Women Trombonists

margdufay01 · by **margdufay01** » 2023-08-06 11:58 p.m.

Hello everyone :bang:

As a woman who plays the trombone, I've always been interested in tracing the history of women trombonists. I'd love to hear from anyone about their personal experiences as a female trombonist. It would be even better if anyone has any sources or links for further research. I've already done some of my own and will link a great resource below on some awesome women trombonists. Thanks in advance! :bassclef:

<LINK_TEXT text="https://glissandoo.com/en/blog/posts/fe ... ne-players">https://glissandoo.com/en/blog/posts/female-trombone-players</LINK_TEXT>

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2023-08-07 12:17 a.m.

There’s an interesting link in the Hillary Simms thread.

Vegasbound · by **Vegasbound** » 2023-08-07 3:04 a.m.

A few too add to your list

Carol Jarvis - Grammy nominated, prof at Trinity Laban & RNCM, 1st female President of the ITA, to name a few things

Melba Liston - trail blazer and unsung hero in the big band era and beyond as a player & composer/arranger

Lillian ‘Tiger Lil’ Briggs - another from the days of the all girl big bands, she went on to have success when rock n roll happened, appearing on TV and in movies.

Just to get you started

Geordie · by **Geordie** » 2023-08-07 4:29 a.m.

Maisie Ringham - first female principal trombone of a British orchestra.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maisie_Ringham

Vegasbound · by **Vegasbound** » 2023-08-07 4:32 a.m.

[quote="Geordie"]Maisie Ringham - first female principal trombone of a British orchestra.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maisie_Ringham[/quote]

Already on the OP’s list at number 6

Geordie · by **Geordie** » 2023-08-07 4:37 a.m.

[quote="Vegasbound"]<QUOTE author="Geordie" post_id="217141" time="1691396986" user_id="265">
Maisie Ringham - first female principal trombone of a British orchestra.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maisie_Ringham[/quote]

Already on the OP’s list at number 6
</QUOTE>

Ha! Should have read the list first. Will take a look.

officermayo · by **officermayo** » 2023-08-07 4:42 a.m.

Aubrey Logan.

<YOUTUBE id="Okpxg4J4vtk">https://youtu.be/Okpxg4J4vtk</YOUTUBE>

Vegasbound · by **Vegasbound** » 2023-08-07 4:55 a.m.

Mayumi Shimizu -Principal Trombone SWR Symphony Orch

<YOUTUBE id="ONe3qOqu3zM">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONe3qOqu3zM</YOUTUBE>

EriKon · by **EriKon** » 2023-08-07 6:12 a.m.

Shannon Barnett is missing! She has just released a very nice live album, absolutely worth checking out!

afugate · by **afugate** » 2023-08-07 7:51 a.m.

Rita Payes

<YOUTUBE id="UNIt5Bg9YIo">~~[media]~~https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNIt5Bg9YIo</YOUTUBE>

--Andy in OKC

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2023-08-07 8:11 a.m.

Kanda Megumi is also one of the greats. I think she's still in Milwaukee and plays a lot in Tokyo.

Brittany Lasch has been featured a lot at big events recently. She's a really candid presenter at her masterclass and a very good soloist.

Jessica Buzzbee is also worth looking into.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2023-08-07 11:27 a.m.

Laurie Salamando is a player from my home area, went to Eastman for trombone and played I think in all the service bands (Navy, Army, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard). She studied with my teacher from high school.

Julie Josephson got an artist diploma on trombone from New England Conservatory in 1985? and went on to be a freelance performer in NYC.

Shari Norfolk was a Navy musician who went on to teach trombone in a North Carolina college.

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2023-08-07 11:38 a.m.

A while ago I compiled a list to help inspire several middle-school trombonists. There are repeats from what’s listed above. I don’t have any links—I wanted the students to do their own research.

Jazz

Gunhild Carling

Carol Jarvis

Natalie Cressman

Sarah Morrow

Melba Liston

Debra Weiss

Classical

Rebecca Cherian, Pittsburgh SO

Abby Conant, Munich SO and freelance

Monique Buzzarté, NY Freelance

Donna Parkes, Louisville SO

Amanda Stewart, St Louis SO

Vanessa Fralick, Toronto SO

Heather Buchman, freelance and conductor

Lisa Albrecht, freelance in NY

Vivian Lee, OSM

Natalie Mannix, freelance

Betty Glover (retired, Cincinnati)

Dr. Karen Marsten, freelance and Empress Trombone Quartet

Dr. Lori Stuntz, freelance and Empress Trombone Quartet

Shelly Suminski, freelance and Empress Trombone Quartet

Amy Bowers, freelance and Empress Trombone Quartet

Groups

PRISMA Quartet

Bones Apart

DIVA Big Band

Empress Trombone Quartet

Bay Area Women’s Philharmonic

Early music (sacbut)

Susan Addison

Liza Malamut

Tuba

Carol Jantsch, Philadelphia SO

Deanna Swoboda, ASU

Velvet Brown, Penn State Univ

Amy Schumaker Bliss, euphonium

Dr. Gail Robertson, Univ. of Arkansas

Vegasbound · by **Vegasbound** » 2023-08-07 12:01 p.m.

Carol (Jarvis) should be on both lists, not just a “Jazz” player as a freelancer she has played with the Halle, Opera North and most if not of all London orchestra’s.

Hellen Vollum - Principal BBC Symphony Orch

u_2bobone · by **u_2bobone** » 2023-08-07 12:13 p.m.

Just to add some laurels to the kudos : I played recorder and harpsichord duets with Betty Glover [Bass Trombone -Cincinnati Orch. ret.] years ago. She would tour Europe in the summertime as a harpsichordist ! What a talented lady !

CalgaryTbone · by **CalgaryTbone** » 2023-08-07 12:25 p.m.

The list above is a good starting resource, but some of the info is out of date or incomplete:

I only have info on the Classical folks, but:

Rebecca Cherian, Abby Conant and Vivian Lee have all recently retired and Abby was a Professor in Germany for many years after leaving Munich. Lisa Albrecht is 2nd in Rochester for quite awhile now. Donna Parkes has left Louisville (not sure where she's gone). Natalie Mannix and Karen Marsden are both Professors - North Texas and Mt. San Antonio College respectively.

Kathy Macintosh is the 2nd trombone of the Edmonton Symphony and Rachel Thomas holds that chair in the Kitchner Waterloo Symphony, and the Tuba there is Jen Stephen. There was a female Bass Trombonist one the Winnipeg Symphony until fairly recently (sorry. I'm drawing a blank on her name, and she's not listed on the site since she retired - Julie?).

2 great players that I just heard in recitals at the ITF - Katy Jones (Halle ?- Principal) and Louise Pollock (Principal in Gothenburg Opera).

Jim Scott

bwanamfupi · by **bwanamfupi** » 2023-08-07 7:41 p.m.

Also Jennifer Wharton (I don't think I saw her on the lists above).

~~[url]~~https://jenniferwharton.com/

mbarbier · by **mbarbier** » 2023-08-07 10:17 p.m.

Awesome to see the Empress folks pop up- such awesome people! And Monique Buzzarte- she's such a special musician.

Also Julianne Gralle- freelance and studio work in LA.

Lindsay McMurray - freelance and really excellent jazz trombonist in LA. she's in one of the Disneyland Bands.

Kalia Vandever- freelance jazz/commercial trombonist in NYC. Recently put out an incredible solo album and finished a tour with Harry Styles.

Sasha Romero- principal trombonist at the MET.

Ava Ordman, who teaches at MSU and has a really excellent recording of the Donald Web Concerto. Was (is?) In Grand Rapids Symphony and Cabrillo Festival Orchestra.

On the weirder music side of things, Maria Bertel and Amelia Coulter do really amazing work.

musicofnote · 2023-08-08 4:18 a.m.

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MStarke · by **MStarke** » 2023-08-08 6:00 a.m.

She has been mentioned, but when speaking of female trombonists, the story around Abbie Conant at the Munich Phil is certainly essential.

Even Wikipedia has an okay summary of events: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbie_Conant

Geordie · by **Geordie** » 2023-08-08 6:15 a.m.

Both tenor trombonists with the Halle Orchestra are female.

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2023-08-08 7:34 a.m.

I walked into a big band last night and it sounded like Rich Bullock on bass, but no. Leslie Havens. What a great player, 26 years with the Diva Orchestra.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://musiccrossingborders.wordpress. ... ie-havens/">https://musiccrossingborders.wordpress.com/2013/05/03/play-it-forward-leslie-havens/</LINK_TEXT>

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2023-08-08 8:09 a.m.

[quote="baileyman"]I walked into a big band last night and it sounded like Rich Bullock on bass, but no. Leslie Havens. What a great player, 26 years with the Diva Orchestra.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://musiccrossingborders.wordpress. ... ie-havens/">https://musiccrossingborders.wordpress.com/2013/05/03/play-it-forward-leslie-havens/</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]

Leslie is a fantastic bass trombonist. I had the honor to sit next to her in a couple of gigs.

Also should mention Maureen Horgan, who used to be Principal in an orchestra here in New Hampshire but moved somewhere in the South where she has a teaching position. Fantastic tenor trombonist.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2023-08-08 2:19 p.m.

[quote="baileyman"]I walked into a big band last night and it sounded like Rich Bullock on bass, but no. Leslie Havens.[/quote]

You know Rich? He's been a friend of mine since the late '70s, when we both played with the Watrous and Al Hirt bands. Great guy. Was a monster of a bass trombonist back in the day. If Leslie Havens sounds like him, she's got some air, some chops, and some (forgive me) huge balls. :)

pwrjam · by **pwrjam** » 2023-08-08 6:07 p.m.

Since I didn't see her name on here already, one of my favorite Jazz/Creative players as of late has been Ebba Åsman.

<YOUTUBE id="QedrFqebPgY">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/QedrFqebPgY</YOUTUBE>

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2023-08-08 6:42 p.m.

[quote="margdufay01"]...I've always been interested in tracing the history of women trombonists.[/quote]
From a historic standpoint, you might want to look at the All-Girl bands of the WWII era; there was a book written about them a few years ago:

<LINK_TEXT text="https://read.dukeupress.edu/books/book/ ... -the-1940s">https://read.dukeupress.edu/books/book/520/Swing-Shift-All-Girl-Bands-of-the-1940s</LINK_TEXT>

I know there was a "Women's Orchestra of Los Angeles" from the mid-1890's into at least the late 1920's; I'm not sure if other cities had similar institutions. I know the Los Angeles group predated the old Los Angeles Symphony by a few years and the Los Angeles Philharmonic by more than two decades.

While they were often look upon as novelties, the level of musicianship is supposed to have been quite high.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2023-08-08 10:31 p.m.

Talking about women's orchestras. there's Andre Rieu, who fields an orchestra comprised entirely of women; probably mostly for the novelty.

Fidbone · by **Fidbone** » 2023-08-09 2:28 a.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]Talking about women's orchestras. there's Andre Rieu, who fields an orchestra comprised entirely of women; probably mostly for the novelty.[/quote]

Not true, the orchestra is mixed <EMOJI seq="1f644" tseq="1f644">🙄</EMOJI>

ALT · by **ALT** » 2023-08-10 6:49 p.m.

Shannon Barnett!

madelynstoklosa · by **madelynstoklosa** » 2023-08-21 2:03 p.m.

Fellow woman trombonist here! :D

Megumi Kanda is an incredible woman trombonist. She's currently principal trombone of Milwaukee. There is a great article written about her by Douglas Yeo in the January 2021 ITF Journal that goes into detail about her life. I highly recommend checking it out.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.yeodoug.com/articles/Yeo_IT ... ribute.pdf">https://www.yeodoug.com/articles/Yeo_ITAJ_January_2021_Megumi_Kanda_tribute.pdf</LINK_TEXT>

She also has some great recordings on YouTube, as well as three of her own albums.

MS

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2023-08-21 2:21 p.m.

This past spring at ATW, Seraph Brass gave a masterclass of sorts. This is an all-female brass quintet. The trombonist is Victoria Garcia who subs with the Boston Symphony from time to time. I was kind of hoping they'd play more, but they mostly talked about how they got where they were.

madelynstoklosa · by **madelynstoklosa** » 2023-08-21 2:41 p.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]This past spring at ATW, Seraph Brass gave a masterclass of sorts. This is an all-female brass quintet. The trombonist is Victoria Garcia who subs with the Boston Symphony from time to time. I was kind of hoping they'd play more, but they mostly talked about how they got where they were.[/quote]

There is an archive of this masterclass on the ATW Youtube channel. Definitely worth a listen!

<YOUTUBE id="us2OBkJ_HCs">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=us2OBkJ_HCs</YOUTUBE>

They also performed with the US Army Band, premiering Anthony DiLorenzo's "Chimera".

<YOUTUBE id="JTKjIdBYitI">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTKjIdBYitI</YOUTUBE>

Vicki is pretty active on her social media, check her out!

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2023-08-21 4:06 p.m.

Fair to say some progress has been made?

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2023-08-21 7:14 p.m.

While I'm glad for the attention trombonists who happen to be women are getting, I hope that stops. Otherwise, I'll have to start saying things like:

He's pretty good for a man.

Who's a good man trombonist?

Can we get a list of male trombonists?

...and that all-time favorite that we women love to hear...

We've already got one male trombone player, why would we want another?

Elow · by **Elow** » 2023-08-22 8:24 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]I'll have to start saying things like:

He's pretty good for a man.

Who's a good man trombonist?

Can we get a list of male trombonists?

...and that all-time favorite that we women love to hear...

We've already got one male trombone player, why would we want another?[/quote]

No, I dont think you will have to start saying that.. The only thing holding you back from those remarks are yourself, use your better sense.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2023-08-22 11:33 p.m.

That sounds like a really good problem to have being honest.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2023-08-23 12:43 a.m.

I think tbdana’s post might have been tongue in cheek.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2023-08-23 7:01 a.m.

My sarcasm filter doesn’t work after 10PM :lol:

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2023-08-23 1:44 p.m.

Written sarcasm or humor often fall flat on the Internet.

I guess that's why I've gotten in trouble with some of my (intended-to-be) lighthearted posts. :horror:

KWL · by **KWL** » 2023-08-23 5:53 p.m.

[quote="CalgaryTbone"].... Donna Parkes has left Louisville (not sure where she's gone).[/quote]
Donna returned to Australia. Social media posts show she is building a house near Canberra and appears to have been doing some high level subbing.

Missing from the list is another Louisville Orchestra trombonist, Patsy McHugh. Performing in a pre-Internet age, her name pops up most often with the LO recording of Ned Rorem's "Air Music" for trombone and cello with piano, violins and violas.

I had the pleasure of performing and recording with Patsy and Ray Horton (bass trombone) in 1975. If you can find them, check out her playing on the Louisville Orchestra's "First Edition" recordings. She was an excellent first chair for many years.

Pezza · by **Pezza** » 2023-08-23 8:08 p.m.

There are no women trombonists, there are just trombonists.

We are all equal, but bass trombonists are more equal than others!

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2023-08-23 8:46 p.m.

Karna Millen is Principal Trombone of the US Coast Guard Band: <YOUTUBE id="-Gb59Uiqf9c">https://youtu.be/-Gb59Uiqf9c?si=XBRJXO9VAm8GwSRZ</YOUTUBE>

Katie Franke just won an audition yesterday to become the first woman trombonist in the President's Own Marine Band.

Hillary Simms was recently appointed to the American Brass Quintet and will join the faculty of the Juilliard School.

Hana Beloglavec is starting her new job as Assistant Professor of Trombone at Florida State after teaching for the last several years at Louisiana State.

Brittany Lasch - already mentioned - is starting her new job at Indiana University after teaching at Bowling Green State in Ohio for the last several years. Her DMA is from Boston University.

Elisabeth Shafer is starting her new job at The Ohio State University after teaching at the University of Akron and then the University of Memphis. Also a BU DMA. ~~[color=#FF0000]~~Go Terriers!

JoeAumann · by **JoeAumann** » 2023-08-28 10:12 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]Kanda Megumi is also one of the greats. I think she's still in Milwaukee and plays a lot in Tokyo.[/quote]

When you say Kanda Megumi, you mean Megumi Kanda.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2023-08-28 11:01 p.m.

[quote="JoeAumann"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="217155" time="1691410302" user_id="3642">
Kanda Megumi is also one of the greats. I think she's still in Milwaukee and plays a lot in Tokyo.[/quote]

When you say Kanda Megumi, you mean Megumi Kanda.
</QUOTE>

<ATTACHMENT filename="MK210327_720-600x338.png" index="0">~~[attachment=0]~~MK210327_720-600x338.png</ATTACHMENT>

Dang, I must've been reading it wrong.

Neo_Bri · by **Neo_Bri** » 2023-08-29 8:58 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="JoeAumann" post_id="218742" time="1693275138" user_id="3720">

When you say Kanda Megumi, you mean Megumi Kanda.[/quote]

MK210327_720-600x338.png

Dang, I must've been reading it wrong.
</QUOTE>

Definitely does say Kanda Megumi...even if my kanji sucks.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2023-08-29 5:29 p.m.

Honestly, we haven't made any "progress" until women trombonists are just seen as trombonists. Feeling a need to list women trombonists just shows how unequal we are in our minds. The hyper-vigilant identity consciousness perpetuates all the -isms.

Gfunk · by **Gfunk** » 2023-08-29 8:24 p.m.

The goal is to get to a place where women trombonists are just trombonists. But if we don’t accept that we’re not there yet, and acknowledge that these fantastic musicians and teachers are women, we’ll never get there. We have to acknowledge the problem and talk about it right now to get to the place where it becomes irrelevant.

xtine · by **xtine** » 2023-08-30 3:35 a.m.

I love these lists. As a female trombonist, there weren't too many role models when I was growing up, and knowing of Abbie Conant's challenges were tough. But as I've gotten older I've seen more and more filling in the top ranks, breaking barriers and filling seats that have never been held by a woman before! And now as an adult taking lessons I have an excellent professional female teacher, it's very inspiring!

dukesboneman · by **dukesboneman** » 2023-09-04 11:23 a.m.

Janice Robinson

musicofnote · 2023-09-06 9:55 a.m.

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MStarke · by **MStarke** » 2023-09-06 3:28 p.m.

[quote="musicofnote"]<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.swr.de/swr2/musik-klassik/s ... -4068.html">https://www.swr.de/swr2/musik-klassik/symphonieorchester/article-swr-4068.html</LINK_TEXT>

She's been playing solo in the orchestra since 2016, was solo trombonist from 2009 - 2012 in the Bruckner Orchestra, Linz Austria. And has degrees in Physics and Physico-Informatics at the Keio Universität in Tokyo.[/quote]

Mayumi Shimizu is a really great player. I don't really know her, but auditioned for one or two of the same universities at the same day. She was definitely on another level. And the SWR is an extremely good orchestra! There is another female trombonist in the orchestra as well. (The orchestra has been two separate ones until a few years ago, that's why they have so many trombonists)

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2023-09-09 1:56 p.m.

This might be controversial, but I would also add Sasha Romero to this list.

StephenK · by **StephenK** » 2023-09-09 5:51 p.m.

Isobel Daws recently appointed Principal at Luxembourg Philharmonic

~~[url]~~<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.trombone.net/newsitem/isobe ... ipal-job/7">https://www.trombone.net/newsitem/isobel-daws-wins-luxenbourg-principal-job/7</LINK_TEXT>

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2023-09-10 6:30 p.m.

[quote="Kbiggs"]This might be controversial, but I would also add Sasha Romero to this list.[/quote]

Well, she's a woman, so I'm hoping this shouldn't be controversial!

I will add, in terms of well-established players currently active in the early music scene :

Catherine Motuz

Sue Addison

Emily White

Stephanie Dyer

Claire McIntyre

Liza Malamut

DougHulme · by **DougHulme** » 2023-09-11 2:05 p.m.

So I wonder where I should be found on this current theme... as a mere male trombonist but taught by a woman trombonist should this make me better or worse than I am!!! Also married to a woman cornet player... counselling clearly needed... Doug

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2023-09-11 4:10 p.m.

[quote="DougHulme"]So I wonder where I should be found on this current theme... as a mere male trombonist but taught by a woman trombonist should this make me better or worse than I am!!! Also married to a woman cornet player... counselling clearly needed... Doug[/quote]

Gosh Doug - not sure how to counsel you. Do you play extra-sensitively, with a feminine touch? :idk:

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2023-09-12 12:14 a.m.

[quote="Posaunus"]<QUOTE author="DougHulme" post_id="219760" time="1694455500" user_id="3157">
So I wonder where I should be found on this current theme... as a mere male trombonist but taught by a woman trombonist should this make me better or worse than I am!!! Also married to a woman cornet player... counselling clearly needed... Doug[/quote]

Gosh Doug - not sure how to counsel you. Do you play extra-sensitively, with a feminine touch? :idk:
</QUOTE>

Plays in high heels?

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2023-09-12 12:14 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]<QUOTE author="Posaunus" post_id="219774" time="1694463045" user_id="158">

Gosh Doug - not sure how to counsel you. Do you play extra-sensitively, with a feminine touch? :idk:[/quote]

Plays in high heels?
</QUOTE>

Nah. You’re a musician married to another musician, and you’re studying with a teacher. Everything else is distraction.

DougHulme · by **DougHulme** » 2023-09-13 3:22 a.m.

So I wonder where I should be found on this current theme... as a mere male trombonist but taught by a woman trombonist should this make me better or worse than I am!!! Also married to a woman cornet player... counselling clearly needed... Doug

Gosh Doug - not sure how to counsel you. Do you play extra-sensitively, with a feminine touch? :idk:

Plays in high heels?

The secrets out! Please dont tell the rest of the forum :D ... Doug

DougHulme · by **DougHulme** » 2023-09-13 3:26 a.m.

(KBiggs)... Nah. You’re a musician married to another musician, and you’re studying with a teacher. Everything else is distraction.

You are of course quite right (though that still doesent stop the 'banter' between my wife and I after all the poor girl has to play a mere cornet!!).... Doug

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2023-09-13 8:49 a.m.

[quote="DougHulme"]<QUOTE>(KBiggs)... Nah. You’re a musician married to another musician, and you’re studying with a teacher. Everything else is distraction.[/quote]

You are of course quite right (though that still doesent stop the 'banter' between my wife and I after all the poor girl has to play a mere cornet!!).... Doug
</QUOTE>

Just remember: your bass trombone has more brass in it than 3 of her cornets. :cool:

DougHulme · by **DougHulme** » 2023-09-13 9:00 a.m.

Nice one, I will remember that (and use in combat!)... Doug

musicofnote · 2023-12-21 9:37 a.m.

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ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2023-12-21 2:31 p.m.

If this is open to more local/regional candidates ... Becca Clemmons (~~[url]~~https://www.durhamjazzworkshop.org/becca-clemens.html)

MBurner · by **MBurner** » 2023-12-23 5:35 p.m.

Rebecca Patterson- awesome bass trombone player and the bass bone chair at Radio City! Check her out.

RobTheWriter · by **RobTheWriter** » 2023-12-28 4:42 a.m.

Sheila Tracey was a trombonist in the Ivy Benson All Girls Band in the 1950s. She later worked for the BBC and was President of the British Trombone Society. More here. ~~[url]~~https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheila_Tracy

DJC0189 · by **DJC0189** » 2023-12-28 6:30 p.m.

Dr. Jeannie Little - Principal at Bozeman Symphony, prof at Montana State

Lisa Stoneham- Bass Bone at Bozeman Symphony

mgladdish · by **mgladdish** » 2024-01-04 1:03 p.m.

Bones Apart are great:

https://www.youtube.com/@BonesApartTbn4tet

KathleenDuRant · by **KathleenDuRant** » 2024-01-14 6:28 p.m.

This is a great thread and discussion. It is pretty funny that the first entry in the Glisandoo blog says that women were not encouraged to play trombone because the embouchure needed would make you "ugly" and today people pay money for face yoga to learn exercises to keep their face looking young.

Hfan24 · by **Hfan24** » 2024-05-22 10:23 p.m.

Megumi Kanda In MSO is a stellar player

jonathanharker · by **jonathanharker** » 2024-06-21 5:06 a.m.

~~[url=https://janesalmon.info/]~~Jane Salmon teaches and plays in all the things in London. Cited one of her posts for the ~~[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soprano_trombone]~~soprano trombone article.

Ukkis · by **Ukkis** » 2024-07-02 6:40 a.m.

In sweden you have a few i'll list that are off the top of my head (unless someone beat me to it)

Karin Hammar

Mimmi Hammar

Lisa Bodelius

Gunhild Karling

iranzi · 2024-10-14 2:56 p.m.

Melba Liston

Nabou Claerhout

Reut Regev

Kalia Vandever

Sasha Romero

Lis Wessberg

Sarah Gail Brand

Annie Whitehead

Historic article on 19th - early 20th century players https://tinyurl.com/5mrtd55y

<YOUTUBE id="iHCGSbaXMEM">https://youtu.be/iHCGSbaXMEM</YOUTUBE>

<YOUTUBE id="KN1W5EA0Q4k">https://youtu.be/KN1W5EA0Q4k</YOUTUBE>

iranzi · 2024-10-14 3:18 p.m.

[quote="DougHulme"]So I wonder where I should be found on this current theme... as a mere male trombonist but taught by a woman trombonist should this make me better or worse than I am!!! Also married to a woman cornet player... counselling clearly needed... Doug[/quote]

maybe a shout out to your teacher?

[quote="DougHulme"]Nice one, I will remember that (and use in combat!)... Doug[/quote]

good example of bad "banter". relative weights of blunt metal implements???

LetItSlide · by **LetItSlide** » 2024-10-14 7:02 p.m.

The chromosome profile of a player matters not to me.

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2024-10-15 11:48 a.m.

[quote="LetItSlide"]The chromosome profile of a player matters not to me.[/quote]

Until roughly half of professional trombone players are women, it should matter a great deal to us, collectively.

LetItSlide · by **LetItSlide** » 2024-10-15 2:52 p.m.

[quote="LeTromboniste"]<QUOTE author="LetItSlide" post_id="255811" time="1728946928" user_id="15661">
The chromosome profile of a player matters not to me.[/quote]

Until roughly half of professional trombone players are women, it should matter a great deal to us, collectively.
</QUOTE>
So stop playing the trombone and find a woman to replace you in your job, and you'll even it up, if only just a little.

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2024-10-15 3:10 p.m.

[quote="LetItSlide"]<QUOTE author="LeTromboniste" post_id="255852" time="1729007316" user_id="3038">
Until roughly half of professional trombone players are women, it should matter a great deal to us, collectively.[/quote]
So stop playing the trombone and find a woman to replace you in your job, and you'll even it up, if only just a little.
</QUOTE>

Wow. Just wow.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-10-15 3:13 p.m.

[quote="LeTromboniste"]<QUOTE author="LetItSlide" post_id="255811" time="1728946928" user_id="15661">
The chromosome profile of a player matters not to me.[/quote]

Until roughly half of professional trombone players are women, it should matter a great deal to us, collectively.
</QUOTE>

Thank you.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-10-15 3:15 p.m.

[quote="LetItSlide"]<QUOTE author="LeTromboniste" post_id="255852" time="1729007316" user_id="3038">

Until roughly half of professional trombone players are women, it should matter a great deal to us, collectively.[/quote]
So stop playing the trombone and find a woman to replace you in your job, and you'll even it up, if only just a little.
</QUOTE>

Or, with that attitude, maybe we should just make a concerted effort to take your work away from you? Please list the people you play for, and we'll see if we can get a woman in there instead of you.

Unless you wouldn't like that kind of piss poor attitude.

iranzi · 2024-10-15 4:06 p.m.

Some more fantastic women trombonists:

Monique Buzzarté

Sophie Cooper

Gina Benalcázar López

<BANDCAMP track_id="852404561"><LINK_TEXT text="https://kristinnorderval.bandcamp.com/t ... older-duet">https://kristinnorderval.bandcamp.com/track/gasholder-duet</LINK_TEXT></BANDCAMP>

https://tinyurl.com/3zrawkcm

from that wiki link, about Monique Buzzarté:

[…] was a key part of an international protest on behalf of the International Alliance for Women in Music (IAWM) against discrimination based on gender by the Vienna Philharmonic. The protests lead to the admission of women as members of the Vienna Philharmonic in 1997.[…]

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2024-10-15 4:09 p.m.

Until the underlying issue/cultural norm/whatever you want to call it regarding how child care is looked at, conducted, and dealt with in nearly every society is solved, it is unlikely that we will see a 50/50 gender split in many sectors, especially low paying fields like the arts.

I'm just pointing out an issue, not any belief about it. The perception or truth about affordable child care being low quality, the connotations around using it, feelings of guilt around utilizing it, social pressure. It's a huge wall. That's obviously just for women who have children, but that will skew the numbers for any profession, especially a low paying one.

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2024-10-15 5:45 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]Until the underlying issue/cultural norm/whatever you want to call it regarding how child care is looked at, conducted, and dealt with in nearly every society is solved, it is unlikely that we will see a 50/50 gender split in many sectors, especially low paying fields like the arts.

I'm just pointing out an issue, not any belief about it. The perception or truth about affordable child care being low quality, the connotations around using it, feelings of guilt around utilizing it, social pressure. It's a huge wall. That's obviously just for women who have children, but that will skew the numbers for any profession, especially a low paying one.[/quote]

Yes absolutely, it's a multi-faceted issue indeed, and yes, we could do all the work we want and not reach 50/50 because there are many causes including widespread societal ones (which we should also work to fix).

I would just add that that's not a reason not to question what problems actually are within our small field and whether we are ourselves part of the problem. If factors outside of the field were the only reasons, we'd see roughly the same gender ratio across classical music. The fact is, the trombone is among the instruments with the most abysmal gender gaps, and there are reasons inherent to the trombone world why that is.

The dominant culture in the trombone world is, overall, quite deeply mysoginistic and filled with traits of toxic masculinity, and that's reflected at every level, social, economic and yes, also artistic/aesthetic. It's important to start saying it out loud.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2024-10-15 6:05 p.m.

[quote="LeTromboniste"]

Yes absolutely, it's a multi-faceted issue indeed, and yes, we could do all the work we want and not reach 50/50 because there are many causes including widespread societal ones (which we should also work to fix).

I would just add that that's not a reason not to question what problems actually are within our small field and whether we are ourselves part of the problem. If factors outside of the field were the only reasons, we'd see roughly the same gender ratio across classical music. The fact is, the trombone is among the instruments with the most abysmal gender gaps, and there are reasons inherent to the trombone world why that is.

The dominant culture in the trombone world is, overall, quite deeply mysoginistic and filled with traits of toxic masculinity, and that's reflected at every level, social, economic and yes, also artistic/aesthetic. It's important to start saying it out loud.[/quote]

You and I are in agreement 100%, then.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2024-10-15 6:20 p.m.

“The dominant culture in the trombone world is, overall, quite deeply mysoginistic and filled with traits of toxic masculinity, and that's reflected at every level, social, economic and yes, also artistic/aesthetic. It's important to start saying it out loud.”

Misogynistic.

I find this very hard to believe. Maybe in Munich in the 70s and Vienna prior to the late 90s. But now? Pockets maybe but the “dominant culture”. I’m skeptical.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2024-10-15 6:31 p.m.

I think some of this dates from when we were in school. Lugging around an instrument case marks you as a "band nerd" and many girls want to avoid this stigma, so they take up the flute; which can be hidden in a large handbag.

I've met and played with many female trombone players of all stripes from beginners to really fine players. Being female doesn't preclude anyone from playing trombone. It's just cultural.

iranzi · 2024-10-15 6:43 p.m.

[quote="LeTromboniste"]It's important to start saying it out loud.[/quote]
This!!!!

[quote="harrisonreed"][...] the underlying issue [...] affordable child care being low quality, the connotations around using it, feelings of guilt around utilizing it, social pressure [...][/quote]

If men started giving birth instead of women, any such issues would very likely turn out to be easily solvable. Could finally fix this problem for good… :clever:

mbarbier · by **mbarbier** » 2024-10-15 6:48 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]“The dominant culture in the trombone world is, overall, quite deeply mysoginistic and filled with traits of toxic masculinity, and that's reflected at every level, social, economic and yes, also artistic/aesthetic. It's important to start saying it out loud.”

Misogynistic.

I find this very hard to believe. Maybe in Munich in the 70s and Vienna prior to the late 90s. But now? Pockets maybe but the “dominant culture”. I’m skeptical.[/quote]

As a non binary trombonist who teaches at a college where the vast majority of my students are queer and not male, they'd all disagree with you based on experiences regularly brought to lessons from the gigs they play (as well as my own experiences). I'd definitely agree that it's better than Munich in the 70's but the intense bro culture in the brass world is unfortunately heavily dominant.

iranzi · 2024-10-15 6:53 p.m.

[deleted]

iranzi · 2024-10-15 7:05 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"][...] Maybe in Munich in the 70s and Vienna prior to the late 90s. But now? [...][/quote]

Munich in the '70s was the setting of a lot of R.W. Fassbinder's films, where he had the inner workings of misogyny sliced, diced, and flung unsparingly at the viewer. An updated take on some of the more cruel classic Hollywood melodramas (also: fun and witty and beautiful).

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2024-10-15 7:43 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]

Misogynistic.

I find this very hard to believe. Maybe in Munich in the 70s and Vienna prior to the late 90s. But now? Pockets maybe but the “dominant culture”. I’m skeptical.[/quote]

Absolutely 100%. If the dominant trombone culture is not misogynistic, then where exactly are all the women in the trombone world? Why is it men working everywhere all the time? Why is it that the man at the top of the food chain of this field can openly support a known abuser of women while failing to support his own former student as she was being pressured to shut up about a sexual assault on a colleague, and yet save for a handful of people, all we hear in the trombone world is crickets, crickets, crickets?

I won't even go into how the generally accepted concept of what is "good" trombone playing (especially in the orchestral world) absolutely reeks of machism.

Socially, the bro culture is very much a thing, and let's face it we've all at one point or another participated in it. It's systemic.

Yes, it's better than it was, on some fronts. It's still light-years away from being good.

iranzi · 2024-10-16 8:26 a.m.

[quote="LeTromboniste"][...] the food chain of this field [...][/quote]
great line!

it’s been kicking about in my head all evening.

those consonants singing. train wheel rhythms
<ATTACHMENT filename="IMG_1145.jpeg" index="0">~~[attachment=0]~~IMG_1145.jpeg</ATTACHMENT>

iranzi · 2024-10-16 9:44 a.m.

Carol Jarvis

Hailey Brinnel

Jennifer Wharton (bass trombone)

Allison Martin

Audrey Ochoa

Haruka Kikuchi

Alba Pujals

Agnes Darelid

Itsumi Komano

Naomi Moon Siegel

<BANDCAMP track_id="2628139075">https://caroljarvis.bandcamp.com/track/carols-tune</BANDCAMP>

<BANDCAMP track_id="48906386"><LINK_TEXT text="https://jenniferwharton.bandcamp.com/tr ... rkest-hour">https://jenniferwharton.bandcamp.com/track/in-our-darkest-hour</LINK_TEXT></BANDCAMP>

<BANDCAMP track_id="2769020902"><LINK_TEXT text="https://allisonmartin.bandcamp.com/trac ... io-odyssey">https://allisonmartin.bandcamp.com/track/steam-gardens-from-super-mario-odyssey</LINK_TEXT></BANDCAMP>

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2024-10-16 12:07 p.m.

Another one to add to the list: Tiffany Johns. She’s here on TromboneChat under the name finetales. Some of her output is on youtube like this most recent multitrack extravaganza:

<YOUTUBE list="PLxkXjO4dVudsXkdqAErhXOl0cueKJymqm"><LINK_TEXT text="https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... 0cueKJymqm">https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLxkXjO4dVudsXkdqAErhXOl0cueKJymqm</LINK_TEXT></YOUTUBE>

sf105 · by **sf105** » 2024-10-16 3:05 p.m.

[quote="Kbiggs"]Another one to add to the list: Tiffany Johns. She’s here on TromboneChat under the name finetales. Some of her output is on youtube like this most recent multitrack extravaganza:[/quote]

Holy Cow Finetales! How do you find the time to play like that and still post here?

S

iranzi · by **iranzi** » 2024-10-17 4:01 a.m.

[quote="sf105"]<QUOTE author="Kbiggs" post_id="255945" time="1729094870" user_id="172">
Another one to add to the list: Tiffany Johns. She’s here on TromboneChat under the name finetales. Some of her output is on youtube like this most recent multitrack extravaganza:[/quote]

Holy Cow Finetales! How do you find the time to play like that and still post here?

S
</QUOTE>

Really mindblowing! And the instrumentation is just... i dont know, puts a big grin on my face. I want all those exotic looking horns!!!

There are several women tombonists on this forum, i think

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2024-10-17 11:32 a.m.

For what it's worth, disparities are not necessarily causally linked to discrimination. The common, extreme examples here are the very low prevalence (1-5%) of representation in oil fields and waste management positions, which tend to be because only men, and a pretty unique subset of men, want to do those types of jobs.

Clearly, this is not the case in the music world. But, I do not think that misogyny is the exclusive explanation for why, specifically, few trombonists are women. After all, the organizations that have been mentioned (NYP, Cleveland, etc.) have women in other positions and should be exposed to the same level of discrimination. If misogyny were the explanation for 100% of the discrepancy, you would expect to see totally homogenous male representation uniformly across all instruments, which is clearly not the case.

I think a much better goal is to eliminate the discrimination, harassment, and other toxic elements of culture rather than to aim for an even distribution of sex representation of instruments. First, if the goal of evening out the ratio is achieved, but the culture is not addressed, then what has essentially been done is to increase the total amount of discriminatory behavior. Second, this naturally allows for some expected, reasonable divergence of preference by removing the roadblocks that are suppressing representation. I would be surprised if 50% is the actual, natural ratio for trombone, just as I would be surprised if the natural ratio for harp players was 50%.

Don't get me wrong. I would love for there to be more women in the low brass world and on the jazz scene. But I don't think that in a world that somehow had zero discrimination, that the ratio would peak at more than 10%.

iranzi · 2024-10-17 11:41 a.m.

[quote="Matt K"][...] natural [...][/quote]

How is ANYTHING "natural"?

I'd let women decide what's good or not on this issue

~~[size=85]~~P.S. even that sentence is misogynist! no running away from it: it's built into the language.

(going to shut up about it now)

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-10-17 12:21 p.m.

[quote="Matt K"]For what it's worth, disparities are not necessarily causally linked to discrimination. The common, extreme examples here are the very low prevalence (1-5%) of representation in oil fields and waste management positions, which tend to be because only men, and a pretty unique subset of men, want to do those types of jobs.

Clearly, this is not the case in the music world. But, I do not think that misogyny is the exclusive explanation for why, specifically, few trombonists are women. After all, the organizations that have been mentioned (NYP, Cleveland, etc.) have women in other positions and should be exposed to the same level of discrimination. If misogyny were the explanation for 100% of the discrepancy, you would expect to see totally homogenous male representation uniformly across all instruments, which is clearly not the case.

I think a much better goal is to eliminate the discrimination, harassment, and other toxic elements of culture rather than to aim for an even distribution of sex representation of instruments. First, if the goal of evening out the ratio is achieved, but the culture is not addressed, then what has essentially been done is to increase the total amount of discriminatory behavior. Second, this naturally allows for some expected, reasonable divergence of preference by removing the roadblocks that are suppressing representation. I would be surprised if 50% is the actual, natural ratio for trombone, just as I would be surprised if the natural ratio for harp players was 50%.

Don't get me wrong. I would love for there to be more women in the low brass world and on the jazz scene. But I don't think that in a world that somehow had zero discrimination, that the ratio would peak at more than 10%.[/quote]

I think you make an awful lot of false assumptions in this post. There aren't male instruments and female instruments that the sexes "naturally" gravitate towards. But there are certainly human attitudes about those instruments that affect who plays them and who gets jobs. Brass instruments are not inherently masculine instruments, but they are seen by men as masculine instruments. It's the attitudes, not the instruments, that are masculine or feminine. Human beings don't naturally gravitate toward one instrument or another in the absence of cultural labeling and saturating the environment with artificial notions.

If you were a woman in the professional trombone world, I dare say you'd have a very different perspective and experience that would give you a completely different opinion.

tbdana · 2024-10-17 12:24 p.m.

I'm thankful that there are more and more women playing trombone. Back in the day it was almost unheard of.

iranzi · 2024-10-17 12:35 p.m.

Dana Douglas!

This sounds amazing!

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-10-17 1:24 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]Brass instruments are not inherently masculine instruments, but they are seen by men as masculine instruments. It's the attitudes, not the instruments, that are masculine or feminine. Human beings don't naturally gravitate toward one instrument or another in the absence of cultural labeling and saturating the environment with artificial notions.[/quote]
Now I'm mulling over what made me gravitate towards the flute when I was 18. I thought it was to provide a good double in the big band I was playing in, and sit in the front row of the pep band (directly behind the transparent shield) during hockey games -- and so avoiding flying pucks. But now I have to worry about deeper and hidden causes and motives -- particularly since it was in an environment where the male/female ratio was 32/1. Very vexing. Possibly disturbing. What was I really thinking? What was I feeling?

Otherwise, 10% does seem pretty low. But I think there's no reasonable evidence for such a prediction one way or the other -- and I'd have to think really hard to develop a predictive model of any sort for that. It would be very complicated and subject to any number of criticisms of underlying assumptions no matter what the results were. As an aside, while I was the only male flute player in a couple of college bands/orchestras, our concert/pep/marching band had a female Sousaphone player (she graduated with a degree in Chemical Engineering). Decades later I would abandon woodwinds and take up the tuba. Now I have to search for a deeper meaning in that as well.

tbdana · 2024-10-17 1:39 p.m.

Somehow, just about all my favorite flute players are men. Favorite chefs, too.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2024-10-17 1:54 p.m.

[quote="iranzi"]<QUOTE author="Matt K" post_id="256030" time="1729179159" user_id="48">
[...] natural [...][/quote]

how is anything "natural"?

i'd let women decide what's good or not on this issue

p.s. even that sentence is mysogynistic. it's built into the language.

i'm gonna shut up about it now
</QUOTE>

How am I showing hatred towards women by suggesting that "they" have the autonomy to decide if they do or do not want to play a low brass instrument?

There aren't male instruments and female instruments that the sexes "naturally" gravitate towards. There are certainly human attitudes about those instruments that affect who plays them and who gets jobs. Brass instruments are not inherently masculine instruments, but they are seen by men as masculine instruments. It's the attitudes, not the instruments, that are masculine or feminine.

Up to this point, I don't think anything I said is incompatible with this viewpoint.

Human beings don't naturally gravitate toward one instrument or another in the absence of cultural labeling and saturating the environment with artificial notions.

I disagree, but it's almost certainly irrelevant whether I'm right, you're right, or we're both wrong by X%. In other words, the goal shouldn't be an equal ratio of sexes, the goal should be to allow anyone to play low brass unencumbered by discrimination.

If you were a woman in the professional trombone world, I dare say you'd have a very different perspective and experience that would give you a completely different opinion.

How so?

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-10-17 2:13 p.m.

[quote="Matt K"]<QUOTE>
If you were a woman in the professional trombone world, I dare say you'd have a very different perspective and experience that would give you a completely different opinion.[/quote]

How so?
</QUOTE>

Oh, so many ways, but I suspect you'll discount them.

Exclusion is real. You're not "one of the guys," and the group aspect is a real thing with real consequences, particularly in getting hired. There is a general assumption when encountering women playing trombone that they're not good, before ever hearing a note. In fact, men quite often express shock and surprise when discovering that a woman plays well, and there is still a tendency to discount it. That's a real and substantial problem. There is a general belief that women can't play as aggressively or as strongly as men routinely do. Women are still perceived as a novelty in trombones, and I've actually had a contractor say, "We already have a woman trombone player, why would we want two?"

Just yesterday in Tractor Supply I ran into an old L.A. studio player friend, Marni Johnson, a French horn player who broke into the studios in the 1970s. We stood and chatted about the good ol' days, but so many of the stories were about being the only woman in the section, about skepticism about women's playing ability, about being last hired and first fired, and about being ignored and excluded even sitting in the middle of the section.

There is no question that the culture is better today than it was 50 years ago, but we still have a very long way to go. Not even because men are overtly discriminatory, but mostly because so many men are simply blind to the disparity, in the same way the goldfish cannot see the water it is swimming in.

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-10-17 2:57 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]Just yesterday in Tractor Supply I ran into an old L.A. studio player friend, ...[/quote]

Wait! A woman in TRACTOR SUPPLY? What's up with THAT? Uh, hold on ... my wife's just coming in from mowing our back acreage with the tractor. (I'm not making that up. :lol: ) I need to be sure she puts the battery on charger. Our gender-defined roles here are that she operates the machinery and I repair and maintain it. :roll:

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2024-10-17 4:30 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]<QUOTE author="Matt K" post_id="256050" time="1729187698" user_id="48">

How so?[/quote]

Oh, so many ways, but I suspect you'll discount them.

</QUOTE>

My perspective is that we need to end discrimination, harassment, and exclusionary practices. Do you think that if I were a woman that I would want to be more discriminatory?

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-10-17 4:36 p.m.

Sometimes a slightly different perspective can be useful. Here's an interesting one from an area where over 90% of the musicians are women: <LINK_TEXT text="https://harpcolumn.com/forums/topic/rea ... p-playing/">https://harpcolumn.com/forums/topic/reasons-for-mysterious-gender-imbalance-in-harp-playing/</LINK_TEXT>

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2024-10-17 5:10 p.m.

[quote="Matt K"]But, I do not think that misogyny is the exclusive explanation for why, specifically, few trombonists are women. After all, the organizations that have been mentioned (NYP, Cleveland, etc.) have women in other positions and should be exposed to the same level of discrimination. If misogyny were the explanation for 100% of the discrepancy, you would expect to see totally homogenous male representation uniformly across all instruments, which is clearly not the case.[/quote]

But that is precisely the point! The discrepancy in representation between instruments shows that beyond the general societal mysoginy and discrimination, and beyond discriminatory hiring practice specific to individual institutions, there are then further cultural problems that are specifically more pronounced in the trumpet and low brass world than in some other instruments. In other words, nobody is surprised that there are no women brass players at the Vienna philharmonic, because that orchestra essentially doesn't hire women across the board. But you look at orchestras that do hire women, and for some instruments at nearly 50/50 ratios, and you still will find mostly all-male trumpet and low brass sections.

And no, it's not because there are fewer female students to start with or that women are somehow less drawn to brass instruments at first. They just get gradually pushed out between elementary school and grad school because they never fit in in the bro culture, are being told in masterclasses that they need to "play more like a man", are overall not being asked as much for projects and therefore denied the important learning and networking opportunities needed to build up the momentum and start a career, and just generally get discriminated against constantly in a myriad of small and not-so-small ways on top of the discrimination and obstacles that women generally face anyway. Then the few who remain at the end have an even harder time at the already very difficult task of breaking through and/or winning auditions (when they don't actually win auditions and then get sexually harrased or assaulted by colleagues and denied tenure because of it while their mentors and colleagues sit back and deny them support, in the most extreme cases...).

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-10-17 5:34 p.m.

[quote="LeTromboniste"]The discrepancy in representation between instruments shows that beyond the general societal mysoginy and discrimination, and beyond discriminatory hiring practice specific to individual institutions, there are then further cultural problems that are specifically more pronounced in the trumpet and low brass world than in some other instruments.[/quote]
This is not the sort of account that can be reached by means of the lumens naturalis or "clear light of reason." It takes a bit more (with some degree of complexity) to establish with any objective confidence.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-10-17 6:20 p.m.

[quote="LeTromboniste"]But that is precisely the point! The discrepancy in representation between instruments shows that beyond the general societal mysoginy and discrimination, and beyond discriminatory hiring practice specific to individual institutions, there are then further cultural problems that are specifically more pronounced in the trumpet and low brass world than in some other instruments. In other words, nobody is surprised that there are no women brass players at the Vienna philharmonic, because that orchestra essentially doesn't hire women across the board. But you look at orchestras that do hire women, and for some instruments at nearly 50/50 ratios, and you still will find mostly all-male trumpet and low brass sections.

And no, it's not because there are fewer female students to start with or that women are somehow less drawn to brass instruments at first. They just get gradually pushed out between elementary school and grad school because they never fit in in the bro culture, are being told in masterclasses that they need to "play more like a man", are overall not being asked as much for projects and therefore denied the important learning and networking opportunities needed to build up the momentum and start a career, and just generally get discriminated against constantly in a myriad of small and not-so-small ways on top of the discrimination and obstacles that women generally face anyway. Then the few who remain at the end have an even harder time at the already very difficult task of breaking through and/or winning auditions (when they don't actually win auditions and then get sexually harrased or assaulted by colleagues and denied tenure because of it while their mentors and colleagues sit back and deny them support, in the most extreme cases...).[/quote]

iranzi · 2024-10-17 9:03 p.m.

[quote="Matt K"]<QUOTE>
If you were a woman in the professional trombone world, I dare say you'd have a very different perspective and experience that would give you a completely different opinion.[/quote]

How so?
</QUOTE>

that's a tough one. one would have to spend some time making a living inside professional trombone world disguised as a woman.

But mainly, i try to offer respect to what the people on the receiving end are saying.

[quote="Matt K"]How am I showing hatred towards women by suggesting that "they" have the autonomy to decide if they do or do not want to play a low brass instrument?[/quote]

Not you, i meant my own sentence: I inadvertently used an expression i shouldn't have.

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2024-10-18 2:47 a.m.

[quote="ghmerrill"]<QUOTE author="LeTromboniste" post_id="256083" time="1729199401" user_id="3038">
The discrepancy in representation between instruments shows that beyond the general societal mysoginy and discrimination, and beyond discriminatory hiring practice specific to individual institutions, there are then further cultural problems that are specifically more pronounced in the trumpet and low brass world than in some other instruments.[/quote]
This is not the sort of account that can be reached by means of the lumens naturalis or "clear light of reason." It takes a bit more (with some degree of complexity) to establish with any objective confidence.
</QUOTE>

Ok then, here's something. People who we know for fact are being marginalised and discriminated against in society in general are telling us they face even more marginalization in this field, and they'll describe all kinds of ways in which its happening. Believe them. Just believe them, it's that simple. If you're going to choose not to believe them, then maybe ask yourself if you're not maybe a part of the problem. Maybe ask yourself why you are not seeing the problem that everyone affected says there is.

And then if you still choose not to believe them, and choose to believe that the situation is not actually what the very people who are living that situation are telling us it is, then please offer your explanation for why women, and generally people who are not straight cis men, are essentially absent from the orchestral world, yet they are somehow way more represented in trombone scenes where the macho attitude and bro culture is less present, more represented in the student bodies of conservatories and universities, more represented among amateur players. Why are they absent in the orchestral world when women who play other instruments are not absent to the same degree. Why they are systematically being cut in preliminary and first rounds of competition and we see all-male or almost all-male finalist pools even when the ratio is close to 50/50 in applicants or first round participants. And why they'll all tell you stories about countless ways in which they felt marginalized. Please offer your alternative reasons for why all of that is happening, if it's not actually because marginalization is truly happening.

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2024-10-18 3:32 a.m.

[quote="ghmerrill"]<QUOTE author="LeTromboniste" post_id="256083" time="1729199401" user_id="3038">
The discrepancy in representation between instruments shows that beyond the general societal mysoginy and discrimination, and beyond discriminatory hiring practice specific to individual institutions, there are then further cultural problems that are specifically more pronounced in the trumpet and low brass world than in some other instruments.[/quote]
This is not the sort of account that can be reached by means of the lumens naturalis or "clear light of reason." It takes a bit more (with some degree of complexity) to establish with any objective confidence.
</QUOTE>

Also, not for nothing, adopting a posture of higher rational detachment and objectivity, implying irrationality in issues being raised with the status quo, is literally one of the most classic tropes of how the perspectives of marginalised people are silenced.

iranzi · 2024-10-18 4:12 a.m.

deleted

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2024-10-18 8:15 a.m.

[quote="LeTromboniste"]And no, it's not because there are fewer female students to start with or that women are somehow less drawn to brass instruments at first. They just get gradually pushed out between elementary school and grad school because they never fit in in the bro culture, are being told in masterclasses that they need to "play more like a man", are overall not being asked as much for projects and therefore denied the important learning and networking opportunities needed to build up the momentum and start a career, and just generally get discriminated against constantly in a myriad of small and not-so-small ways on top of the discrimination and obstacles that women generally face anyway. Then the few who remain at the end have an even harder time at the already very difficult task of breaking through and/or winning auditions (when they don't actually win auditions and then get sexually harrased or assaulted by colleagues and denied tenure because of it while their mentors and colleagues sit back and deny them support, in the most extreme cases...).[/quote]

I don't deny any of those. I am merely saying this is not exclusively the cause, and whether the "natural" rate is 99%, 50%, or 10% is irrelevant if those factors go away, and I would very much like for all of those factors disappear forever.

If trombone playing were the next Stanley Cup fad of middle-aged soccer moms and I were among the 1% of men who played trombone, I would be ecstatic.

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-10-18 10:28 a.m.

[quote="LeTromboniste"]Ok then, here's something. People who we know for fact are being marginalised and discriminated against in society in general are telling us they face even more marginalization in this field, and they'll describe all kinds of ways in which its happening.[/quote]
Um, yes. This is how science works. You start from the phenomena and then attempt to find generalizations and theories that explain the phenomena. Then you thoroughly test those theories, including testing them against alternative theories. All of this requires careful and difficult work so that you don't end up with bogus theories just because they fit what you might want to believe or because you've used imprecise data or unreliable inferential methods. Leaping to jargon-laden generalizations expressed in one or two sentences does not further our understanding of the phenomena or their explanation or finding a solution to a problem that everyone may agree exists.

You can't make this up (or at least I'm not), but ... As I was typing the above, my wife came into our home office and said (exact quote) "Well, I'll tell you, women are a lot different from men. That's something I've learned in life. That's all I've got to say." Then she turned and exited. :lol:

This was not in any particular context, and she's not remotely aware that I'm participating in this thread or anything like it. This is a very accomplished and successful woman with a Ph.D., prior careers in both academia and business/industry (having taught medical ethics in a medical school and later moved on to developing and managing documentation and user interface departments in industry), and a history of managing female-dominated departments in business. She now devotes volunteer time to teaching English to mixed male/female classes of immigrants. She's encountered her share of sex discrimination. Having been married for almost 50 years and having a similarly accomplished and experienced daughter now in her 40s, I have to agree. Sex/gender-based differences exist, sometimes the differences are related to social phenomena that we observe. Determining the details of that is not a matter of just "looking and seeing" in some immediate way. Even Wittgenstein knew that.

Believe them. Just believe them, it's that simple.

...

... posture of higher rational detachment and objectivity, implying irrationality in issues being raised with the status quo, is literally one of the most classic tropes of how the perspectives of marginalised people are silenced.

You think I don't believe them? Just because I don't want to fall for some abbreviated jargon-laden blather that doesn't advance our understanding of anything, and obfuscates the real problem through its unintelligible simplicity? Real problems require real solutions. You can't jargon your way out of them.

iranzi · 2024-10-18 1:24 p.m.

Emily White - mentioned already in this thread by LeTromboniste. Then mbarbier brought her to my attention: viewtopic.php?p=256262#p256262.

<YOUTUBE id="oyzLWj0ATdw">https://youtu.be/oyzLWj0ATdw</YOUTUBE>

<YOUTUBE id="MSCXuk_qb_8">https://youtu.be/MSCXuk_qb_8</YOUTUBE>

so interesting that the sackbut bell shape is so similar to various non-western metal lip-reed instruments...

iranzi · 2024-10-19 8:01 p.m.

that 2d piece, the solo — i think i can just about make it work on my trombone too… super excited to give it a go! (my ears are not "in tune" to start with but i'm hearing some notes in this piece are not where the'd normally be — that big-room reverb helps too. don't know what it is, a just intonation perhaps? )

Will post a recording when it's done, not in this thread of course, somewheres else (unless cold feet... :shuffle: )

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2024-10-19 8:31 p.m.

[quote="iranzi"]Emily White - mentioned already in this thread by LeTromboniste (who else?).[/quote]

Nice. Musical.

iranzi · 2024-10-28 7:33 p.m.

[quote="iranzi"]Dana Douglas!

This sounds amazing![/quote]

I’m officially on holiday (half term break), so spent the whole day trawling through jazz trombone recordings, trying to make a representative list of my ideal trombone sound/style. To get an idea of a direction for myself...

Bothered me that the tracks i chose were all pre-1980.

~~[size=90]~~i don’t really believe in jazz as a living tradition after that date (except for those musicians who matured in an earlier jazz milieu and carried on. many still do. Or those who learned from & worked with them. I see them as survivors of a great vanishing civilization).

But I realise now (and it's obvious) — this doesn’t mean that younger musicians stopped loving it and pursuing it and achieving greatness. Jazz survives, just in a different guise. It's a completely different field with different learning and performing institutions. But the players are what makes the whole thing worthwhile. Just as it ever was.

So after listening many times to a shortlist of all my bestest best from the yesteryear, i played 'Body And Soul' by Dana Douglas, just to get a bit of perspective. Immediately became obvious to me that if jazz was still alive and well (the way it once was, as i heard told), with a player like that it would've been a much greater place — i'm sure of this now; and this thread is further proof: with all the amazing women jazz trombonists currently working, playing...

The "good old days" weren't all that fantastic, even in jazz history. That was my main takeaway from this whole exercise. (and the present day in jazz history — somebody better positioned than me could perhaps give it a fair assesment)

all of this may be useless to many readers: revisionist history and private epiphany — way too subjective, i realise that.

my problem is all my trombone schooling comes from recordings, not from hearing it up close. Need to fix this asap

iranzi · 2024-11-05 2:17 p.m.

Melba Liston 'My Reverie'

Quincy Jones Band, Switzerland, 1960

<YOUTUBE id="2vVMySpHJzI" t="3885">https://youtu.be/2vVMySpHJzI?t=3885</YOUTUBE>

microphone levels seem overloaded a bit. who can tell what mouthpiece she's using? or which King trombone?

this is a great video- two concerts back to back

(just in case, this swiss version of 'My Reverie' from 1:04:45)

Really amazing that there are TWO women in the band: Melba Liston and pianist Patricia Bown! Highly irregular...

And before Prince* started doing the same, anybody else employed women in popular music in such roles?

~~[size=85]~~also on albums "The Quintessence" and "The Birth Of A Band" (1959-1961)

RIP Quincy Jones

<ATTACHMENT filename="PB.jpg" index="0">~~[attachment=0]~~PB.jpg</ATTACHMENT>
________

thank you A.B. for the reminder

StephenK · by **StephenK** » 2024-11-06 1:21 a.m.

Emily White - mentioned already in this thread by LeTromboniste. Then mbarbier brought her to my attention

She did a recital and workshop on sackbut last week at the BTS festival at the Royal Birmingham Conservatoire. Two very modern pieces, one a long piece employing extended techniques. She was amazing!

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2024-11-06 1:49 a.m.

[quote="iranzi"]Melba Liston 'My Reverie'

Quincy Jones Band, Switzerland, 1960

Who can tell what mouthpiece she's using? or which King trombone?[/quote]

King 2B trombone; King M21 mouthpiece. All factory stock in 1960.

Perhaps even with a coffin case.

RIP Quincy Jones

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2024-11-06 3:01 a.m.

[quote="Posaunus"]<QUOTE author="iranzi" post_id="257764" time="1730834256" user_id="17598">
Melba Liston 'My Reverie'

Quincy Jones Band, Switzerland, 1960

Who can tell what mouthpiece she's using? or which King trombone?[/quote]

King 2B trombone; King M21 mouthpiece. All factory stock in 1960.

Perhaps even with a coffin case.

RIP Quincy Jones
</QUOTE>

Not a King M21. I have a mouthpiece identical to what she's using, but I don't know what it is, it has no maker's name or number but it does have decorative knurling.

iranzi · 2024-11-06 8:46 a.m.

[quote="StephenK"]<QUOTE>Emily White - mentioned already in this thread by LeTromboniste. Then mbarbier brought her to my attention[/quote]
She did a recital and workshop on sackbut last week at the BTS festival at the Royal Birmingham Conservatoire. Two very modern pieces, one a long piece employing extended techniques. She was amazing!
</QUOTE>
I'd have loved to be there! Where do you find advance info about an event like this?

[quote="Doug Elliott"]<QUOTE author="Posaunus" post_id="257824" time="1730875769" user_id="158">

King 2B trombone; King M21 mouthpiece. All factory stock in 1960.

Perhaps even with a coffin case.

RIP Quincy Jones[/quote]

Not a King M21. I have a mouthpiece identical to what she's using, but I don't know what it is, it has no maker's name or number but it does have decorative knurling.
</QUOTE>
guys & gals you are really amazing on here! ~~[size=85]~~(forgive this spontaneous outburst)

StephenK · by **StephenK** » 2024-11-06 12:46 p.m.

techniques. She was amazing!

I'd have loved to be there! Where do you find advance info about an event like this

Simple answer: join BTS. They also post in FB etc, but not everyone chooses that. The 2 day festival is biannual, and my first time. But was a great event. But there are other events, eg a play day last week in central London.

You don't have to be a member to go to events.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2024-11-06 6:56 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]<QUOTE author="Posaunus" post_id="257824" time="1730875769" user_id="158">
King 2B trombone; King M21 mouthpiece. All factory stock in 1960.

Perhaps even with a coffin case.[/quote]

Not a King M21. I have a mouthpiece identical to what she's using, but I don't know what it is, it has no maker's name or number but it does have decorative knurling.
</QUOTE>

Here's a photo of my King M21 mouthpiece, that came with my 1958 King 2B.

Looks similar to Melba's (grooved rim), but perhaps the external flare on hers is more abrupt.

iranzi · by **iranzi** » 2024-11-09 9:18 p.m.

Shannon Barnett 'Hype'

<BANDCAMP track_id="1938811838">https://shannonbarnett.bandcamp.com/track/hype</BANDCAMP>

iranzi · by **iranzi** » 2024-11-09 9:30 p.m.

Christiane Bopp 'Two Days Before'

on Jean Lapouge album "Des enfants"

<BANDCAMP track_id="967254823">https://jeanlapouge.bandcamp.com/track/two-days-before</BANDCAMP>

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-12-11 3:55 p.m.

Congratulations to Gracie Potter for winning the principal trombone chair in the Detroit Symphony Orchestra!

<ATTACHMENT filename="IMG_3945.jpeg" index="0">~~[attachment=0]~~IMG_3945.jpeg</ATTACHMENT>

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2024-12-11 6:23 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]Congratulations to Gracie Potter for winning the principal trombone chair in the Detroit Symphony Orchestra![/quote]

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.innovatrombone.com/en/innov ... odality-2/">https://www.innovatrombone.com/en/innovatrombone-interviews-gracie-potter-winner-of-modality-2/</LINK_TEXT>

iranzi · by **iranzi** » 2024-12-17 2:11 a.m.

[quote="Posaunus"]<QUOTE author="tbdana" post_id="261112" time="1733950549" user_id="16498">
Congratulations to Gracie Potter for winning the principal trombone chair in the Detroit Symphony Orchestra![/quote]

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.innovatrombone.com/en/innov ... odality-2/">https://www.innovatrombone.com/en/innovatrombone-interviews-gracie-potter-winner-of-modality-2/</LINK_TEXT>
</QUOTE>

such great photo in that article:
<ATTACHMENT filename="In-2018-I-played-for-the-Phoenix-Youth-Symphony-Orchestras-Salon-Concert-with-pianist-Yeojin-Seol.-copia-696x616.jpeg" index="0">~~[attachment=0]~~In-2018-I-played-for-the-Phoenix-Youth-Symphony-Orchestras-Salon-Concert-with-pianist-Yeojin-Seol.-copia-696x616.jpeg</ATTACHMENT>

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2024-12-17 8:41 a.m.

[quote="tbdana"]

Just yesterday in Tractor Supply I ran into an old L.A. studio player friend, Marni Johnson, a French horn player who broke into the studios in the 1970s. We stood and chatted about the good ol' days, but so many of the stories were about being the only woman in the section, about skepticism about women's playing ability, about being last hired and first fired, and about being ignored and excluded even sitting in the middle of the section.
[/quote]

Apparently we can't lower the third....

Apologies if this has been mentioned, I haven't read every post. Busy season.

Anyway, I just read Malcolm Gladwell's "Revenge of the Tipping Point." In one section he refers to the "rule of the 1/3." Studies of corporate boards say women are ignored and marginalized, at any ratio below 1/3 of the number of people. Corporate boards are often 9 people. If there are less than 3 women their opinions are ignored, but when they hit that magic number they seem to become assimilated as equals. According to him this seems to be generally true for any minority in any type of group.

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2024-12-17 11:07 a.m.

oops.

Savio · by **Savio** » 2024-12-17 7:36 p.m.

Aline Nistad was my teacher. She was the principal trombone in Oslo Philharmonic orchestra from 1979. I will put the link from Wikipedia because she was maybe one of the first women ever to win the solo or principal trombone in a professional orchestra.

I will always look up to her. She told some of the difficulties to became the principal as a woman. As a teacher she was demanding but also very caring for each one of us.

I remember the first time i met her. I was a proud young man 19 years old. I got the audition right and started the conservatory. Some secretary guided me to the first trombone lesson. I got into the room and the only I could see was the cleaning worker? With a denim overalls before it got fashion in the early eighties? She shake my hands and told she was Aline Nistad. I have everything thanks to her...

Leif

Savio · by **Savio** » 2024-12-20 2:28 p.m.

[quote="Savio"]Aline Nistad was my teacher. She was the principal trombone in Oslo Philharmonic orchestra from 1979. I will put the link from Wikipedia because she was maybe one of the first women ever to win the solo or principal trombone in a professional orchestra.

I will always look up to her. She told some of the difficulties to became the principal as a woman. As a teacher she was demanding but also very caring for each one of us.

I remember the first time i met her. I was a proud young man 19 years old. I got the audition right and started the conservatory. Some secretary guided me to the first trombone lesson. I got into the room and the only I could see was the cleaning worker? With a denim overalls before it got fashion in the early eighties? She shake my hands and told she was Aline Nistad. I have everything thanks to her...

Leif[/quote]

Forgot to tell the fun thing; I asked the cleaning lady to leave the room. :roll: The cleaning lady smiled and shake my hand, that was Aline Nistad. :biggrin: Anyway we had a very good connection. She always connected everything to musical ideas. Scales, etudes, everything. And she had a legato that was better than any valve instrument, even singers. Never forget that sound. Miss her.

Leif

Savio · by **Savio** » 2024-12-24 4:17 p.m.

<YOUTUBE id="qMNGUx5MPvo">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMNGUx5MPvo</YOUTUBE>

She must have been mentioned before? She is famous and I stumbled over a masterclass she did some time ago. She told about some struggle she had to go through on the way to be that musician she is. I don't know but womans are often more honest to tell about struggle we all often go through? Anyway she always have a very singing approach to her playing even this particular piece goes rather fast. (this channel has some good videos to watch)

Leif

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2024-12-24 5:12 p.m.

[quote="Savio"]<YOUTUBE id="qMNGUx5MPvo">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMNGUx5MPvo</YOUTUBE>

She must have been mentioned before? She is famous and I stumbled over a masterclass she did some time ago. She told about some struggle she had to go through on the way to be that musician she is. I don't know but womans are often more honest to tell about struggle we all often go through? Anyway she always have a very singing approach to her playing even this particular piece goes rather fast. (this channel has some good videos to watch)

Leif[/quote]

The same struggles and then some I expect.

yeodoug · by **yeodoug** » 2025-01-29 10:54 a.m.

In my family, women brass players outnumber my trumpet playing son-in-law, tuba playing grandson, and me. My wife plays baritone horn, our oldest daughter plays bass trombone, our youngest daughter plays trumpet, and our granddaughter plays trombone.

My recent book, An Illustrated Dictionary for the Modern Trombone, Tuba, and Euphonium Player (Rowman & Littlefield, 2023), has a long entry on the word, "gender," where I discuss some of the long history of women trombonists going back to the Renaissance, and there is a list of past and present players and teachers of low brass instruments (the list is hardly comprehensive and is outdated as well, as is the case with any list in print) who are women.

Over the years, I have written a number of articles about women trombonists for the ITA Journal. You can read and download them from my website here:

Megumi Kanda—Amazing Grace

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.yeodoug.com/articles/Yeo_IT ... ribute.pdf">https://www.yeodoug.com/articles/Yeo_ITAJ_January_2021_Megumi_Kanda_tribute.pdf</LINK_TEXT>

Dorothy "Dottie" Ziegler: Pioneering Champion of the Trombone

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.yeodoug.com/articles/Yeo_IT ... ribute.pdf">https://www.yeodoug.com/articles/Yeo_ITAJ_January_2023_Dorothy_Ziegler_tribute.pdf</LINK_TEXT>

Lillian Briggs: The Trombone-Playing "Queen of Rock 'n' Roll"

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.yeodoug.com/articles/Yeo_IT ... ribute.pdf">https://www.yeodoug.com/articles/Yeo_ITAJ_October_2022_Lillian_Briggs_tribute.pdf</LINK_TEXT>

Finding Marguerite Dufay

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.yeodoug.com/articles/Yeo_IT ... _Dufay.pdf">https://www.yeodoug.com/articles/Yeo_ITAJ_January_2018_Marguerite_Dufay.pdf</LINK_TEXT>

I also wrote about and reprinted an article from the British magazine, "Judy for Girls," one of several fictional, serialized stories of an empowered young woman trombonist and her adventures with her trombone:

Trombone Tillie: A story about a girl and her trombone from Judy for Girls (1962), with a commentary by Douglas Yeo

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.yeodoug.com/articles/Yeo_IT ... Tillie.pdf">https://www.yeodoug.com/articles/Yeo_ITAJ_October_2022_Trombone_Tillie.pdf</LINK_TEXT>

Marguerite Dufay - the moniker of the individual who started this thread - is an exceptionally interesting subject for study. She is known to trombonists today as the subject of an outrageous caricature that appeared on an theatre advertising poster in Paris in 1895. It is this single image for which Dufay has been known to us in the modern era, but through my research, I was able place her in her historical context and point readers away from from the stereotype (the famous caricature of Dufay is greatly exaggerated). In this, we see her regain agency today as not just a cartoon character, but as a highly capable, widely praised, talented entertainer. I was able to uncover other theatrical posters that featured images of Marguerite Dufay - not as a caricature, but as she was - as well as several drawings and two photographs of her. There was a lot more to Marguerite Dufay than the famous caricature.

-Douglas Yeo

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2025-01-29 12:31 p.m.

[quote="yeodoug"]There was a lot more to Marguerite Dufay than the famous caricature.[/quote]

I find myself with conflicting feelings when faced with caricatures of that sort. Is it better to be remembered for an exaggerated image than to be forgotten completely?

yeodoug · by **yeodoug** » 2025-01-29 12:55 p.m.

[quote="JohnL"]<QUOTE author="yeodoug" post_id="265472" time="1738166049" user_id="3260">There was a lot more to Marguerite Dufay than the famous caricature.[/quote]

I find myself with conflicting feelings when faced with caricatures of that sort. Is it better to be remembered for an exaggerated image than to be forgotten completely?
</QUOTE>

This tension you bring up is real. Here's my take on the situation:

Marguerite Dufay was a very capable, highly praised entertainer in the bawdy world of the late nineteenth and early twentieth century "café concerts" scene in Paris. The caricature of her heightened her fame, even if it was outrageous. Today, her celebrated career has been forgotten; all that remains is the caricature. My article put the caricature in context—read my comments on page 39 about the humiliation many performers at these concerts had to endure—and then revived Marguerite Dufay's reputation by highlighting positive reviews and how she was praised during her career. The photos and other posters of her show the caricature for what it is.

If, because the caricature makes some people uncomfortable today, we completely ignore her, we do not honor her true, lasting legacy as a fine performer.

When my article appeared, there were are lot of opinions about it from women. When I wrote the article, I sought the assistance of many well-known women trombonists who were exceptionally helpful as I navigated the portrayal of Marguerite Dufay and the tone with which I framed her artistry. Some people felt the tension—that the caricature was outrageous and insulting—while others felt that knowing more about her career gave her agency and redeemed the caricature.

History is like this. It is often uncomfortable, but in the midst of the uncomfortableness, it provides us with new information and context. It is my hope that now that we know more about Marguerite Dufay, the outrageous caricature will remind people of her true contribution to the artistic world. While the caricature made her famous to a century of trombonists, we now know that there was so much more to her. And that is worth remembering.

-Douglas Yeo

musicofnote · by **musicofnote** » 2025-02-04 3:32 p.m.

<YOUTUBE id="Qt1t9oXRouQ">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qt1t9oXRouQ</YOUTUBE>

musicofnote · by **musicofnote** » 2025-02-04 4:55 p.m.

<YOUTUBE id="dN8Wecph3sw">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dN8Wecph3sw</YOUTUBE>

iranzi · by **iranzi** » 2025-02-11 6:27 a.m.

[quote="yeodoug"]In my family, women brass players outnumber my trumpet playing son-in-law, tuba playing grandson, and me. My wife plays baritone horn, our oldest daughter plays bass trombone, our youngest daughter plays trumpet, and our granddaughter plays trombone.

My recent book, An Illustrated Dictionary for the Modern Trombone, Tuba, and Euphonium Player (Rowman & Littlefield, 2023), has a long entry on the word, "gender," where I discuss some of the long history of women trombonists going back to the Renaissance, and there is a list of past and present players and teachers of low brass instruments (the list is hardly comprehensive and is outdated as well, as is the case with any list in print) who are women.

[...]

-Douglas Yeo[/quote]

Thank you!!! some great info & writing here

BrooklynDad · by **BrooklynDad** » 2025-02-12 12:22 a.m.

This is a great thread- kudos to the OP.

Jen Krupa was a great mentor and friend to me while we were in school together. She hipped me to many players that I wasn't aware of, like Vic Dickenson, Dicky Wells, etc.

Some of my favorite women trombonists are Carol Jarvis, Natalie Cressman, Deb Weisz, Megumi Kanda, Shannon Barnett, Robyn Amy, Sara Jacovino, Jen Wharton. I feel fortunate to have gotten to work with them all in some capacity, always good music and vibes.

I'd add some players that I've recently become aware of... they all sound superb in concept and excecution to me!

Kalia Vandever, Hailley Brinnel, Nanami Haruta, Allie Biancovuso, Shannon Gunn, Grace Rock, Lexi Hamner, I believe Gracie Potter has already been mentioned, and I'm looking forward to hearing her with DSO soon.

All these players have media on YouTube that is easy to search for and find. I have a couple of students, Hannah Davies and Bridgette Setters that have tremendous potential- I can't wait to hear their development.

Michael Dease

musicofnote · by **musicofnote** » 2025-02-25 4:01 a.m.

Polina Tarasenko wins Gewandhaus Orchestra

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.trombone.net/newsitem/polin ... ZYXCpP-o4Q">https://www.trombone.net/newsitem/polina-tarasenko-wins-gewandhaus-orchestra/?fbclid=IwY2xjawIqZexleHRuA2FlbQIxMAABHd6N5PeSh6mQEk7Q3XDIlTXAMVzFYnzhIrJD-YvEZfFBa2zDP8yk3YsPtg_aem_HsfNItzmf9ukZYXCpP-o4Q</LINK_TEXT>

JTeagarden · by **JTeagarden** » 2025-03-08 3:48 p.m.

<YOUTUBE id="ffNFam7glrk">https://youtu.be/ffNFam7glrk?si=eB9bcIYBqDoZFqAe</YOUTUBE>

Who is the female trombonist here at around 40 seconds?

Chazzer69 · by **Chazzer69** » 2025-03-08 6:05 p.m.

I know this was posted in another section of the forum, but I think it belongs here as well. Talk about women trombonists...dayum!!! :D So awesome to see all of the ladies knocking this one out!

<YOUTUBE id="SEQVfCPT3s0">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEQVfCPT3s0</YOUTUBE>

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2025-03-08 6:07 p.m.

[quote="JTeagarden"]<YOUTUBE id="ffNFam7glrk">https://youtu.be/ffNFam7glrk?si=eB9bcIYBqDoZFqAe</YOUTUBE>

Who is the female trombonist here at around 40 seconds?[/quote]

Looks a bit like Betty Glover.

fsgazda · by **fsgazda** » 2025-03-16 1:53 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]Congratulations to Gracie Potter for winning the principal trombone chair in the Detroit Symphony Orchestra!

IMG_3945.jpeg[/quote]

I heard Gracie Potter play Appermont's "Colors" with the Army Band on the final concert at the American Trombone Worksop Friday night. It was some of the best music (as well as trombone playing) that I've heard in a long time. Really an amazing performance on every level.

Right here at 1:49:00. The recording is great, but her sound live was so amazing.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.youtube.com/live/M51yYlfsE7 ... ELLgUJeGW-">https://www.youtube.com/live/M51yYlfsE7I?si=DNMqlOELLgUJeGW-</LINK_TEXT>

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2025-03-16 2:14 p.m.

[quote="fsgazda"]<QUOTE author="tbdana" post_id="261112" time="1733950549" user_id="16498">
Congratulations to Gracie Potter for winning the principal trombone chair in the Detroit Symphony Orchestra!

IMG_3945.jpeg[/quote]

I heard Gracie Potter play Appermont's "Colors" with the Army Band on the final concert at the American Trombone Worksop Friday night. It was some of the best music (as well as trombone playing) that I've heard in a long time. Really an amazing performance on every level.

Right here at 1:49:00. The recording is great, but her sound live was so amazing.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.youtube.com/live/M51yYlfsE7 ... ELLgUJeGW-">https://www.youtube.com/live/M51yYlfsE7I?si=DNMqlOELLgUJeGW-</LINK_TEXT>
</QUOTE>

I love that! Gorgeous sound and nice playing. Thanks for sharing!

MStarke · by **MStarke** » 2025-03-17 10:44 a.m.

Wonderful performance of a wonderful piece of trombone literature! Appermont's Colors has been one of my favorites for a long time.

They have certainly been mentioned before, but I really really like the Bones Apart quartet. Great music, very very well played and with a great sound that's to a degree "British" to my ears.

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