Relearning Positions on New Horn
- MethowCraig
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Dec 13, 2018
I just bought a new horn. A King 2B. My old horn was a Yamaha YSL 651.
I am astonished at the change in positioning. High G and middle E are played in almost the exact same #2 position. I can play high Ab in position #1 with only a slight change in my embouchure. High F can be played in almost perfect #4.
The high D series is somewhat sharp. The high F series and high Bb series are VERY sharp.
I use a 7c mouthpiece. I have thin lips and have always preferred a smaller mouthpiece. I also have always preferred to tune my horn ever so slightly sharp, so that I don't have to come up hard on #1.
I am having to relearn all my upper positions. Is this normal ? :???:
I am astonished at the change in positioning. High G and middle E are played in almost the exact same #2 position. I can play high Ab in position #1 with only a slight change in my embouchure. High F can be played in almost perfect #4.
The high D series is somewhat sharp. The high F series and high Bb series are VERY sharp.
I use a 7c mouthpiece. I have thin lips and have always preferred a smaller mouthpiece. I also have always preferred to tune my horn ever so slightly sharp, so that I don't have to come up hard on #1.
I am having to relearn all my upper positions. Is this normal ? :???:
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
Yeah, what makes horns sound the way they do is often their overtone series. This can be tweaked by the taper, particularly in the tuning slide.
I am a big advocate of the[url=https://www.amazon.com/Tuning-C-D-440-Richard-Schwartz/dp/B002COP51Q]Tuning CD. Put the drone on and play scales and whatnot over it. The problem is not merely the pitch, which can be ascertained by a tuner.. but also the timbre that you're putting out. You can be sharp on the pitch (pinched) and still be "in tune" but it'll sound sharp. Certainly if you can play Ab in first you are pinched to some degree as normally that note is quite too flat to be played there. With the drone, you can hear if you are both in tune and adjust your timbre as well. It's one thing to say, pinch upwards to get the note in tune, it's another to move the handslide slightly up and get your timbre just right and also be in tune.
I am a big advocate of the
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
Yes, I think Matt K is right. I have a lot of trombones. None of them has the e and g at the same spot and the Ab on first is always very flat on every horn. Modern horns are built like that.
As to the problems. If it is an old horn then check the leadpipe for dirt. If not dirt then it is probably you who have not adopted yet. It takes time to find the sweet spot on a new horn, especially if you are not used to switch between different horns.
The problem is the lips can bend a note both up and down with ease and if you are not sure about what sound you are aiming at you can make a note speak in many places. The only way you can tell were the note is is if your sound is relaxed and centered. If you still have a problem then the horn is very odd.
Make sure you make the best relaxed and sonorous sound ever on the trombone and check if you can play more as you are used to or if the intonation issues persist.
./Tom
As to the problems. If it is an old horn then check the leadpipe for dirt. If not dirt then it is probably you who have not adopted yet. It takes time to find the sweet spot on a new horn, especially if you are not used to switch between different horns.
The problem is the lips can bend a note both up and down with ease and if you are not sure about what sound you are aiming at you can make a note speak in many places. The only way you can tell were the note is is if your sound is relaxed and centered. If you still have a problem then the horn is very odd.
Make sure you make the best relaxed and sonorous sound ever on the trombone and check if you can play more as you are used to or if the intonation issues persist.
./Tom
- MethowCraig
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Dec 13, 2018
Taper in the tuning slide?
Tuning CD ?
Tuning CD ?
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
[quote="MethowCraig"]Taper in the tuning slide?
[/quote]
Yes, the tuning slide start small and ends larger but the speed and shape at which it goes from the smaller to the larger size varies from model to model. That, in turn, affects things like how flat or sharp certain overtones are and the overall timbre of the instrument to some degree.
If you click on the link I provided in the last post, it takes you to an amazon link for it.
[/quote]
Yes, the tuning slide start small and ends larger but the speed and shape at which it goes from the smaller to the larger size varies from model to model. That, in turn, affects things like how flat or sharp certain overtones are and the overall timbre of the instrument to some degree.
Tuning CD ?
If you click on the link I provided in the last post, it takes you to an amazon link for it.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Try doing some playing with your eyes closed so you're placing the slide entirely by ear and muscle memory. Even when you think you're ignoring the bell as a point of reference, your subconscious mind may not be.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
Every horn is different, including the same model horns!
High G on my bass is nearly in first position. On my large tenor it is basically second.
High G on my bass is nearly in first position. On my large tenor it is basically second.
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
[quote="Burgerbob"]Every horn is different, including the same model horns!
High G on my bass is nearly in first position. On my large tenor it is basically second.[/quote]
Yes the horns are different. Brands are different and individual horns of the same brand are different. Basses are different from tenors and of course altos are very different from tenors and basses and certain notes can be out of tune.
I had a dent in a horn that made one note particular play very strange. When that dent was removed the tuning of that note changed to the better
In general I would say the notes are usually not all over the place on old horns. You've got a new King 2b. If the 2b construction has been changed and notes do not line up as on the old 2b's then it wouldn't feel like a King 2b anymore.
/Tom
High G on my bass is nearly in first position. On my large tenor it is basically second.[/quote]
Yes the horns are different. Brands are different and individual horns of the same brand are different. Basses are different from tenors and of course altos are very different from tenors and basses and certain notes can be out of tune.
I had a dent in a horn that made one note particular play very strange. When that dent was removed the tuning of that note changed to the better
In general I would say the notes are usually not all over the place on old horns. You've got a new King 2b. If the 2b construction has been changed and notes do not line up as on the old 2b's then it wouldn't feel like a King 2b anymore.
/Tom
- TromboneFox
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Nov 07, 2018
I experienced the same thing with my other 1970s-era 2B. Now I have one from 1945 and it's not as bad. The difference is that, starting sometime in the late 40s or early 50s, the King company began manufacturing those horns in Elkhart, Indiana, instead of Cleveland, Ohio, and the Elkhart horns were notoriously not quite as well made as the older Cleveland horns.
Strangely, my 45 will still give me a peftect Ab in first though.
Strangely, my 45 will still give me a peftect Ab in first though.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="TromboneFox"]I experienced the same thing with my other 1970s-era 2B. Now I have one from 1945 and it's not as bad. The difference is that, starting sometime in the late 40s or early 50s, the King company began manufacturing those horns in Elkhart, Indiana, instead of Cleveland, Ohio, and the Elkhart horns were notoriously not quite as well made as the older Cleveland horns.
Strangely, my 45 will still give me a peftect Ab in first though.[/quote]
Just for accuracy, King moved from Cleveland to Eastlake, Ohio (a suburb of Cleveland). King never made instruments in Elkhart.
Strangely, my 45 will still give me a peftect Ab in first though.[/quote]
Just for accuracy, King moved from Cleveland to Eastlake, Ohio (a suburb of Cleveland). King never made instruments in Elkhart.
- TromboneFox
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Nov 07, 2018
Oh. Thanks.