Conn 88H or Bach 42B

jasam · 2023-10-23 12:09 p.m.

Hi, all.

My son is looking for an F attachment trombone, and we’ve basically narrowed it down to either a Conn 88H or a Bach Stradivarius 42B. The two particular ones we’re looking at are a 1986 Conn 88H, or a Bach 42B. Conn is listed as very good condition, Bach is fair; please see photos below. Was 1986 a good year for the Conns? I’ve read a bit here about QC issues with them over time. The Bach has no year given. At the moment, he’s using a King small bore F trombone Thank you for your input, Frank

Conn 88H

Bach 42B

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2023-10-23 12:24 p.m.

1986 was not a particularly good year Conn, but as the horn might have had work on it, you really have to play it to know. You can't say that it's a bad horn because it was made in 1986. Bach also has QC problems. It really depends on what he wants to do. The difference isn't that big for young students. The Conn will probably play more like the King. If you can't physically test the horn, I'd pick the Conn.

jasam · by **jasam** » 2023-10-23 12:37 p.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]1986 was not a particularly good year Conn, but as the horn might have had work on it, you really have to play it to know. You can't say that it's a bad horn because it was made in 1986. Bach also has QC problems. It really depends on what he wants to do. The difference isn't that big for young students. The Conn will probably play more like the King. If you can't physically test the horn, I'd pick the Conn.[/quote]

Thank you. Yes, we can’t test either of them. Too far away.

spencercarran · by **spencercarran** » 2023-10-23 1:09 p.m.

Hm, is the 1986 Conn after production moved to Eastlake, or still in the Abilene days?

That Bach looks unusually rough for its age (based on valve linkage style, can't be older than late 90s).

Either is likely acceptable for an advanced high school student, neither is likely to be the last horn he'll want in his life if he becomes more serious or continues in a college music program. Any price difference between the two may be a relevant consideration.

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2023-10-23 1:24 p.m.

I think 1986 is Eastlake, and the quality was definitely improving over Abilene at that time. I would lean towards the Conn if I couldn't play test. Especially coming from a small bore - the Conn should be a little easier to handle for a younger and/or smaller person.

harrisonreed · 2023-10-23 1:28 p.m.

If you have the budget to buy those you might be able to get a Shires Q, which might get you more horn for* the money.

Both the 42B and 88H are legendary, but they are also quirky as hell compared to the offerings from the boutique makers. The 88H design has a squirrelly and difficult upper register and ... interesting intonation between partials. The 42B, for my money, might sound great out front but it gives the player almost no feedback and feels terrible to play with the traditional valve.

You *might* be able to get a much more forgiving horn for the same price, going with a new Shires Q or used boutique horn.

*Edited spelling

AtomicClock · by **AtomicClock** » 2023-10-23 1:46 p.m.

Honestly, I would choose based on the ergonomics of the left-hand grip. I personally HATE the Conn-style valve levers. My thumb needs to be lower than it allows. Make sure your son considers this aspect.

Trav1s · by **Trav1s** » 2023-10-23 1:56 p.m.

[quote="spencercarran"]<I>Hm, is the 1986 Conn after production moved to Eastlake, or still in the Abilene days?</I>

That Bach looks unusually rough for its age (based on valve linkage style, can't be older than late 90s).

Either is likely acceptable for an advanced high school student, neither is likely to be the last horn he'll want in his life if he becomes more serious or continues in a college music program. Any price difference between the two may be a relevant consideration.[/quote]

If the 88H was an Eastlake horn, I'd go with that. I agree, the Bach looks really rough. :eek:

OneTon · by **OneTon** » 2023-10-23 2:01 p.m.

I had an 88H in the early 1970's while I was in college. I could get a really beautiful sound out of it. It got stolen. I replaced it with a Bach 42B similar to what is shown because I liked the slide better. Competition and expectations have improved slide set ups and slide repairs since then. Either horn is a good choice and neither should hold anyone back.

I liked the string on the valve on the 88H. It is quiet and only required string replacement every few years with no adjustment required after it was set. On the 42B, I packed the ball and socket on the f-attachment linkage with vaseline once a week when I cleaned the slide and it was fine. There are people that have played their entire career professional careers on these horns.

Lacquer loss can happen to either of these models but the 42B may be slightly more prone to it. I have a Bach LT6 that I bought new. It is holding up a little better than this 42B but not by much. And I wipe a horn down with a t-shirt every time I play it before I put it away. A "good" horn may simply have been played a lot because it was "good." Lacquer loss does not affect form, fit, or function.

jasam · by **jasam** » 2023-10-23 3:40 p.m.

Thank you all for the replies. One thing I’ve noted from what I’ve read on the forums, is that a lot of people lean towards Conn, particularly when you’re not able to try out different bones.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2023-10-23 3:54 p.m.

[quote="jasam"]Thank you all for the replies. One thing I’ve noted from what I’ve read on the forums, is that a lot of people lean towards Conn, particularly when you’re not able to try out different bones.[/quote]

Conn's build quality from the Elkhart and Eastlake periods was good. The Abilene period could be spotty.

Yamahas from after 1980 are always good.

jasam · by **jasam** » 2023-10-23 5:04 p.m.

Thank you, Bruce.

etbone · by **etbone** » 2023-10-23 5:32 p.m.

As to year built on the Bach, get the serial number. You can search on the web, estimate build date (won't be exact)

How much for them?

The Bach will need some work. Valve trigger is mis aligned. Assume rotor is worn.

Look in the forum ads. You can find some trusted sellers.

jasam · by **jasam** » 2023-10-23 5:57 p.m.

Thanks, etbone. Actually, we found a second Conn, an 88HO; they’re both about $1200.

jasam · by **jasam** » 2023-10-23 9:14 p.m.

I also just received the serial number for the 1986 Conn: GB670164. According to horn-u-copia.net, it's from Feb. 1976, if I understand the code, but the seller mentioned that Conn themselves have a somewhat different set of years, so that's why he mentioned 1986, as well, to cover the differing listings.

Mamaposaune · by **Mamaposaune** » 2023-10-23 11:05 p.m.

That new style Bach case has only been out for about 10 years. If it is original to the horn, it has lived a VERY rough life. With that much wear on the outside, I would be concerned with the interior as well. Has it been cleaned and maintained? There could be significant damage to the main slide and rotary valve.

jasam · by **jasam** » 2023-10-24 12:34 a.m.

[quote="AtomicClock"]Honestly, I would choose based on the ergonomics of the left-hand grip. I personally HATE the Conn-style valve levers. My thumb needs to be lower than it allows. Make sure your son considers this aspect.[/quote]
Thank you; I'll point that out to him.

jasam · by **jasam** » 2023-10-24 12:35 a.m.

[quote="Mamaposaune"]That new style Bach case has only been out for about 10 years. If it is original to the horn, it has lived a VERY rough life. With that much wear on the outside, I would be concerned with the interior as well. Has it been cleaned and maintained? There could be significant damage to the main slide and rotary valve.[/quote]

Thank you. Yes, we've basically passed on that one. Way too rough around the edges for that kind of money.

spencercarran · by **spencercarran** » 2023-10-24 11:00 a.m.

[quote="jasam"]I also just received the serial number for the 1986 Conn: GB670164. According to horn-u-copia.net, it's from Feb. 1976, if I understand the code, but the seller mentioned that Conn themselves have a somewhat different set of years, so that's why he mentioned 1986, as well, to cover the differing listings.[/quote]
That makes it an Abilene. Might or might not be a good player, won't have much resale value.

Get the 88HO; that variation was only introduced after the move to Eastlake and came with a few other design tweaks to make it a bit more modern. Build quality should be trustworthy, if it hasn't been abused.

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2023-10-24 11:47 a.m.

Since he plays on a King now, have you considered a King 4B-F? Back in the 70s they were direct competition to the Bach and Conn.

atopper333 · by **atopper333** » 2023-10-24 12:55 p.m.

[quote="Kingfan"]Since he plays on a King now, have you considered a King 4B-F? Back in the 70s they were direct competition to the Bach and Conn.[/quote]

Plus one for the 4-bf! I played Holton, Bach, and Conn…never thought to go for the King until recommended by Mr. Doug Bert at brass exchange…I would definitely consider it!

jasam · by **jasam** » 2023-10-24 3:14 p.m.

Thank you all for the additional input! The King’s also seem a bit more affordable in comparison to the others.

Trav1s · by **Trav1s** » 2023-10-24 3:19 p.m.

Benge 165F or 190F are worth considering

etbone · by **etbone** » 2023-10-24 3:20 p.m.

[quote="jasam"]I also just received the serial number for the 1986 Conn: GB670164. According to horn-u-copia.net, it's from Feb. 1976, if I understand the code, but the seller mentioned that Conn themselves have a somewhat different set of years, so that's why he mentioned 1986, as well, to cover the differing listings.[/quote]

Back in the seventies. MY number two seat (multiple all state player) had one of these. It was the equal to my

Elkhart. Main thing on old horns, it depends on who owned and played them.

MrHCinDE · by **MrHCinDE** » 2023-10-24 3:36 p.m.

[quote="atopper333"]Plus one for the 4-bf! I played Holton, Bach, and Conn…never thought to go for the King until recommended by Mr. Doug Bert at brass exchange…I would definitely consider it![/quote]

Since you mentioned Holton, they‘re also worth a look. Maybe the best bang-for-buck American large bore tenor trombone I‘ve tried. I got a TR-150 in usable condition for about $500 + shipping and import taxes.

Maybe check out Benge also.

Out of the Conn and the Bach I‘d probably go with the Conn if I didn‘t have the chance to try both.

The resale of an Abilene 88H might not be the same as an Elkhart but the purchase price mentioned reflects that as well.

Is there no way to try before you buy? Reputable stores should offer this, even if the purchase prices are a little higher.

jasam · by **jasam** » 2023-10-24 5:49 p.m.

Is there no way to try before you buy? Reputable stores should offer this, even if the purchase prices are a little higher.

No way to try, unfortunately. I called some stores around here, and none in stock.

We did find this 88H (I believe it's an HO, correct?) that's returnable and a good price, serial number 409706:

etbone · by **etbone** » 2023-10-24 6:03 p.m.

Yes it is an open wrap. Started being produce in mid nineties. I has the GEN II rotor valve. Great valve.

If it is an 88ho, it will have the standard bell. HT means the it is a thinned bell.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2023-10-24 6:41 p.m.

I think the 88HO is definitely a better choice than both. Those are Eastlake era so they should be pretty consistent.

Trav1s · by **Trav1s** » 2023-10-24 6:54 p.m.

[quote="Trav1s"]Benge 165F or 190F are worth considering[/quote]

great seller right here: <LINK_TEXT text="viewtopic.php?p=214673&hilit=165#p214673">https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?p=214673&hilit=165#p214673</LINK_TEXT>

Klimchak · by **Klimchak** » 2023-10-24 6:59 p.m.

[quote="Trav1s"]<QUOTE author="Trav1s" post_id="223416" time="1698175159" user_id="3564">
Benge 165F or 190F are worth considering[/quote]

great seller right here: <LINK_TEXT text="viewtopic.php?p=214673&hilit=165#p214673">https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?p=214673&hilit=165#p214673</LINK_TEXT>
</QUOTE>

Yes, great seller, but I actually already bought the 165 linked.

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Conn 88H or Bach 42B