300 micro-inches), so a heavy coat of silver would probably be like 10-20 times the thickness of the strike.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Strike plates are done at relatively high plating rate and are usually intended to be rough. They provide a lot of surface area to enhance the bond between the eventual plate and the substrate. This helps prevent "peelers".
Gold and brass will dissolve into each other in a solid state reaction that could take decades. I had a bare brass mouthpiece that my father had rhodium plated (similar situation). Fresh from the plater it had a nice silver color. 20 years later it was basically "bare brass" -- the rhodium had dissolved into the substrate.
Note that 300 micro-inches of silver is what we used to plate on silver contact areas for Western Electric. They intended these coatings to be good for 40 years.
Gold and brass will dissolve into each other in a solid state reaction that could take decades. I had a bare brass mouthpiece that my father had rhodium plated (similar situation). Fresh from the plater it had a nice silver color. 20 years later it was basically "bare brass" -- the rhodium had dissolved into the substrate.
Note that 300 micro-inches of silver is what we used to plate on silver contact areas for Western Electric. They intended these coatings to be good for 40 years.
- heinzgries
- Posts: 250
- Joined: Apr 24, 2018
[quote="Posaunus"]Has anyone else tried an AR Resonance mouthpiece with the cup made from machined [water] buffalo horn?
I obtained one {25.1 V+ 60} from a TromboneChat member last year and really enjoy playing it with a 0.500" or 0.508" bore trombone. The "mouth feel" is pleasing, the sound is nice - and I love the reaction from other trombonists, who apparently have never seen a black mouthpiece cup![/quote]
The AR buffalo horn top is a great choice
I obtained one {25.1 V+ 60} from a TromboneChat member last year and really enjoy playing it with a 0.500" or 0.508" bore trombone. The "mouth feel" is pleasing, the sound is nice - and I love the reaction from other trombonists, who apparently have never seen a black mouthpiece cup![/quote]
The AR buffalo horn top is a great choice