Where do you play high notes?

tbdana · 2023-07-21 8:04 p.m.

When you get into the upper register, the partials are really close together. This gives you lots of options as to where (what positions) to play high notes, but it also makes it more treacherous up there. So I'm curious where folks play those notes.

For me, while I'll play them in various positions depending on the surrounding notes, I'll default to the following:

High Bb: 1st

High B: 4th/2nd (50/50)

High C: 3rd (1st if it's in passing)

High Db: 2nd

High D: 1st

High Eb: #2nd

High E: b3rd (this is my most treacherous note)

High F: b2nd

High Gb: #2nd

High G: 4th

High Ab: 3rd

High A: 2nd

Double Bb: 1st, but pretty much any note in any position, from there on up.

What works best for you? I'm particularly interested in where people play the high E, since of all the high notes, that one always feels the least solid if I try to play it in 2nd.

WilliamLang · by **WilliamLang** » 2023-07-21 8:07 p.m.

Here's my list:

High Bb: 1st

High B: 2nd

High C: 1st, slightly flat

High Db: 2nd

High D: 1st

High Eb: #2nd

High E: 2nd, but slightly flat - like the 6th partial

High F: 1st

High Gb: #3rd, like Gb4

High G: #2nd, like G4

High Ab: 3rd

High A: 2nd

Double Bb: 1st

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2023-07-21 9:42 p.m.

I'd add #3 for high D. To be honest, I don't mess with anything over high F. That's really the last note that comes out clearly for me. I also haven't really worked on anything that far out as I can't say I've ever had need for it. E I generally put in 2, probably b2, but up there everything is reactive (play and adjust) .

How often /where do you run into need for that? Playing up there and really using those notes is really damned impressive.

ithinknot · 2023-07-21 10:38 p.m.

(If I say 2.5 I don't necessarily mean equidistant. It's just that generally I don't think of those notes belonging more to one position than another in b/# terms, and then I learn their specific place on a given horn)

Bb: 1st or 3rd almost equally

B: 2nd

C: 3rd

C#: 2nd

D: 2.5th seems convenient and natural, and I find it hard to love a horn where that 11th partial feels iffy (most Kings)... or 1st

Eb: 3rd, or 1.5th

E: 2nd, or 3.5th

F: 2.5th more often than 1st

F#: #3rd like F#4 (usually also ok in 1.5th, compared to the #2nd for G)

G: #2nd like G4 (4th on horns where that's better, but in most cases either both are usable or neither truly slots)

Ab: 3rd

A: 2nd

Double Bb: 3rd, moving the slide outwards at that point feels more physically open (not exactly true, but I like the idea and the reminder not to work too hard)

If a horn has a solid high E, and the 5th partial Bb in #5th feels completely neutral, it's probably good...

hyper is of course right in terms of need... I just play up there because I can. I can go higher, but at the moment Bb is about as high as I feel I can get in and out musically (that point is getting higher, but it takes time). It's one area where my technique doesn't suck, and the closeness of partials and lack of substantial arm movement has a special ease that feels like singing.

(Also, high ballad playing is the best noise you get out of a trombone... for me, it's basically all because of hearing Gordon Campbell on the radio and at the Birmingham ITF when I was a kid.)

Pezza · by **Pezza** » 2023-07-21 10:52 p.m.

Bb 1 or 3

B 2

C 1 or 3

Db 2

D 1 or 4

Eb 3

E 2

F1,4 or6!

Anything above is just blow & hope for the best, but I am mainly a bass bone & eupho player!

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2023-07-21 11:13 p.m.

I play high Eb in third and F# in sharp 3rd

Olofson · by **Olofson** » 2023-07-22 4:16 a.m.

In the practise studio.

Bb 1 / 3

B 2

C 1 /(3)

Db 3,5 /(2)

D 2,5

Eb 1,5

E 3,5 /(2)

F 2,5

Gb 1,5

G 3 /2

Ab 2 /3

A 1 /3 /2

Bb 1/1,5/2 or what ever. In performing I do what I can and hope for the best. Also much depnding on what horn I am playing.

imsevimse · 2023-07-22 6:35 a.m.

Bb1 (3)

B 2

C 1 (3)

Db 2

D 2,5 (1)

Eb 1,5

E 3,5 (2)

F 2,5 (1)

Gb 1,5 (is as high as I acctually can play)

G 2 (3) (squeak)

Ab 3 (squeak)

A 2 (squeak)

Bb 1 (is my absolute limit squeak)

/Tom

KWL · by **KWL** » 2023-07-22 6:58 a.m.

[quote="tbdana"]Where do you play high notes?[/quote]In my dreams.

Ken (62H, 73H, 1-1/2G)

SFA · by **SFA** » 2023-07-22 12:34 p.m.

[quote="KWL"]<QUOTE author="tbdana" post_id="215637" time="1689984261" user_id="16498"> Where do you play high notes?[/quote]In my dreams.

Ken (62H, 73H, 1-1/2G)
</QUOTE>

:lol:

henrysa · by **henrysa** » 2023-07-22 12:56 p.m.

Anybody else feel terribly inadequate? This must be a cult of Trombone Castrati. I'm gonna try helium....actually I'm jealous as heck. Back to my practice dungeon.

Trombonic · by **Trombonic** » 2023-07-22 1:22 p.m.

Backstage, to impress my trombone colleagues

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2023-07-22 1:48 p.m.

[quote="Trombonic"]Backstage, to impress my trombone colleagues[/quote]

I've known several like this. Then you put a D above the bass staff in front of them and they can't play it :tongue:

mbarbier · by **mbarbier** » 2023-07-22 4:27 p.m.

I find, at least on my horn, what the Ab/A slot really well in first and second position (15th partial). Does anyone else find that?

I like the way D works in #3 (especially for softer things) and Eb in #2.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2023-07-22 6:29 p.m.

[quote="henrysa"]Anybody else feel terribly inadequate? This must be a cult of Trombone Castrati. I'm gonna try helium....actually I'm jealous as heck. Back to my practice dungeon.[/quote]

I'm a big believer in being able to play the entire instrument, from the lowest pedal note on the horn to a double Bb.

One reason to reach for these notes: If you never play above high Bb, that's your top note and is the hardest note you play. If you can play a high F, your high Bb is in your middle register and you don't struggle to play it. If you can play a double Bb, then the high F is in your middle register.

But I do use many of those notes. Several charts I've played have gone up to a high Eb. Just this afternoon I was playing in a pit orchestra where the range of my part goes down to a pedal F# and goes up to a high D. If you're on the gig, you best be able to play those notes reliably and well, and the way to be solid on them is to have notes beyond them.

Also, in playing jazz I often like to play in the octave between F two ledger lines above the staff to a high F, because the partials are close together and if you practice in that register then it's easy to have a lot of facility in that range without a lot of slide movement. Plus it's just freakin' awesome to start a solo on the break by nailing whatever note the lead trumpet player just played. :)

mbarbier · by **mbarbier** » 2023-07-22 6:54 p.m.

[quote="henrysa"]Anybody else feel terribly inadequate? This must be a cult of Trombone Castrati. I'm gonna try helium....actually I'm jealous as heck. Back to my practice dungeon.[/quote]

I generally view the extremely high range as a little bit silly. However there's a few pieces in the contemporary music realm that I really like/wanted to play (particularly Spahlinger's gegen unendlich, which I think Will has done too) so on my end it's mostly just a (slightly arduous) necessity.

But agree with some of the other sentiments that being able to comfortably go above F has just made it a bit less worrying when I need to just play in the "normal" high range. If that makes sense?

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2023-07-22 6:57 p.m.

Beethoven 5 calls for a high F from a dead stop. Some solos also including David. I've got a reliable F and have used it legitimately (where the music actually calls for it). But I've never seen anything written higher than that, unless you count Christopher Bill arrangements.

I play in a quartet where 3 of us have at least an F. On my first lesson with John Swallow, he said "That high F and a quarter you can get a cup of coffee". In the end, it's nice to have, but you can't pull it out to show it off much, and few would care if you did. Nobody longs for the Tastee Bros to start playing trombones, amirite? Still, a real "dubba Bb" is pretty dang impressive.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2023-07-22 7:11 p.m.

High F# or G is really all you need in "legit" pro world. Probably commercial pro world too, unless you're doing gimmicks. I think Alessi is on the record for topping out at high F#, but he owns that note.

That high F in Beethoven is for a substantially different instrument than modern tenor, isn't it? And I think he had complained that trombonists couldn't play it, right?

WilliamLang · by **WilliamLang** » 2023-07-22 7:13 p.m.

I find it interesting as research to see what can be done - and I also like playing contemporary pieces like Spahlinger and Rihm's Jungen und Former, like Mattie said. It also sometimes gets composers excited to write for me as well, which is always fun, and gives me a chance to personalize a piece, and hopefully inspire the next generation.

Also playing super high normalizes the normal "high" range. I've done the Xenakis Concerto Troorkh twice over in Europe, and playing 56 high Fs and a few high Gbs feels a lot easier when it's an octave and half lower than maximum range.

But it also all really needs to come from a solid base - I don't and would never teach sacrificing one range for another - my whole method is about learning to connect from F6 to pedal F with minimal inefficiency.

ssking2b · by **ssking2b** » 2023-07-22 8:46 p.m.

Here watch this all the way to the end ad then talk to me about high notes. As a commercial player you genteel have em!

<YOUTUBE id="LMmJi6ssErc">https://youtu.be/LMmJi6ssErc</YOUTUBE>

mbarbier · by **mbarbier** » 2023-07-22 8:56 p.m.

[quote="ssking2b"]Here watch this all the way to the end ad then talk to me about high notes. As a commercial player you genteel have em!

<YOUTUBE id="LMmJi6ssErc">https://youtu.be/LMmJi6ssErc</YOUTUBE>[/quote]

Nice! That whole video is really spectacular! Thanks for sharing!

tbdana · 2023-07-22 10:48 p.m.

[quote="ssking2b"]Here watch this all the way to the end ad then talk to me about high notes. As a commercial player you genteel have em!

<YOUTUBE id="LMmJi6ssErc">https://youtu.be/LMmJi6ssErc</YOUTUBE>[/quote]

Dude has an impressive range, for sure. And yes, I think he's exactly right about his embouchure, and keeping that embouchure set right where it is is what allows for that range. I hear so many people talking about shifting in different ranges, and different amounts of pressure, and such, but I've always been taught just what this guy is saying, so naturally I agree with it. :)

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2023-07-23 3:26 a.m.

[quote="ssking2b"]Here watch this all the way to the end ad then talk to me about high notes. As a commercial player you genteel have em!

<YOUTUBE id="LMmJi6ssErc">https://youtu.be/LMmJi6ssErc</YOUTUBE>[/quote]

You did that well. Nice playing and great chops :good:

/Tom

Trombonic · by **Trombonic** » 2023-07-23 8:28 a.m.

[quote="ssking2b"]Here watch this all the way to the end ad then talk to me about high notes. As a commercial player you genteel have em!

<YOUTUBE id="LMmJi6ssErc">https://youtu.be/LMmJi6ssErc</YOUTUBE>[/quote]

Some sloppy high notes..so what?

Sounds as bad as a trombone sounds when it is played in a range that makes no sense at all.

In the beginning and at the end of a night (or day)..

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2023-07-23 9:06 a.m.

[quote="KWL"]<QUOTE author="tbdana" post_id="215637" time="1689984261" user_id="16498"> Where do you play high notes?[/quote]In my dreams.

Ken (62H, 73H, 1-1/2G)
</QUOTE>

I play them at home.

That isn't intended as humor, but rather bemused frustration.

In my daily routine I take any exercise up to the F above high C, sometimes beyond. At the beginning of practice, at the end.

And in rehearsal or concert, I'm going to struggle an octave below it. I haven't figured out why.

ssking2b · by **ssking2b** » 2023-07-23 10:22 a.m.

Some sloppy high notes..so what?

Sounds as bad as a trombone sounds when it is played in a range that makes no sense at all.

In the beginning and at the end of a night (or day)..

Sorry you're jealous. Get a life. These notes have been making me a really good living for 50 years.

ssking2b · by **ssking2b** » 2023-07-23 10:27 a.m.

As far as positions go, I like super F in flat flat 2nd. above that just depends on the day. most of the really high notes play in just about any position 1-4 you want them in. I guess it depends where the work the best each day. I test that briefly after I'm warmed up...and then go on to play. (Warming up for me takes maybe 5 minutes. For me it's more about moving air than chops buzz.)

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2023-07-23 11:34 a.m.

Once you get above F5 (6 lines above the bass staff) you are in "French Horn territory" where the partials are so close together you can play any note anywhere. That's how the original valveless French Horn worked. The instrument was as long as an F-attachment trombone with the F-attachment engaged and you played a small mouthpiece way up in the partials. Intonation was adjusted using the hand in the bell.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2023-07-23 11:36 a.m.

[quote="Trombonic"]<QUOTE author="ssking2b" post_id="215717" time="1690073186" user_id="3785">
Here watch this all the way to the end ad then talk to me about high notes. As a commercial player you genteel have em!

<YOUTUBE id="LMmJi6ssErc">https://youtu.be/LMmJi6ssErc</YOUTUBE>[/quote]

Some sloppy high notes..so what?

Sounds as bad as a trombone sounds when it is played in a range that makes no sense at all.

In the beginning and at the end of a night (or day)..
</QUOTE>

I'm waiting with great anticipation to see your video and hear your range.

Dude's high range is impressive, and he's doing it right. Let's see what you got! :)

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2023-07-23 11:47 a.m.

[quote="ssking2b"]As far as positions go, I like super F in flat flat 2nd. above that just depends on the day. most of the really high notes play in just about any position 1-4 you want them in. I guess it depends where the work the best each day. I test that briefly after I'm warmed up...and then go on to play. (Warming up for me takes maybe 5 minutes. For me it's more about moving air than chops buzz.)[/quote]

For me, at least, if I really have the note (as opposed to just squealing out some high sound) then it falls into a definite partial. Yep, those notes can be played in lots of positions up there. But for me, it's precisely because the partials are so close together that I need to find the one that feels most solid for that particular note. And like you, that high F feels pretty solid in a #3rd/b2nd. It locks in there, for me, better than in 1st, and I can put vibrato on it in a #3rd.

For me, that E a 1/2 step below that is super hard to play in 2nd for some reason, and I'll often hit the Eb or F# if I'm going for it out of the blue (though it's easier in 2nd if it's part of a scale or run). I feel most confident when I pick the position that locks it in the easiest. For instance, there's a ballad I play arranged by John LaBarbera that comes in on a high C and immediately moves to the E above that. I play the E in a #4/b3. I've missed it too many times trying to play that E in 2nd.

In fact, it was after playing that tune that I came home and penned this thread. I was wondering if others have the same issues and approach that I do.

ithinknot · by **ithinknot** » 2023-07-23 12:15 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]<QUOTE author="ssking2b" post_id="215748" time="1690122472" user_id="3785">
I like super F in flat flat 2nd. above that just depends on the day. most of the really high notes play in just about any position 1-4 you want them in. I guess it depends where the work the best each day.[/quote]
For me, at least, if I really have the note (as opposed to just squealing out some high sound) then it falls into a definite partial. Yep, those notes can be played in lots of positions up there. But for me, it's precisely because the partials are so close together that I need to find the one that feels most solid for that particular note.
</QUOTE>

Yeah, I don't understand the suggestion that it's a free-for-all above F. Above super Bb, sure, but on a lot of horns the F# slots are better than the F options, and conversely there are definite places where you can't lock a G (and hopefully some that you can), and so on. Vibrato is an indicator, though you have to be honest with yourself - there's a difference between real slide vib in a slot, and just happening to move the slide around while you scream a pitch through the middle of the horn.

It's tricky, but there are horns out there with a really good E in 2nd - the hit rate seems better with Bachs than Kings, but at this point it's down to the specific build, not just the design.

mbarbier · by **mbarbier** » 2023-07-23 12:48 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]<QUOTE author="ssking2b" post_id="215748" time="1690122472" user_id="3785">
As far as positions go, I like super F in flat flat 2nd. above that just depends on the day. most of the really high notes play in just about any position 1-4 you want them in. I guess it depends where the work the best each day. I test that briefly after I'm warmed up...and then go on to play. (Warming up for me takes maybe 5 minutes. For me it's more about moving air than chops buzz.)[/quote]

For me, at least, if I really have the note (as opposed to just squealing out some high sound) then it falls into a definite partial. Yep, those notes can be played in lots of positions up there. But for me, it's precisely because the partials are so close together that I need to find the one that feels most solid for that particular note. And like you, that high F feels pretty solid in a #3rd/b2nd. It locks in there, for me, better than in 1st, and I can put vibrato on it in a #3rd.

</QUOTE>

I totally agree - like it's acoustically possible to play those pitches just about anywhere because of how many partials there are, but I find there's spots where they reliably slot vs just kinda squeal at pitch.

ssking2b · by **ssking2b** » 2023-07-23 1:05 p.m.

Granted. Some of the ultra high notes, while they can be played in mini places tend to sound better in some rather than others. I go up on the top after my warm up and just solidify which places I like those notes the best and typically then play double C and third double B-flat in first AA second AA flat almost 3rd works for me and then of these notes have a sound that will get you any kudos in the orchestra. This is definitely a commercial thing. However, at the ATF workshop in 2002 Jay Friedman heard me playing a DD and I thought he was gonna pee his pants , he spent the next half an hour asking me how I did it

ssking2b · by **ssking2b** » 2023-07-23 1:08 p.m.

Sorry if my note nomenclature is odd I dictated that message to Siri. Let me also say about the really really high EN sharp second or sharp forth. I can pay it in either place, but it’s better for me in Chartres fourth however, I have shattered and shattered and shattered until I can put it in the extremely sharp second position because the Les of most musical lines I run into that get up there Seem to work better with a note in that position, if you can play it. I can, but I shut it a little bit every day. Also, the horn that I did that video on what is a 500 more Horan the mouthpiece is a custom altered Bach 11 C with us skeletonized exterior by Scott Lasky and a throat open by me to 15/64 or 1/64 of an inch less than a Bach 6 1/2 AL. Those notes are never going to win you any friends in the orchestra, but then again trombone players don’t play that I in orchestra.

ssking2b · by **ssking2b** » 2023-07-23 1:09 p.m.

OK I’m an idiot. No more dictating to Siri. She seems to completely mess up everything I say if anything what I said in the previous to post doesn’t make sense. It’s Siri’s fault. Just let me know and I’ll clarify.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2023-07-23 3:48 p.m.

I just want to know what EN Sharp is. And Chartres 4th (is that in France?) :tongue:

Btw, Jay would have a lot more trouble playing the DD (D6) since he uses a lot bigger equipment that gives you more problems finding notes above F5.

WilliamLang · by **WilliamLang** » 2023-07-23 3:51 p.m.

you can play much higher that DD and clearly on large bore orchestral equipment. to me it's more a matter of adaptation over time than equipment size. It's not that notes above F5 are particularly hard, it's more that we as a community tell ourselves to stop there more or less, and don't develop a usable sound as a result.

ithinknot · by **ithinknot** » 2023-07-23 4:38 p.m.

[quote="WilliamLang"]you can play much higher that DD and clearly on large bore orchestral equipment. to me it's more a matter of adaptation over time than equipment size. It's not that notes above F5 are particularly hard, it's more that we as a community tell ourselves to stop there more or less, and don't develop a usable sound as a result.[/quote]

Actually, don't you find the super extreme stuff easier on large bores? (I've never squeaked higher than E6, and it's not something I care about, but it seems easier to get to that point with less resistance from the horn.)

With small horns, you retain the possibility of "classic"/conventional slotting further up the partial series. But in something like the Spahlinger mentioned above, where you've left behind any sort of "does this sound like Buddy Morrow?" paradigm and it's just a question of producing stable extreme pitches at particular dynamics on your wind instrument, the fact that the larger horn gets less involved in the process would seem to be an advantage.

WilliamLang · by **WilliamLang** » 2023-07-23 4:41 p.m.

I haven't noticed much a difference between large and small bore to be honest. The slots get much closer as you go higher of course, but I find that 15th-16th partials can slot quite well and sound with a "classical" clarity, though above there it starts to happen more with steadiness of embouchure and good pitch visualization/muscle memory tied to slide position.

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2023-07-23 5:52 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]Once you get above F5 (6 lines above the bass staff) you are in "French Horn territory" where the partials are so close together you can play any note anywhere.[/quote]

You can, but there are also still defined slots in certain positions that work best way up there. Just have to find which ones work for you.

Here's my list:

Bb4: 1st, but I find myself playing it in 3rd as well when in fast passages with high Ab and C. Easier to just keep

it in 3rd.

B4: 2nd

C5: 3rd or slightly flat 1st. Which one I do more depends on the horn. On my 3Bs I use 1st more, but my bass likes 3rd a lot more so I mostly use that.

C#5: 2nd

D5: 1st or #3rd. My 3Bs like both positions equally so I use both. My large bore tenor has a solid one in 1st so I usually use 1st. My bass only slots there in #3rd, so I use that.

Eb5: #2nd, but my 3B has a good one in 3rd too so I sometimes play it that way.

E5: 2nd

F5: 1st

F#5: #3rd

G5: #2nd

Anything above this is the same as the octave below. I don't play above G5 very often though, if I did I might find a different slot I like better for those notes.

I know lots of lead trumpet players like to play their double A (concert G6, equivalent to our G5) with the 1st valve, which would correspond to 3rd position. I'll have to try that on trombone.

Sesquitone · by **Sesquitone** » 2023-07-23 6:36 p.m.

Since this is a discussion in the category of "Teaching & Learning", I would strongly recommend using Scientific Pitch Notation: pitch-class name with octave number. [I would also strongly recommend not using Helmholtz notation.] See below. Regarding notation for slide positions, rather than listing "altered" reference positions (with sharps and flats), which are not very precise, I find it helpful to list the nearest reference position with the harmonic number in parenthesis. For example, all available equitempered tones in the octave up from Bb4 can be listed, without ambiguity, as follows:

Bb4: 1(8), 3(9), 5(10), 7(11).

B4: 2(9), 4(10), 6(11), 7(12).

C5: 1(9), 3(10), 5(11), 6(12).

C#5: 2(10), 4(11), 5(12), 6(13).

D5: 1(10), 3(11), 4(12), 5(13), 7(14).

Eb5: 2(11), 3(12), 4(13), 6(14), 7(15).

E5: 2(12), 3(13), 5(14), 6(15), 7(16).

F5: 1(12), 2(13), 4(14), 5(15), 6(16), 7(17).

F#5: 1(13), 3(14), 4(15), 5(16), 6(17), 7(18).

G5: 2(14), 3(15), 4(16), 5(17), 6(18), 7(19).

Ab5: 2(15), 3(16), 4(17), 5(18), 6(19), 7(20).

A5: 1(15), 2(16), 3(17), 4(18), 5(19), 6(20), 7(21).

Bb5: 1(16), 2(17), 3(18), 4(19), 5(20), 6(21), 7(22).

The accompanying ETSP Chart shows precise positions for all available equirempered tones on all harmonics, up to C6.

Regarding tbdana's dodgy twelfth harmonic, play the exercise shown in staff notation, using lip-slurs (with the positions and harmonics indicated) and good diaphragm support—starting with an ascending augmented triad followed by an ascending whole-tone scale; then back down again. Followed by attacks on the twelfth harmonic, as shown. Repeat until this all feels secure.

Now plane everything up by one semitone—and continue this process up to F5. Refer to the red lines on the accompanying ETSP Chart.

If any tones seem unreliable, check the mechanics of the instrument: a poorly seated water-key cork; a tiny pin-hole leak (e.g. in a solder joint); an inadvertent solder blob somewhere along the sound-path; &c. Any small disturbance like this could distort a pressure node of a specific note (especially in the very high register)—without affecting other (lower) notes.

Good luck!

.

ssking2b · by **ssking2b** » 2023-07-23 6:47 p.m.

I think bigger horns sound different on the top than the commercial horn I did that recording on. quite frankly, because of my air support I can play notes on my Bass Trombone mouthpiece with my 572 bore horn that reach the same stratospheric heights.

BTW, when I dictated to Siri, double D came out DD, etc.

EN Sharp is. And Chartres 4th were supposed to be High E in sharp 2nd and sharp 4th. Sorry for the confusion.

ssking2b · by **ssking2b** » 2023-07-23 6:54 p.m.

I think in our discussion, commercial players and orchestra classical players are referring to the same notes with different names. I’ll see the charts above, but in my world we don’t use those references. We might say wow. Did you hear the double D flat the Urbie Green played on search and search? That would be D-flat6 C#6, according to your charts. Let’s the Apex of the new notes I played on the video on a really good day. I can probably push that up again about a perfect fourth are use these notes in soloing quite frequently. It’s good stuff for a commercial player to have, but I don’t believe it’s applicable to a classical player.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2023-07-23 7:15 p.m.

Hm. I don't consider myself a legit player, a jazz player, or a commercial player. I just consider myself a trombone player. However, I am old, and I use the terminology I grew up with. Ain't no way I'm using Sesquitone's scientific pitch notation, or common core math for that matter, either. LOL! :D

ithinknot · 2023-07-23 7:22 p.m.

[quote="Sesquitone"]Regarding notation for slide positions, rather than listing "altered" reference positions (with sharps and flats), which are not very precise, I find it helpful to list the nearest reference position with the harmonic number in parenthesis.[/quote]

You'll have to forgive me for some "round 3 of covid"-induced grumpiness this week, but how this is more "precise" or helpful is rather beyond me.

Describing Eb5 as 2(11) implies that one is supposed to think, "ah, 'tis second position but, notwithstanding the intonation tendencies of my particular instrument, I recall that the eleventh partial is 49 cents flat relative to 12-ET so I shall reposition the slide accordingly"

... or you could just call it 1.5 as I do, which is where it actually is, or #2nd if that fits your thinking.

Despite the charts, the whole point of this thread arises from the fact that - in the real world on real instruments - not all options work equally well. (If you can model why E5 in 2nd and G5 in #2nd tend to be problematic notes on a wide range of otherwise successful trombone designs, I'd be very interested!)

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2023-07-23 9:49 p.m.

Trombone partials numbers are pretty clear. The octaves go 0 1 2 4 8 16 etc just like on any horn. Perhaps piano hegemony should do the same rather than a linear counting of their octaves.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2023-07-23 10:00 p.m.

No, I want to see that chart a few more times. Let him post it!

mbarbier · by **mbarbier** » 2023-07-24 12:35 a.m.

[quote="ithinknot"]<QUOTE author="WilliamLang" post_id="215790" time="1690141887" user_id="8089">
you can play much higher that DD and clearly on large bore orchestral equipment. to me it's more a matter of adaptation over time than equipment size. It's not that notes above F5 are particularly hard, it's more that we as a community tell ourselves to stop there more or less, and don't develop a usable sound as a result.[/quote]

Actually, don't you find the super extreme stuff easier on large bores? (I've never squeaked higher than E6, and it's not something I care about, but it seems easier to get to that point with less resistance from the horn.)

With small horns, you retain the possibility of "classic"/conventional slotting further up the partial series. But in something like the Spahlinger mentioned above, where you've left behind any sort of "does this sound like Buddy Morrow?" paradigm and it's just a question of producing stable extreme pitches at particular dynamics on your wind instrument, the fact that the larger horn gets less involved in the process would seem to be an advantage.
</QUOTE>

I find it a little easier on a larger tenor (though smaller than normal) than small tenor or on alto. I think it has a lot to do with that being my main horn and just being the most comfortable and familiar spot. I can do it on my smaller and larger horns, but it just doesn't feel as comfortable. Similar with other extended technique stuff I do- just feels like the right amount of room for me. I'd assume it's kinda like shoes. Right one works for the right person. Will plays unbelievably high on pretty large stuff.

I find that chart (and logic) kinda confusing. And I stan the hell outta Helmholtz so I'm probably biased. Up there I basically just think entirely in partials and mostly trying to play things on their lowest partials unless it's prime. Find that sometimes feels a little weird/too specifically coloured to me.

Trombonic · by **Trombonic** » 2023-07-24 4:36 a.m.

[quote="ssking2b"]<QUOTE>

Some sloppy high notes..so what?

Sounds as bad as a trombone sounds when it is played in a range that makes no sense at all.

In the beginning and at the end of a night (or day)..[/quote]

Sorry you're jealous. Get a life. These notes have been making me a really good living for 50 years.
</QUOTE>

Sorry, I want to apologize my harsh comment. I know that this is quite high, and somehow I don´t like that notes up there. Mine do not sound better!! I wanted not to critizise your high notes but this high notes on trombone or tuba in general. I love them when a lead trumpet player comes with those notes. I believe the trumpet´s high notes sound better for exciting the audience...Sorry again, impressive range!

Trombonic · by **Trombonic** » 2023-07-24 5:07 a.m.

[quote="tbdana"]<QUOTE author="Trombonic" post_id="215739" time="1690115316" user_id="16377">

Some sloppy high notes..so what?

Sounds as bad as a trombone sounds when it is played in a range that makes no sense at all.

In the beginning and at the end of a night (or day)..[/quote]

I'm waiting with great anticipation to see your video and hear your range.

Dude's high range is impressive, and he's doing it right. Let's see what you got! :)
</QUOTE>

Okay, here it is. Sorry for the bad quality, just one quick shot because of my neighbors :-)

It is from e to e.

<YOUTUBE id="axLVKsILaTM">https://youtube.com/shorts/axLVKsILaTM?feature=share</YOUTUBE>

<YOUTUBE id="afR0ZAxt7xI">https://youtube.com/shorts/afR0ZAxt7xI?feature=share</YOUTUBE>

I hope one of the links works!

Regards

ithinknot · by **ithinknot** » 2023-07-24 5:47 a.m.

Of course, the inevitable pissing contest. Shame that our pissees are fluffing most of the lower notes en route to ultima Thule; extending the controlled "musical range" is interesting... beyond that, not so much.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2023-07-24 7:01 a.m.

[quote="Trombonic"]<QUOTE author="tbdana" post_id="215757" time="1690126606" user_id="16498">

I'm waiting with great anticipation to see your video and hear your range.

Dude's high range is impressive, and he's doing it right. Let's see what you got! :)[/quote]

Okay, here it is. Sorry for the bad quality, just one quick shot because of my neighbors :-)

It is from e to e.

<YOUTUBE id="afR0ZAxt7xI">https://youtube.com/shorts/afR0ZAxt7xI?feature=share</YOUTUBE>

I hope one of the links works!

Regards
</QUOTE>

Your poor neighbors. The dogs must be going crazy.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2023-07-24 9:58 a.m.

[quote="Trombonic"]<QUOTE author="tbdana" post_id="215757" time="1690126606" user_id="16498">

I'm waiting with great anticipation to see your video and hear your range.

Dude's high range is impressive, and he's doing it right. Let's see what you got! :)[/quote]

Okay, here it is. Sorry for the bad quality, just one quick shot because of my neighbors :-)

It is from e to e.

<YOUTUBE id="axLVKsILaTM">https://youtube.com/shorts/axLVKsILaTM?feature=share</YOUTUBE>

<YOUTUBE id="afR0ZAxt7xI">https://youtube.com/shorts/afR0ZAxt7xI?feature=share</YOUTUBE>

I hope one of the links works!

Regards
</QUOTE>

That is certainly higher than I can play, and I thought I had a decent range. Props. :)

MrHCinDE · by **MrHCinDE** » 2023-07-24 12:12 p.m.

[quote="ithinknot"]Of course, the inevitable pissing contest.[/quote]

Better leave that to the trumpet players, they win every time.

mbarbier · by **mbarbier** » 2023-07-24 12:30 p.m.

[quote="MrHCinDE"]<QUOTE author="ithinknot" post_id="215867" time="1690192026" user_id="9763">
Of course, the inevitable pissing contest.[/quote]

Better leave that to the trumpet players, they win every time.
</QUOTE>

God seriously. I remember hearing this trumpet player I went to school with warmup and he'd literally play arpeggios going off both ends of the piano. There's no competing with that! Made it worse that he's the nicest person.

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2023-07-24 4:50 p.m.

Skip Layton with Kenton trading with Buddy Childers. Who wins?

<YOUTUBE id="fQTAc3fCP-M">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQTAc3fCP-M</YOUTUBE>

Previously posted on TTF.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2023-07-24 5:07 p.m.

[quote="baileyman"]Skip Layton with Kenton trading with Buddy Childers. Who wins?

<YOUTUBE id="fQTAc3fCP-M">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQTAc3fCP-M</YOUTUBE>

Previously posted on TTF.[/quote]

OMG :horror: I had never heard that. Thank's so much. That record is now on my wanted list. :good:

/Tom

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2023-07-25 6:52 a.m.

Found this:

"Skip Layton, who replaced Roland, was with the Kenton organization for a short peri- od of time in 1946 and 1947. He is one of those intriguing figures in jazz that flashes across the sky, seemingly appearing from nowhere, making a stunning impression, and then disappears, not to be heard from again. Layton had played with Johnny Richards and Bobby Sherwood, but was hardly well known in the jazz community. The special skill that Layton possessed was the ability to play extremely high, but not just squeak- ing, as some trombonists do in the extreme upper register; Layton could play very high at a very loud volume. Kenton, and his chief arranger during this period, Pete Rugolo, discovered Layton’s ability and didn’t hesitate to add it to the other exciting musical ingredients that the band already employed. Layton’s first recording session with the band was 2 January 1947. By the session of 13 February, Layton had been “discovered,” and Rugolo wrote a thrilling “screech” section for the chart “Machito” with Layton and lead trumpeter Buddy Childers squealing away together in the high range. A similar effect was used at the 27 February session on part 2 of “Rhythm Incorporated.” Layton is on his own with high note work on “The Spider and the Fly” (31 March).5 Trumpeter Ken Hanna wrote a chart to feature Layton, in a more normal register, on a standard tune, “How Am I To Know?” Layton acquits himself quite nicely, with two solo sections that stand up well next to Winding’s work from the same period. But by September, Layton was no longer with the band. Michael Sparke suggests that this “underrated trombonist, with outstanding tone and technique and improvisational skills ... never quite made it in the competitive world of jazz.” 6"

at

https://content.alfred.com/catpages/01-ADV19106.pdf

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2023-07-25 7:06 a.m.

<YOUTUBE id="drDbj_jvcOo">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/drDbj_jvcOo</YOUTUBE>

ssking2b · by **ssking2b** » 2023-07-25 10:07 a.m.

[quote="Trombonic"]<QUOTE author="ssking2b" post_id="215747" time="1690122167" user_id="3785">

Sorry you're jealous. Get a life. These notes have been making me a really good living for 50 years.[/quote]

Sorry, I want to apologize my harsh comment. I know that this is quite high, and somehow I don´t like that notes up there. Mine do not sound better!! I wanted not to critizise your high notes but this high notes on trombone or tuba in general. I love them when a lead trumpet player comes with those notes. I believe the trumpet´s high notes sound better for exciting the audience...Sorry again, impressive range!
</QUOTE>

Apology accepted. I was feeling testy that day. I actually don't try to play pretty melodies that high, but rather use the notes just like the lead trumpet player does for effect. I can play the double Bb etc loud enough to cut thru an entire big band...and it's SO much fun to give the trumpet players a complex!

Olofson · by **Olofson** » 2023-07-25 11:44 a.m.

<YOUTUBE id="kp37Fy2DKAM">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kp37Fy2DKAM</YOUTUBE>

If you like it or not, many people do like it very much.

Many of us do practise higher at home than we do in performance, but in public we might not use the highest octave. If I could sound like the above clip i might.

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2023-07-25 1:42 p.m.

Saw Dave and Rick Lillard in the 90s touring as “The High Flyers”. Great performance and blew my friends that I dragged with me out of the water. It can be a gimmick, but it doesn’t have to be. Make music first and the audience won’t notice what octave you are in unless they are looking for it.

Still have a tape (or two?) that I bought at that show somewhere, I should digitize it to have it handy. I may have worn it out, however…

Cheers,

Andy

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2023-07-25 3:51 p.m.

Since we're on the subject...

Dave Steinmeyer is my favorite high note acrobat on the trombone. The highest note I know of that he recorded was Eb6 at the end of "Can You Read My Mind", the same note that Bill Watrous recorded a few times. Of course Bill was also a high note acrobat, but I feel like he is known more for his blazing fast solos in and out of the extreme high register rather than raw high note prowess like Dave. But, for all of Dave's high chops, he always said that Rick Lillard could play higher.

As mentioned, Skip Layton was unique because he could shout those extreme notes over a cooking big band. Conrad Herwig is a modern example of this type of player...at ETW 2013 I heard Conrad play the loudest and punchiest Ab5s I've ever heard while improvising over the Army Blues. It was ridiculous!

Britt Woodman is another forgotten name (played with Ellington) who could play up there.

All that said, if you want to hear rock-solid consistency above F5, listen to some UHOP players. Notes up there are a standard part of their arrangements and they scream them out with a good shouty sound and seemingly no effort. Sadly, my favorite UHOP video where they paste dozens of G5s and up to D6 isn't available anymore. They usually play really big equipment too, like at least .547" and often straight basses.

In my opinion, a lot of modern jazz players have a habit of playing notes above the range they can play with a good/full sound. There is a break somewhere (usually F5) where everything above sounds like they're singing into the horn. To me, you can't really play a note until you can play it with the same sound, dynamics, and musicality as the notes below. It's not enough to just technically be able to hit the pitch. Contrast that with a player like Dave Steinmeyer, where his effortless Bb5s are just as sonorous and impactful as the octave below.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2023-07-25 4:30 p.m.

[quote="Finetales"]Since we're on the subject...

Dave Steinmeyer is my favorite high note acrobat on the trombone. The highest note I know of that he recorded was Eb6 at the end of "Can You Read My Mind", the same note that Bill Watrous recorded a few times. Of course Bill was also a high note acrobat, but I feel like he is known more for his blazing fast solos in and out of the extreme high register rather than raw high note prowess like Dave. But, for all of Dave's high chops, he always said that Rick Lillard could play higher.

As mentioned, Skip Layton was unique because he could shout those extreme notes over a cooking big band. Conrad Herwig is a modern example of this type of player...at ETW 2013 I heard Conrad play the loudest and punchiest Ab5s I've ever heard while improvising over the Army Blues. It was ridiculous!

Britt Woodman is another forgotten name (played with Ellington) who could play up there.

All that said, if you want to hear rock-solid consistency above F5, listen to some UHOP players. Notes up there are a standard part of their arrangements and they scream them out with a good shouty sound and seemingly no effort. Sadly, my favorite UHOP video where they paste dozens of G5s and up to D6 isn't available anymore. They usually play really big equipment too, like at least .547" and often straight basses.

In my opinion, a lot of modern jazz players have a habit of playing notes above the range they can play with a good/full sound. There is a break somewhere (usually F5) where everything above sounds like they're singing into the horn. To me, you can't really play a note until you can play it with the same sound, dynamics, and musicality as the notes below. It's not enough to just technically be able to hit the pitch. Contrast that with a player like Dave Steinmeyer, where his effortless Bb5s are just as sonorous and impactful as the octave below.[/quote]
Interesting info, and I agree Dave is also my favourite up there. I've never been god at the real high notes. My register stops at F#. Thats the highest pich I can play with a slide vibrato and where the slide acctually matters for the vibrato. Anything above is just squeaks for me and I don't own those notes. I've always been impressed by people who can play high. Congrats to the chops, but as others have said "To try to impress with high notes on a trombone is like wanting to be the tallest dwarf." or something similar :biggrin:

/Tom

ithinknot · by **ithinknot** » 2023-07-25 5:03 p.m.

[quote="Finetales"]It's not enough to just technically be able to hit the pitch. Contrast that with a player like Dave Steinmeyer, where his effortless Bb5s are just as sonorous and impactful as the octave below.[/quote]

Yup, that's why I draw the line between controlled "musical" range, and the potentially wide span of falsetto that follows. I can play all of DS's notes - it's not much of an achievement - but I can't play them like that.

The Skip Layton thing is crazy, and obviously truly loud loud. But a question for those who've heard Dave Steinmeyer really up close - how loud? I'm seriously asking, and I have nothing but love for his playing. Lead playing off-mic is a different story, but the high ballad work is always pretty close to the mic, and it seems to me that he perfectly cultivated a brightness and intensity that he could match through all registers without actually having to work too hard. But I'd love to hear him live, and I never have.

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2023-07-25 5:40 p.m.

[quote="ithinknot"]The Skip Layton thing is crazy, and obviously truly loud loud. But a question for those who've heard Dave Steinmeyer really up close - how loud? I'm seriously asking, and I have nothing but love for his playing. Lead playing off-mic is a different story, but the high ballad work is always pretty close to the mic, and it seems to me that he perfectly cultivated a brightness and intensity that he could match through all registers without actually having to work too hard. But I'd love to hear him live, and I never have.[/quote]

Well, he played lead in the Note so he can play plenty loud off-mic. But as for his stratospheric ballads, they are of course very miced but he still pumps out real sound. He is certainly not confined to bell-eating-the-mic volumes. When I played with him he was not at all a reserved/covered player. I'm not sure he could bury a band that high like Skip could, but I wouldn't be surprised if he could either.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2023-07-25 6:46 p.m.

[quote="Finetales"]Since we're on the subject...

Dave Steinmeyer is my favorite high note acrobat on the trombone. The highest note I know of that he recorded was Eb6 at the end of "Can You Read My Mind", the same note that Bill Watrous recorded a few times. Of course Bill was also a high note acrobat, but I feel like he is known more for his blazing fast solos in and out of the extreme high register rather than raw high note prowess like Dave.[/quote]

Yeah, that's a good observation. And indeed it was that Watrous cadenza on Fourth Floor Walkup that begins on that Eb6 that changed my life. When I first heard that cadenza (before I knew him), no one had ever done anything like that before, and I knew that my only two options were to throw my horn in the ocean or re-examine everything I thought I knew about the limits of trombone playing.

You make a great point about Bill's facility in the high range. To me, having that facility defines whether or not you can really play those notes. Hitting the notes is a gimmick. Having that facility means owning the register.

I heard that register a lot. I worked and played and just hung out and smoked mountains of weed with Watrous for 15-20 years before his stroke, back when he was at his best. So I got to hear him all the time and really pick his playing apart. One of the conclusions I came to was that I did not like that Billy played so much in that register. I don't think the character of the horn in that range is very trombone-like. I understand why he did it. Facility is so much easier in that register because the partials are so close together and you barely have to move the slide to rip off lightning fast licks. And, of course, it's impressive. But I don't like a steady diet of it. I like reaching for that register for effect, but I don't like living up there. Leave that to trumpets and alto sax players. Even if you truly have that range the way Watrous did (and no one has it the way Billy did), it's still gimmicky and somehow "off" sounding.

So I still come down that you have to be able to play those notes with clarity and facility, but that you usually should not unless it's written in the music or you use it only rarely for effect.

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2023-07-25 7:00 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]So I still come down that you have to be able to play those notes with clarity and facility, but that you usually should not unless it's written in the music or you use it only rarely for effect.[/quote]

I tend to like the way Dave used it (usually only on solo ballads, where those very high notes really do have a lovely effect - I'm thinking specifically of And We Will Love Again) the best. Or my previous example of Conrad Herwig...he's not known as a high note player, he rattles off great lines in the "normal" trombone register, and then out of nowhere pastes a few Ab5s in a row. Amazing moment that pushed everyone's hair back live.

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2023-07-25 10:58 p.m.

[quote="ithinknot"]Yup, that's why I draw the line between controlled "musical" range, and the potentially wide span of falsetto that follows. I can play all of DS's notes - it's not much of an achievement - but I can't play them like that.

The Skip Layton thing is crazy, and obviously truly loud loud. But a question for those who've heard Dave Steinmeyer really up close - how loud? I'm seriously asking, and I have nothing but love for his playing. Lead playing off-mic is a different story, but the high ballad work is always pretty close to the mic, and it seems to me that he perfectly cultivated a brightness and intensity that he could match through all registers without actually having to work too hard. But I'd love to hear him live, and I never have.[/quote]
The concert with Dave and Rick I mentioned above was in a smallish concert hall and was one of the loudest concerts I was at in the decade of the 90s. For reference: Maynard, that one, and Doc… all amazingly loud. Think I lost some hearing with all of them. Funny that the smaller venue acoustic performances were louder than the Lolapalooza(s) that I also went to…

Cheers,

Andy

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2023-07-26 11:09 a.m.

I'm late to the contest and I'm also not close to what earlier combatants did, but you can hear that the f# is still a note and that the a is not. Anyhow some champs with super choops like Dave Steinmeier manage to make much higher notes speak clear and with power. It's a puzzle to me I have never solved, but give me a few years and a few advice and then maybe. Anyone has a suggestion how I can go higher? How can I get those real high notes speak? What is different in mouth (tounge, airstream) when you play them if you compare it to the f#? Maybe I'm just using too much force :frown: I think I will add some high squeak notes to the daily routine. I guess I need to be there several times every day for a while until it stays.

This is my attempt.

<YOUTUBE id="R4CT-NQ2YHc">https://youtube.com/shorts/R4CT-NQ2YHc?feature=share</YOUTUBE>

[Edit:

[quote="Sesquitone"]Since this is a discussion in the category of "Teaching & Learning", I would strongly recommend using Scientific Pitch Notation: pitch-class name with octave number. [I would also strongly recommend not using Helmholtz notation.] See below. Regarding notation for slide positions, rather than listing "altered" reference positions (with sharps and flats), which are not very precise, I find it helpful to list the nearest reference position with the harmonic number in parenthesis. For example, all available equitempered tones in the octave up from Bb4 can be listed, without ambiguity, as follows:

Bb4: 1(8), 3(9), 5(10), 7(11).

B4: 2(9), 4(10), 6(11), 7(12).

C5: 1(9), 3(10), 5(11), 6(12).

C#5: 2(10), 4(11), 5(12), 6(13).

D5: 1(10), 3(11), 4(12), 5(13), 7(14).

Eb5: 2(11), 3(12), 4(13), 6(14), 7(15).

E5: 2(12), 3(13), 5(14), 6(15), 7(16).

F5: 1(12), 2(13), 4(14), 5(15), 6(16), 7(17).

F#5: 1(13), 3(14), 4(15), 5(16), 6(17), 7(18).

G5: 2(14), 3(15), 4(16), 5(17), 6(18), 7(19).

Ab5: 2(15), 3(16), 4(17), 5(18), 6(19), 7(20).

A5: 1(15), 2(16), 3(17), 4(18), 5(19), 6(20), 7(21).

Bb5: 1(16), 2(17), 3(18), 4(19), 5(20), 6(21), 7(22).

.....

Good luck![/quote]

Thank's, thats really helpful. I tried the A5 in first instead of second, maybe it is better, anyway I got it better there this time. It did lock in to pitch and was more steady. It could be the horn too (King 3B). I also backed off a bit with air on that note. Give me a couple of weeks and I'm in the game, at least with that note. That double high C#6 was insane. It's just a major third up from the A5 but it feels like climbing a mountain from there. I'm sure it's just to find the technique to do it like anything else on the horn, but it's easy to think of it as pain and muscle-work. I know it isn't but when I'm on that A5 and imagine yet another major third or even a fifth? OMG it' feels crazy anyone can play higher notes. That's the feeling I'm struggling with at the moment. :mrgreen:

Here is my second attempt

<YOUTUBE id="QPntvMwclo0">https://youtube.com/shorts/QPntvMwclo0?feature=share</YOUTUBE>

]

/Tom

Sesquitone · 2023-08-07 11:45 a.m.

Harking back to the original theme, i.e. where (on the slide) to play tones in the very high register, I'd like to address a number of points that have arisen earlier, plus some others.

First, as with every other instrument used in Western Music, for the trombone we need to consider 12-note equitemperament as a basis. Slight adjustments (e.g. for just intonation, &c.) are automatically made by experienced players of all instrument (except keyboards), as necessary. [See: Vera, Colby and Bilal, "The Trombone Section on Tuning a Chord" on YouTube.]

Second, it is important to use standardised terminology and notation for identifying pitches (in their respective octaves). Scientific Pitch Notation (International Pitch Notation or, more commonly, Standard Pitch Notation, SPN) is the globally accepted standard, almost universally required in professional publications in fields of music theory, history, analysis, and practice, and in acoustics and related areas. [See: Flutopedia.com.octave_notation for a handy comparative summary.] Notably, the ITA Journal does not require SPN—and allows the (non-intuitive) Helmholtz notation to be used.

Third, it should be clear that, for discussing slide positions, there needs to be a widely accepted and easily comprehended standard notation for labelling those positions of (equitempered) tones in the upper register that deviate significantly from the reference positions defined by the seven fundamentals and their octaves. Below, I discuss two possibilities: (i) a simple decimal notation using (as needed) one decimal place, and (ii) and adjusted-reference-position notation using appropriate symbols signifying shortening or lengthening of the slide away from the nearest reference position. Each of these systems requires added notation for only three distinct types of deviation from the integer-valued reference positions. I'll give a few examples of how such notation might be used.

Also, I'll attach some impedance/frequency diagrams for tenor and bass trombones, showing resonance peaks that (except for the lowest) closely correlate with the full harmonic series over a wide range—but tend to "wash out" at very high frequencies. And we'll see that, indeed, there are significant differences between different bore sizes.

I start by referring to the handy slide-position calculator designed by Jeffrey Clymer [clymer.altervista.org (Trombone Slide Positions)]. For any desired tone, the calculator lists, for each available harmonic, the slide position number in decimalised form (with up to two decimal places) and the physical extension in centimetres. [Temperature (inside the instrument) determines the speed of sound and thus the sound-path length for a given frequency (and each available harmonic).] Using the default temperature, reference positions for fundamentals and their octaves are represented, as usual, by integers from 1 to 7.

One decimal place is enough to uniquely identify non-integer positions. Equitempered tones on the 3rd, 6th, 12th, 17th, 18th, and 19th harmonics deviate from the nearest reference position by much less than 0.1 of a full position increment, so positions for these tones are also represented by integers. According to the calculator, equitempered tones on the 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th harmonics would require shortening by about 0.1 of a full position increment. But, in practice, these deviations are usually small enough to also be ignored. However, for the 7th and 14th harmonics, equitempered tones occur at about 0.3 of a position increment shorter than the nearest reference position, so these are notated as N.7, where N is the integer label of the shorter adjacent reference position. Equitempered tones on the 11th harmonic have the form N.5. And those on the 13th harmonic are appropriately labelled as N.4. Above the 20th harmonic, we are usually in the "megaphone" regime—where position numbers become meaningless [see: UNSW, below].

As an intuitive (albeit less precise) alternative, we could use an "adjusted-nearest-reference-position" notation. For example, instead of D4 (7th harmonic) as being in position 6.7, we could say that this is found in sharp-seventh position, notated as #7. Just "how sharp" (i.e. 0.3 of a full increment) will be known by the player. Similarly, 13th harmonic F5 is in position 2.4 or flat-second, b2. These notations are already commonly used. Equitempered tones on the 11th harmonic fall almost exactly half-way between adjacent reference positions‚ but 1 cent closer to the longer position. I will use an asterisk (star) to designate the deviation, so that, for example, 11th harmonic D5 is in position 2.5 or star-third, *3.

In summary, we need three distinct non-integer labels:

N.7 = #(N+1) for harmonics 7 and 14

N.5 = *(N+1) for harmonic 11, and

N.4 = bN for harmonic 13.

The accompanying table gives this information for the two proposals from Bb3 up to C6. Position labels in boldface are the same as those one octave below. Note how additional position labels in the upper octave interleave between the boldface labels. Dashes indicate the megaphone regime.

The first example in staff notation shows how non-integer decimal notation might be used for specifying positions for a whole-tone scale played in the lower octave followed by a chromatic scale from F4 to F5, with every other note in the latter using the same position as that in the whole-tone scale. The second example shows the same two scales (using some "alternate" outer positions), making use of the "against-the-grain" technique for brilliant effect when played very fast. The third example shows a little chromatic phrase from the 12th to the 16th harmonic (and back down) to be played as a lip-slur exercise. On a well-designed instrument, each note should "speak" (or "slot") clearly rather than sounding like part of a continuous glissando. I've included the respective ETSP Charts for those who find them helpful (or merely interesting!).

Finally, I include some impedance/frequency diagrams—"signatures"— for five trombones of varying bore sizes, plus a predicted signature for the Conn 88H taken from Alistair Braden's tour de force of a doctoral thesis (as are those of the Rath trombones). The King signature is from a paper by Fréour & Scavone. So-called "good slotting" corresponds to tall-and-narrow resonance humps. And "good intonation" means that peak frequencies closely match (equitempered) tones of a major triad (plus the ninth). As can be seen, in the very high register, large bore instruments tend to have resonance humps that "slump down and spread out" at frequencies below those of smaller bores, before they all trail off into the megaphone regime.

As usual, constructive comments, questions, and suggestions for improvement are always welcome.

.

BrassSection · 2023-08-07 12:40 p.m.

Usually on the second floor, it’s easier than in the basement.

BrassSection · by **BrassSection** » 2023-08-07 7:52 p.m.

My question is, how high do you HAVE to play? In my situation, I rarely see anything written above a high F for any instrument I play, when actually using music, with the exception of trumpet, in which I’ve had a high C (Bb). During improv, which is 99% of my playing, I generally stop at the F (true F, depending on which horn it might not be written as F) with an occasional F# on all horns. Recently went for a high C on trombone on an upbeat energetic song with no sweat and it worked well in the song. Must be a lucky one, generally my only practice instrument is trumpet unless I have music for playing in an ensemble (admitted poor sight reader), and about once a month will just for fun hit a high Bb on trombone or euph, never really tried the C before, but it was easy and controlled.

As far as positions, pretty much what others are using, alternate positions usually based on what notes before and after.

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2023-08-07 8:02 p.m.

[quote="imsevimse"]Anyhow some champs with super choops like Dave Steinmeier manage to make much higher notes speak clear and with power. It's a puzzle to me I have never solved, but give me a few years and a few advice and then maybe. Anyone has a suggestion how I can go higher? How can I get those real high notes speak?[/quote]

Dave has a chip on one of his front teeth, and he will tell you that he got an extra octave when that tooth got chipped. Who knows how true that is, but he is not the only high note brass player with a chip in one of his front teeth.

That said, the real way is to just play up there more. Most players will very occasionally venture above their comfort range just to mess around once in a while, but if you practice up there consistently the sound will get fuller and the notes will lock in easier. How worth it is it to spend practice time doing that? Well...that's up to you!

Also, you have an alto trombone, yes? Alto doesn't necessarily increase your range, but it can help to really lock in notes at the edge of your existing range. This happened to me with G5. That note locks in really easily on alto, and I found after consistent alto practice that the note also locked in consistently for me on tenor, after only sort of being able to play that note before.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2023-08-07 8:54 p.m.

I'm pretty sure Dave had the same range before the chip. Maybe it became more secure. It's one of those things that makes a good story to be repeated endlessly.

Over the years my front teeth have separated very slightly so I now have a small space. I feel stronger than ever, but it's just a coincidence - I've been playing correctly for 20 more years than I had been 20 years ago.

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2023-08-08 12:16 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]I'm pretty sure Dave had the same range before the chip. Maybe it became more secure. It's one of those things that makes a good story to be repeated endlessly.[/quote]

That makes more sense!

tbdana · 2023-08-08 1:45 p.m.

[quote="imsevimse"]Anyone has a suggestion how I can go higher? How can I get those real high notes speak?[/quote]

Sorry for the bad news, but I think the answer is that unfortunate word: PRACTICE. You just have to spend a lot of time up there, and not just hitting the notes but doing scales, intervals, arpeggios, etc. In other words, living up there.

Of course, a lot of playing strong and clear up there is a matter of strength-building. So you're going to get tired fast when you start doing that, and that's when most people give up. But do an hour a day of scale and interval practice where you never go below high Bb (except perhaps for a note or two to check that you're not resetting your chops to play high) and I'll be dollars to donuts you'll get that range in time. Progress comes one half-step at a time, and each note you get takes a lot of work. Then it takes just as much work to get the next note.

Psychologically, my thought process is to devote a period of time, like two years, to the effort. In two years I'll be two years older no matter what, and I can be two years older with a high range or without. In fact, just typing that inspires me to go practice my high range. Bye! :)

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2023-08-08 1:53 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]Of course, a lot of playing strong and clear up there is a matter of strength-building. So you're going to get tired fast when you start doing that, and that's when most people give up. But do an hour a day of scale and interval practice where you never go below high Bb (except perhaps for a note or two to check that you're not resetting your chops to play high).[/quote]

An hour above high Bb? This one? :trebleclef: :line3:

My scales are going to be Do Re Mi splat, and repeat. An hour of that will be boring I think, and my family has to listen to it.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2023-08-08 2:02 p.m.

[quote="timothy42b"]

An hour above high Bb? This one? :trebleclef: :line3:

My scales are going to be Do Re Mi splat, and repeat. An hour of that will be boring I think, and my family has to listen to it.[/quote]

LOL! Yeah. Hard. Boring. And then it gets even harder. But that range comes from doing all the work you do in a lower range up in the higher range, and spending tons and tons of time doing it. Eventually, the splats come higher and higher.

My "start at Bb" is kind of arbitrary. Start lower if you have to. But you do need to give yourself a floor, so you don't cop out. You gotta stay up there and do the work no matter how limited, or difficult, or boring.

And that is why so few people really have a useful high range. It's just damn hard and boring, and takes forever because progress is incremental and painfully slow.

This is just my experience and opinion. Hopefully someone will come in with a magic bullet and set me straight. But I'm not holding my breath.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2023-08-08 6:26 p.m.

It's not necessarily about either practice time or strength.

A couple of days ago I was teaching an older trumpet player who could struggle up to high C, sometimes if he was lucky.

One small change and a high C came out effortlessly and he could easily go to G above.

You have to know what to look for and where to look for it.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2023-08-08 6:39 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]It's not necessarily about either practice time or strength.

A couple of days ago I was teaching an older trumpet player who could struggle up to high C, sometimes if he was lucky.

One small change and a high C came out effortlessly and he could easily go to G above.

You have to know what to look for and where to look for it.[/quote]

By all means, I bow to knowledge. What do you look for, and where do you look for it?

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2023-08-08 7:30 p.m.

It's individual..I do a lot of diagnostics in a lesson.

MStarke · by **MStarke** » 2023-08-09 3:49 a.m.

Not that I could compete by any means compete with e.g. Doug's expertise and some of the very extreme playing examples.

Still my own experience - substantially increasing and stabilizing my high range within the last years - showed that I need both: Correcting the approach and technique, but also simple "training" to a) build endurance and b) embedding correct approach in my playing.

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