Bach 50B2 rescue mission
- Estraven
- Posts: 122
- Joined: May 05, 2021
Folks,
Going to look at this mid-70’s 50B2 tomorrow on my way to Arizona. I am told that it has spent the past 40 years in a closet, seems like a lot of wear for only ten years’ use. I’m going in fully armed and dangerous with mouthpiece, borescope and lubricant assortment. I’d be astonished if the tuning slides still move; if they don’t then there’s no easy way to test the valves for seal. I’ve already noticed the missing rotor stop arm lock ring and incorrect screw, also it seems that the “F” thumb roller screw is missing; to me, these are signs of neglect, lack of care, or simply lack of money.
Am I crazy? Probably. Opinions? Suggested price range? I know, it’s not a Duo Gravis or a Shires Q-series et al, but down here we have to work with what we are given in the market.
Going to look at this mid-70’s 50B2 tomorrow on my way to Arizona. I am told that it has spent the past 40 years in a closet, seems like a lot of wear for only ten years’ use. I’m going in fully armed and dangerous with mouthpiece, borescope and lubricant assortment. I’d be astonished if the tuning slides still move; if they don’t then there’s no easy way to test the valves for seal. I’ve already noticed the missing rotor stop arm lock ring and incorrect screw, also it seems that the “F” thumb roller screw is missing; to me, these are signs of neglect, lack of care, or simply lack of money.
Am I crazy? Probably. Opinions? Suggested price range? I know, it’s not a Duo Gravis or a Shires Q-series et al, but down here we have to work with what we are given in the market.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
for a horn like that (and I bought one a couple years ago just about the same), I don't spend more than like $1500. They can be good but need work to be actually useful.
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
With the old lacquer that Bach used and if it wasn't cleaned after use, that could easily happen after 10 years. I've seen worse after 5 from people with acidic sweat that don't wipe down their horns at all.
Condition of the slide will be key here. The lock ring on the F-attachment linkage is missing, and it looks like the screw for the valve stem has been replaced with something else. I also see some dings on the attachment wraps.
Condition of the slide will be key here. The lock ring on the F-attachment linkage is missing, and it looks like the screw for the valve stem has been replaced with something else. I also see some dings on the attachment wraps.
- GabrielRice
- Posts: 1496
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Look for red rot on the slide tubes and crook; reddish spots with black dots in the center. The only remedy is to replace the parts. That said, just one or two spots, especially if they don't have pronounced black spots yet, can be kept at bay with good cleaning habits and dry storage.
From a playing standpoint, I always check the F# below middle C on Bachs. I've found that bad Bachs feel like a different instrument on that note. I don't know why.
From a playing standpoint, I always check the F# below middle C on Bachs. I've found that bad Bachs feel like a different instrument on that note. I don't know why.
- Estraven
- Posts: 122
- Joined: May 05, 2021
Thanks everyone, I really appreciate it. I did notice the missing/wrong hardware but not the (unusually-located) wrap dings.
I’m really sensitive to bad slides, on something like this it’s a deal-breaker for me.
I’m really sensitive to bad slides, on something like this it’s a deal-breaker for me.
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
I would check the bell, as to my eyes it looks a bit more "orange" than the rest of the brass, so it may be a Gold Brass Bell. That would definitely make it a bit more appealing to me.
Hopefully the slide was cleaned off after the last time it was used, or there can be dried up stuff inside. That's not hard to get rid of at all, but definitely gets in the way of making an assessment of how "good" it is.
Hopefully the slide was cleaned off after the last time it was used, or there can be dried up stuff inside. That's not hard to get rid of at all, but definitely gets in the way of making an assessment of how "good" it is.
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
Look for red rot, especially on the first yard of the slide.
Missing parts can be replaced, either something that will make do, or an OEM part.
If it’s been a closet horn, the valves will likely be stuck. It will be hard to assess what the horn sounds like.
Dents in the bell are a relatively easy repair for a good repair tech. Dents in crooks are more difficult, and dents in curved tubing near the valves—you either live with them, you trust a good tech, or you have the instrument taken apart and re-assembled.
Any of the things above, in addition to what other people have said, will diminish the price of the horn and will add to any repairs you wish to make. Make that clear to the seller. If the horn sounds good as a Bb horn (assuming the valves are stuck), you might have a great horn.
Missing parts can be replaced, either something that will make do, or an OEM part.
If it’s been a closet horn, the valves will likely be stuck. It will be hard to assess what the horn sounds like.
Dents in the bell are a relatively easy repair for a good repair tech. Dents in crooks are more difficult, and dents in curved tubing near the valves—you either live with them, you trust a good tech, or you have the instrument taken apart and re-assembled.
Any of the things above, in addition to what other people have said, will diminish the price of the horn and will add to any repairs you wish to make. Make that clear to the seller. If the horn sounds good as a Bb horn (assuming the valves are stuck), you might have a great horn.
- Estraven
- Posts: 122
- Joined: May 05, 2021
Well, I rescued it. The only real negative is some red rot, which I will live (or die) with. Bonus: came with two Corp. 1 1/2Gs (I had forgotten how big those things are) with, shall we say, lichen in their throats. Full report to follow in a month.
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
[quote="Estraven"]Well, I rescued it. The only real negative is some red rot, which I will live (or die) with. Bonus: came with two Corp. 1 1/2Gs (I had forgotten how big those things are) with, shall we say, lichen in their throats. Full report to follow in a month.[/quote]
Some of the Corp pieces can be great!
Some of the Corp pieces can be great!
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Excellent.
Now you have a fantastic beater to enjoy…. Or an excellent chassis ready to modernize.
Good luck in whichever path you decide. (FWIW, for me just splitting the triggers and getting the second in D was a HUGE help… but after a couple of years I wanted more)
Cheers,
Andy
Now you have a fantastic beater to enjoy…. Or an excellent chassis ready to modernize.
Good luck in whichever path you decide. (FWIW, for me just splitting the triggers and getting the second in D was a HUGE help… but after a couple of years I wanted more)
Cheers,
Andy
- Estraven
- Posts: 122
- Joined: May 05, 2021
One more bonus: along with some ancient Conn Formula 3, this was in the case (empty, unfortunately). My wife snatched it out of my hands as soon as she saw it.
- Estraven
- Posts: 122
- Joined: May 05, 2021
Getting a “D” extension is indeed high on my list, but there’s no one near me that I would trust to do it. I know that some of you out there can do it, so please reply to me via pm if you are interested in doing this for me. I really don’t want to send off the entire bell section to do it, maybe just the existing “E” slide?
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Estraven"]Getting a “D” extension is indeed high on my list, but there’s no one near me that I would trust to do it. I know that some of you out there can do it, so please reply to me via pm if you are interested in doing this for me. I really don’t want to send off the entire bell section to do it, maybe just the existing “E” slide?[/quote]
Lol… have you seen the Bach D extensions? I’d trust my 10 year old to make one. Take two inners, solder them about 1/2 inch into two outers. Don’t connect them together. Just put them between the existing slide and into the existing outers.
The hardest part is convincing somebody to do it if you don’t want to try it yourself. All four pieces raw can be about 4” long. I’d make the inners about 1/2” shorter than that, but just a nitpick.
Cheers,
Andy
Lol… have you seen the Bach D extensions? I’d trust my 10 year old to make one. Take two inners, solder them about 1/2 inch into two outers. Don’t connect them together. Just put them between the existing slide and into the existing outers.
The hardest part is convincing somebody to do it if you don’t want to try it yourself. All four pieces raw can be about 4” long. I’d make the inners about 1/2” shorter than that, but just a nitpick.
Cheers,
Andy
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
Out of curiosity, where is the red rot on the trombone? If it's not on the slide or in the valve wraps it may just be oxidation or acid bleed due to age.
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
[quote="Estraven"]One more bonus: along with some ancient Conn Formula 3, this was in the case (empty, unfortunately). My wife snatched it out of my hands as soon as she saw it.[/quote]
Ooooooh. Green label!
Ooooooh. Green label!
- Estraven
- Posts: 122
- Joined: May 05, 2021
[quote="tbonesullivan"]Out of curiosity, where is the red rot on the trombone? If it's not on the slide or in the valve wraps it may just be oxidation or acid bleed due to age.[/quote]
It’s on top of the bell stem. Just a few “chicken pox”. There is much more oxidation elsewhere.
It’s on top of the bell stem. Just a few “chicken pox”. There is much more oxidation elsewhere.
- octavposaune
- Posts: 160
- Joined: Jul 04, 2018
Bells dont red rot unless left in sea water. Thats lacquer damage. Slides typically red rot. The brass outers
Benn
Benn
- Estraven
- Posts: 122
- Joined: May 05, 2021
Well, here’s an update.
- Initial cleaning by me removed a prodigious amount of crud from the inside of the tubes. Some of the tubes looked like lichen was growing inside! Got all of that out.
- The tubes and valves cleaned up nicely, a vinegar bath got rid of almost all of the oxides. Now the valves work smoothly and seal well.
- The valve levers had tremendous wear at the hinge screw (did no one lube these things fifty years ago????), causing them to strike each other and make noise. Fortunately I found a forum member who had a set from when he had his 50B2 triggers split; long story short, they are on my horn now, and problem solved. Along the way I was turned on to these 5” non-marring pliers, which made adjusting the linkage ball cups a snap.
- Unfortunately, it needed a slide job as well as some truing work on the tuning slide tubes, so off it went to my tech. The results are excellent.
Still to be done: replace the cork lever pad with a thicker one so that the F valve opens correctly when the Eb lever is pulled, and re-check the valve timing. Also make a “D” extension for the Eb valve.
I am also still hunting for rotor stop arm screws. My tech tells me that they are actually #5-40 thread. He tried to make some out of brass rod stock, but the rod kept breaking while he was turning it on his lathe.
Shout-outs to:
- Burgerbob, for the lead on the non-marring pliers
- Elmsandr for the”D” slide extension details
- Largobone for the replacement levers
- Initial cleaning by me removed a prodigious amount of crud from the inside of the tubes. Some of the tubes looked like lichen was growing inside! Got all of that out.
- The tubes and valves cleaned up nicely, a vinegar bath got rid of almost all of the oxides. Now the valves work smoothly and seal well.
- The valve levers had tremendous wear at the hinge screw (did no one lube these things fifty years ago????), causing them to strike each other and make noise. Fortunately I found a forum member who had a set from when he had his 50B2 triggers split; long story short, they are on my horn now, and problem solved. Along the way I was turned on to these 5” non-marring pliers, which made adjusting the linkage ball cups a snap.
- Unfortunately, it needed a slide job as well as some truing work on the tuning slide tubes, so off it went to my tech. The results are excellent.
Still to be done: replace the cork lever pad with a thicker one so that the F valve opens correctly when the Eb lever is pulled, and re-check the valve timing. Also make a “D” extension for the Eb valve.
I am also still hunting for rotor stop arm screws. My tech tells me that they are actually #5-40 thread. He tried to make some out of brass rod stock, but the rod kept breaking while he was turning it on his lathe.
Shout-outs to:
- Burgerbob, for the lead on the non-marring pliers
- Elmsandr for the”D” slide extension details
- Largobone for the replacement levers