Looking to Replace Bach 5GB
- tyrannothesaurus
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Jul 19, 2023
Hey all. My current workhorse is a Bach 5GB; previously it was a Bach 4GB. I played the 4GB a few years back to get a deeper sound, and the “B” rim was comfortable to play with my overbite and crooked teeth. I had braces put on and decided to use the 5GB while I was putting out less sound.
That era has passed, thankfully. However, these Bach “B” rims are simply not doing it for my playing anymore. They seem to have a pronounced high point and don’t distribute widely across the face (uncomfortable and squirrelly!). I’ve played a few flatter, wider rims; the Denis Wick is comfortable, and seems to get a clear response on the front of the note (as opposed to the “squirrelly” nature of the 5GB rim). These are just how the mouthpiece responds for me. :idk:
The depth of the 5GB is also a great depth for solo/chamber work (with my current playing). I could use something a tad deeper to smooth out the sound in a symphonic/ensemble context, or something with a more open throat. The Bach seems tight in the back.
I have not played through a pile of mouthpieces as many veterans would suggest. This sounds like a wonderful time! Unfortunately I do not have access to a plethora of mouthpieces… it’ll be a few months before I’m at any conferences. There’s no issue in ordering/returning mouthpieces, just trying to get a starting point before making the plunge :good:
What mouthpiece makes would the trombone gurus recommend? I’ve looked into the Greg Black symphony line, the Griego artist series, the Laskey Alessi series. The goal is something that achieves a more stable, rounded sound, with a more comfortable rim (subjective yes, just something without a pronounce high point as the 5GB has) and wider inner diameter. Thinking 4G inner diameter with a cup depth slightly deeper or throat slightly more open at the front, and slightly more weight.
Thanks for reading a long post and all the advice folks <EMOJI seq="1f64f-1f3fb" tseq="1f64f-1f3fb">🙏🏻</EMOJI>
That era has passed, thankfully. However, these Bach “B” rims are simply not doing it for my playing anymore. They seem to have a pronounced high point and don’t distribute widely across the face (uncomfortable and squirrelly!). I’ve played a few flatter, wider rims; the Denis Wick is comfortable, and seems to get a clear response on the front of the note (as opposed to the “squirrelly” nature of the 5GB rim). These are just how the mouthpiece responds for me. :idk:
The depth of the 5GB is also a great depth for solo/chamber work (with my current playing). I could use something a tad deeper to smooth out the sound in a symphonic/ensemble context, or something with a more open throat. The Bach seems tight in the back.
I have not played through a pile of mouthpieces as many veterans would suggest. This sounds like a wonderful time! Unfortunately I do not have access to a plethora of mouthpieces… it’ll be a few months before I’m at any conferences. There’s no issue in ordering/returning mouthpieces, just trying to get a starting point before making the plunge :good:
What mouthpiece makes would the trombone gurus recommend? I’ve looked into the Greg Black symphony line, the Griego artist series, the Laskey Alessi series. The goal is something that achieves a more stable, rounded sound, with a more comfortable rim (subjective yes, just something without a pronounce high point as the 5GB has) and wider inner diameter. Thinking 4G inner diameter with a cup depth slightly deeper or throat slightly more open at the front, and slightly more weight.
Thanks for reading a long post and all the advice folks <EMOJI seq="1f64f-1f3fb" tseq="1f64f-1f3fb">🙏🏻</EMOJI>
- WilliamLang
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Nov 22, 2019
The Greg Black Kitzman model (5g with a .277 backbore) is a nice option leaning towards the Symphonic size, but still with some sparkle and clarity.
Doug's XT104/105 with a G series cup and shank are beautiful take on the 5g size. Especially great for chamber and solo stuff.
For comfort, and my own personal choice, I gotta say that LI Brass have the most rounded rims, to the point where they feel larger than listed size. The new 525 Romero might be a good piece to try, same with the Romero 550 if you want more of a 4G rim feel.
Doug's XT104/105 with a G series cup and shank are beautiful take on the 5g size. Especially great for chamber and solo stuff.
For comfort, and my own personal choice, I gotta say that LI Brass have the most rounded rims, to the point where they feel larger than listed size. The new 525 Romero might be a good piece to try, same with the Romero 550 if you want more of a 4G rim feel.
- tyrannothesaurus
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Jul 19, 2023
[quote="WilliamLang"]The Greg Black Kitzman model (5g with a .277 backbore) is a nice option leaning towards the Symphonic size, but still with some sparkle and clarity.
Doug's XT104/105 with a G series cup and shank are beautiful take on the 5g size. Especially great for chamber and solo stuff.
For comfort, and my own personal choice, I gotta say that LI Brass have the most rounded rims, to the point where they feel larger than listed size. The new 525 Romero might be a good piece to try, same with the Romero 550 if you want more of a 4G rim feel.[/quote]
The whole Elliott system is so interesting. I’ll try and get in contact with him. I know a guy with some of his equipment; unfortunately, it’s for a Conn with a remington shank? :idk:
I’m having trouble finding info on the kitzman model. Is it just a light weight Greg Black 5G?
I have not heard of Long Island Brass! Time do some poking around
Doug's XT104/105 with a G series cup and shank are beautiful take on the 5g size. Especially great for chamber and solo stuff.
For comfort, and my own personal choice, I gotta say that LI Brass have the most rounded rims, to the point where they feel larger than listed size. The new 525 Romero might be a good piece to try, same with the Romero 550 if you want more of a 4G rim feel.[/quote]
The whole Elliott system is so interesting. I’ll try and get in contact with him. I know a guy with some of his equipment; unfortunately, it’s for a Conn with a remington shank? :idk:
I’m having trouble finding info on the kitzman model. Is it just a light weight Greg Black 5G?
I have not heard of Long Island Brass! Time do some poking around
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
If you like Wick rims, a 5BL might be a good replacement for the 5GB. I went from a Bach 4G to a Wick 4BL. The BL size is a little shallower and smaller than the AL size and might fit your needs.
Doug Elliott and Long Island Brass are both members here. If they are looking in, I hope they will post.
Doug's system is VERY customizable. You can dial in a rim size, rim shape, cup size, and backbore. I know William Lang suggested a 104 or 105 rim, but a 101 rim is (as far as Doug could measure) the same as a Bach 5G. I play a LT 102 with an E cup for smaller tenor and a G cup for symphonic tenor. Again, I come from a 4G size originally.
Good luck.
Doug Elliott and Long Island Brass are both members here. If they are looking in, I hope they will post.
Doug's system is VERY customizable. You can dial in a rim size, rim shape, cup size, and backbore. I know William Lang suggested a 104 or 105 rim, but a 101 rim is (as far as Doug could measure) the same as a Bach 5G. I play a LT 102 with an E cup for smaller tenor and a G cup for symphonic tenor. Again, I come from a 4G size originally.
Good luck.
- WilliamLang
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Nov 22, 2019
The Kitzman is indeed a Greg Black 5G L .277 - I had to double check when I got home
[quote="tyrannothesaurus"]<QUOTE author="WilliamLang" post_id="222893" time="1697661678" user_id="8089">
I’m having trouble finding info on the kitzman model. Is it just a light weight Greg Black 5G?
I have not heard of Long Island Brass! Time do some poking around[/quote]</QUOTE>
[quote="tyrannothesaurus"]<QUOTE author="WilliamLang" post_id="222893" time="1697661678" user_id="8089">
I’m having trouble finding info on the kitzman model. Is it just a light weight Greg Black 5G?
I have not heard of Long Island Brass! Time do some poking around[/quote]</QUOTE>
- Trav1s
- Posts: 473
- Joined: Jul 26, 2018
[quote="BGuttman"]If you like Wick rims, a 5BL might be a good replacement for the 5GB. I went from a Bach 4G to a Wick 4BL. The BL size is a little shallower and smaller than the AL size and might fit your needs.
Doug Elliott and Long Island Brass are both members here. If they are looking in, I hope they will post.
Doug's system is VERY customizable. You can dial in a rim size, rim shape, cup size, and backbore. I know William Lang suggested a 104 or 105 rim, but a 101 rim is (as far as Doug could measure) the same as a Bach 5G. I play a LT 102 with an E cup for smaller tenor and a G cup for symphonic tenor. Again, I come from a 4G size originally.
Good luck.[/quote]
Another Elliot player here after years on a Schilke 51B, he fit me on LT102 rim. It is indeed similar to the 5G that came with my Benge 165F.
I can use the same 102 rim on all horns and find it a great fit on the medium and large tenors...
LT102/F+/G8 on .547"
LT102/D/D4 on .522"
LT101/C+/D2 on .485/500"
Doug Elliott and Long Island Brass are both members here. If they are looking in, I hope they will post.
Doug's system is VERY customizable. You can dial in a rim size, rim shape, cup size, and backbore. I know William Lang suggested a 104 or 105 rim, but a 101 rim is (as far as Doug could measure) the same as a Bach 5G. I play a LT 102 with an E cup for smaller tenor and a G cup for symphonic tenor. Again, I come from a 4G size originally.
Good luck.[/quote]
Another Elliot player here after years on a Schilke 51B, he fit me on LT102 rim. It is indeed similar to the 5G that came with my Benge 165F.
I can use the same 102 rim on all horns and find it a great fit on the medium and large tenors...
LT102/F+/G8 on .547"
LT102/D/D4 on .522"
LT101/C+/D2 on .485/500"
- tyrannothesaurus
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Jul 19, 2023
[quote="BGuttman"]If you like Wick rims, a 5BL might be a good replacement for the 5GB. I went from a Bach 4G to a Wick 4BL. The BL size is a little shallower and smaller than the AL size and might fit your needs.
Doug Elliott and Long Island Brass are both members here. If they are looking in, I hope they will post.
Doug's system is VERY customizable. You can dial in a rim size, rim shape, cup size, and backbore. I know William Lang suggested a 104 or 105 rim, but a 101 rim is (as far as Doug could measure) the same as a Bach 5G. I play a LT 102 with an E cup for smaller tenor and a G cup for symphonic tenor. Again, I come from a 4G size originally.
Good luck.[/quote]
I’m not huge on the Denis Wick cups for the trombone. Rim is very comfortable however, I love their response on the euphonium!
He may have suggested the 104/105 because I mentioned going for a larger rim. I had switched to smaller while I had braces, but generally I use a Bach 4 size rim.
Thanks for your advice. What’s a good way to contact Mr. Elliott? I sent him an email a while back, but I may have had the wrong email address/caught him in a busy period.
Doug Elliott and Long Island Brass are both members here. If they are looking in, I hope they will post.
Doug's system is VERY customizable. You can dial in a rim size, rim shape, cup size, and backbore. I know William Lang suggested a 104 or 105 rim, but a 101 rim is (as far as Doug could measure) the same as a Bach 5G. I play a LT 102 with an E cup for smaller tenor and a G cup for symphonic tenor. Again, I come from a 4G size originally.
Good luck.[/quote]
I’m not huge on the Denis Wick cups for the trombone. Rim is very comfortable however, I love their response on the euphonium!
He may have suggested the 104/105 because I mentioned going for a larger rim. I had switched to smaller while I had braces, but generally I use a Bach 4 size rim.
Thanks for your advice. What’s a good way to contact Mr. Elliott? I sent him an email a while back, but I may have had the wrong email address/caught him in a busy period.
- tyrannothesaurus
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Jul 19, 2023
[quote="WilliamLang"]The Kitzman is indeed a Greg Black 5G L .277 - I had to double check when I got home
[/quote]
Still slightly larger than the Bach 5 throat! From a numbers perspective at least. Interesting.
What do you think about the light vs. regular weight Greg Blacks?
[/quote]
Still slightly larger than the Bach 5 throat! From a numbers perspective at least. Interesting.
What do you think about the light vs. regular weight Greg Blacks?
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Thanks for your advice. What’s a good way to contact Mr. Elliott? I sent him an email a while back, but I may have had the wrong email address/caught him in a busy period.
Doug has an e-mail link on his Web Site: www.dougelliottmouthpieces.com.
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
Not to hijack the thread but what is the difference between a DE LT104 G8 and an XT104 G8?
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
XT has a larger cup volume. Inner diameter of the XT cup is wider than the LT cup.
- WilliamLang
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Nov 22, 2019
I personally have felt that the regular weight GBs are more suited for a modern orchestral sound, and the light weight can be a little more versatile for chamber/solo/commercial music. I wouldn't say it's a huge difference though, after all, Kitzman sounded like a million bucks.
[quote="tyrannothesaurus"]<QUOTE author="WilliamLang" post_id="222904" time="1697669148" user_id="8089">
The Kitzman is indeed a Greg Black 5G L .277 - I had to double check when I got home
[/quote]
Still slightly larger than the Bach 5 throat! From a numbers perspective at least. Interesting.
What do you think about the light vs. regular weight Greg Blacks?
</QUOTE>
[quote="tyrannothesaurus"]<QUOTE author="WilliamLang" post_id="222904" time="1697669148" user_id="8089">
The Kitzman is indeed a Greg Black 5G L .277 - I had to double check when I got home
[/quote]
Still slightly larger than the Bach 5 throat! From a numbers perspective at least. Interesting.
What do you think about the light vs. regular weight Greg Blacks?
</QUOTE>
- tyrannothesaurus
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Jul 19, 2023
[quote="WilliamLang"]I personally have felt that the regular weight GBs are more suited for a modern orchestral sound, and the light weight can be a little more versatile for chamber/solo/commercial music. I wouldn't say it's a huge difference though, after all, Kitzman sounded like a million bucks.
<QUOTE author="tyrannothesaurus" post_id="222939" time="1697720151" user_id="16833">
Still slightly larger than the Bach 5 throat! From a numbers perspective at least. Interesting.
What do you think about the light vs. regular weight Greg Blacks?[/quote]
</QUOTE>
Interesting! Thanks for answering my myriad questions.
I've just realized I'm within 3 hours of the Warburton factory... It would be silly of me to not go play their mouthpieces! I understand the Warburtons and Greg Blacks play quite unlike each other however; I've toyed with some Warburtons in the past and enjoyed them. Do they stack up to each other in any way? Is the Warburton heavier than the standard Greg Blacks?
<QUOTE author="tyrannothesaurus" post_id="222939" time="1697720151" user_id="16833">
Still slightly larger than the Bach 5 throat! From a numbers perspective at least. Interesting.
What do you think about the light vs. regular weight Greg Blacks?[/quote]
</QUOTE>
Interesting! Thanks for answering my myriad questions.
I've just realized I'm within 3 hours of the Warburton factory... It would be silly of me to not go play their mouthpieces! I understand the Warburtons and Greg Blacks play quite unlike each other however; I've toyed with some Warburtons in the past and enjoyed them. Do they stack up to each other in any way? Is the Warburton heavier than the standard Greg Blacks?
- WilliamLang
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Nov 22, 2019
Iirc finetails is a big Warburton proponent here - I haven't had the chance to try their pieces yet.
- BrianJohnston
- Posts: 1165
- Joined: Jul 11, 2020
[quote="tyrannothesaurus"]What mouthpiece makes would the trombone gurus recommend? The goal is something that achieves a more stable, rounded sound, with a more comfortable rim[/quote]
Similar in feel to a 5G, but a more stable, rounded sound, with a more comfortable rim:
Here are the brands that come to mind based on what you're looking for:
Greg Blacks
Warburton
Laskey
Ultimate Brass
Griego
Similar in feel to a 5G, but a more stable, rounded sound, with a more comfortable rim:
Here are the brands that come to mind based on what you're looking for:
Greg Blacks
Warburton
Laskey
Ultimate Brass
Griego