E pull
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
An E (or flat E) pull is used by the single-valve trombonist to play the low B, and sometimes the C just above it. Given the prevalence of double-valve basses, I doubt it's done much anymore. But for those of you who keep that tool in your arsenal, how much do you practice with the altered tuning? I imagine it takes a fair amount of time in the woodshed to develop muscle memory for those shifted positions... not just C and B, but Eb,D,Db as well.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
When I was playing a 50B, plenty. Every once in a while I need it on tenor.
I don't play Bs out there, only Cs. Bs are only a false tone unless I've got a 7XH Conn in hand.
I don't play Bs out there, only Cs. Bs are only a false tone unless I've got a 7XH Conn in hand.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
It's not too bad -- for me, I use it on Liszt's piece Hosanna which has a lot of low Cs. Rather than practice random stuff extensively with a tuning I don't normally use, I just practice the pieces that need the unusual tuning with that tuning. Learn the piece, not the weird tuning, so to speak.
I think it's the same on guitar. Eric Mongrain uses very strange tunings on his guitar for different pieces, but I don't think he is picking up random music and trying to play it with his guitar in a weird setup -- he just learns to play a specific piece or improv sequence with it.
I think it's the same on guitar. Eric Mongrain uses very strange tunings on his guitar for different pieces, but I don't think he is picking up random music and trying to play it with his guitar in a weird setup -- he just learns to play a specific piece or improv sequence with it.
- spencercarran
- Posts: 689
- Joined: Oct 17, 2020
As Harrison said, you're only in E for the specific passage it's needed. When you use an E pull, you then push the slide back to "normal" at the next rest. Knowing reflexively exactly where D lands on the pulled slide is seldom going to be necessary.
- JeffBone44
- Posts: 367
- Joined: Oct 24, 2022
[quote="Burgerbob"]When I was playing a 50B, plenty. Every once in a while I need it on tenor.
I don't play Bs out there, only Cs. Bs are only a false tone unless I've got a 7XH Conn in hand.[/quote]
Is there any way to play that low B on a large bore tenor? There must be a false tone position where it sounds halfway decent.
I don't play Bs out there, only Cs. Bs are only a false tone unless I've got a 7XH Conn in hand.[/quote]
Is there any way to play that low B on a large bore tenor? There must be a false tone position where it sounds halfway decent.
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
I play false tones one position lower than the octave above, so T3; but only in my practice routine. I don't know how good it sounds on the other side of the bell.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="JeffBone44"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="224713" time="1699504236" user_id="3131">
When I was playing a 50B, plenty. Every once in a while I need it on tenor.
I don't play Bs out there, only Cs. Bs are only a false tone unless I've got a 7XH Conn in hand.[/quote]
Is there any way to play that low B on a large bore tenor? There must be a false tone position where it sounds halfway decent.
</QUOTE>
Same position as low Eb, including the valve.
When I was playing a 50B, plenty. Every once in a while I need it on tenor.
I don't play Bs out there, only Cs. Bs are only a false tone unless I've got a 7XH Conn in hand.[/quote]
Is there any way to play that low B on a large bore tenor? There must be a false tone position where it sounds halfway decent.
</QUOTE>
Same position as low Eb, including the valve.
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
[quote="harrisonreed"]I use it on Liszt's piece Hosanna[/quote]
Thank you for the accompaniment on youtube. I love it.
Thank you for the accompaniment on youtube. I love it.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="AtomicClock"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="224721" time="1699533735" user_id="3642">
I use it on Liszt's piece Hosanna[/quote]
Thank you for the accompaniment on youtube. I love it.
</QUOTE>
Working on more!
I use it on Liszt's piece Hosanna[/quote]
Thank you for the accompaniment on youtube. I love it.
</QUOTE>
Working on more!
- JeffBone44
- Posts: 367
- Joined: Oct 24, 2022
[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="JeffBone44" post_id="225360" time="1700153472" user_id="15834">
Is there any way to play that low B on a large bore tenor? There must be a false tone position where it sounds halfway decent.[/quote]
Same position as low Eb, including the valve.
</QUOTE>
I will try that!
I was playing Spongebob the Musical back in August. There was one song that had a low C, so it called for bass trombone. I didn't feel like bringing the bass for just one song, so I had my Conn 78H special. I used the E pull so that I could play that C in 6th position with the trigger, therefore it wasn't all the way at the end of the slide. It came out nice and strong every time. Other than that, I don't think I've used the E pull in years.
Is there any way to play that low B on a large bore tenor? There must be a false tone position where it sounds halfway decent.[/quote]
Same position as low Eb, including the valve.
</QUOTE>
I will try that!
I was playing Spongebob the Musical back in August. There was one song that had a low C, so it called for bass trombone. I didn't feel like bringing the bass for just one song, so I had my Conn 78H special. I used the E pull so that I could play that C in 6th position with the trigger, therefore it wasn't all the way at the end of the slide. It came out nice and strong every time. Other than that, I don't think I've used the E pull in years.
- Crazy4Tbone86
- Posts: 1654
- Joined: Jan 14, 2020
I had a cyst removed from my left hand about a year ago. Thus, I had to use a single trigger bass for about 10 weeks in order to reduce the weight/stress on that hand. I ended up using an E-pull for most of that time because I was very busy playing in my brass quintet and had frequent low B-naturals (originally tuba parts). I have a special-made trigger assembly that is about 1.5 inches longer than the standard trigger tuning slide, so I was able to hit those B-naturals with great security.
While I was able to get the job done, I tried to investigate the possibilities of becoming “fluent” with such a set-up. I found that scales and arpeggios were, by far, not as convenient and efficient with the E-pull. In other words, I was experiencing that playing “standard patterns” involved moving the slide farther in the majority of patterns. It became very apparent that having valves in F, G—flat and G were much better options for the flow of slide patterns.
Think about the flow of such simple scales with an E-pull:
G major = 4,2,V1,6,4,2,5,4 or
4,V3.5,7,6,4,2,5,4 Both of these have large slide moves.
Another one:
F major = 6,4,V3.5,V2.2,6,4,2,1 Again, the V2.2 to 6 is shorter than a 1 to 6, but not by much!
While I was able to get the job done, I tried to investigate the possibilities of becoming “fluent” with such a set-up. I found that scales and arpeggios were, by far, not as convenient and efficient with the E-pull. In other words, I was experiencing that playing “standard patterns” involved moving the slide farther in the majority of patterns. It became very apparent that having valves in F, G—flat and G were much better options for the flow of slide patterns.
Think about the flow of such simple scales with an E-pull:
G major = 4,2,V1,6,4,2,5,4 or
4,V3.5,7,6,4,2,5,4 Both of these have large slide moves.
Another one:
F major = 6,4,V3.5,V2.2,6,4,2,1 Again, the V2.2 to 6 is shorter than a 1 to 6, but not by much!
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
The B natural stinks with a single trigger. From a math standpoint, you need to add ~99” for a B from a Bb trombone. Your normal E position on the slide adds ~46”, and an F attachment another ~37”; that leaves about 15” required pull on the attachment slide to put a B there. Most attachments don’t have that amount of pull.
I contend that most the attachment lengths (and ‘E’ pulls) are set so that you have a good low C in about 6th. That seems to be the design intent, or they just screwed it up.
Cheers,
Andy
I contend that most the attachment lengths (and ‘E’ pulls) are set so that you have a good low C in about 6th. That seems to be the design intent, or they just screwed it up.
Cheers,
Andy
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
Looks like Joe pulled out to give this interview.
<YOUTUBE id="DseiVMNsuxM">https://youtu.be/DseiVMNsuxM?si=POBhUad_DC9KLo3e</YOUTUBE>
<YOUTUBE id="DseiVMNsuxM">https://youtu.be/DseiVMNsuxM?si=POBhUad_DC9KLo3e</YOUTUBE>
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
I just keep the F tuning slide pulled all the way out to the point where I can just barely play a C in 1st position slammed all the way in. (Note that I tune Bb about 3/4 of an inch out in a "flat 1st position" anyway, which gives me a little extra leeway, as I never pull the slide all the way to the top.) At that point my low C is in a true 7th position, and I can lip down to the B in a flat 7th position. I just leave it that way. That gives me the best compromise without having to do E pulls at a moment's notice.
- Crazy4Tbone86
- Posts: 1654
- Joined: Jan 14, 2020
[quote="AtomicClock"]Looks like Joe pulled out to give this interview.
<YOUTUBE id="DseiVMNsuxM">https://youtu.be/DseiVMNsuxM?si=POBhUad_DC9KLo3e</YOUTUBE>[/quote]
Not necessarily. I have a couple of students who pull their F-attachments out that far and they are still rather sharp on low F in trigger 1st position. Some horns are just built super short in the F-attachment tubing.
<YOUTUBE id="DseiVMNsuxM">https://youtu.be/DseiVMNsuxM?si=POBhUad_DC9KLo3e</YOUTUBE>[/quote]
Not necessarily. I have a couple of students who pull their F-attachments out that far and they are still rather sharp on low F in trigger 1st position. Some horns are just built super short in the F-attachment tubing.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I had an Eb slide for a single valve bass at one time. You can't be afraid of 6th and 7th positions to play with a setup like that. It completely avoided the need for a 2nd valve, but led to some awkward slide motion.
- WilliamLang
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Nov 22, 2019
I've found that in contemporary music land most composers never read the style guide my group and I provide that says specifically "I PLAY TENOR DON'T WRITE B1, LITERALLY WRITE ANY OTHER NOTE" so I've gotten used to pulling the F tuning slide out as much as possible when the music had enough rests or space to let me push back in for low B.
It never works perfectly, but usually there's like three other things going on... you know, the classic low B for tenor, in a Harmon with no stem, and flutter tongued... So it all evens out somehow.
If it needs to sound good though, I'm just pulling and hoping for the best.
It never works perfectly, but usually there's like three other things going on... you know, the classic low B for tenor, in a Harmon with no stem, and flutter tongued... So it all evens out somehow.
If it needs to sound good though, I'm just pulling and hoping for the best.
- PVH
- Posts: 20
- Joined: Jun 15, 2018
William - That style guide your group has is so well done. I have also found that composers sometimes really want to write that note no matter what you suggest.
I sometimes wonder if cello players have this problem but I have seen cellists de-tuning their instruments to accommodate B and lower so perhaps they need to worry about it too.
I play a New York Bach 36b that has a slide just long enough to get the B in tune. The F in first with the valve is completely impossible and the C in first only works with the slide almost all the way in but there seems to be enough slide length to just barely get the B centered when pulled all the way. I wonder why this isn’t how more horns are built. I encounter low Bs too often to not need a good way to play them.
I practice scales and other tonal music in that range with the slide pulled all the way to really try to learn where all the notes work in different valve tunings. It is difficult because things get very flexible down there. At least there aren’t that many notes to worry about.
I sometimes wonder if cello players have this problem but I have seen cellists de-tuning their instruments to accommodate B and lower so perhaps they need to worry about it too.
I play a New York Bach 36b that has a slide just long enough to get the B in tune. The F in first with the valve is completely impossible and the C in first only works with the slide almost all the way in but there seems to be enough slide length to just barely get the B centered when pulled all the way. I wonder why this isn’t how more horns are built. I encounter low Bs too often to not need a good way to play them.
I practice scales and other tonal music in that range with the slide pulled all the way to really try to learn where all the notes work in different valve tunings. It is difficult because things get very flexible down there. At least there aren’t that many notes to worry about.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="WilliamLang"]I've found that in contemporary music land most composers never read the style guide my group and I provide that says specifically "I PLAY TENOR DON'T WRITE B1, LITERALLY WRITE ANY OTHER NOTE" so I've gotten used to pulling the F tuning slide out as much as possible when the music had enough rests or space to let me push back in for low B.
It never works perfectly, but usually there's like three other things going on... you know, the classic low B for tenor, in a Harmon with no stem, and flutter tongued... So it all evens out somehow.
If it needs to sound good though, I'm just pulling and hoping for the best.[/quote]
And that is why I saw a 36B with two valves, like a bass, for sale in Shin-Okubo. And ... Reading deeper into it ... That is also why I saw such a horn up for sale, used.
It never works perfectly, but usually there's like three other things going on... you know, the classic low B for tenor, in a Harmon with no stem, and flutter tongued... So it all evens out somehow.
If it needs to sound good though, I'm just pulling and hoping for the best.[/quote]
And that is why I saw a 36B with two valves, like a bass, for sale in Shin-Okubo. And ... Reading deeper into it ... That is also why I saw such a horn up for sale, used.
- Kdanielsen
- Posts: 609
- Joined: Jul 28, 2019
[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="JeffBone44" post_id="225360" time="1700153472" user_id="15834">
Is there any way to play that low B on a large bore tenor? There must be a false tone position where it sounds halfway decent.[/quote]
Same position as low Eb, including the valve.
</QUOTE>
And same as pedal Bb but with the spit valve open!!
Is there any way to play that low B on a large bore tenor? There must be a false tone position where it sounds halfway decent.[/quote]
Same position as low Eb, including the valve.
</QUOTE>
And same as pedal Bb but with the spit valve open!!
- Sesquitone
- Posts: 291
- Joined: Apr 25, 2022
As has been discussed elsewhere, players who are satisfied with a B1 using the "E-pull" either have an unusually long hand-slide or are using some combination of (i) an attachment pulled lower than an equitempered E-natural, or (ii) are compensating (presumably subconsciously) by embouchure adjustment, or (iii) are playing the B1 a little sharp (which is hard to identify in that low register), or all of the above.
With an equitempered E-natural attachment, the B1 is 88 mm beyond slide-alone (SA) 7th position. [For comparison, with an F attachment, C2 is 49 mm beyond SA 7th position, and this is usually within reach on most hand-slides.]
The following ETSP Chart shows a precise graphical portrayal of hand-slide positions for the Bb/E combination, where the B1 can be seen to be well beyond SA 7. [Black dots show equitempered slide-alone tones along their respective harmonics; open circles show the equitempered E-attachment tones along their (first, second and third) harmonics.] Note that C1 and C2 are very close to SA 6th position. One test of a correctly tuned E-pull is to play the C3 in SA 6th position with and without actuating the attachment. They should match pretty closely. Then, with the attachment engaged, gliss out to the third-harmonic B2--is this in tune (while still on the slide)? If so, drop down to the second-harmonic B1 at the same position.
The so-called "Flat E-pull" (so that B1 aligns with SA 7) must be tuned closer to Eb. So, if you want a continuously chromatic <I>single</I>-valve combination, why not go all the way to an Eb attachment? Hand-slide technique in the mid-to-low register is no more awkward than with an attachment-less Bb tenor--all the low E's and B's are in (or close to) SA 7th position. The five available attachment positions along the second harmonic of the Eb tuning (with a "tenor"-length hand-slide) just neatly provide the five missing notes in the "tenor gap" (i.e. between the Bb first and second harmonics), linking down to pedals. The second ETSP Chart shows a Bb/Eb combination, with the attachment tuned 14 ¢ sharp so as to provide some handy attachment fifth-harmonic alternates in the upper half of the bass clef.
Note, in particular, how the attachment second harmonic lies "mid-way" (in the vertical direction) between the Bb first and second harmonics. [The individual harmonics (of slide-alone and attachment) are shown by the heavy curves sloping down to the right.] This is an example of "optimal design" of attachment tuning--and should be applied to dual-valve attachment design (either dependent or independent), as well, rather than assuming (i.e. taking for granted) that the "first" (thumb-trigger-actuated) attachment must be an F attachment, and then trying out various tunings for the second (or double) valve.
Spoiler-alerts:
The optimal dependent-valve tuning is:
Bb/F#(thumb)/D(double).
The optimal independent-valve tuning is:
Bb/G(thumb)-E(finger)-D(double)
with a close second being:
Bb/G(thumb)-Eb(finger)-Db(double)
[The latter is a transposition (up a P4) of the Thein ("German"-tuning) contrabass, F/D-Bb-Ab].
For a "real" bass trombone, consider:
G/E(thumb)-C(finger)-Bb(double)
But this is getting away from "E pull", and would be better discussed under a different heading such as "Optimal design of attachment tuning".
.
With an equitempered E-natural attachment, the B1 is 88 mm beyond slide-alone (SA) 7th position. [For comparison, with an F attachment, C2 is 49 mm beyond SA 7th position, and this is usually within reach on most hand-slides.]
The following ETSP Chart shows a precise graphical portrayal of hand-slide positions for the Bb/E combination, where the B1 can be seen to be well beyond SA 7. [Black dots show equitempered slide-alone tones along their respective harmonics; open circles show the equitempered E-attachment tones along their (first, second and third) harmonics.] Note that C1 and C2 are very close to SA 6th position. One test of a correctly tuned E-pull is to play the C3 in SA 6th position with and without actuating the attachment. They should match pretty closely. Then, with the attachment engaged, gliss out to the third-harmonic B2--is this in tune (while still on the slide)? If so, drop down to the second-harmonic B1 at the same position.
The so-called "Flat E-pull" (so that B1 aligns with SA 7) must be tuned closer to Eb. So, if you want a continuously chromatic <I>single</I>-valve combination, why not go all the way to an Eb attachment? Hand-slide technique in the mid-to-low register is no more awkward than with an attachment-less Bb tenor--all the low E's and B's are in (or close to) SA 7th position. The five available attachment positions along the second harmonic of the Eb tuning (with a "tenor"-length hand-slide) just neatly provide the five missing notes in the "tenor gap" (i.e. between the Bb first and second harmonics), linking down to pedals. The second ETSP Chart shows a Bb/Eb combination, with the attachment tuned 14 ¢ sharp so as to provide some handy attachment fifth-harmonic alternates in the upper half of the bass clef.
Note, in particular, how the attachment second harmonic lies "mid-way" (in the vertical direction) between the Bb first and second harmonics. [The individual harmonics (of slide-alone and attachment) are shown by the heavy curves sloping down to the right.] This is an example of "optimal design" of attachment tuning--and should be applied to dual-valve attachment design (either dependent or independent), as well, rather than assuming (i.e. taking for granted) that the "first" (thumb-trigger-actuated) attachment must be an F attachment, and then trying out various tunings for the second (or double) valve.
Spoiler-alerts:
The optimal dependent-valve tuning is:
Bb/F#(thumb)/D(double).
The optimal independent-valve tuning is:
Bb/G(thumb)-E(finger)-D(double)
with a close second being:
Bb/G(thumb)-Eb(finger)-Db(double)
[The latter is a transposition (up a P4) of the Thein ("German"-tuning) contrabass, F/D-Bb-Ab].
For a "real" bass trombone, consider:
G/E(thumb)-C(finger)-Bb(double)
But this is getting away from "E pull", and would be better discussed under a different heading such as "Optimal design of attachment tuning".
.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
No matter how many times I see that chart, I can't get enough of it.
- sacfxdx
- Posts: 406
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]No matter how many times I see that chart, I can't get enough of it.[/quote]
It would make a great tattoo. :)
It would make a great tattoo. :)
- Sesquitone
- Posts: 291
- Joined: Apr 25, 2022
Tattoo? No!
T-shirt? Good idea. You could have a Faisst/Yeo-type diagram on the front. Corresponding ETSP Chart on back. E pull, of course, to keep it on topic. Or perhaps flat-E pull; or exact Eb; or 14¢-sharp Eb; or . . . .
T-shirt? Good idea. You could have a Faisst/Yeo-type diagram on the front. Corresponding ETSP Chart on back. E pull, of course, to keep it on topic. Or perhaps flat-E pull; or exact Eb; or 14¢-sharp Eb; or . . . .
- Sesquitone
- Posts: 291
- Joined: Apr 25, 2022
[quote="Crazy4Tbone86"]
G major = 4,2,V1,6,4,2,5,4 or
4,V3.5,7,6,4,2,5,4 Both of these have large slide moves.
Another one:
F major = 6,4,V3.5,V2.2,6,4,2,1 Again, the V2.2 to 6 is shorter than a 1 to 6, but not by much![/quote]
.
For scalar passages (any sequence of major and minor seconds), as a general rule it makes for smooth slide motion to try to choose positions so as to play minor seconds along a single harmonic (i.e. "with the grain"), and, to the extent possible, play major seconds between adjacent harmonics (i.e. "against the grain")--using outer-position alternates when available. The Bb/E ETSP Charts below show a G-major scale and an F-major scale each played over a wide range, with alternate-position options shown in the upper register. Note that the above "rule" pretty much determines a unique "trajectory" in the Chart in the lower register. Green lines indicate slide motion along a given harmonic; red lines show motion between adjacent harmonics, the latter including attachment harmonics interleaved between slide-alone harmonics. [In the very high register, playing minor seconds between adjacent harmonics can result in dazzling "against-the-grain" runs. (Not shown here; but easily visualised.)]
.
G major = 4,2,V1,6,4,2,5,4 or
4,V3.5,7,6,4,2,5,4 Both of these have large slide moves.
Another one:
F major = 6,4,V3.5,V2.2,6,4,2,1 Again, the V2.2 to 6 is shorter than a 1 to 6, but not by much![/quote]
.
For scalar passages (any sequence of major and minor seconds), as a general rule it makes for smooth slide motion to try to choose positions so as to play minor seconds along a single harmonic (i.e. "with the grain"), and, to the extent possible, play major seconds between adjacent harmonics (i.e. "against the grain")--using outer-position alternates when available. The Bb/E ETSP Charts below show a G-major scale and an F-major scale each played over a wide range, with alternate-position options shown in the upper register. Note that the above "rule" pretty much determines a unique "trajectory" in the Chart in the lower register. Green lines indicate slide motion along a given harmonic; red lines show motion between adjacent harmonics, the latter including attachment harmonics interleaved between slide-alone harmonics. [In the very high register, playing minor seconds between adjacent harmonics can result in dazzling "against-the-grain" runs. (Not shown here; but easily visualised.)]
.
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="Sesquitone"]
The so-called "Flat E-pull" (so that B1 aligns with SA 7) must be tuned closer to Eb. So, if you want a continuously chromatic <I>single</I>-valve combination, why not go all the way to an Eb attachment? Hand-slide technique in the mid-to-low register is no more awkward than with an attachment-less Bb tenor--all the low E's and B's are in (or close to) SA 7th position. The five available attachment positions along the second harmonic of the Eb tuning (with a "tenor"-length hand-slide) just neatly provide the five missing notes in the "tenor gap" (i.e. between the Bb first and second harmonics), linking down to pedals. The second ETSP Chart shows a Bb/Eb combination, with the attachment tuned 14 ¢ sharp so as to provide some handy attachment fifth-harmonic alternates in the upper half of the bass clef.
[/quote]
So, single valve basses should be in Eb? And a tenor player who needs low B frequently should just have a second crook made, and swap for the F when the music calls for it? That seems to make sense, and has the advantage of matching your alto playing positions somewhat.
With an open wrap the crook might be too long. What does an extra crook cost?
The so-called "Flat E-pull" (so that B1 aligns with SA 7) must be tuned closer to Eb. So, if you want a continuously chromatic <I>single</I>-valve combination, why not go all the way to an Eb attachment? Hand-slide technique in the mid-to-low register is no more awkward than with an attachment-less Bb tenor--all the low E's and B's are in (or close to) SA 7th position. The five available attachment positions along the second harmonic of the Eb tuning (with a "tenor"-length hand-slide) just neatly provide the five missing notes in the "tenor gap" (i.e. between the Bb first and second harmonics), linking down to pedals. The second ETSP Chart shows a Bb/Eb combination, with the attachment tuned 14 ¢ sharp so as to provide some handy attachment fifth-harmonic alternates in the upper half of the bass clef.
[/quote]
So, single valve basses should be in Eb? And a tenor player who needs low B frequently should just have a second crook made, and swap for the F when the music calls for it? That seems to make sense, and has the advantage of matching your alto playing positions somewhat.
With an open wrap the crook might be too long. What does an extra crook cost?
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Connecting E natural to Eb would be a bear, and it comes up frequently enough that I would not want to be forced to play it in 7th all the time. Losing B in 2nd and C in 1st are also non-starters for me. I don't think having an Eb valve would be practical at all. Why give up all that good stuff so you can play a low B on an instrument that almost never has to play it?
What crazy group are you in that keeps giving you low B's? (Avant garde folks need not reply to that rhetorical question)
What crazy group are you in that keeps giving you low B's? (Avant garde folks need not reply to that rhetorical question)
- bitbckt
- Posts: 298
- Joined: Aug 19, 2020
I have an Eb tuning slide for my workhorse Getzen, which I have used in anger all of one time. It worked out fine. I might do it again, or I might just bring a horn with two valves.
I have it because I'm a "Be Prepared" Boy Scout type personality, but there is very little justification for such a thing under any kind of rational thought process.
I have it because I'm a "Be Prepared" Boy Scout type personality, but there is very little justification for such a thing under any kind of rational thought process.
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="timothy42b"]<QUOTE author="Sesquitone" post_id="226806" time="1701717196" user_id="15151">
The so-called "Flat E-pull" (so that B1 aligns with SA 7) must be tuned closer to Eb. So, if you want a continuously chromatic <I>single</I>-valve combination, why not go all the way to an Eb attachment? Hand-slide technique in the mid-to-low register is no more awkward than with an attachment-less Bb tenor--all the low E's and B's are in (or close to) SA 7th position. The five available attachment positions along the second harmonic of the Eb tuning (with a "tenor"-length hand-slide) just neatly provide the five missing notes in the "tenor gap" (i.e. between the Bb first and second harmonics), linking down to pedals. The second ETSP Chart shows a Bb/Eb combination, with the attachment tuned 14 ¢ sharp so as to provide some handy attachment fifth-harmonic alternates in the upper half of the bass clef.
[/quote]
So, single valve basses should be in Eb? And a tenor player who needs low B frequently should just have a second crook made, and swap for the F when the music calls for it? That seems to make sense, and has the advantage of matching your alto playing positions somewhat.
With an open wrap the crook might be too long. What does an extra crook cost?
</QUOTE>
There were a number of single valve basses with “quint” valves instead of quart valves. Look up some of the old Conn descriptions. There is a reason they aren’t terribly common. They aren’t as useful.
F>>>>>>Eb, even if it is missing some notes.
Still want to build a flexible horn with some crooks so I can put either independent valve in G, Gb, F, or bE and play with the combinations in the real world rather than the theoretical. But that will be after I finish the dumb horn I’ve already started.
Cheers,
Andy
The so-called "Flat E-pull" (so that B1 aligns with SA 7) must be tuned closer to Eb. So, if you want a continuously chromatic <I>single</I>-valve combination, why not go all the way to an Eb attachment? Hand-slide technique in the mid-to-low register is no more awkward than with an attachment-less Bb tenor--all the low E's and B's are in (or close to) SA 7th position. The five available attachment positions along the second harmonic of the Eb tuning (with a "tenor"-length hand-slide) just neatly provide the five missing notes in the "tenor gap" (i.e. between the Bb first and second harmonics), linking down to pedals. The second ETSP Chart shows a Bb/Eb combination, with the attachment tuned 14 ¢ sharp so as to provide some handy attachment fifth-harmonic alternates in the upper half of the bass clef.
[/quote]
So, single valve basses should be in Eb? And a tenor player who needs low B frequently should just have a second crook made, and swap for the F when the music calls for it? That seems to make sense, and has the advantage of matching your alto playing positions somewhat.
With an open wrap the crook might be too long. What does an extra crook cost?
</QUOTE>
There were a number of single valve basses with “quint” valves instead of quart valves. Look up some of the old Conn descriptions. There is a reason they aren’t terribly common. They aren’t as useful.
F>>>>>>Eb, even if it is missing some notes.
Still want to build a flexible horn with some crooks so I can put either independent valve in G, Gb, F, or bE and play with the combinations in the real world rather than the theoretical. But that will be after I finish the dumb horn I’ve already started.
Cheers,
Andy
- OneTon
- Posts: 757
- Joined: Nov 02, 2021
[quote="timothy42b"]
With an open wrap the crook might be too long. What does an extra crook cost?[/quote]
My Bach 42AG, Hagmann with a gold brass bell, doesn’t pull far enough to get a good B1. Baltimore Brass quoted a couple of hundred dollars to make a longer tuning slide, over twenty years ago. Before I got around to getting that done, I started playing bass in a big band and purchased a King Duo-Gravis, obviating the need for a tenor e slide.
I never tune the f attachment slide to C2 in first position, based on hearsay that Emory Remington did not recommend it. But what did he know?
I am as likely to play Bb1 on the f side and C2 on the Bb side, and practice multiple scales around the circle of fifths as I warm up. I am also able to play a lot of first and second chair parts on a straight 42G. I break out the 42AG or King D-G if and as required. The 42AG is a good horn. I can make a 42B work and prefer the option to pull to a real e slide to a good B1, and less overhang on the f side slide.
If I knew then what I know now, I would probably be playing a 36 or 36B, perhaps with gold brass bells. Letting go of the reins on Bach 42 sized trombones only happens on stuff like Berlioz or Mahler. The conductor often seems to ask for less trombone. In the interest of full disclosure, pulling on the reins makes race horses go faster.
With an open wrap the crook might be too long. What does an extra crook cost?[/quote]
My Bach 42AG, Hagmann with a gold brass bell, doesn’t pull far enough to get a good B1. Baltimore Brass quoted a couple of hundred dollars to make a longer tuning slide, over twenty years ago. Before I got around to getting that done, I started playing bass in a big band and purchased a King Duo-Gravis, obviating the need for a tenor e slide.
I never tune the f attachment slide to C2 in first position, based on hearsay that Emory Remington did not recommend it. But what did he know?
I am as likely to play Bb1 on the f side and C2 on the Bb side, and practice multiple scales around the circle of fifths as I warm up. I am also able to play a lot of first and second chair parts on a straight 42G. I break out the 42AG or King D-G if and as required. The 42AG is a good horn. I can make a 42B work and prefer the option to pull to a real e slide to a good B1, and less overhang on the f side slide.
If I knew then what I know now, I would probably be playing a 36 or 36B, perhaps with gold brass bells. Letting go of the reins on Bach 42 sized trombones only happens on stuff like Berlioz or Mahler. The conductor often seems to ask for less trombone. In the interest of full disclosure, pulling on the reins makes race horses go faster.
- Sesquitone
- Posts: 291
- Joined: Apr 25, 2022
[quote="timothy42b"]
So, single valve basses should be in Eb? And a tenor player who needs low B frequently should just have a second crook made, and swap for the F when the music calls for it? That seems to make sense, and has the advantage of matching your alto playing positions somewhat.
With an open wrap the crook might be too long. What does an extra crook cost?[/quote]
.
An open-wrap F-attachment crook can be replaced by an Eb crook using what's sometimes called a "German loop" without extending further back than the original. See the picture below, from René Hagmann's custom shop. By making the loop more of an oval, the crook could be even more compact. [The Bb/Eb attachment positions are, of course, (exactly) twice as long as Eb alto positions.]
By the way, I am not advocating the widespread use of the single-valve P5 attachment (Bb/Eb or the more compact C/F) for linking continuously to pedals. Although hand-slide manipulation in the low-tenor/bass register is no more "awkward" than with an attachmentless tenor in its lowest range, when the score lies mostly in this register, things do indeed become awkward! However, a single P5 valve has the advantage of lighter weight, so this may be a consideration.
Many symphony-orchestra tenor-trombone professionals playing the ubiquitous Bb/F combination seem to favour 6th and 7th positions (for C3 and B2, and F2 and E2) in preference to corresponding attachment notes in T1 and T2, respectively ("T" for "thumb")--especially for exposed longer tones with strong attacks. Apparently, there is still a belief that attachment alternates have "problems" with respect to intonation and tone quality (flat and "stuffy" F2, sharp and uncentered C3), and unreliable attack response. [When I was first learning how to handle an attachment (on a Conn 88H), my teacher at the time (Henry Romersa, 1960) insisted that I spend countless practice hours trying to make attachment alternates sound indistinguishable from their slide-alone counterparts, but then to avoid them like the plague unless absolutely "necessary" (e.g. in rapid short-note phrases). That seems to (still) be common practice among some players. Although things have improved since then. Ideally, attachment alternates should be equivalent in all respects to their slide-alone counterparts of the same sound-path length. Attachment alternates with longer sound-paths (Bb2, A2, . . .) will "feel" different to the player, although a listener may not notice any difference.]
A single valve on a trombone has, potentially, two functions: (i) extending the lower non-pedal range down towards pedals, and (ii) offering some handy attachment alternates in the otherwise awkward low-tenor register (without regard to extending below the standard tenor compass). The ubiquitous Bb/F (P4 attachment) helps with both of these criteria, but not optimally. First, of course, with regard to (i), is the missing B1. Secondly, with regard to (ii), although the P4 tuning is "very, very, very much" better than P5, there are even better relative tunings for this purpose. Players of bass trombones tuned Bb/F(thumb)-Gb(finger)-D(double), often point out that the (major-third) Gb attachment provides much "better" attachment alternates than the P4 attachment. Single-valve tenors tuned Bb/Gb offer very facile hand-slide technique in the low-tenor register. Among professional players, Allen Kofsky, long-time second-chair with the Cleveland Orchestra, routinely played a "chopped-down" Benge 190 tuned Bb/Gb (with a dual-bore slide matched to the attachment). But, as many players here already know, the single-valve minor-third tuning (e.g. Bb/G) provides even better slide facility in the "awkward" register. Compared with Bb/F, there is "no contest"--not even close!
So, let's stand back and consider optimal design for a tenor trombone satisfying both of the above design criteria. We start with a single (thumb-actuated) valve with Bb/G tuning (to give the "very best" attachment alternates in the low-tenor register) and then add a second (middle-finger-actuated) valve--either within the G-loop or in-line along the gooseneck--to provide continuous extension to pedals. I will spare you the messy details--worked out on ETSP charts just over sixty years ago with then available tools [graph-paper, slide-rule, log-tables (for finding all those powers of the 12-root of 2), tracing paper, coloured pencils and erasers!]--but the optimal combination turns out to be an independent in-line geometry tuned:
Bb/G(thumb)-E(finger)-D(double)
The E attachment is tuned 20 ¢ sharp in order to give a perfectly in-tune D double.
Ten years later, in 1971, I had my Conn 88H customised to this tuning at Bob Giardinelli's famous shop in New York. Giardinelli's lead technician, Jack Onqué, did the customising and helped with the detailed design of the independent finger linkage. Since then, I have had bass trombones built with this same tuning. Also another in-line valve tenor: a Bach 42 bell with a dual-bore slide matched to the 14.3 mm attachment tubing (see my Avatar picture). Note the "very open" wrap--the E attachment is upstream of the G attachment. I attach the Bb/G-E-D ETSP Chart. Slide-alone: black dots; G attachment: open circles; E attachment: "stars"; D attachment: "stars"-within-circles. Note the optimally "even" distribution of both sets of attachment harmonics in between the slide-alone and each other's harmonics. The design strategy is to find attachment tunings so that their harmonics interleave vertically on the ETSP Chart to produce evenly distributed intervals of thirds and seconds between adjacent harmonics--just as in the very facile slide-alone upper register. From the ETSP Chart, you can see at a glance that the Bb/G-E-D combination has achieved this.
Moral of the above story: don't be locked in to "tradition" (taking for granted that the thumb-actuated valve "must" be tuned to P4).
.
So, single valve basses should be in Eb? And a tenor player who needs low B frequently should just have a second crook made, and swap for the F when the music calls for it? That seems to make sense, and has the advantage of matching your alto playing positions somewhat.
With an open wrap the crook might be too long. What does an extra crook cost?[/quote]
.
An open-wrap F-attachment crook can be replaced by an Eb crook using what's sometimes called a "German loop" without extending further back than the original. See the picture below, from René Hagmann's custom shop. By making the loop more of an oval, the crook could be even more compact. [The Bb/Eb attachment positions are, of course, (exactly) twice as long as Eb alto positions.]
By the way, I am not advocating the widespread use of the single-valve P5 attachment (Bb/Eb or the more compact C/F) for linking continuously to pedals. Although hand-slide manipulation in the low-tenor/bass register is no more "awkward" than with an attachmentless tenor in its lowest range, when the score lies mostly in this register, things do indeed become awkward! However, a single P5 valve has the advantage of lighter weight, so this may be a consideration.
Many symphony-orchestra tenor-trombone professionals playing the ubiquitous Bb/F combination seem to favour 6th and 7th positions (for C3 and B2, and F2 and E2) in preference to corresponding attachment notes in T1 and T2, respectively ("T" for "thumb")--especially for exposed longer tones with strong attacks. Apparently, there is still a belief that attachment alternates have "problems" with respect to intonation and tone quality (flat and "stuffy" F2, sharp and uncentered C3), and unreliable attack response. [When I was first learning how to handle an attachment (on a Conn 88H), my teacher at the time (Henry Romersa, 1960) insisted that I spend countless practice hours trying to make attachment alternates sound indistinguishable from their slide-alone counterparts, but then to avoid them like the plague unless absolutely "necessary" (e.g. in rapid short-note phrases). That seems to (still) be common practice among some players. Although things have improved since then. Ideally, attachment alternates should be equivalent in all respects to their slide-alone counterparts of the same sound-path length. Attachment alternates with longer sound-paths (Bb2, A2, . . .) will "feel" different to the player, although a listener may not notice any difference.]
A single valve on a trombone has, potentially, two functions: (i) extending the lower non-pedal range down towards pedals, and (ii) offering some handy attachment alternates in the otherwise awkward low-tenor register (without regard to extending below the standard tenor compass). The ubiquitous Bb/F (P4 attachment) helps with both of these criteria, but not optimally. First, of course, with regard to (i), is the missing B1. Secondly, with regard to (ii), although the P4 tuning is "very, very, very much" better than P5, there are even better relative tunings for this purpose. Players of bass trombones tuned Bb/F(thumb)-Gb(finger)-D(double), often point out that the (major-third) Gb attachment provides much "better" attachment alternates than the P4 attachment. Single-valve tenors tuned Bb/Gb offer very facile hand-slide technique in the low-tenor register. Among professional players, Allen Kofsky, long-time second-chair with the Cleveland Orchestra, routinely played a "chopped-down" Benge 190 tuned Bb/Gb (with a dual-bore slide matched to the attachment). But, as many players here already know, the single-valve minor-third tuning (e.g. Bb/G) provides even better slide facility in the "awkward" register. Compared with Bb/F, there is "no contest"--not even close!
So, let's stand back and consider optimal design for a tenor trombone satisfying both of the above design criteria. We start with a single (thumb-actuated) valve with Bb/G tuning (to give the "very best" attachment alternates in the low-tenor register) and then add a second (middle-finger-actuated) valve--either within the G-loop or in-line along the gooseneck--to provide continuous extension to pedals. I will spare you the messy details--worked out on ETSP charts just over sixty years ago with then available tools [graph-paper, slide-rule, log-tables (for finding all those powers of the 12-root of 2), tracing paper, coloured pencils and erasers!]--but the optimal combination turns out to be an independent in-line geometry tuned:
Bb/G(thumb)-E(finger)-D(double)
The E attachment is tuned 20 ¢ sharp in order to give a perfectly in-tune D double.
Ten years later, in 1971, I had my Conn 88H customised to this tuning at Bob Giardinelli's famous shop in New York. Giardinelli's lead technician, Jack Onqué, did the customising and helped with the detailed design of the independent finger linkage. Since then, I have had bass trombones built with this same tuning. Also another in-line valve tenor: a Bach 42 bell with a dual-bore slide matched to the 14.3 mm attachment tubing (see my Avatar picture). Note the "very open" wrap--the E attachment is upstream of the G attachment. I attach the Bb/G-E-D ETSP Chart. Slide-alone: black dots; G attachment: open circles; E attachment: "stars"; D attachment: "stars"-within-circles. Note the optimally "even" distribution of both sets of attachment harmonics in between the slide-alone and each other's harmonics. The design strategy is to find attachment tunings so that their harmonics interleave vertically on the ETSP Chart to produce evenly distributed intervals of thirds and seconds between adjacent harmonics--just as in the very facile slide-alone upper register. From the ETSP Chart, you can see at a glance that the Bb/G-E-D combination has achieved this.
Moral of the above story: don't be locked in to "tradition" (taking for granted that the thumb-actuated valve "must" be tuned to P4).
.
- bitbckt
- Posts: 298
- Joined: Aug 19, 2020
That is the same wrap style that the Edwards shop used on the tuning slide I own. It's odd, but not overly cumbersome in practice.
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
[quote="elmsandr"]I contend that most the attachment lengths (and ‘E’ pulls) are set so that you have a good low C in about 6th. That seems to be the design intent, or they just screwed it up.[/quote]
My Bach 42BO only has about 3.5 inches of available pull. This gets the C in normal 7th. 6th is a dream. They could have made the outer tubes MUCH longer. Sigh.
My Bach 42BO only has about 3.5 inches of available pull. This gets the C in normal 7th. 6th is a dream. They could have made the outer tubes MUCH longer. Sigh.
- Sesquitone
- Posts: 291
- Joined: Apr 25, 2022
[quote="elmsandr"]
I contend that most the attachment lengths (and ‘E’ pulls) are set so that you have a good low C in about 6th. That seems to be the design intent, or they just screwed it up.
[/quote]
With an in-tune E attachment, C2 is just slightly beyond slide-alone 6th position.
.
I contend that most the attachment lengths (and ‘E’ pulls) are set so that you have a good low C in about 6th. That seems to be the design intent, or they just screwed it up.
[/quote]
With an in-tune E attachment, C2 is just slightly beyond slide-alone 6th position.
.
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Sesquitone"]<QUOTE author="elmsandr" post_id="225469" time="1700251522" user_id="147">
I contend that most the attachment lengths (and ‘E’ pulls) are set so that you have a good low C in about 6th. That seems to be the design intent, or they just screwed it up.
[/quote]
With an in-tune E attachment, C2 is just slightly beyond slide-alone 6th position.
.
</QUOTE>
Thank you for the visual, my point being that there is enough attachment tuning slide on most to pull to get that C in tune in 6th if you choose, but the B is still off the end of the slide.
Many horns, like all closed wrap Bachs, could have more attachment tuning length, but they’ve chosen not to provide enough to get that B with any security. I actually like the available length on the open wrap Bachs, it is a design admission that there is no good reason for the really long tuning slide on the closed wraps, so why waste the material….
Cheers,
Andy
I contend that most the attachment lengths (and ‘E’ pulls) are set so that you have a good low C in about 6th. That seems to be the design intent, or they just screwed it up.
[/quote]
With an in-tune E attachment, C2 is just slightly beyond slide-alone 6th position.
.
</QUOTE>
Thank you for the visual, my point being that there is enough attachment tuning slide on most to pull to get that C in tune in 6th if you choose, but the B is still off the end of the slide.
Many horns, like all closed wrap Bachs, could have more attachment tuning length, but they’ve chosen not to provide enough to get that B with any security. I actually like the available length on the open wrap Bachs, it is a design admission that there is no good reason for the really long tuning slide on the closed wraps, so why waste the material….
Cheers,
Andy
- Sesquitone
- Posts: 291
- Joined: Apr 25, 2022
[quote="elmsandr"]Thank you for the visual, my point being that there is enough attachment tuning slide on most to pull to get that C in tune in 6th if you choose, but the B is still off the end of the slide.
Many horns, like all closed wrap Bachs, could have more attachment tuning length, but they’ve chosen not to provide enough to get that B with any security. I actually like the available length on the open wrap Bachs, it is a design admission that there is no good reason for the really long tuning slide on the closed wraps, so why waste the material….[/quote]
CORRECTION
When constructing the ETSP Charts for the Bb/E combination, I accidentally pressed the wrong button on my calculator, inadvertently accessing the F sound-path length (3951 mm) rather than the E-natural, which is about 6% longer (4186 mm). Consequently, all the supposed "E"-attachment positions in earlier ETSP Charts are a little shorter than they should be. I've corrected them here for the basic chart and the G major and F major scales. As Andy points out, the C2 is well on the slide (although, theoretically, 48 mm beyond slide-alone 6th). But (with an equitempered E attachment) the B1 is still way beyond slide-alone 7th position (by 88 mm). I apologise if this has caused any confusion.
.
Many horns, like all closed wrap Bachs, could have more attachment tuning length, but they’ve chosen not to provide enough to get that B with any security. I actually like the available length on the open wrap Bachs, it is a design admission that there is no good reason for the really long tuning slide on the closed wraps, so why waste the material….[/quote]
CORRECTION
When constructing the ETSP Charts for the Bb/E combination, I accidentally pressed the wrong button on my calculator, inadvertently accessing the F sound-path length (3951 mm) rather than the E-natural, which is about 6% longer (4186 mm). Consequently, all the supposed "E"-attachment positions in earlier ETSP Charts are a little shorter than they should be. I've corrected them here for the basic chart and the G major and F major scales. As Andy points out, the C2 is well on the slide (although, theoretically, 48 mm beyond slide-alone 6th). But (with an equitempered E attachment) the B1 is still way beyond slide-alone 7th position (by 88 mm). I apologise if this has caused any confusion.
.
- CalgaryTbone
- Posts: 1460
- Joined: May 10, 2018
I have one of the Edwards E flat tuning slides for the valve on my large bore tenor. I used it once for the soundtrack of one of the Lord of the Rings movies. There was a low B for the whole section (maybe two of them?) in an exposed lick. It sounded better with at least 2 players (our 2nd player at the time didn't have a similar extra tuning slide). I also used a bass mouthpiece so I could get some more "oomph" on it. There was no way the orchestra was going to pay doubling, and I wasn't going to drag a bass there for free. It was kind of fun, but I wouldn't consider using the E flat slide for anything too technical - like others have said, it eliminates valve positions for B natural and C that are near low B flat, and takes a lot of practice to get used to the new valve positions.
I'm pretty sure that in the original soundtrack, they probably have more trombones for some of the battle scenes and have lots of doubles on Bass and Contra. The scores for orchestras to play along with the films get reduced for a more or less standard sized orchestra, and some bass notes end up in tenors.
Jim Scott
I'm pretty sure that in the original soundtrack, they probably have more trombones for some of the battle scenes and have lots of doubles on Bass and Contra. The scores for orchestras to play along with the films get reduced for a more or less standard sized orchestra, and some bass notes end up in tenors.
Jim Scott
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
Maybe this is a stupid question... how do you manage that extra slide, either to and from the gig, or stored on the shelf? I imagine it doesn't have its own case. But throwing it in the bottom of a mute bag seems like a bad idea. And putting it anywhere would get slide grease all over the place, but remove it from the slide itself.
I solved this for the tiny crook that converts my Bb/F/D into a Bb/F by keeping it in a plastic bag, in the case compartment designed for it. But no case accommodates a spare Eb slide.
I solved this for the tiny crook that converts my Bb/F/D into a Bb/F by keeping it in a plastic bag, in the case compartment designed for it. But no case accommodates a spare Eb slide.
- bitbckt
- Posts: 298
- Joined: Aug 19, 2020
The Getzen case has ample room to keep the extra slide safe. I keep it in a velvet bag I bought that had a free bottle of Crown in it!
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="bitbckt"]The Getzen case has ample room to keep the extra slide safe. I keep it in a velvet bag I bought that had a free bottle of Crown in it![/quote]
Crown Royal bags, the solution to and cause of many problems.
Cheers,
Andy
Crown Royal bags, the solution to and cause of many problems.
Cheers,
Andy
- baileyman
- Posts: 1169
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
Didn't George Roberts do something like a 1.5 partial tone starting from trigger E in flat 2? If so, that note must be on lots of classic recordings without a compromised sound.
I'm just asking, since I only play a straight horn.
I'm just asking, since I only play a straight horn.
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
[quote="baileyman"]Didn't George Roberts do something like a 1.5 partial tone starting from trigger E in flat 2? If so, that note must be on lots of classic recordings without a compromised sound.
I'm just asking, since I only play a straight horn.[/quote]
It's more-or-less like the straight horn 2nd partial false tones - a major third below the real note - so trigger E/C, trigger Eb/B... with practice they're certainly usable, at least as passing notes, or slow/soft, but there are definite limits to volume and articulation. Tbh, the B isn't necessarily much more secure than lipping down from a real somewhat-pulled C, but it has the arm/face/stability advantages of being in the middle of the slide and thus easier in passing.
Different requirements and expectations - if Nelson Riddle wrote a B he knew what was involved. MCU wall of contras, not so much.
I'm just asking, since I only play a straight horn.[/quote]
It's more-or-less like the straight horn 2nd partial false tones - a major third below the real note - so trigger E/C, trigger Eb/B... with practice they're certainly usable, at least as passing notes, or slow/soft, but there are definite limits to volume and articulation. Tbh, the B isn't necessarily much more secure than lipping down from a real somewhat-pulled C, but it has the arm/face/stability advantages of being in the middle of the slide and thus easier in passing.
Different requirements and expectations - if Nelson Riddle wrote a B he knew what was involved. MCU wall of contras, not so much.
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
I do not play much with valve tuned to E. I use C and B as false tones. For very exposed and loud low C's I pull just enough to reach the C, and then it is near the tip of the slide. B as a false tone is easier compared to C. If it is too much exposed low work I switch to a double, at least I do this for concerts.
I only have a few single basses with long enough E-pull to enable a B. If I remember correctly my Conn 70H, 72H and 71H as well as the single valved Holtons can do this. I was suprised when I noticed the TR-183 had a B at the tip of the slide with the E-pull fully extended. Maybe I did use some lipping to be able to do that if somebody do the maths (hard to tell), but as I remember it I was surprised it did have a good B but very faaaar out, just at the tip which makes it nearly impossible in a real situation because my arms are not long enough. Most single basses are like the 50B, they do not allow for a B at all.
/Tom
I only have a few single basses with long enough E-pull to enable a B. If I remember correctly my Conn 70H, 72H and 71H as well as the single valved Holtons can do this. I was suprised when I noticed the TR-183 had a B at the tip of the slide with the E-pull fully extended. Maybe I did use some lipping to be able to do that if somebody do the maths (hard to tell), but as I remember it I was surprised it did have a good B but very faaaar out, just at the tip which makes it nearly impossible in a real situation because my arms are not long enough. Most single basses are like the 50B, they do not allow for a B at all.
/Tom
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="timothy42b"]So, single valve basses should be in Eb? And a tenor player who needs low B frequently should just have a second crook made, and swap for the F when the music calls for it? That seems to make sense, and has the advantage of matching your alto playing positions somewhat.
With an open wrap the crook might be too long. What does an extra crook cost?[/quote]
I'm not sure about the "should" part, but "can" certainly. I had a crook made for a 70h I had at one time. I'd use it if there weren't a lot of 7-1 transitions and I needed a low B or C. The complete slide cost about $350 from Mouthpiece Express people, who are local for me. I sold the Eb slide with the 70h. The original idea was just to have a completely chromatic horn. There were certainly some compromises, but it wasn't useless, if I can say it that way.
It wasn't open wrap, it wrapped back along the horn, and was rather compact. I had to make sure to either put it in a case with some extra room, or tote it in a separate bag well padded. In practice it didn't leave the house too often. I used it more than I used an actual E pull, but sometimes when I used it, it was just to get the feel of using it in a real situation.
With an open wrap the crook might be too long. What does an extra crook cost?[/quote]
I'm not sure about the "should" part, but "can" certainly. I had a crook made for a 70h I had at one time. I'd use it if there weren't a lot of 7-1 transitions and I needed a low B or C. The complete slide cost about $350 from Mouthpiece Express people, who are local for me. I sold the Eb slide with the 70h. The original idea was just to have a completely chromatic horn. There were certainly some compromises, but it wasn't useless, if I can say it that way.
It wasn't open wrap, it wrapped back along the horn, and was rather compact. I had to make sure to either put it in a case with some extra room, or tote it in a separate bag well padded. In practice it didn't leave the house too often. I used it more than I used an actual E pull, but sometimes when I used it, it was just to get the feel of using it in a real situation.
- Sesquitone
- Posts: 291
- Joined: Apr 25, 2022
When I was teaching in the Faculty of Engineering at The University of Akron in the 1980s and 90s, my colleague in the Music Department, Ed Zadrosny, among many other things, was a member of the "High Anxiety Bones", a trombone quartet, along with Steve Witser, Paul Ferguson, and (on bass) Ray Premru.
I attended many of their concerts--and noted that, in that group, Ray played a single-valve Bb/F bass trombone. He sometimes used the attachment for F2 and C3 (and other attachment third harmonics)--indicating that the attachment was set to a well-in-tune F. But he also routinely played very "authentic" sounding B1's with the attachment engaged and an over-extended slide and embouchure adjustment. [Their concerts were always in small venues, so I was able to sit up close and observe nuances of slide-positions and trigger actions (and facial muscles).]
I attended many of their concerts--and noted that, in that group, Ray played a single-valve Bb/F bass trombone. He sometimes used the attachment for F2 and C3 (and other attachment third harmonics)--indicating that the attachment was set to a well-in-tune F. But he also routinely played very "authentic" sounding B1's with the attachment engaged and an over-extended slide and embouchure adjustment. [Their concerts were always in small venues, so I was able to sit up close and observe nuances of slide-positions and trigger actions (and facial muscles).]
- Sesquitone
- Posts: 291
- Joined: Apr 25, 2022
Here's a clearer picture of a G major scale on a Bb/E combination (with a new colour code). I've "erased" all the notes not in the G major scale. This still leaves a number of options on different "tracks" throughout the full range shown. The colour code is as follows.
Yellow: semitone along a given harmonic (preferred).
Blue: semitone between adjacent harmonics (when necessary or desired).
Pink: whole-tone between adjacent harmonics (preferred).
Black: whole-tone along a given harmonic (when necessary or desired).
Not all possibilities are shown. For these small intervals, I have avoided "jumping over" intermediate harmonics. And where there are multiple possibilities, I've selected those with the shortest slide shift(s). Many portions of the scale can be played "against-the-grain" (i.e. a sequence of between-adjacent-harmonics in a single direction). As this tends to move the slide out while ascending (except in the very high register), and vice versa, you can always reverse this by moving along a single harmonic--to "lock into" a different track.
Of course, the obvious feature is the way the B1 "sticks out" well beyond slide-alone 7th position.
If you have an E attachment (shown by open circles), try playing some of these options by reading right off the ETSP Chart.
[I apologise for the distortion--apparently due to multiple runs through my copier/scanner.]
.
Yellow: semitone along a given harmonic (preferred).
Blue: semitone between adjacent harmonics (when necessary or desired).
Pink: whole-tone between adjacent harmonics (preferred).
Black: whole-tone along a given harmonic (when necessary or desired).
Not all possibilities are shown. For these small intervals, I have avoided "jumping over" intermediate harmonics. And where there are multiple possibilities, I've selected those with the shortest slide shift(s). Many portions of the scale can be played "against-the-grain" (i.e. a sequence of between-adjacent-harmonics in a single direction). As this tends to move the slide out while ascending (except in the very high register), and vice versa, you can always reverse this by moving along a single harmonic--to "lock into" a different track.
Of course, the obvious feature is the way the B1 "sticks out" well beyond slide-alone 7th position.
If you have an E attachment (shown by open circles), try playing some of these options by reading right off the ETSP Chart.
[I apologise for the distortion--apparently due to multiple runs through my copier/scanner.]
.