Transposing trombone music
- Trhtrbn
- Posts: 154
- Joined: Jun 05, 2023
Question to trombone all teachers/instructors? Have you ever had a student who switched from trumpet to trombone that you would transpose the trombone bass clef parts to treble clef a la the British Brass Band music? I understand there are purists or conservatives who will “Pooh-Pooh” the idea out of hat. I have considered this possibility because of out of the over 40 years I have played brass instruments, over half of that was in the Salvation Army. I am so much more comfortable playing in transposed treble clef than bass clef, (I still think of the tuba and trombone parts in bass clef Bb as a C, etc.), and because of all of the instructing I used to do for beginning brass players in the SA. I can transpose any key brass instruments into transposed treble clef from hymnals and such written for piano in C. Also, at my age I have absolutely no desire to become a professional, at least not this early in my comeback after 10+ years of not playing any instruments. What are you alls thoughts about me transposing the parts I play into Bb treble clef?
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
Nope. That's just not practical for most situations. But lots of trombone literature and teaching material is in tenor clef, which is an extremely easy read for those used to reading Bb treble clef parts.
- norbie2018
- Posts: 1051
- Joined: Apr 05, 2018
Can't you stick with bass clef and eventually teach tenor clef? Knowing tenor clef makes reading a transposing treble clef part a breeze.
- Trhtrbn
- Posts: 154
- Joined: Jun 05, 2023
The reason I ask is that I am going to be playing in a SA brass band, again.
- norbie2018
- Posts: 1051
- Joined: Apr 05, 2018
SA?
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
If you can transpose an instrument in any key into Bb treble clef, why not just pretend you are playing an Eb instrument in Bb treble clef? That would give you the correct position of the note in the bass clef staff. Then you just have to mentally tweak the key signature a bit.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="norbie2018"]SA?[/quote]
SA is Salvation Army. Parts are often written in transposed treble clef so that you don't have to learn new fingerings for different instruments.
To the OP: Many concert band arrangements come with treble clef parts for trombones and baritone. They are rarely handed out since very few of the players need them.
Tenor Clef (movable C on the 2nd line from the top of the staff) has notes in the same positions as transposing treble clef and if you can learn to figure out the two "weird" accidentals ("C natural" is C# and "G natural" is G#) you can easily learn to read tenor clef parts. Most of us go the other way, using tenor clef to read transposed Bb treble clef.
SA is Salvation Army. Parts are often written in transposed treble clef so that you don't have to learn new fingerings for different instruments.
To the OP: Many concert band arrangements come with treble clef parts for trombones and baritone. They are rarely handed out since very few of the players need them.
Tenor Clef (movable C on the 2nd line from the top of the staff) has notes in the same positions as transposing treble clef and if you can learn to figure out the two "weird" accidentals ("C natural" is C# and "G natural" is G#) you can easily learn to read tenor clef parts. Most of us go the other way, using tenor clef to read transposed Bb treble clef.
- Trhtrbn
- Posts: 154
- Joined: Jun 05, 2023
[quote="BGuttman"]<QUOTE author="norbie2018" post_id="217903" time="1692220203" user_id="2978">SA?[/quote]
SA is Salvation Army. Parts are often written in transposed treble clef so that you don't have to learn new fingerings for different instruments.
To the OP: Many concert band arrangements come with treble clef parts for trombones and baritone. They are rarely handed out since very few of the players need them.
Tenor Clef (movable C on the 2nd line from the top of the staff) has notes in the same positions as transposing treble clef and if you can learn to figure out the two "weird" accidentals ("C natural" is C# and "G natural" is G#) you can easily learn to read tenor clef parts. Most of us go the other way, using tenor clef to read transposed Bb treble clef.
</QUOTE>
Thanks
SA is Salvation Army. Parts are often written in transposed treble clef so that you don't have to learn new fingerings for different instruments.
To the OP: Many concert band arrangements come with treble clef parts for trombones and baritone. They are rarely handed out since very few of the players need them.
Tenor Clef (movable C on the 2nd line from the top of the staff) has notes in the same positions as transposing treble clef and if you can learn to figure out the two "weird" accidentals ("C natural" is C# and "G natural" is G#) you can easily learn to read tenor clef parts. Most of us go the other way, using tenor clef to read transposed Bb treble clef.
</QUOTE>
Thanks
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
Reginald Fink wrote a book “From Treble Clef to Bass Clef Baritone” many years ago. It might be out of print. It helps players make the transition from reading treble to bass clef.
OTOH, if you’re not going to play any other kind of music other than SA or British Brass Band, then you might not want to bother.
OTOH, if you’re not going to play any other kind of music other than SA or British Brass Band, then you might not want to bother.
- Vegasbound
- Posts: 1328
- Joined: Jul 06, 2019
Learn to read bass clef
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Tuba players have F, Eb, C and Bb tubas to contend with, and they ALL read concert pitch (except the Brits who for some reason write tuba music in transposed treble clef?!?!?). Tuba players (in the US) learn different fingerings for each pitch instrument. Tuba parts aren't written for F, Eb, C or Bb tubas, they are just written for tuba, and you deal with the fingerings depending on which instrument you're playing.
One of the problems with transposing parts is that people learn something that has no relation at all to what the rest of the band is doing. I play with an excellent French horn player who can't tell me what concert pitch he's playing at any given moment. Frustrating.
All instruments music should be notated in concert pitch, and everybody should be able to read that. Ever try to read a score with 3 or more different transpositions in addition to multiple clefs on it? Notice that the instruments that read different clefs don't have to transpose.
I mean if TUBA players can handle different fingerings - TUBA players for God's sake!!! - certainly clarinet and trumpet players should be able to handle it.
Little bit of a rant, sorry. It just drives me crazy. :horror:
One of the problems with transposing parts is that people learn something that has no relation at all to what the rest of the band is doing. I play with an excellent French horn player who can't tell me what concert pitch he's playing at any given moment. Frustrating.
All instruments music should be notated in concert pitch, and everybody should be able to read that. Ever try to read a score with 3 or more different transpositions in addition to multiple clefs on it? Notice that the instruments that read different clefs don't have to transpose.
I mean if TUBA players can handle different fingerings - TUBA players for God's sake!!! - certainly clarinet and trumpet players should be able to handle it.
Little bit of a rant, sorry. It just drives me crazy. :horror:
- BrassSection
- Posts: 424
- Joined: May 11, 2022
My 2 cents worth is do whatever works best for you. I was born and raised on baritone bass clef, but for fun in high school I’d look at the treble clef baritone player’s music beside me and within a day or two,I had treble clef figured out and could easily transpose. Fast forward to getting a trumpet, no problem reading trumpet music. Fast forward again to currently getting a chord sheet for music. No problem for euph, trombone, or tuba, and what do I do for trumpet? Just think in bass clef. French horn…I transpose that in my head on the fly. Played trumpet part during ensemble rehearsal for a trumpet player, who hadn't played in many years, on my trombone to help her with her part. I am more comfortable with bass clef, but treble clef is not an issue for me on any instrument.
And for fun practices, I’ll play some trumpet scales, then turn the music upside down and play it on my tuba…Seriously reading tuba music is the most difficult for me. Only get music for tuba once every few years on average, takes a few days to remember all the notes below Bb comfortably.
And for fun practices, I’ll play some trumpet scales, then turn the music upside down and play it on my tuba…Seriously reading tuba music is the most difficult for me. Only get music for tuba once every few years on average, takes a few days to remember all the notes below Bb comfortably.
- Trhtrbn
- Posts: 154
- Joined: Jun 05, 2023
Thanks for all the comments, I appreciate them. It was a knee jerk idea, I will stick with bass clef and stop associating, for example, Bb to C, etc, and learn/practice the notes as written. I overthink things. It really was just a ridiculous thought, my bad <EMOJI seq="1f614" tseq="1f614">😔</EMOJI>
- Vegasbound
- Posts: 1328
- Joined: Jul 06, 2019
[quote="hyperbolica"]Tuba players have F, Eb, C and Bb tubas to contend with, and they ALL read concert pitch (except the Brits who for some reason write tuba music in transposed treble clef?!?!?). Tuba players (in the US) learn different fingerings for each pitch instrument. Tuba parts aren't written for F, Eb, C or Bb tubas, they are just written for tuba, and you deal with the fingerings depending on which instrument you're playing.
One of the problems with transposing parts is that people learn something that has no relation at all to what the rest of the band is doing. I play with an excellent French horn player who can't tell me what concert pitch he's playing at any given moment. Frustrating.
All instruments music should be notated in concert pitch, and everybody should be able to read that. Ever try to read a score with 3 or more different transpositions in addition to multiple clefs on it? Notice that the instruments that read different clefs don't have to transpose.
I mean if TUBA players can handle different fingerings - TUBA players for God's sake!!! - certainly clarinet and trumpet players should be able to handle it.
Little bit of a rant, sorry. It just drives me crazy. :horror:[/quote]
The reason for British brass bands using transposed treble clef is historic, goes back to the days when mines/ works had their own bands, often with little or no formal education, teach one set of fingering and it can be used on any instrument in the band.
One of the problems with transposing parts is that people learn something that has no relation at all to what the rest of the band is doing. I play with an excellent French horn player who can't tell me what concert pitch he's playing at any given moment. Frustrating.
All instruments music should be notated in concert pitch, and everybody should be able to read that. Ever try to read a score with 3 or more different transpositions in addition to multiple clefs on it? Notice that the instruments that read different clefs don't have to transpose.
I mean if TUBA players can handle different fingerings - TUBA players for God's sake!!! - certainly clarinet and trumpet players should be able to handle it.
Little bit of a rant, sorry. It just drives me crazy. :horror:[/quote]
The reason for British brass bands using transposed treble clef is historic, goes back to the days when mines/ works had their own bands, often with little or no formal education, teach one set of fingering and it can be used on any instrument in the band.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Vegasbound"]The reason for British brass bands using transposed treble clef is historic, goes back to the days when mines/ works had their own bands, often with little or no formal education, teach one set of fingering and it can be used on any instrument in the band.[/quote]
Back when I was marching DCI (drum and bugle corps), it was the same way - all of the parts were written in treble clef G; not sure how it works now.
Back when I was marching DCI (drum and bugle corps), it was the same way - all of the parts were written in treble clef G; not sure how it works now.
- CalgaryTbone
- Posts: 1460
- Joined: May 10, 2018
[quote="Trhtrbn"]Thanks for all the comments, I appreciate them. It was a knee jerk idea, I will stick with bass clef and stop associating, for example, Bb to C, etc, and learn/practice the notes as written. I overthink things. It really was just a ridiculous thought, my bad <EMOJI seq="1f614" tseq="1f614">😔</EMOJI>[/quote]
It's not ridiculous, but maybe a bit unpractical. My background is the same, and I had to learn bass clef at the start of high school. Learning other notations makes it possible to play a greater variety of music, including the brass band bass trombone parts - the only instrument of the band that uses that clef, and concert pitch (except percussion).
One tip - I've learned that practicing the same music in both notations speeds up the process in your brain for quickly recognizing the notes in both notations. Try getting a hold of a Trumpet Arbans and also a Trombone version. Practicie a short etude in treble, and then play the same thing in bass clef. Your ear and your memory will help you. Also, play at a tempo where there are very few (hopefully no) mistakes. Some patience in keeping the tempo slow until you are more comfortable will lead to better reading and technique in the new clef in the long run - you spend less time correcting mistakes. Good luck!
Jim Scott
It's not ridiculous, but maybe a bit unpractical. My background is the same, and I had to learn bass clef at the start of high school. Learning other notations makes it possible to play a greater variety of music, including the brass band bass trombone parts - the only instrument of the band that uses that clef, and concert pitch (except percussion).
One tip - I've learned that practicing the same music in both notations speeds up the process in your brain for quickly recognizing the notes in both notations. Try getting a hold of a Trumpet Arbans and also a Trombone version. Practicie a short etude in treble, and then play the same thing in bass clef. Your ear and your memory will help you. Also, play at a tempo where there are very few (hopefully no) mistakes. Some patience in keeping the tempo slow until you are more comfortable will lead to better reading and technique in the new clef in the long run - you spend less time correcting mistakes. Good luck!
Jim Scott
- Trhtrbn
- Posts: 154
- Joined: Jun 05, 2023
[quote="CalgaryTbone"]<QUOTE author="Trhtrbn" post_id="217943" time="1692298776" user_id="16681">
Thanks for all the comments, I appreciate them. It was a knee jerk idea, I will stick with bass clef and stop associating, for example, Bb to C, etc, and learn/practice the notes as written. I overthink things. It really was just a ridiculous thought, my bad <EMOJI seq="1f614" tseq="1f614">😔</EMOJI>[/quote]
It's not ridiculous, but maybe a bit unpractical. My background is the same, and I had to learn bass clef at the start of high school. Learning other notations makes it possible to play a greater variety of music, including the brass band bass trombone parts - the only instrument of the band that uses that clef, and concert pitch (except percussion).
One tip - I've learned that practicing the same music in both notations speeds up the process in your brain for quickly recognizing the notes in both notations. Try getting a hold of a Trumpet Arbans and also a Trombone version. Practicie a short etude in treble, and then play the same thing in bass clef. Your ear and your memory will help you. Also, play at a tempo where there are very few (hopefully no) mistakes. Some patience in keeping the tempo slow until you are more comfortable will lead to better reading and technique in the new clef in the long run - you spend less time correcting mistakes. Good luck!
Jim Scott
</QUOTE>
You are correct, bass bone is in bass clef C, I played it in the SA Brass Band. I think the idea of both may be a good one, and since I have Arban’s and HL Clarke in treble and bass clef I have been working out of both. I started bass clef in HS as well, 10th grade started tuba, sang tenor in the choir at church and school, which is usually bass clef, (I can still sing it easier than play on the horn, which I try to sing a part before sight reading), and all my teachers and conductors have said I am one of the best sight readers they have seen. I just seem to make dumb little mistakes when sight reading bass clef on the horns that I do not make in treble clef. Like accidentals, for instance. Probably why I prefer treble clef and still find treble clef easier <EMOJI seq="1f937-2642" tseq="1f937-200d-2642-fe0f">🤷♂️</EMOJI>
Thanks for all the comments, I appreciate them. It was a knee jerk idea, I will stick with bass clef and stop associating, for example, Bb to C, etc, and learn/practice the notes as written. I overthink things. It really was just a ridiculous thought, my bad <EMOJI seq="1f614" tseq="1f614">😔</EMOJI>[/quote]
It's not ridiculous, but maybe a bit unpractical. My background is the same, and I had to learn bass clef at the start of high school. Learning other notations makes it possible to play a greater variety of music, including the brass band bass trombone parts - the only instrument of the band that uses that clef, and concert pitch (except percussion).
One tip - I've learned that practicing the same music in both notations speeds up the process in your brain for quickly recognizing the notes in both notations. Try getting a hold of a Trumpet Arbans and also a Trombone version. Practicie a short etude in treble, and then play the same thing in bass clef. Your ear and your memory will help you. Also, play at a tempo where there are very few (hopefully no) mistakes. Some patience in keeping the tempo slow until you are more comfortable will lead to better reading and technique in the new clef in the long run - you spend less time correcting mistakes. Good luck!
Jim Scott
</QUOTE>
You are correct, bass bone is in bass clef C, I played it in the SA Brass Band. I think the idea of both may be a good one, and since I have Arban’s and HL Clarke in treble and bass clef I have been working out of both. I started bass clef in HS as well, 10th grade started tuba, sang tenor in the choir at church and school, which is usually bass clef, (I can still sing it easier than play on the horn, which I try to sing a part before sight reading), and all my teachers and conductors have said I am one of the best sight readers they have seen. I just seem to make dumb little mistakes when sight reading bass clef on the horns that I do not make in treble clef. Like accidentals, for instance. Probably why I prefer treble clef and still find treble clef easier <EMOJI seq="1f937-2642" tseq="1f937-200d-2642-fe0f">🤷♂️</EMOJI>
- StephenK
- Posts: 171
- Joined: Mar 26, 2018
I would suggest practising reading both bass and transposed treble, you can get good at bass pretty quickly imo, and will help you expand what you play, coming from a similar UK background. I'd suggest getting a book of familiar tunes in bass and use those as it will be very clear if you hit a wrong un. What matters most is that you can play the parts on sight, more than 'what is this note called'. You do not want to start transcribing every piece you play. As someone noted, often TC parts are available in wind band sets. However you can expand your horizons to other music featuring trombones as well. Move on to tenor (easy from treble) and alto also.