Bach 39 alto with valve on german market
- heinzgries
- Posts: 250
- Joined: Apr 24, 2018
- MStarke
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Jan 01, 2019
I have seen that as well. First thought they mixed it up and it's a 36. But seems to really be an alto. Didn't know they exist with a valve!
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
I don't think it was made that way (with the valve). But a good tech can do some really good things. Looks like they made it more like the King 3B (bell brace between thumb and 1st finger).
- heinzgries
- Posts: 250
- Joined: Apr 24, 2018
think its custom made.
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
That looks shockingly stock for something that is obviously custom.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Matt K"]That looks shockingly stock for something that is obviously custom.[/quote]
If you were to look at the open wrap on my P-24G, if you didn't noticed that one brace is brass rather than nickel, you'd swear it left the factory that way.
If you were to look at the open wrap on my P-24G, if you didn't noticed that one brace is brass rather than nickel, you'd swear it left the factory that way.
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
[quote="Matt K"]That looks shockingly stock for something that is obviously custom.[/quote] True, but it's in Germany, where there are any number of top level custom makers who could have produced it. Looking at the markings on the bell it definitely looks like it was refinished. Maybe they used the valve from a Bach 36? That would probably be way too big though.
The tuning slides have been made longer. Definitely really interesting.
The tuning slides have been made longer. Definitely really interesting.
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
Wow. Corporation, too. If that's an aftermarket mod, it was done insanely well, it really looks like you would imagine a factory-made custom Eb/Bb 39 should look like.
- MrHCinDE
- Posts: 1039
- Joined: Jul 01, 2018
Looks like some rings turned on the tuning slide ferrules, I‘ve seen similar markings on other work from small German makers, including my own horn! I don‘t think I‘ve seen a factory Bach with such markings but don‘t think they‘d be unique enough to identify a craftsperson.
Maybe someone else knows better?
Maybe someone else knows better?
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="tbonesullivan"]Maybe they used the valve from a Bach 36? That would probably be way too big though.[/quote]
A .468" rotor would be easy to source; that's the most common bore for French horns. If you wanted to go a size larger, that would be more difficult to find. Not many rotors made between French horn size and medium bore trombone size, and I think the latter might be a little too large for this application.
A .468" rotor would be easy to source; that's the most common bore for French horns. If you wanted to go a size larger, that would be more difficult to find. Not many rotors made between French horn size and medium bore trombone size, and I think the latter might be a little too large for this application.
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
[quote="JohnL"]Not many rotors made between French horn size and medium bore trombone size, and I think the latter might be a little too large for this application.[/quote]
Quite a lot of options in Germany, and a wide range of smallish rotors for non-American-scaled applications.
It looks like nice work but, as mentioned re the bell stamp, very much of the German buffed-to-flawless-death refinishing school.
Quite a lot of options in Germany, and a wide range of smallish rotors for non-American-scaled applications.
It looks like nice work but, as mentioned re the bell stamp, very much of the German buffed-to-flawless-death refinishing school.
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
[quote="MrHCinDE"]Looks like some rings turned on the tuning slide ferrules, I‘ve seen similar markings on other work from small German makers, including my own horn! I don‘t think I‘ve seen a factory Bach with such markings but don‘t think they‘d be unique enough to identify a craftsperson.
Maybe someone else knows better?[/quote]
Yes the tuning slide ferrules strike me as clearly German, also the small braces on the attachment wrap don't look like Bach and are exactly the style you'd find on a German instrument (although there's nothing specifically German about them).
But they did a fantastic job making it look quintessentially Bach-y with the wrap and the valve cap style (although it could be a Bach 36 valve, I guess).
I also find very cute and funny that there's about 1cm of the original neckpipe between the valve and the tuning slide female leg.
Maybe someone else knows better?[/quote]
Yes the tuning slide ferrules strike me as clearly German, also the small braces on the attachment wrap don't look like Bach and are exactly the style you'd find on a German instrument (although there's nothing specifically German about them).
But they did a fantastic job making it look quintessentially Bach-y with the wrap and the valve cap style (although it could be a Bach 36 valve, I guess).
I also find very cute and funny that there's about 1cm of the original neckpipe between the valve and the tuning slide female leg.
- octavposaune
- Posts: 160
- Joined: Jul 04, 2018
I have seen a Bb valve 39 recently somewhere. Again a custom job. I own a 39G which I made the bell removable through OE Thayer style disconnect hardware. To maybe put a trill valve on.
There is one big negative to Bach 39s. The intonation is all over the place, but honestly it is similar to German trombones. The flatist note is the 3rd harmonic (Bb), 5th harmonic is high etc...The only other semi modern Bach like this is the bespoke 45 (I also have one).
The timbre is small and trumpety (which I like), the small bore is easy to play, response is usually good, just the weird intonation gets people.
The low register isnt particularly great so adding a Bb valve is more of a "oh Schmidt" emergency brain fart valve than a great extension of the low register.
From my experience in horn assembly work, I can say I really dont think that instrument is in Eb. The tuning slide is quite different and longer than stock. This instrument might be one of those cases were someone changed it to D. Also the bend looks to be a wider span than the tiny stock 39 tuning slide.
Anyways, what a neat horn to look at.
Benn
There is one big negative to Bach 39s. The intonation is all over the place, but honestly it is similar to German trombones. The flatist note is the 3rd harmonic (Bb), 5th harmonic is high etc...The only other semi modern Bach like this is the bespoke 45 (I also have one).
The timbre is small and trumpety (which I like), the small bore is easy to play, response is usually good, just the weird intonation gets people.
The low register isnt particularly great so adding a Bb valve is more of a "oh Schmidt" emergency brain fart valve than a great extension of the low register.
From my experience in horn assembly work, I can say I really dont think that instrument is in Eb. The tuning slide is quite different and longer than stock. This instrument might be one of those cases were someone changed it to D. Also the bend looks to be a wider span than the tiny stock 39 tuning slide.
Anyways, what a neat horn to look at.
Benn
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
[quote="octavposaune"]
From my experience in horn assembly work, I can say I really dont think that instrument is in Eb. The tuning slide is quite different and longer than stock. This instrument might be one of those cases were someone changed it to D. Also the bend looks to be a wider span than the tiny stock 39 tuning slide.
Anyways, what a neat horn to look at.
Benn[/quote]
I think you're right. Upon closer inspection, it looks to me that the bell flare could be both longer and possibly wider than a 39 bell? Hard to tell from pictures of course.
From my experience in horn assembly work, I can say I really dont think that instrument is in Eb. The tuning slide is quite different and longer than stock. This instrument might be one of those cases were someone changed it to D. Also the bend looks to be a wider span than the tiny stock 39 tuning slide.
Anyways, what a neat horn to look at.
Benn[/quote]
I think you're right. Upon closer inspection, it looks to me that the bell flare could be both longer and possibly wider than a 39 bell? Hard to tell from pictures of course.
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
[quote="LeTromboniste"]I think you're right. Upon closer inspection, it looks to me that the bell flare could be both longer and possibly wider than a 39 bell? Hard to tell from pictures of course.[/quote] It is stamped Model 39 on the bell though, which is almost worn away but definitely still there.
The bell however looks like maybe it was moved an inch or so forward? And then the entire bell section reworked? The distance between the slide receiver and the start of the outer tuning slide is WAY shorter than the normal gooseneck length.
The bell however looks like maybe it was moved an inch or so forward? And then the entire bell section reworked? The distance between the slide receiver and the start of the outer tuning slide is WAY shorter than the normal gooseneck length.
- heinzgries
- Posts: 250
- Joined: Apr 24, 2018
i have wrote to the seller. Here his answer.
"Hello, unfortunately I can't say whether it was originally built that way. I bought the trombone about 20 years ago from an instrument maker who had traded it in from a professional musician.
Best regards"
"Hello, unfortunately I can't say whether it was originally built that way. I bought the trombone about 20 years ago from an instrument maker who had traded it in from a professional musician.
Best regards"