Closed versus Open Wrap
- Merv66
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Dec 02, 2019
Looking at closed and open wrap trombones. As the type of wrap seems only to be relevant when using the trigger is it a major factor to consider when buying?
- EriKon
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Apr 03, 2022
If you play a lot in small places with little space (e.g. small orchestra pits), you should consider getting a closed wrap, because you don't want your open wrap dinging against everything around you. If that's not a factor, just try and see what feels better for you personally if you have the chance. I recently tried the same model by Lätzsch with their 3 different wraps, the difference was marginal at best. The ergonomics might be the biggest difference and that might change the way how you feel with a horn. But also something that can be compensated with counterweights.
- Merv66
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Dec 02, 2019
Many thanks for that. Not that restricted in a brass band.
Point taken that the differences are relatively minor
Mervyn
Point taken that the differences are relatively minor
Mervyn
- Aspenforest
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Jan 20, 2020
The biggest differences is going to be coming from the valve size, a classic example is the stock valve on a Bach 42 being much too small so the air feels a lot more constricted or stuffy
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
It all depends on the design and the builder. I've played some closed wrap instruments that are just as open as an equivalent open wrap model.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
In my opinion it makes little difference other than 3 issues:
1) if you use the trigger a lot and it accumulates water, an open wrap drains better
2) the obvious knocking stuff behind you issue with long extending wraps
3) if you ever use an E pull to get that low C make sure whatever wrap you select can achieve it.
I have horns with both, and I don't think the wrap makes any difference to sound or resistance. My 88h Elkhart with closed wrap has a smallish valve and it still has a great trigger register.
1) if you use the trigger a lot and it accumulates water, an open wrap drains better
2) the obvious knocking stuff behind you issue with long extending wraps
3) if you ever use an E pull to get that low C make sure whatever wrap you select can achieve it.
I have horns with both, and I don't think the wrap makes any difference to sound or resistance. My 88h Elkhart with closed wrap has a smallish valve and it still has a great trigger register.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
There's only a couple horns where you can actually evaluate this with the exact same valve- the Bach 36, 42, 50, Modern Conn 88H, Yamaha 882, and perhaps a Jupiter or two.
- vetsurginc
- Posts: 166
- Joined: Jun 29, 2019
[quote="Aspenforest"]The biggest differences is going to be coming from the valve size, a classic example is the stock valve on a Bach 42 being much too small so the air feels a lot more constricted or stuffy[/quote]
And what a difference a valve change makes. Just got my mid-70's Bach 42BO back from adding an Instrument Innovations valve installed. What an open blow now.!
And what a difference a valve change makes. Just got my mid-70's Bach 42BO back from adding an Instrument Innovations valve installed. What an open blow now.!
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
I agree with Hyperbolica. The big thing with an open wrap or semi open wrap like the Minick or Alessi style wrap is that the water drains without you needing to do anything.
The valve size/openness is what affects how the f side plates the most.
In close second is the port arrangement. The classic 88H actually has the same port arrangement as the Alessi style open wrap. The 88HO "open" wrap doesn't! You have a 180⁰ kink where the air exits the f tubing and goes back into the neck pipe.
So in my experience, a "closed" wrap with more gradual turns and a 90⁰/90⁰ port arrangement plays better on the F side than an open wrap with a 90⁰/180⁰ arrangement.
And of course the E pull if you need it. The CL valve has the most pull from what I've seen. The Kissbone maybe has more, in it's original version. Yamaha open wrap could have as much or more, but they didn't make the over sleeves long enough to do it.
The valve size/openness is what affects how the f side plates the most.
In close second is the port arrangement. The classic 88H actually has the same port arrangement as the Alessi style open wrap. The 88HO "open" wrap doesn't! You have a 180⁰ kink where the air exits the f tubing and goes back into the neck pipe.
So in my experience, a "closed" wrap with more gradual turns and a 90⁰/90⁰ port arrangement plays better on the F side than an open wrap with a 90⁰/180⁰ arrangement.
And of course the E pull if you need it. The CL valve has the most pull from what I've seen. The Kissbone maybe has more, in it's original version. Yamaha open wrap could have as much or more, but they didn't make the over sleeves long enough to do it.
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]
In close second is the port arrangement. The classic 88H actually has the same port arrangement as the Alessi style open wrap. The 88HO "open" wrap doesn't! You have a 180⁰ kink where the air exits the f tubing and goes back into the neck pipe.
[/quote]
It’s a minor thing, but we’re not really that concerned with air channels and fluid dynamics in valves. Yes, we push some air through the horn, but when we make a sound on the trombone, we’re vibrating an air column. (Tsk tsk Harrison!)
[quote="harrisonreed"]
So in my experience, a "closed" wrap with more gradual turns and a 90⁰/90⁰ port arrangement plays better on the F side than an open wrap with a 90⁰/180⁰ arrangement.
And of course the E pull if you need it.[/quote]
I agree with both of these points. In other words, the valve core and the direction of the valve ports seems to be more important than the wrap style.
Historically, at least in the mid-to-late 20th century, experimenting with open wraps was more noticeable. Replacing stock valves with larger ones, as well as opening ports, “scooping” the rotor, and creating new and different valves (Thayer, K-valves, Minick vavles, Lindberg valves, Radial Flow, etc., etc.) became more noticeable and more popular a little later. Which actually came first? Chicken or egg.
In close second is the port arrangement. The classic 88H actually has the same port arrangement as the Alessi style open wrap. The 88HO "open" wrap doesn't! You have a 180⁰ kink where the air exits the f tubing and goes back into the neck pipe.
[/quote]
It’s a minor thing, but we’re not really that concerned with air channels and fluid dynamics in valves. Yes, we push some air through the horn, but when we make a sound on the trombone, we’re vibrating an air column. (Tsk tsk Harrison!)
[quote="harrisonreed"]
So in my experience, a "closed" wrap with more gradual turns and a 90⁰/90⁰ port arrangement plays better on the F side than an open wrap with a 90⁰/180⁰ arrangement.
And of course the E pull if you need it.[/quote]
I agree with both of these points. In other words, the valve core and the direction of the valve ports seems to be more important than the wrap style.
Historically, at least in the mid-to-late 20th century, experimenting with open wraps was more noticeable. Replacing stock valves with larger ones, as well as opening ports, “scooping” the rotor, and creating new and different valves (Thayer, K-valves, Minick vavles, Lindberg valves, Radial Flow, etc., etc.) became more noticeable and more popular a little later. Which actually came first? Chicken or egg.
- Finetales
- Posts: 1482
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
For the record, I've never once had to get water out of any of the closed wraps I've owned. 3BF, 607, 88H, 72H, Selmer Largo, German tenor...no F wrap water issues to speak of.
I generally like closed wraps as they don't stick out as far, but I feel like open wraps tend to have better weight balance as more of the weight is in the very back. They're also easier to repair!
My Y-Fort tenor (open wrap) has 2 180-degree bends, funnily enough. Valve notes play great.
I generally like closed wraps as they don't stick out as far, but I feel like open wraps tend to have better weight balance as more of the weight is in the very back. They're also easier to repair!
My Y-Fort tenor (open wrap) has 2 180-degree bends, funnily enough. Valve notes play great.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
My 36H has issues with water not draining. I play hot lol.
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
[quote="Burgerbob"]There's only a couple horns where you can actually evaluate this with the exact same valve- the Bach 36, 42, 50, Modern Conn 88H, Yamaha 882, and perhaps a Jupiter or two.[/quote]
(I know you know this, but for the reader) ...and in all of those cases, the bracing is also completely different, so the playing differences still aren't just from the shape of the plumbing.
To the OP: I'm going to hazard a guess that you're in the UK, and this question is Conn 88H-adjacent... in which case, go to Rosehill where you can play half a dozen each of H/HO/HT etc and pick out a good one (plus they also have discounted ex-demos - some of which might be repaired returns, but others can be great horns that happened to pick up a ding or scratch as exhibit stock). Modern Conn-Selmer stuff isn't necessarily the most consistent, but a good one is still great.
Try other stuff too, of course, but for the Conns specifically that's where to go. (And if you're at Rosehill, Dawkes and Prozone are both very close too.)
(I know you know this, but for the reader) ...and in all of those cases, the bracing is also completely different, so the playing differences still aren't just from the shape of the plumbing.
To the OP: I'm going to hazard a guess that you're in the UK, and this question is Conn 88H-adjacent... in which case, go to Rosehill where you can play half a dozen each of H/HO/HT etc and pick out a good one (plus they also have discounted ex-demos - some of which might be repaired returns, but others can be great horns that happened to pick up a ding or scratch as exhibit stock). Modern Conn-Selmer stuff isn't necessarily the most consistent, but a good one is still great.
Try other stuff too, of course, but for the Conns specifically that's where to go. (And if you're at Rosehill, Dawkes and Prozone are both very close too.)
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
For everyone who has trouble with water collecting in your closed wraps are these instruments dependent or independent? I have three Holton TR 180’s with closed wraps, and I do not get any water in my wraps at all.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="WGWTR180"]For everyone who has trouble with water collecting in your closed wraps are these instruments dependent or independent? I have three Holton TR 180’s with closed wraps, and I do not get any water in my wraps at all.[/quote]
The times I've had the issue were on single valve closed wrap (either a 72h or 88h) playing a lot of trigger notes. It hasn't been often, but it has happened a couple of times.
The times I've had the issue were on single valve closed wrap (either a 72h or 88h) playing a lot of trigger notes. It hasn't been often, but it has happened a couple of times.
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
Honestly, never really noticed much of a difference, though if you are playing bass trombone, open wrap definitely does help with the water accumulation, so you'll definitely need to empty it out if you are playing on a traditional or closed wrap.
Regarding port directions, I always wonder whether it's the overall direction change or number of direction changes that matters more. With rotary valves, going through the valve means going through a double S curve, one into the valve, and one out of the valve. I think someone before had mentioned how many degrees of a bend each is. When using the valve the curves are shape differently, and if you have a 90/90 valve it's an over 90 degree bend followed by a short bend back as part of an S curve at the end, with the reverse on the other side. With the 90/180, you get a continuous 180 curve, which in some ways might be better. Of course then there are valves like the OpenFlow that have the upper knuckles go off in some other direction.
Anyway, not sure if that made sense. I would worry much more about what the valve is than what the wrap is, especially with Bach trombones.
Regarding port directions, I always wonder whether it's the overall direction change or number of direction changes that matters more. With rotary valves, going through the valve means going through a double S curve, one into the valve, and one out of the valve. I think someone before had mentioned how many degrees of a bend each is. When using the valve the curves are shape differently, and if you have a 90/90 valve it's an over 90 degree bend followed by a short bend back as part of an S curve at the end, with the reverse on the other side. With the 90/180, you get a continuous 180 curve, which in some ways might be better. Of course then there are valves like the OpenFlow that have the upper knuckles go off in some other direction.
Anyway, not sure if that made sense. I would worry much more about what the valve is than what the wrap is, especially with Bach trombones.
- Trav1s
- Posts: 473
- Joined: Jul 26, 2018
I'm a fan of the closed wrap design and find the valve itself to be more of the bottleneck than the shape of the wrap. The Rotax valve conversion on my 79H was worth every penny.
- HurstOlds
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Oct 18, 2023
Great discussion here! I've only played on and owned a Bach with a traditional wrap. I always felt when I play with the trigger, the sound is very different. I always wondered if an open wrap would make a difference. From what I'm reading here, it sounds like the valve type is more important that the wrap type. I'll do some research on other types of valves....
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="HurstOlds"]Great discussion here! I've only played on and owned a Bach with a traditional wrap. I always felt when I play with the trigger, the sound is very different. I always wondered if an open wrap would make a difference. From what I'm reading here, it sounds like the valve type is more important that the wrap type. I'll do some research on other types of valves....[/quote]
The whole reason we have so many different valves is because the Bach 42B was equipped with the same valve as the 36B, It's great in the 36B and too small on the 42B.
There will always be a difference between the valve side and the open side simply because you are playing through more tubing, and no valve can completely compensate for that.
Of the alternates, the Axial (Thayer) valve sometimes feels too open. Sometimes just boring out the ports in the plug can make enough of a difference. Just remember, changing the valve out on something like a Bach 42 is an expensive and sometimes irreversible process. This is part of the allure of the "boutique" horns like Edwards, Shires, etc. where all you need is an interchangeable valve section to try each.
The whole reason we have so many different valves is because the Bach 42B was equipped with the same valve as the 36B, It's great in the 36B and too small on the 42B.
There will always be a difference between the valve side and the open side simply because you are playing through more tubing, and no valve can completely compensate for that.
Of the alternates, the Axial (Thayer) valve sometimes feels too open. Sometimes just boring out the ports in the plug can make enough of a difference. Just remember, changing the valve out on something like a Bach 42 is an expensive and sometimes irreversible process. This is part of the allure of the "boutique" horns like Edwards, Shires, etc. where all you need is an interchangeable valve section to try each.
- HurstOlds
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Oct 18, 2023
[quote="BGuttman"]The whole reason we have so many different valves is because the Bach 42B was equipped with the same valve as the 36B, It's great in the 36B and too small on the 42B.
There will always be a difference between the valve side and the open side simply because you are playing through more tubing, and no valve can completely compensate for that.
Of the alternates, the Axial (Thayer) valve sometimes feels too open. Sometimes just boring out the ports in the plug can make enough of a difference. Just remember, changing the valve out on something like a Bach 42 is an expensive and sometimes irreversible process. This is part of the allure of the "boutique" horns like Edwards, Shires, etc. where all you need is an interchangeable valve section to try each.[/quote]
Interesting, that would explain why some horns look like they have threaded crossmembers. Sounds like you can unscrew, pull/replace the valve portion and away you go. I would definitely want to seek out a shop or place where I could try out some other valve options, before I would pull the trigger on a replacement or upgrade on my current horns.
I was just looking up that Instrument Innovations axial valve you mentioned in this thread. That looks REALLY nice!
There will always be a difference between the valve side and the open side simply because you are playing through more tubing, and no valve can completely compensate for that.
Of the alternates, the Axial (Thayer) valve sometimes feels too open. Sometimes just boring out the ports in the plug can make enough of a difference. Just remember, changing the valve out on something like a Bach 42 is an expensive and sometimes irreversible process. This is part of the allure of the "boutique" horns like Edwards, Shires, etc. where all you need is an interchangeable valve section to try each.[/quote]
Interesting, that would explain why some horns look like they have threaded crossmembers. Sounds like you can unscrew, pull/replace the valve portion and away you go. I would definitely want to seek out a shop or place where I could try out some other valve options, before I would pull the trigger on a replacement or upgrade on my current horns.
I was just looking up that Instrument Innovations axial valve you mentioned in this thread. That looks REALLY nice!
- timbone
- Posts: 240
- Joined: Apr 30, 2018
FWIW- a little curve here. I was involved in R&D for Courtois and the AC440 (which is an 88H on steroids) and was developed as an open and closed wrap. In the end the close wrap won. I was with Tim Anderson at CCM with Christian Giancenco from the symphony and we took a Courtois ac420, Bach Greenhoe, both open wraps and the AC440 - and after about an hour of testing, the 440 was the winner. What we realized there, and through discussion with Jacques Mauger, is that the closed wrap had more focus and power because of the added solder joints in the closed wrap. That may also explain how some of the older players that played closed wraps sounded so good and so ballsy.
- although
- Posts: 72
- Joined: Feb 13, 2019
My Reynolds Stereophonic definitely collects water in it's F tubing. I do the french horn thing every now and then to empty it. But, it's a bit of an oddball :)
- dbwhitaker
- Posts: 196
- Joined: May 16, 2019
I frequently have to drain water from my Holton TR-185 (single). The F tube slides on and off easily so I usually pull it. I do the french horn thing with my TR-180 because the F slide doesn't come off as easily.
- jhousdan
- Posts: 20
- Joined: Oct 04, 2023
Every once in a blue moon, water gathers in the crook of my F-valve on my YBL-613G. It's never been a problem, but If I'm playing a long piece where I've got a decent break in the middle, I will pull the tuning slide and upend the horn to clear it just in case. In 24 years of playing on that horn, I've maybe *actually* heard water in the valve once.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
When I was using a 613 at work, I had to empty the water from the F valve every set. On my 3B/F and 608, I have to empty pretty often as well.