Should we play Russian music?

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2023-07-28 12:08 p.m.

I belong to a community orchestra. I see our first concert of the upcoming season features a Rachmaninov symphony. I do not think we should be performing Russian music while Russia continues to occupy Ukraine.

I did not stand by my principles last season. I played Isle of the Dead and Shostakovich 5. I raised the issue with a director of the orchestra during one of the early rehearsals of the Shostakovich. I was informed that the matter had been discussed by the directors and it was agreed that because Shostakovich had his own issues with the Stalin regime, it was okay for us to perform it.

But the war continues. And I read about an Estonian concert master who resigned rather than perform Russian music. Yesterday a Ukrainian fencer was stripped of her championship when she refused to shake her Russian opponent’s hand following the match.

ithinknot · by **ithinknot** » 2023-07-28 12:43 p.m.

I understand your concern.

Personally, I'd feel that programming the Rach AND including some concrete action like a collection/donation from ticket sales to a relief charity would make a far stronger and more compelling institutional statement (shared culture vs current crime and tragedy, etc) than either "simply" playing it or not playing it.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2023-07-28 12:48 p.m.

Long dead composers have nothing to do with the current regime, and some had problems with Russia as it was (see Shostakovich). It's good music, play away.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2023-07-28 1:27 p.m.

It's less controversial to ply Tchaikovsky than Wagner imo

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2023-07-28 1:41 p.m.

[quote="ithinknot"]Personally, I'd feel that programming the Rach AND including some concrete action like a collection/donation from ticket sales to a relief charity would make a far stronger and more compelling institutional statement (shared culture vs current crime and tragedy, etc) than either "simply" playing it or not playing it.[/quote]

I agree. It would be appropriate to recognize the evil and horror of the current situation in Ukraine by positive action (such as that suggested), and not take out our anger on long-dead, innocent composers or their (sometimes inspiring) music.

stewbones43 · by **stewbones43** » 2023-07-28 1:49 p.m.

I wouldn't play anything written by Putin! The other Russian composers have nothing to do with the invasion of Ukraine.

Stewbones43

hyperbolica · 2023-07-28 2:06 p.m.

I wouldn't play anything Putin has written, but everything else I think is pretty safe. It's not the Russian people who have committed these crimes, it's Putin. Most Russian music was written under a completely different Russian government separated by revolutions. Canceling every vestige of remote connection to an evil power sometimes just goes too far. The link between composers like Tchaikovsky, Borodin and Kabalevsky and the person making terrible decisions is distant.

Russian culture isn't killing Ukrainians, it's one self absorbed narcissist. You're not going to hurt Putin by canceling Shostakovitch or Rachmaninov.

If you have a problem with it personally, stay home, but allow other people the right to make up their own mind about it.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2023-07-28 2:13 p.m.

Should those who think Biden is a "traitor" (as some have accused) refuse to play music by American composers?

If Trump is re-elected, should those who oppose him do the same?

Isn't all this rather misplaced anger?

Can we find a way to turn our strong emotions into something positive?

norbie2018 · by **norbie2018** » 2023-07-28 2:28 p.m.

It is beautiful music written a long time ago by those, as it has already been pointed out, who had problems with Russia at the time. Enough with cancel culture.

Bach5G · 2023-07-28 3:06 p.m.

“Enough with cancel culture.”

If only Russia would stop trying to cancel Ukraine.

“It’s less controversial to pl[a]y Tchaikovsky than Wagner imo.”

WW2 was over 75 years ago. Germany is now considered a good global citizen. The Russian SMO continues. The attempted extermination of the Ukraine people is ongoing in real time.

“Isn't all this rather misplaced anger?”

Misplaced? Is the Russian occupation of Ukraine morally equivalent to American culture wars? Are Hunter Biden and Prighozin equivalent? Russians kill and maim Ukrainians everyday. Misplaced anger? No. I think anger is justified and genuine.

The Estonian concert master when asked about Russian music replied that Russian culture was safe, that it was in no danger. It will survive. It was not under attack.

TBF, the orch did perform a Ukrainian program last fall.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2023-07-28 3:17 p.m.

Playing Russian music is not promoting Russia. I'm not sure of your connection there.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2023-07-28 3:32 p.m.

Reason Wagner is more controversial is because he personally held some rather unsavory views and wrote about them rather extensively, not because he lived in Prussia. Likewise, someone like Tchaikovsky lived in the Tsarist Russian Empire, a country that hasn't existed in over 100 years.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2023-07-28 3:41 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]“Isn't all this rather misplaced anger?”

Misplaced? Is the Russian occupation of Ukraine morally equivalent to American culture wars? Are Hunter Biden and Prighozin equivalent? Russians kill and maim Ukrainians everyday. Misplaced anger? No. I think anger is justified and genuine.[/quote]

Of course I'm as angry at Putin and Prighozin and the Ukrainian invasion as you and other reasonable people are.

But I'm not angry at Tchaikovsky or Stravinsky or Rimsky or Prokofiev or Shostakovich or Rachmaninoff (who became alienated from Russia and was naturalized as a U.S. Citizen in 1943!), whose music I treasure and enjoy performing and listening to, and who have nothing to do with the current evil.

brassmedic · by **brassmedic** » 2023-07-28 4:02 p.m.

[quote="Posaunus"]Should those who think Biden is a "traitor" (as some have accused) refuse to play music by American composers?

If Trump is re-elected, should those who oppose him do the same?

Isn't all this rather misplaced anger?

Can we find a way to turn our strong emotions into something positive?[/quote]
Not the same thing, but it's worth pointing out that there are many musicians who refuse to allow Trump to play their music. <LINK_TEXT text="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musicians ... heir_music">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musicians_who_oppose_Donald_Trump%27s_use_of_their_music</LINK_TEXT>

officermayo · by **officermayo** » 2023-07-28 4:15 p.m.

I guess the Russian arrangement of Lassus Trombone is a no go, huh?

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2023-07-28 4:16 p.m.

[quote="officermayo"]I guess the Russian arrangement of Lassus Trombone is a no go, huh?[/quote]

I was going to tie that in but I didn't want to touch the third rail :lol:

officermayo · by **officermayo** » 2023-07-28 4:36 p.m.

[quote="Matt K"]<QUOTE author="officermayo" post_id="216309" time="1690575304" user_id="12380">
I guess the Russian arrangement of Lassus Trombone is a no go, huh?[/quote]

I was going to tie that in but I didn't want to touch the third rail :lol:
</QUOTE>

Yeah, you're right.

I crack up over the thought that not playing a piece of music has any impact on the situation in Ukraine. Must be some kind of musician's super power I've yet to attain during my 64 trips around the Sun. Reminds me of how American Southerners in the 1960s thought they were hurting the Beatles by burning their records THAT THEY HAD ALREADY BOUGHT.

"We'll show those limeys a thing or two about saying they're more popular than JEEZUSSS!!! Let's burn these albums the Beatles have already gotten our money from".

norbie2018 · by **norbie2018** » 2023-07-28 5:07 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]“Enough with cancel culture.”

If only Russia would stop trying to cancel Ukraine.

“It’s less controversial to pl[a]y Tchaikovsky than Wagner imo.”

WW2 was over 75 years ago. Germany is now considered a good global citizen. The Russian SMO continues. The attempted extermination of the Ukraine people is ongoing in real time.

“Isn't all this rather misplaced anger?”

Misplaced? Is the Russian occupation of Ukraine morally equivalent to American culture wars? Are Hunter Biden and Prighozin equivalent? Russians kill and maim Ukrainians everyday. Misplaced anger? No. I think anger is justified and genuine.

The Estonian concert master when asked about Russian music replied that Russian culture was safe, that it was in no danger. It will survive. It was not under attack.

TBF, the orch did perform a Ukrainian program last fall.[/quote]

How does the music of a bunch of dead Russians effect you so? It is this misplaced anger that is at the heart of cancel culture, of which you are an active participant.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2023-07-28 5:19 p.m.

Would you really be playing "Russian music?"

Rachmaninov lived all over Europe and America, including Stockholm, Paris, Dresden, Copenhagen, and began touring the U.S. in 1909. Eventually he fled Russia forever, fleeing its politics in 1917 and never returned. He moved from Russia to Denmark in 1917, then moved to the United States in 1918 and lived in the U.S. until he died. He lived in New York and San Francisco, then eventually moved to Beverly Hills, California where he remained until he died, and his funeral was in the Silver Lake area of Los Angeles, and his body is buried somewhere in New York. All told, he lived in the U.S. since he was 33 years old and while he was born in Russia, he died a U.S. citizen.

This is a guy who performed with and conducted the Boston Symphony in 1909-10, did recitals at Smith College in MA, performed with the New York Symphony under Mahler, turned down offers to conduct the Cincinnati Symphony and another season with the Boston Symphony to stay in New York, but arranged and conducted the Star Spangled Banner with Boston, performed and conducted his Symphony No. 3 and The Bells with the Cleveland Orchestra and the Chicago Symphony, and recorded a whole bunch of things in Cleveland and Los Angeles. He was even a member of the American Federation of Musicians, Local 47 (Los Angeles), and actually played the Hollywood Bowl while living in L.A.

So, would you really be playing "Russian" music? Or would you be playing the music of a guy who fled his birth country due to its politics and became an American citizen? Could it be that, in this case at least, your principles are a bit misplaced?

Not everything is political. Try to separate the art of a long dead composer born in Russia from the politics more than a hundred years later of that country that has even changed its name three times since then. Rachmaninov was born in imperial Russia, before there was even a Soviet Union, before it fell, and before Russia became the strong man federation state it is today. He had nothing to do with modern Russia. Didn't even live there. Wasn't even a citizen.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2023-07-28 5:39 p.m.

Fair enough with respect to Rachmaninov.

AndrewMeronek · by **AndrewMeronek** » 2023-07-28 5:48 p.m.

Similar situation with Stravinsky: lived in France 1-34-45, U.S. from 1945 on.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2023-07-28 5:52 p.m.

Prokofiev (who died on the same day as Stalin) and Shostakovich both had terrible run-ins with the Communist state. Both fled to the West for a while, and both returned home to Russia (to be persecuted again). Neither would be on Putin's good side were they alive today.

Kdanielsen · by **Kdanielsen** » 2023-07-28 5:56 p.m.

Last summer I played 1812. The parts had Great Gate at Kiev inserted where the Russian national anthem goes at the end instead of the anthem. It was actually quite effective. The cut worked well and it made a point. It didn’t feel like a good time to be playing the Russian anthem.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2023-07-28 6:11 p.m.

[quote="Kdanielsen"]Last summer I played 1812. The parts had Great Gate at Kiev inserted where the Russian national anthem goes at the end instead of the anthem. It was actually quite effective. The cut worked well and it made a point. It didn’t feel like a good time to be playing the Russian anthem.[/quote]

Wow. What a great idea! Even though "Great Gate of Kiev" was written by Mussorgsky as a descriptive of an artwork and not an anthem, it's still a great idea.

I'm not sure what Russia is using as a National Anthem. The Internationale was adopted by the Soviets, while the one it replaced (and was used in 1812) was called "God Save the Tsar" and I'm not sure Putin wants to use that.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2023-07-28 6:14 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]I'm not sure what Russia is using as a National Anthem. The Internationale was adopted by the Soviets, while the one it replaced (and was used in 1812) was called "God Save the Tsar" and <I>I'm not sure Putin wants to use that</I>.[/quote]

Why not? I think Putin actually thinks of himself as a modern-day Tsar, upholding the glory of mother Russia!

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2023-07-28 6:53 p.m.

I will have to update my music history to add Rachmaninov and Stravinsky to the list of American composers.

Arnold Schoenberg too. He and Stravinsky both lived in LA for a time.

EriKon · by **EriKon** » 2023-07-28 7:02 p.m.

[quote="Matt K"]Reason Wagner is more controversial is because he personally held some rather unsavory views and wrote about them rather extensively, not because he lived in Prussia. Likewise, someone like Tchaikovsky lived in the Tsarist Russian Empire, a country that hasn't existed in over 100 years.[/quote]

Not the real topic of the thread, but I just want to add to this: At the time Wagner lived, it was kind of 'normal' and a typical socially accepted position in the German Reich and the 'states' before. Still, it's a difference to just share a very common position or being very much into a topic and writing books and other texts that are definitely inhuman against people of other cultures and religions even if it's socially accepted at that time, I guess. But still it's something to keep in mind when talking about it. It's a very difficult topic and German culture is in general not easy in some ways, because Nazi Germany abused so much for their propaganda. Wagner of course was their showpiece (he was long dead by then). It's also one of the reasons why we don't have real German folk music anymore, because it was abused as well.

I would probably share the opinion about the old Russian masters of composers and it should be fine to play them as they don't promote Russia. But I feel like it is the right call to not support artists that are very close to the current Russian regime.

MrHCinDE · by **MrHCinDE** » 2023-07-29 5:59 p.m.

[quote="EriKon"]Not the real topic of the thread, but I just want to add to this: At the time Wagner lived, it was kind of 'normal' and a typical socially accepted position in the German Reich and the 'states' before. Still, it's a difference to just share a very common position or being very much into a topic and writing books and other texts that are definitely inhuman against people of other cultures and religions even if it's socially accepted at that time, I guess. But still it's something to keep in mind when talking about it.[/quote]

The level of social acceptance for such things in Wagner’s lifetime does not diminish his level of anti-Semitism. It’s not as if he somehow became associated with anti-Semitism from the way he was celebrated by the Third Reich without reason.

On the original topic of Rachmaninoff, I personally wouldn’t have a problem playing it. I don’t see that anything he wrote supports or celebrates the actions of the present day tyrant.

On Wagner, I’m a little torn, it is indeed beautiful music but I’ve heard first hand from some fellow Germans (and other nationalities) who I know to hold quite right-wing views that he is their favourite composer exactly because of his political views and because of some cultural alignment with those who also held him in high esteem. This does not mean the majority of the population by any means and I wouldn’t support erasing or cancelling Wagner, but we shouldn’t forget that some people still celebrate him for non-music reasons and should also keep this in mind as part of the debate, which incidentally I’m glad we can have as members of a free and democratic society.

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2023-07-29 6:32 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]<QUOTE author="Kdanielsen" post_id="216327" time="1690581367" user_id="7231">
Last summer I played 1812. The parts had Great Gate at Kiev inserted where the Russian national anthem goes at the end instead of the anthem. It was actually quite effective. The cut worked well and it made a point. It didn’t feel like a good time to be playing the Russian anthem.[/quote]

Wow. What a great idea! Even though "Great Gate of Kiev" was written by Mussorgsky as a descriptive of an artwork and not an anthem, it's still a great idea.

I'm not sure what Russia is using as a National Anthem. The Internationale was adopted by the Soviets, while the one it replaced (and was used in 1812) was called "God Save the Tsar" and I'm not sure Putin wants to use that.
</QUOTE>

God Save the Tsar (the anthem quoted by Tchaikovsky at the end of 1812) hasn't been the Russian national anthem for over a century, and two regimes ago. It has nothing to do with either communist Russia (in fact it was banned in the USSR), or the Putin regime. Not entirely sure why it needs to be replaced by anything today? In fact it is the Russians themselves who used to replace it with other anthems in Marche Slave and 1812 during the sovietic era.

The Soviet Union did use the Internationale as its national anthem in the early decades, they switched to their definitive anthem in 1944. Post-soviet Russia is still using the 1944 soviet anthem melody today, just with different lyrics.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2023-07-29 9:38 p.m.

Rachmaninoff better not get canceled. His second piano concerto is one of the singular greatest works of human genius of all time.

Do we cancel Kasparov's recorded chess games and not study them?

Neo_Bri · by **Neo_Bri** » 2023-07-29 10:02 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]Rachmaninoff better not get canceled. His second piano concerto is one of the singular greatest works of human genius of all time.

Do we cancel Kasparov's recorded chess games and not study them?[/quote]

Interesting example here. Kasparov is and was a huge critic of "the regime" and is Armenian. Spassky might be more apt, though he had his own criticisms of his own place and time. Karpov would be the better example...but point taken ^_^.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2023-07-29 10:40 p.m.

I don’t think there should be a total, permanent ban on Russian music but perhaps as long as Russia continues to occupy parts of Ukraine.

Purely symbolic of course. Obviously it would not make a whit of difference to Putin. But maybe a show of solidarity with Ukraine. And, it might help keep the matter in the public consciousness.

Perhaps it is a bigger issue here in the GWN. Wikipedia says Canada is home to 1.4 million people of Ukrainian descent – the world's second largest Ukrainian diaspora after Russia. My maternal grandparents were of Ukr origin.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2023-07-29 11:01 p.m.

I don't think anyone is siding with Russia here. But Russian music has very, very little to do with Russia currently.

Why do you conflate the two?

Posaunus · 2023-07-29 11:04 p.m.

[quote="MrHCinDE"]... I’ve heard first hand from some fellow Germans (and other nationalities) who I know to hold quite right-wing views that [Wagner] is their favourite composer exactly because of his political views and because of some cultural alignment with those who also held him in high esteem.[/quote]

I was not aware that this is still a "thing" in Germany. :( As it is, unfortunately, here in the U.S.A. :redface:

harrisonreed · 2023-07-29 11:12 p.m.

[quote="Neo Bri"]

Interesting example here. Kasparov is and was a huge critic of "the regime" and is Armenian. Spassky might be more apt, though he had his own criticisms of his own place and time. Karpov would be the better example...but point taken ^_^.[/quote]

Yes, you're totally right. Some of the composers listed here might be more akin to Kasparov, maybe.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2023-07-29 11:14 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]I don’t think there should be a total, permanent ban on Russian music but perhaps as long as Russia continues to occupy parts of Ukraine.

Purely symbolic of course. Obviously it would not make a whit of difference to Putin. But maybe a show of solidarity with Ukraine. And, it might help keep the matter in the public consciousness.[/quote]

I'll still contend that directing our anger (even symbolically) at Russian composers (or composers who fled from Russia or who have Russian names) is essentially fruitless. The Ukraine "matter" and its evil nature remains in our public consciousness.

Perhaps it is a bigger issue here in the GWN.

What is the "GWN" ? :idk:

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2023-07-29 11:21 p.m.

Great White North. <EMOJI seq="1f1e8-1f1e6" tseq="1f1e8-1f1e6">🇨🇦</EMOJI> <EMOJI seq="1f9ab" tseq="1f9ab">🦫</EMOJI>

We’ll have to disagree about this. In my view - and I am in the minority on this - is no Russian music, no Russian tennis players. Kick the Russian players out of the NHL (OV out!). No Russian culture of any sort until the atrocities and war crimes cease.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2023-07-29 11:33 p.m.

Sorry. I get it now. I'm not up on pop culture references. I'll leave it at that.

MrHCinDE · by **MrHCinDE** » 2023-07-30 1:57 a.m.

[quote="Posaunus"]I was not aware that this is still a "thing" in Germany. :( As is is, unfortunately, here in the U.S.A. :redface:[/quote]

Thankfully it is a very small minority but you can read here for some quantification of the reported number of antisemitic incidents:

~~[url]~~<LINK_TEXT text=" https://www.report-antisemitism.de/doc ... S_2022.pdf"> https://www.report-antisemitism.de/documents/Antisemitic_incidents_in_Germany_Annual-Report_Federal_Association_RIAS_2022.pdf</LINK_TEXT>

One example from the report is:

“At the premises of an association that promotes anti-fascist and anti-racist youth work, attendees were attacked by a right-wing extremist group with beer bottles and stones and subjected to antisemitic insults. Members of the attacking group repeatedly gave the Hitler salute and shouted at the attendees: “Come out, you bloody Jews!” Previously, they had tried to set fire to objects in the backyard of the association’s building.”

This reported incident did not occur during the Third Reich, it happened in 2022. There are also very deeply concerning racist/xenophobic WhatsApp groups for police officers which have come to light in recent years. We cannot afford to take our eye off the ball and giving very careful thought before choosing to play Wagner is part of that.

JohnL · 2023-07-30 2:15 a.m.

Did we lose a post from Bach5G somewhere?

Edit: Never mind; I see it now.

EriKon · by **EriKon** » 2023-07-30 5:19 a.m.

[quote="MrHCinDE"]The level of social acceptance for such things in Wagner’s lifetime does not diminish his level of anti-Semitism. It’s not as if he somehow became associated with anti-Semitism from the way he was celebrated by the Third Reich without reason.[/quote]

Absolutely not, never said that. It's just something that people keep forgetting to view a topic from a historic perspective. And as I also said: It's a huge difference from just sharing a socially accepted position to being an active author initiating and actively proclaiming anti-Semitism.

[quote="Posaunus"]I was not aware that this is still a "thing" in Germany. :( As is is, unfortunately, here in the U.S.A. :redface:[/quote]

Oh, it was never gone. There were people killed by Nazis over here basically since WWII and it's getting more in the last 40 years. And unfortunately people are voting again for a potentially right-wing extrimist party (which is right now on 2nd position in polls). I'm afraid many Germans have forgotten about our history. Although many of those people (who are voting for that party) would never see themselves as being racists when in fact their actions and opinions definitely show the opposite.

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2023-07-30 6:05 a.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]Great White North. <EMOJI seq="1f1e8-1f1e6" tseq="1f1e8-1f1e6">🇨🇦</EMOJI> <EMOJI seq="1f9ab" tseq="1f9ab">🦫</EMOJI>

We’ll have to disagree about this. In my view - and I am in the minority on this - is no Russian music, no Russian tennis players. Kick the Russian players out of the NHL (OV out!). No Russian culture of any sort until the atrocities and war crimes cease.[/quote]

OK. So I am supposed to refuse teaching my Russian students just because they happen to have been born in a country with a madman leader? What about an Iranian student, should I refuse too? Where do I draw the line? I guess Americans are okay now that Iraq and Afghanistan are over, but a few years ago I should have stood on principle and refused to teach them too? Should we not, as Canadians, be barred from everywhere including our home country until we repair the results of the cultural genocide we perpetrated against the Indigenous peoples of Canada (acts of which were still happening in my lifetime — and I'm not old!)?

I have a couple of Russian friends who got harassed in Germany after they were heard speaking Russian to each other, and followed around and threatened and told to go back to Russia, that Russians are not welcome in Germany because of the invasion. Was that right? What about the fact that it happened when they were in the middle of collecting and delivering donations for Ukrainian refugees?

I'm sorry, but this kind of all-or-nothing approach, this conception of solidarity that requires viewing an entire population as the enemy irrespective of the individuals' actions or beliefs, is a large part of why we have wars in the first place. It's dehumanizing, and it allows reasonable and kind people to hate other people they otherwise wouldn't be capable of hating.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2023-07-30 7:06 a.m.

Fully agree^.

What even is “Russian” in this context? My wife is technically a citizen of both the US and Russia. But she’s not ethnically Russian. Should she be ostracized from public life until she flies back to Russia and solves the conflict with her bare hands? What about someone who is ethnically “Russian” but hasn’t been involved in lRussia” for several generations?

As noted, Tchaikovsky has utterly nothing to do with current geopolitics having died in the 1800s. His government dissolved in the early 1900s. Even the language that he spoke and wrote has been significantly modified since his death.

MrHCinDE · by **MrHCinDE** » 2023-07-30 7:28 a.m.

[quote="EriKon"]Absolutely not, never said that. It's just something that people keep forgetting to view a topic from a historic perspective. And as I also said: It's a huge difference from just sharing a socially accepted position to being an active author initiating and actively proclaiming anti-Semitism.[/quote]

I think it’s pretty clear that Wagner was more the latter.

Just to avoid any miscommunication which can occur with online exchanges, I am definitely not suggesting that EriKon is some sort of Nazi sympatizer and appreciate his point of view that you also have to think about the historical context.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2023-07-30 10:34 a.m.

This smacks to me of the German/Italian/Japanese discrimination in WWII United States, or the widespread anti-Muslim sentiments after 9/11. A knee-jerk, useless, and self-destructive exercise.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2023-07-30 12:43 p.m.

Lots of interesting points.

Aidan: no one is suggesting interning American citizens of Russian origin. No one thinks interning German POWs during WW2 was wrong. Russians citizens abroad are free to return home; they’re not refugees.

Matt: this isn’t about cancelling individual composers. No one in singling out Tchaik, the 5, Strav, Prok or Shosta. It is a rejection of Russian culture for as long as Ru continues its war against Ukr. If Ru succeeds and Ukrainians are killed, sent to the Gulag, or escape as refugees, then a ban as in Israel/Wagner might have to be considered. Yes, purely symbolic, but as musicians what else can we do? Mind you, a ban on Wagner does’t appear to have moderated Israel’s current actions against, for example, West Bank Palestinians.

Max: would you continue to teach a Russian student who supported Putin and adopted Russian propaganda that the Ukr were “vermin to be exterminated”? Would you teach an anti-Semite? Your reference to Canada’s relationship with its indigenous people and cultural genocide is backwards. In this case, Russia is waging actual genocide in Ukr.

1/2

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2023-07-30 12:49 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]Lots of interesting points.

Aidan: no one is suggesting interning American citizens of Russian origin. No one thinks interning German POWs during WW2 was wrong. Russians citizens abroad are free to return home; they’re not refugees.

1/2[/quote]

There's plenty more to that discrimination than the POWs or internment camps. Boycotting of Italian owned businessnes, slurs thrown, the list goes on. None of that affected the countries of the Axis in the slightest.

Kdanielsen · 2023-07-30 12:58 p.m.

[quote="LeTromboniste"]<QUOTE author="Bach5G" post_id="216488" time="1690687308" user_id="2999">
Great White North. <EMOJI seq="1f1e8-1f1e6" tseq="1f1e8-1f1e6">🇨🇦</EMOJI> <EMOJI seq="1f9ab" tseq="1f9ab">🦫</EMOJI>

We’ll have to disagree about this. In my view - and I am in the minority on this - is no Russian music, no Russian tennis players. Kick the Russian players out of the NHL (OV out!). No Russian culture of any sort until the atrocities and war crimes cease.[/quote]

OK. So I am supposed to refuse teaching my Russian students just because they happen to have been born in a country with a madman leader? What about an Iranian student, should I refuse too? Where do I draw the line? I guess Americans are okay now that Iraq and Afghanistan are over, but a few years ago I should have stood on principle and refused to teach them too? Should we not, as Canadians, be barred from everywhere including our home country until we repair the results of the cultural genocide we perpetrated against the Indigenous peoples of Canada (acts of which were still happening in my lifetime — and I'm not old!)?

I have a couple of Russian friends who got harassed in Germany after they were heard speaking Russian to each other, and followed around and threatened and told to go back to Russia, that Russians are not welcome in Germany because of the invasion. Was that right? What about the fact that it happened when they were in the middle of collecting and delivering donations for Ukrainian refugees?

I'm sorry, but this kind of all-or-nothing approach, this conception of solidarity that requires viewing an entire population as the enemy irrespective of the individuals' actions or beliefs, is a large part of why we have wars in the first place. It's dehumanizing, and it allows reasonable and kind people to hate other people they otherwise wouldn't be capable of hating.
</QUOTE>

Well said! I agree!

I felt ok about the 1812 thing because it’s a piece about Russian military victory, and replacing that iconically Russian melody with the Great Gate a Kiev felt very apropos. I think the only Russian music/musicians that maybe don’t need our support right now are those with close ties to Putin. I think, given the things that happen in America and who we recently elected, it would be hugely hypocritical to cancel an entire nations historical art output. It feels like throwing stones in a glass house.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2023-07-30 12:59 p.m.

2/2

I was struck by a passage in Norman Davies’, Europe, a History, (1996) last night.

‘Russia’s remorseless expansion continued. A country that already possessed more land than it could usefully exploit kept on indulging its gargantuan appetite. In the west, Russia ate up the larger part of Sweden –Russia’s remorseless expansion continued. A country that already possessed more land than it could use for the exploit kept on indulging it’s gargantuan appetite. In the west, Russia ate up the larger part of Sweden –Finland and

poland – Lithuania. In the south, starting with Aziv, it swallowed up the whole of the Ottomans Black Sea provinces and Crimea, before moving against Persia, the Caucasus, and central Asia. In the east, having crossed Siberia to the Pacific, from the 1740s explored the shores of Alaska where a permanent settlement was built in Kodiak island in 1784.

Russian historians rationalize their country’s expansion in terms of ‘national tasks’ and ‘the gathering of the lands’. In reality, Russia and the rulers were addicted to territorial conquest. Their land-hunger was a symptom of a pathological condition, born of gross inefficiency and traditional militarism.’ p654-655.’

Has Russian acted any differently in the 20th and 21st centuries? The Soviet Union occupied eastern and central Europe including half of Germany and the Baltics. It ruled in Central Asia and sought to rule in Afghanistan. More recently it attacked South Ossetia and Georgia. The current war is more a case of Putin wanting to make Russia great again - Russian imperialism and colonization - as it is about NATO expansion.

Throws a different light on, say, Borodin’s Steppes of Central Asia?

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2023-07-30 1:10 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="Bach5G" post_id="216535" time="1690735398" user_id="2999">
Lots of interesting points.

Aidan: no one is suggesting interning American citizens of Russian origin. No one thinks interning German POWs during WW2 was wrong. Russians citizens abroad are free to return home; they’re not refugees.

1/2[/quote]

There's plenty more to that discrimination than the POWs or internment camps. Boycotting of Italian owned businessnes, slurs thrown, the list goes on. None of that affected the countries of the Axis in the slightest.
</QUOTE>

Who’s advocating for harassment of American citizens? Russian tourists though? Why should they stroll through Belgravia or along the Champs d’Elysee while Ukr hide in bomb shelters or die in Ru torture chambers?

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2023-07-30 1:38 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="216537" time="1690735761" user_id="3131">

There's plenty more to that discrimination than the POWs or internment camps. Boycotting of Italian owned businessnes, slurs thrown, the list goes on. None of that affected the countries of the Axis in the slightest.[/quote]

Who’s advocating for harassment of American citizens? Russian tourists though? Why should they stroll through Belgravia or along the Champs d’Elysee while Ukr hide in bomb shelters or die in Ru torture chambers?
</QUOTE>

I stand by my point.

tbdana · 2023-07-30 2:09 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]Who’s advocating for harassment of American citizens? Russian tourists though? Why should they stroll through Belgravia or along the Champs d’Elysee while Ukr hide in bomb shelters or die in Ru torture chambers?[/quote]

Wow, I dunno man, you got a bad case of Russian bigotry. This is like the way innocent Muslims were treated because of Al Qaeda. It's irrational, man. Step back, take a breath. You've lost the thread of reason, here. Russian tourists are no more responsible for or reflective of Russia's bad acts than Americans are for America's bad acts.

Surely you realize that the U.S. is perhaps the worst offender in the world, and has killed more civilians than any other country, invaded lots of countries (e.g. Iraq, Vietnam, Afghanistan, etc.), committed more genocidal acts (Native Americans, American Blacks, Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Iraqis, Vietnamese, etc.) and waged more war than any other country in the world. So stop and think how you'd like your own words reflected back to you about Americans.

IMHO, you're getting a little 'round the bend here and you could use a glass of wine and a bong hit.

WilliamLang · by **WilliamLang** » 2023-07-30 2:11 p.m.

i'm 100% with Aidan on this.

[quote="Burgerbob"]This smacks to me of the German/Italian/Japanese discrimination in WWII United States, or the widespread anti-Muslim sentiments after 9/11. A knee-jerk, useless, and self-destructive exercise.[/quote]

officermayo · by **officermayo** » 2023-07-30 2:30 p.m.

Canceling a country's music because of a war is the ultimate in modern day virtue signaling. It accomplishes nothing while allowing the practitioner FEEL better about themselves.

"I have tickets to see Leonid & Freinds, but I'm not going. THAT'LL show Putin I mean business!".

EriKon · by **EriKon** » 2023-07-30 2:41 p.m.

[quote="MrHCinDE"]<QUOTE author="EriKon" post_id="216501" time="1690708754" user_id="15077">
Absolutely not, never said that. It's just something that people keep forgetting to view a topic from a historic perspective. And as I also said: It's a huge difference from just sharing a socially accepted position to being an active author initiating and actively proclaiming anti-Semitism.[/quote]

I think it’s pretty clear that Wagner was more the latter.

Just to avoid any miscommunication which can occur with online exchanges, I am definitely not suggesting that EriKon is some sort of Nazi sympatizer and appreciate his point of view that you also have to think about the historical context.
</QUOTE>

Fully agree with you. And I think your intentions are pretty clear, no worries. FWIW, I'm actually quite the opposite of a Nazi sympathizer. Not in an extremists way but in my political opinions and the parties that I sympathize with. Actually I always feel like music (especially jazz where I'm mostly into) is such an overall including matter that I'm always a little surprised if musicians have very conservative, not to say antiquated, opinions in terms of social acceptance for everyone, no matter which gender, colour, love interest or whatsoever.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2023-07-30 3:28 p.m.

“Wow, I dunno man, you got a bad case of Russian bigotry.”

Yep. Totally agree. I am very anti-Ru these days. But I think demonstrably not irrational.

“Surely you realize that the U.S. is perhaps the worst offender in the world …”

I’m skeptical about that assertion. There have been some really bad actors in the 20th and early 21st centuries. But I see no reason to go there in this discussion.

I will say that I am grateful the US and other NATO members continue to provide weapons to Ukr.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2023-07-30 3:50 p.m.

This war is not even that popular among the Russians. Look how many young men left the country to avoid the draft (some are even fighting for the Ukrainians). And Putin dares not call it a war, only a "special action" (sounds to me like the words used to describe Korea 1950-53).

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2023-07-30 4:23 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]This war is not even that popular among the Russians. Look how many young men left the country to avoid the draft (some are even fighting for the Ukrainians). And Putin dares not call it a war, only a "special action" (sounds to me like the words used to describe Korea 1950-53).[/quote]
The men who left the country did that because they do not want to risk their lives for Putin but for what I've heard 80% of the Russians living there still support the war and a lot of the rest do not like the war but many of them still belive in Putin. The figures was before the Wagner riot so it could have changed, but chances are a new leader who replace Putin will be even worse. Not much heard from all those russians who fled the country, at least they could criticize Putin from abroad. Maybe they then are afraid what will happen to their relatives still in Russia? Anyone know more about this? Why are they silent? I believe our news do their research properly when they came up with the 80% support for the war. Most russians who before the war started already were living in Europe do not support the war and the war has therefore divided families. If they phone home to Russia the relatives living there don't even accept the fact that Russia has invaded Ukraine, they think all the civil casualties and destroyed infrastructure and cities in Ukraine is fake news, because of this many of these families avoid to talk about the war or they do not get along with their siblings or parents. Russian regime totally have a grip on media now and people belive what they hear and read there. No free press, no freedom of speach and Putin is surrounded by people who want to get at Ukraine even harder. I'm usually not commenting politics but in this case I'm really worried and do an exception. Sorry could not help.

When it comes to Russian music I can still accept to hear the great composers for reasons stated earlier in the thread, but if it happens at a public concert it is appropriate to also comment the war, if not I would probably feel awkward.

/Tom

ithinknot · by **ithinknot** » 2023-07-30 6:24 p.m.

I'll be more blunt than I was in my initial response.

Famously-dead Russian composers have nothing to do with the war, and the repertoire choices of a Canadian community orchestra are of significant consequence to precisely no one. I'm not sure removing Rachmaninoff even rises to the level of so-called virtue signalling, unless the conductor plans to turn to the audience and ask "guess what we're not playing tonight?". Furthermore, I disagree with many of Bach5G's surrounding statements, either by degree or categorically.

But certain responses here would seem to oversimplify the politics of any sort of cultural boycott. I agree that we need to remain very mindful of the extent to which the rhetorical climate can easily encourage street-level wrongs of the sort Maximilien has mentioned. In that context, eliminating Russian music is roughly at the "freedom fries" level of dumb, and should not be pursued.

But nor do I think every public choice is potentially a first step on the path to internment camps. There's a wide and complex gray area in between, and there is some value to gesture. The parallels with taking the knee are interesting. The NFL is not, fundamentally, the town square; it's a branch of the entertainment industry in which individual behavior can be contractually defined as an employer sees fit. But many of us, me included, would nonetheless defend the right of the individual to undertake symbolic actions, and recognize those actions as having some overarching communicative value even if they "achieve nothing" momentarily.

So, play the Rach. But, in your role as a festival director, would you invite a Russian orchestra to play it? Probably not, even though every member thereof may not support the war. In competitive athletics, do you (justifiably) view individual contestants as potentially blameless victims of circumstance, or do you (justifiably) recognize that these contests are overarchingly national and political in nature, and that you're not dealing with individual "discus artists" so much as the staff of a state-sponsored soft power enterprise? Do you invite the contestants, but not play the anthem at medal ceremonies? If the latter, are you not playing the anthem because of your own views on its symbolism, or are you not playing it so that the individual medalist doesn't have to stand there while it gets booed by the crowd? Either might apply. It's not simple.

I would also remind our US participants that - for better or worse - feelings on this topic are rather less abstract in countries with relevant borders and/or substantial Ukrainian refugee populations.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2023-07-30 6:35 p.m.

Not playing Rachmaninoff because of a war in 2022-present is similar to removing the Mona Lisa or the Statue of David from a museum because of WWII.

The greatest works of art of all time stand alone.

View or listen to them as art in their own right so we can preserve the good things humanity has done. Next thing you know you'll be watering the garden with Gatorade.

I'm reminded of the Taliban blowing up the Buddhas.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2023-07-30 7:13 p.m.

No Harrison. It would be more like the Buddha blowing up the Taliban.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2023-07-30 7:17 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]No Harrison. It would be more like the Buddha blowing up the Taliban.[/quote]

What are you talking about? Those statues predated Islam, when the region was Buddhist. Then someone 1400 years later decided that the statues posed a threat to civil society and blew them up.

The statues had nothing to do with anything.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2023-07-30 7:35 p.m.

“The statues had nothing to do with anything”

Agreed. I don’t know why you brought them up.

A better example might be ISIS pillaging museums and destroying priceless antiquities and artifacts. Destroying the past:

<LINK_TEXT text="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destructi ... amic_State">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_cultural_heritage_by_the_Islamic_State</LINK_TEXT>

Similar in a sense to Ru destroying museums, art galleries and libraries in Ukr. They want to destroy the Ukr identity and culture. And terrorize the Ukr civilian population. They went after Odessa, a UNESCO world heritage site recently. Also a port city from which grain is shipped to Africa.

I doubt boycotting Ru music would have any effect on people who would starve millions in Africa and fire missiles into maternity hospitals.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2023-07-30 8:19 p.m.

For what it’s worth, public option polls in Russia provide basically no insight into what people there actually think.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2023-07-30 9:07 p.m.

We boycotted the Russian Olympics in 1980. It did nothing except destroy the dreams of elite American athletes who worked their entire lives to make it there. The Russians boycotted the 1984 U.S. Olympics. It did nothing but destroy the dreams of elite Russian athletes who worked their entire lives to make it there.

And yet, at the height of the Cold War the Soviets and Americans managed to do a joint space mission.

Art is art. Politics should not enter into it. Boy would I be pissed if my compositions were banned because of something Trump or Biden did. Not playing music by dead Russian composers is the ultimate cutting off your nose to spite your face, IMHO. And it accomplishes exactly nothing, except to destroy someone's concert.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2023-07-30 9:43 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]

I doubt boycotting Ru music would have any effect on people who would starve millions in Africa and fire missiles into maternity hospitals.[/quote]

Then... what does it do?

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2023-07-30 10:49 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="Bach5G" post_id="216574" time="1690760104" user_id="2999">

I doubt boycotting Ru music would have any effect on people who would starve millions in Africa and fire missiles into maternity hospitals.[/quote]

Then... what does it do?
</QUOTE>

Well, for example, in the US at least, when a prominent politician suggests something like this:

“The developments came as former President Donald Trump called for a temporary halt in U.S. military support.” (USA Today this morning)

it reminds us of what is at stake, of which side of history we want to be on.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2023-07-30 11:07 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="216579" time="1690767832" user_id="3131">

Then... what does it do?[/quote]

Well, for example, in the US at least, when a prominent politician suggests something like this:

“The developments came as former President Donald Trump called for a temporary halt in U.S. military support.” (USA Today this morning)

it reminds us of what is at stake, of which side of history we want to be on.
</QUOTE>

What does boycotting Russian music do in this case?

Bach5G · 2023-07-30 11:08 p.m.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2023-07-30 11:15 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]It reminds us of what is at stake, of which side of history we want to be on.[/quote]

Hm. You believe we need to be reminded? Boycotting Russian music reminds us of something we already know. But, you know, you don't want to boycott it for yourself, which you are more than welcome to do. You want to boycott it for everyone else, who might not need to be reminded, and who might enjoy the music. You want to boycott it for the musician that might get that gig specifically because of the piece(s) being played. You essentially want to ban Russian music for me. I'm not sure I'm down with that. I really don't need any reminding, so I'm not going to get a benefit from this ban. It's only a detriment to me, because I don't share your views on banning the music of a long dead dude.

You're that serious about this? You would ban it for us all, rather than simply choose not to take the gig or something? Or am I misunderstanding you?

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2023-07-31 7:15 a.m.

[quote="Matt K"]For what it’s worth, public option polls in Russia provide basically no insight into what people there actually think.[/quote]
Yes, if the russian public state or regime asks but not if you also have other channels. As beeing so close to russia I thnk we have channels how to get closer to the truth. The information suggest a lot of russians did believe in Putin at least before the Wagner riot.

/Tom

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2023-07-31 7:46 a.m.

[quote="imsevimse"]<QUOTE author="Matt K" post_id="216576" time="1690762769" user_id="48">
For what it’s worth, public option polls in Russia provide basically no insight into what people there actually think.[/quote]
Yes, if the russian public state or regime asks but not if you also have other channels. As beeing so close to russia I thnk we have channels how to get closer to the truth. The information suggest a lot of russians did believe in Putin at least before the Wagner riot.

/Tom
</QUOTE>

If you pick up the phone and someone claims to be "Definitely not Putin, LLC" what are the odds you answer truthfully?

imsevimse · 2023-07-31 8:07 a.m.

[quote="Matt K"]<QUOTE author="imsevimse" post_id="216600" time="1690802124" user_id="3173">

Yes, if the russian public state or regime asks but not if you also have other channels. As beeing so close to russia I thnk we have channels how to get closer to the truth. The information suggest a lot of russians did believe in Putin at least before the Wagner riot.

/Tom[/quote]

If you pick up the phone and someone claims to be "Definitely not Putin, LLC" what are the odds you answer truthfully?
</QUOTE>
That doesn't work. It has to be trust, and I know there isn't much trust, but if you consider other ways to collect information such as getting infirmation from russians living in Europe who have relatives still in Russia and base the information of what they tell then you can come more close to the truth. A poll in Russia naturally doesn't work to get the truth. The media here has considered this. Families here who have relatives back in Russia are devided because the ones who live in Europe see one truth and the relatives and friends back in Russia see another. Families that are spread on both sides of the borders often can not even discuss the situation because they in Russia still belive there is no war, and they still believe in Putin and what he does for the country. They also think Ukraine is full of Nazi's and needs to be libirated and that the west is attacking Russia through Ukraine. They support Putin and belives he is doing what needs to be done. Many russians has got a much better living standard during the years of Putin, this is why he is popular. Information through relatives and friends is what immigrants report. This might have changed after the Wagner riot, but we don't know that yet. It's not Putins war, there are others worse than Putin like Prigozhin who want to get harder at Ukraine.

/Tom

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2023-07-31 8:42 a.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]I belong to a community orchestra. I see our first concert of the upcoming season features a Rachmaninov symphony. I do not think we should be performing Russian music while Russia continues to occupy Ukraine.[/quote]

The Kyiv Conservatory was founded on 3 November 1913 at the Kyiv campus of the Music College of the Russian Musical Society. The organization of the conservatory was spearheaded by Sergei Rachmaninoff and Alexander Glazunov.

Over a decade after he left the Soviet Union as a political refuge, living in the United States, Rachmaninoff wrote to the New York Times:

“At no time, and in no country,” the letter read, “has there ever existed a government responsible for so many cruelties, wholesale murders and common-law crimes in general as those perpetrated by the Bolsheviki. Is it really possible that, with all his love for humanity, wisdom and philosophy, he could not find words of sympathy and pity for the Russian nation?” He was of course, speaking of a Russia distinct from the USSR, and naturally distinct from Putin's Russian Federation, which did not exist yet.

Rachmaninoff was born a citizen of Imperial Russia and died a citizen of the USA. His third piano concerto, which became very popular in the US, was composed specifically for his tour of America.

Rachmaninoff belongs to Ukraine and the US as much as Russia. He has nothing to do with this war. Boycotting him would be ignorant to the extreme.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2023-07-31 9:23 a.m.

That doesn't work. It has to be trust, and I know there isn't much trust, but if you consider other ways to collect information such as getting infirmation from russians living in Europe who have relatives still in Russia and base the information of what they tell then you can come more close to the truth.

And what I'm saying is that there should be no basis for such trust, much less something claimed to have a favorability rating of 80%. You can't even get 80% of Americans to agree that we landed on the moon. I see no evidence that community orchestras avoiding music by composers who have Russian last names will affect either the approval for the current conflict amongst the general populace or that it would sway current leadership at all. And even if it DID, as Harrison has pointed out more eloquently than I, many of the people we would be canceling are not even Russians in any meaningful sense.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2023-07-31 11:23 a.m.

“Ignorant”? Harrison? Rather harsh words don’t you think?

Here is part of the Wikipedia entry on Rach:

‘Sergei Vasilyevich Rachmaninoff[a] (1 April [O.S. 20 March] 1873 – 28 March 1943) was a Russian composer, virtuoso pianist, and conductor. Rachmaninoff is widely considered one of the finest pianists of his day and, as a composer, one of the last great representatives of Romanticism in Russian classical music. Early influences of Tchaikovsky, Rimsky-Korsakov, and other Russian composers gave way to a thoroughly personal idiom notable for its song-like melodicism, expressiveness, dense contrapuntal textures, and rich orchestral colours.’

Russian music, written by a composer/pianist born and educated in Russia who in later life left Russia after the Revolution. A ethnic Russian. I doubt you’ve ever heard Rach described as anything but a Russian composer. But you’re raising - well repeating actually, as someone has already pointed this out - a nit-picky argument. The issue is Russian music, not specifically Rach. (We’re also doing Borodin’s Steppes later in the season. The argument is the same.) Rach was born in Imperial Russia and Russian imperialism is ongoing notwithstanding the changes in regimes. See the reference to Davies above.

Depriving the audience of the pleasures of Rachmaninov? Yes, but replacing them with the pleasures of Dvorak.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2023-07-31 11:37 a.m.

Fully one paragraph later:

After the Russian Revolution, Rachmaninoff and his family left Russia permanently, settling in New York in 1918. Following this, he spent most of his time touring as a pianist through the US and Europe, from 1932 onwards spending his summers at his villa in Switzerland. During this time, Rachmaninoff's primary occupation was performing, and his compositional output decreased significantly, completing just six works after leaving Russia. By 1942, his declining health led him to move to Beverly Hills, California, where he died from melanoma in 1943.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2023-07-31 11:43 a.m.

Please note: Ukraine was part of Russia for more time in the last 400 years than it hasn't. People writing about Ukrainians will call them Russians. Conflating Ukrainians as Russians really flies in the face of what's happening now.

So is a Professor at the Ukrainian Conservatory in Kiev the same as a modern day Russian? In 1928 he would be considered Russian. In 1995 he wouldn't.

But Ukrainians have always considered themselves different from Russians, much like Georgians and Azerbaijanis have.

Note that Stalin was a Georgian.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2023-07-31 11:55 a.m.

Stalin born Ioseb Besarionis dze Jughashvili in Georgia.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2023-07-31 11:58 a.m.

This thread doesn't belong in performance. It is mostly non-music related, and political in nature. If you're going to allow this sort of thing, at least make a place to put it where it can be ignored. It stopped serving the original question long ago.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2023-07-31 12:40 p.m.

So far it has circled around the topic of should the music has been played but that's a fair. Moved to tangents for now if it goes too far astray might lock.

imsevimse · 2023-07-31 2:11 p.m.

[quote="Matt K"]<QUOTE>That doesn't work. It has to be trust, and I know there isn't much trust, but if you consider other ways to collect information such as getting infirmation from russians living in Europe who have relatives still in Russia and base the information of what they tell then you can come more close to the truth.[/quote]

And what I'm saying is that there should be no basis for such trust....
</QUOTE>

If there are reports of families who can't even discuss the war because they don't agree on the truth about the war AND Putin, then you can ask them why? The answers can be used as parameters to calculate the statistics. Russians living abroad recorded in Europe, measuring more than 6 million people in 2020 and in the beginning of the war 500 000 to 1 million more fled Russia to other countries. There are many russians outside Russia who have relatives and connections in Russia.These immigrants can answer a poll truthfully on behalf of what they know because they do not risk consequences.

Russians in Russia supports Putin and the war. This sums up to it's not just Putins war, but I know we prefer to think it is.

[quote="Matt K"]You can't even get 80% of Americans to agree that we landed on the moon.[/quote]
Acctually I'm not surprised, but that may be local. I would be very surprised if less than 99% of native Swedes over 50 did not believe you (USA) landed on the moon, but that's another story.

...and note that I don't want to ban Russian music.

/Tom

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2023-07-31 2:22 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]“Ignorant”? Harrison? Rather harsh words don’t you think?

....

Russian music, written by a composer/pianist born and educated in Russia who in later life left Russia after the Revolution. A [sic] ethnic Russian. I doubt you’ve ever heard Rach described as anything but a Russian composer.
[/quote]

Not harsh at all. Ignorant? Absolutely, yes. And racist too, I guess. Ignorant and racist. That's all I have to say about boycotting music written by a person who died a US citizen 70+ years ago, because of a perceived connection of a war in 2022-present and that deceased US citizen's ethnicity.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2023-07-31 2:45 p.m.

Are Russians a “race” Harrison? Is “American”?

harrisonreed · 2023-07-31 2:51 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]Are Russians a “race” Harrison?[/quote]

Ugh, let me act as a dictionary for you too:

"Racism is discrimination and prejudice towards people based on their race or ethnicity. Racism can be present in social actions, practices, or political systems (e.g. apartheid) that support the expression of prejudice or aversion in discriminatory practices."

Ethic Russian was your term, and it's accurate too. So...if you weigh the same as a duck...then you must be made of wood...and therefore ....

Look bottom line, everything is in Flux. Nobody is perfect. You can read about Rach more, and decide to not boycott him. Or don't decide that. Just do the right thing.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2023-07-31 3:04 p.m.

Ethnic Russian. There are many ethnic groups in Russia. Wikipedia lists 193. Indeed, there was a complaint that many of the early conscripts were from non-Russian ethnic groups, from northern and eastern Russia. But, I’ll give you this point Harrison: being anti-Russian is racist. Ok. I accept that. Better that in the current circumstances than pro-Russian.

But Rach was a Russian by birth (Novgorad Oblast), by language, by religion (likel Russian Orthodox), by education and training (Moscow Conservatory). He may have become an American citizen later in life (he died in Beverly Hills) but most people would consider him a Russian composer as demonstrated by the Wikipedia entry.

Maybe it’s time to close this thread. Most of the intelligent discussion has already occurred (I am grateful to Tom for the Swedish perspective) and it’s degenerated to the usual name-calling (“racist”, “ignorant”) To be fair, Godwin’s Law hasn’t engaged. There’s that.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2023-07-31 3:16 p.m.

Agreed. Locking.

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