I'm attempting to add a virtual horn section to one of my songs & I'm trying to be as "authentic" as possible, so I'm doing research to figure out the note ranges covered by a trombone, trumpet & alto/tenor sax so that the arrangement that I come up with is within those ranges for each instrument. The samples I'm using are from a Roland FA-08 and they're actually quite good, at least to my untrained (brass-wise) ear. One thing that can't be sampled is sliding between notes like a trombone player would do, but by using portamento/pitch-bend I think I can replicate it fairly convincingly to non-trombone players. Obviously, whatever I do will be a far cry from the real thing, but I'm honestly trying to be as true as possible to the process in order to come up with a horn section that is as representative as possible.

To that end, I have a few questions that I would like to pose to the community here, in order to make it as authentic as possible.

1) What are the "typical" intervals that a trombone player would cover between notes in an arrangement with your typical guitar-based band?

2) Greater than a whole step, to a fourth or fifth in some cases?

3) Is there a physical limit on what can be acheived? Could it be as much as an octave?

4) How frequently is this slide effect used in a "pop" style arrangement? Once or twice in a short section or does it completely depend on the arrangement itself?

Disclaimer: My apologies in advance in case I'm being unintentionally insensitive with any of my questions. That is definitely not my intent.

Thanks in advance for your responses!

Realto619

First, I moved this to Composition as the folks who habituate this board will be more savvy.

You can only portamento on a trombone from 7th position to 1st position (3 whole tones). On the short end you can do a half step. Both portamentos must be within a lip partial to work, so you need to look at a position chart to see which notes are available.

Most common portamento is from C3 to F3 (7th position in this partial is B2). That is from C 2nd space to F 4th line within the bass staff.

Many trombones also have an F valve so natural portamentos could be added that use the F valve. The F valve allows only 6 positions (5 half tones) of glissando. Again, you need to look at a position chart to see which ones are legit.

Composers in the past have not been so realistic and wrote things like a portamento from D3 to G3 (both notes in 4th position on different lip partials) so trombonists have learned to "cheat" (start the portamento on D, go up to somewhere just below F, snap the slide to 5th position (roughly F#) and finish on the G. It's not a true portamento, but to the untrained audience it can sound correct.

There is a notorious portamento in Bartok's "Miraculous Mandarin" that was written for a trombone pitched in F but made with 7 positions, going from B to F to B (B1 to F2 to B1) which is not possible on any modern instrument. Bass trombone players have worked out all kinds of "tricks" to play that portamento, but I don't want to encourage you to write things that are inherently impossible to play.

Good luck.

Bruce,

Thanks for your detailed, thorough answer! The whole point is to try and make the parts I come up with as realistic as possible. Even if the typical listener will have no idea if it's authentic or not, because <I>I'll </I>know. :)

I'm only slightly surprised that it's as complicated as it is, at least to me with no actual experience playing the instrument! In order to truly understand the answer, I'll need to do a deeper dive into the mechanics required to play it. I haven't written an arrangement for it yet, so I don't know yet which notes will be involved. But the information that you provided should go a long way towards making it as authentic as I'm able.

Just curious, did Bartok's mistake ultimately lead to a wider range of possibilities or has it just been a monumental pain the @$$?

Can you verify that E2-F5 is the correct note range?

Thanks again for your assistance!

I'll try to post whatever I come up with on here so I can get your "Almost Professional" opinion... 8-)

Paul

Firstly, Bartok didn't make a mistake; the F trombone was a real instrument when he wrote for it. We later found that a Bb instrument with an F valve was easier to use for bass trombone parts.

A good player can go from E2 to F5 and beyond. Many mediocre players will top out around F4. With an F-valve the notes from C2 to Eb2 can be added to the range.

Notes in 1st position (upper end of any portamento) are Bb1 (fundamental or pedal tone), Bb2, F3, Bb3, D4, F4, Ab4 (actually, Ab4 is very flat; we generally use that partial for G4 in sharp 2), Bb4, C5, D5, Eb5, F5 (and at this point the partials look more like the French Horn - you can hit any note in any position; if you have the stamina).

With an F-valve you can add F2, C3, and F3 to 1st position, but there are only 6 positions with the F valve so the length of a portamento is shorter by a semitone. Nobody I know uses an F-valve for notes above F3; it is mostly for downward range extension.

<ATTACHMENT filename="64294E62-8504-48B1-92D0-9CA8A2786C53.jpeg" index="0">[attachment=0]64294E62-8504-48B1-92D0-9CA8A2786C53.jpeg</ATTACHMENT>

You can only get a true glissando between notes that are on the same line. Each line of music represents a partial. This chart is for a horn with no valve. Having a valve or valves gives you more options. Hope that helps.

25 or 6 to 4

Do your homework.

You're unlikely to find a trombone with the F valve in "your typical guitar-based band".

Bruce, the Bartok gliss is in Concerto for Orchestra. Is there another one in Mandarin?

[quote="AtomicClock"]Bruce, the Bartok gliss is in Concerto for Orchestra. Is there another one in Mandarin?[/quote]
Mandarin's got a bunch of 'em (F down to B, then back up again), starting on page 205 of this score

<LINK_TEXT text="https://imslp.eu/files/imglnks/euimg/3/ ... ndarin.pdf">https://imslp.eu/files/imglnks/euimg/3/3a/IMSLP209653-PMLP301137-Bartok_-_The_Miraculous_Mandarin.pdf</LINK_TEXT>

It's an interesting effect; what's actually happening is continuous back and forth glisses between a low B and a second line Bb. It's handed back and forth between the second and third trombone, with the hand-off happening at the bottom of staff F.

Lots of people do wide swoops, but there is much that can be done with about a 1/4 tone. Worst ever example of too wide is the current interpretation of Bolero.

[quote="baileyman"]Lots of people do wide swoops, but there is much that can be done with about a 1/4 tone. Worst ever example of too wide is the current interpretation of Bolero.[/quote]

Something less current?

<YOUTUBE id="ytoht0f5syE">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytoht0f5syE</YOUTUBE>

Well that's refreshing to hear a different interpretation.

That first recording of the Bolero trombone solo has more slosh than anything I've heard in concert these days. :shuffle:

This is the same record but a better transfer (starting at 8:28)...

<YOUTUBE id="8ZcmRYbeqGE" t="508">[media]https://youtu.be/8ZcmRYbeqGE?t=508</YOUTUBE>

Reminds me of how the first recording of Rhapsody in Blue has more "laughing" clarinet than anyone dares do today...

<YOUTUBE id="VGvuUOtHGkk">[media]https://youtu.be/VGvuUOtHGkk</YOUTUBE>

There was probably a lot of crazy stuff people were doing before the phonograph started catching them in the act. A pity that we'll never hear it.

To the OP: trombone players put a lot of practice time into not doing any glissandos. Use them sparingly, it is a rarely-called-for effect. I think a lot of the characteristic trombone sound comes from all the things we do to avoid those smears, things that other instruments don't need to do.

Look at the accompanying ETSP (Equitempered-Tone/Slide-Position) Chart.

Legitimate glissandos (i.e. along a <B>single</B> harmonic) can be performed (ascending or descending) anywhere along the slide-alone harmonics--heavy curves sloping down to the right (with black dots indicating equitempered tones). Also (if an F attachment is available) anywhere along attachment harmonics (open circles), extended to the end of the slide, if needed (about 620 mm). [Higher attachment harmonics can be calculated and filled in as needed.] Notate initial and final notes and their respective slide positions, using "wavy-gliss" line in between.

So-called "against-the-grain" rips--following the light solid lines (chromatic rips) or the dashed lines (whole-tone rips) in either direction are also quite "ear-catching"! Notate initial and final notes and their respective slide positions, using "wavy-gliss" line in between, with "rip" written in parentheses. For whole-tone rips crossing the ninth harmonic, you might want to split those up into two parts, specifying the (outermost) ninth-harmonic note in between.

Also, with an attachment (of any tuning), "thumb-wiggling" rips--from anywhere in the chart to anywhere else--are quite "astounding". [Like "valve-wiggling" rips on a valved brass-wind instrument.] Notate initial and final notes and their respective slide positions with "wavy-gliss" line, with "wiggle-valve" written in parentheses. In the lower register, the resulting "random" (quasi-non-equitempered) arpeggios are quite effective. [Even more so with a minor-third attachment! But that's another story.]

The last "glissando" technique, from anywhere to anywhere else on a trombone, is to "fake" the gliss (by sticking the tongue between the lips along the way), perhaps finishing with a legitimate portion of a gliss--somewhat like a "half-valve" technique on valved brass-wind instruments. [Debussy comes to mind.] Notate this like an "ordinary" gliss and let the performer figure it out.

If you need ETSP Charts for other base or attachment tunings, let me know by private email.

Benny Leonard [<EMAIL email="bpleona@uakron.edu">bpleona@uakron.edu</EMAIL>].

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