This might sound like a silly question to some...but....
- goodebone
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Jun 22, 2023
Has anyone ever tried using a small bore mouthpiece in a large bore instrument and if so what did you use for an adapter so everything fits like it should? Secondly, was it a playable combination that sounded good and a combination worth keeping around or did you consider it a failed experiment? How did it affect the range and response of the instrument. I am considering such a change if someone can verify that it is a workable arrangement.
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
Conventional wisdom says that adapters are a bad idea, so I've never really given it a try. For a while, I did keep a small shank mouthpiece plus adapter in the car, for emergencies. Never had to use it, but I imagine it would have gotten me through a normal rehearsal.
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
Depends on the mouthpiece. Some Bachs, for example the 6.5AL, have the same innards in their small and large shank versions with only the outer taper changing, and in those cases the difference between a large and a small+adapter would be insignificant.
If, however, you're using the adapter to fit a mouthpiece of a type markedly different (i.e. much smaller) from anything envisaged by the instrument's designers, then there's no reason to expect that it'll work well. It's a shortcut to a questionable tone rather than to an improved high range.
If, however, you're using the adapter to fit a mouthpiece of a type markedly different (i.e. much smaller) from anything envisaged by the instrument's designers, then there's no reason to expect that it'll work well. It's a shortcut to a questionable tone rather than to an improved high range.
- goodebone
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Jun 22, 2023
[quote="ithinknot"]Depends on the mouthpiece. Some Bachs, for example the 6.5AL, have the same innards in their small and large shank versions with only the outer taper changing, and in those cases the difference between a large and a small+adapter would be insignificant.
If, however, you're using the adapter to fit a mouthpiece of a type markedly different (i.e. much smaller) from anything envisaged by the instrument's designers, then there's no reason to expect that it'll work well. It's a shortcut to a questionable tone rather than to an improved high range.[/quote]
Ok I guess I will get more specific. I have a yamaha 45c2-12c that works really well for me on the small bore yamaha I have been playing. I recently bought a large bore Yamaha YSL-851 that comes with a 51C4L mouthpiece and it just doesnt work for me. I realize the adapter step may not be the final answer but I don't have a clue where to go to get an equivalent mouthpiece in a large bore - I just have no idea how to make them translate from the different bores and give me essentially the same playability I have on the small bore instrument. I hope I have stated this in a way that makes sense. If not please ask for clarification. I really need a better solution than the stock mouthpiece on the big bore horn.
If, however, you're using the adapter to fit a mouthpiece of a type markedly different (i.e. much smaller) from anything envisaged by the instrument's designers, then there's no reason to expect that it'll work well. It's a shortcut to a questionable tone rather than to an improved high range.[/quote]
Ok I guess I will get more specific. I have a yamaha 45c2-12c that works really well for me on the small bore yamaha I have been playing. I recently bought a large bore Yamaha YSL-851 that comes with a 51C4L mouthpiece and it just doesnt work for me. I realize the adapter step may not be the final answer but I don't have a clue where to go to get an equivalent mouthpiece in a large bore - I just have no idea how to make them translate from the different bores and give me essentially the same playability I have on the small bore instrument. I hope I have stated this in a way that makes sense. If not please ask for clarification. I really need a better solution than the stock mouthpiece on the big bore horn.
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
Sure about that model number? 851 was a small bore.
In any case, the 51 size would be a pretty normal choice for a large bore horn, and all the generic options are going to feel significantly bigger than your 45. If you're new to large bore, the mouthpiece is only one part of an unfamiliar picture...
In any case, the 51 size would be a pretty normal choice for a large bore horn, and all the generic options are going to feel significantly bigger than your 45. If you're new to large bore, the mouthpiece is only one part of an unfamiliar picture...
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
Google says YSL-851 is a small bore instrument. I think you mistyped the number.
A 45c2-12 is a very small mouthpiece (Well, I don't know the 45C2-12c; a Bach 12c is a very small mouthpiece, as is the Yamaha 45c2). It is a mismatch with a .547 trombone, which I presume your large shank instrument is. It can take months or years to develop the air and sound concept for a large instrument like that. If you're going to commit to that, you might as well do so on the 51c4. But if you need to stick with the 45c2, then the large bore horn isn't for you.
In any case, something like this is what we're discussing. I linked to a Yamaha version because you like that brand, but other manufacturers will work just as well; just make sure you pick the right instruments. There are many types of brass adapters.
https://www.dillonmusic.com/yamaha-mouthpiece-adapter/
A 45c2-12 is a very small mouthpiece (Well, I don't know the 45C2-12c; a Bach 12c is a very small mouthpiece, as is the Yamaha 45c2). It is a mismatch with a .547 trombone, which I presume your large shank instrument is. It can take months or years to develop the air and sound concept for a large instrument like that. If you're going to commit to that, you might as well do so on the 51c4. But if you need to stick with the 45c2, then the large bore horn isn't for you.
In any case, something like this is what we're discussing. I linked to a Yamaha version because you like that brand, but other manufacturers will work just as well; just make sure you pick the right instruments. There are many types of brass adapters.
https://www.dillonmusic.com/yamaha-mouthpiece-adapter/
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
An adaptor can be OK if you're willing to accept the limitations. It's never going to sound or play like a large bore horn, so why use a large bore horn?
I have known players who really couldn't play larger mouthpieces. I make stuff that would work with small rims sizes - maybe my ST series 95 or 96 rim on a C+ or D cup and D8 shank, or D+ with D+8 could be a good choice. That's also not totally going to sound much like a large bore horn, but I think it would play better than a small mouthpiece with an adaptor.
I have known players who really couldn't play larger mouthpieces. I make stuff that would work with small rims sizes - maybe my ST series 95 or 96 rim on a C+ or D cup and D8 shank, or D+ with D+8 could be a good choice. That's also not totally going to sound much like a large bore horn, but I think it would play better than a small mouthpiece with an adaptor.
- cb56
- Posts: 155
- Joined: Sep 17, 2023
Bill Pearse out of Chicago played beautifully on a Bach 12 on a large bore olds. But I imaging he was the exception to the rule.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Fred Wesley plays a small mouthpiece on a large bore horn.
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
Apparently this approach is quite common in the UHOP world, with cushion rim Rudy Mucks especially popular... you can see how that might make sense on a number of fronts.
[quote="cb56"]Bill Pearse out of Chicago played beautifully on a Bach 12 on a large bore olds.[/quote]
Yup... let's take a listen...
<YOUTUBE id="KZd9ghZV1LU">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZd9ghZV1LU</YOUTUBE>
Sounds fabulous, but he's in the studio, probably playing into a big ol' RCA ribbon with the treble rolled off at the board (and with some later format transfers blunting things further).
And in a less artistically engineered environment...
<YOUTUBE id="Fqlgtx6KI6E">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fqlgtx6KI6E</YOUTUBE>
This isn't a criticism of the playing - he was a real stylist - but the tone is, well, quite a lot like how you might imagine a Bach 12 stuck in a large bore Olds would sound...
The point being, the results are quite far from what's classically expected from a large bore horn. If that's the intention, fine.
[quote="cb56"]Bill Pearse out of Chicago played beautifully on a Bach 12 on a large bore olds.[/quote]
Yup... let's take a listen...
<YOUTUBE id="KZd9ghZV1LU">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZd9ghZV1LU</YOUTUBE>
Sounds fabulous, but he's in the studio, probably playing into a big ol' RCA ribbon with the treble rolled off at the board (and with some later format transfers blunting things further).
And in a less artistically engineered environment...
<YOUTUBE id="Fqlgtx6KI6E">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fqlgtx6KI6E</YOUTUBE>
This isn't a criticism of the playing - he was a real stylist - but the tone is, well, quite a lot like how you might imagine a Bach 12 stuck in a large bore Olds would sound...
The point being, the results are quite far from what's classically expected from a large bore horn. If that's the intention, fine.
- cb56
- Posts: 155
- Joined: Sep 17, 2023
I guess the question would be which recording set up more accurately reproduces accurately real world sound more acurately.
Doug, I knew Fred played a big horn but didn't know about the small mouthpiece.
Doug, I knew Fred played a big horn but didn't know about the small mouthpiece.
- goodebone
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Jun 22, 2023
[quote="AtomicClock"]Google says YSL-851 is a small bore instrument. I think you mistyped the number.
A 45c2-12 is a very small mouthpiece (Well, I don't know the 45C2-12c; a Bach 12c is a very small mouthpiece, as is the Yamaha 45c2). It is a mismatch with a .547 trombone, which I presume your large shank instrument is. It can take months or years to develop the air and sound concept for a large instrument like that. If you're going to commit to that, you might as well do so on the 51c4. But if you need to stick with the 45c2, then the large bore horn isn't for you.
In any case, something like this is what we're discussing. I linked to a Yamaha version because you like that brand, but other manufacturers will work just as well; just make sure you pick the right instruments. There are many types of brass adapters.
https://www.dillonmusic.com/yamaha-mouthpiece-adapter/[/quote]
If you go to the Yamaha website and look up ysl-851 you will see it listed as a large bore straight tenor trombone, regardless of what google has to say about it...sorry. The mouthpiece is indeed a large shank - when I attempt to use the small shank 45c2 it falls in never touching the sides till it bottoms out on the flutes at the bottom of the shank. So its way undersized to be sure.
Moving up to this instrument might be an experiment only...and one that I end up reversing path on, but I had to try a large bore instrument to know what it was like and see if it was possible to grow into it. I may have bitten off more than I can chew and if so, it will not be the first time and likely not the last. But I want to give it a fair chance.
A 45c2-12 is a very small mouthpiece (Well, I don't know the 45C2-12c; a Bach 12c is a very small mouthpiece, as is the Yamaha 45c2). It is a mismatch with a .547 trombone, which I presume your large shank instrument is. It can take months or years to develop the air and sound concept for a large instrument like that. If you're going to commit to that, you might as well do so on the 51c4. But if you need to stick with the 45c2, then the large bore horn isn't for you.
In any case, something like this is what we're discussing. I linked to a Yamaha version because you like that brand, but other manufacturers will work just as well; just make sure you pick the right instruments. There are many types of brass adapters.
https://www.dillonmusic.com/yamaha-mouthpiece-adapter/[/quote]
If you go to the Yamaha website and look up ysl-851 you will see it listed as a large bore straight tenor trombone, regardless of what google has to say about it...sorry. The mouthpiece is indeed a large shank - when I attempt to use the small shank 45c2 it falls in never touching the sides till it bottoms out on the flutes at the bottom of the shank. So its way undersized to be sure.
Moving up to this instrument might be an experiment only...and one that I end up reversing path on, but I had to try a large bore instrument to know what it was like and see if it was possible to grow into it. I may have bitten off more than I can chew and if so, it will not be the first time and likely not the last. But I want to give it a fair chance.
- goodebone
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Jun 22, 2023
[quote="ithinknot"]Sure about that model number? 851 was a small bore.
In any case, the 51 size would be a pretty normal choice for a large bore horn, and all the generic options are going to feel significantly bigger than your 45. If you're new to large bore, the mouthpiece is only one part of an unfamiliar picture...[/quote]
I read the number wrong its an 881 not 851- or I read it right and typed it wrong...I'm going to blame the covid I have been fighting for the last two weeks for the brain farts.
In any case, the 51 size would be a pretty normal choice for a large bore horn, and all the generic options are going to feel significantly bigger than your 45. If you're new to large bore, the mouthpiece is only one part of an unfamiliar picture...[/quote]
I read the number wrong its an 881 not 851- or I read it right and typed it wrong...I'm going to blame the covid I have been fighting for the last two weeks for the brain farts.
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
Just play on a Vincent Bach Large Shank 6 1/2AL. The throat and backbore are identical to the small shank version, which is why the metal in the shank is so thick. Other makers such as Kanstul made their large shank 6 1/2 AL with a different back bore to match the larger bore / leadpipe.
IMHO, it's not a big difference, but having a mouthpiece with a proper backbore / shank for the bore is going to be better than one using an adapter, which definitely leaves a pretty big "step" at the end of the mouthpiece.
IMHO, it's not a big difference, but having a mouthpiece with a proper backbore / shank for the bore is going to be better than one using an adapter, which definitely leaves a pretty big "step" at the end of the mouthpiece.
- goodebone
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Jun 22, 2023
[quote="goodebone"]<QUOTE author="AtomicClock" post_id="224904" time="1699748639" user_id="17161">
Google says YSL-851 is a small bore instrument. I think you mistyped the number.
A 45c2-12 is a very small mouthpiece (Well, I don't know the 45C2-12c; a Bach 12c is a very small mouthpiece, as is the Yamaha 45c2). It is a mismatch with a .547 trombone, which I presume your large shank instrument is. It can take months or years to develop the air and sound concept for a large instrument like that. If you're going to commit to that, you might as well do so on the 51c4. But if you need to stick with the 45c2, then the large bore horn isn't for you.
In any case, something like this is what we're discussing. I linked to a Yamaha version because you like that brand, but other manufacturers will work just as well; just make sure you pick the right instruments. There are many types of brass adapters.
https://www.dillonmusic.com/yamaha-mouthpiece-adapter/[/quote]
If you go to the Yamaha website and look up ysl-851 you will see it listed as a large bore straight tenor trombone, regardless of what google has to say about it...sorry. The mouthpiece is indeed a large shank - when I attempt to use the small shank 45c2 it falls in never touching the sides till it bottoms out on the flutes at the bottom of the shank. So its way undersized to be sure.
Moving up to this instrument might be an experiment only...and one that I end up reversing path on, but I had to try a large bore instrument to know what it was like and see if it was possible to grow into it. I may have bitten off more than I can chew and if so, it will not be the first time and likely not the last. But I want to give it a fair chance.
</QUOTE>
i did realize my mistake on the model number...I'm blaming the covid I have been fighting for two weeks. its an 881 not what I posted by mistake...nevertheless the mouthpiece numbers are accurate. I apologize for misleading with inaccurate information. Covid has kicked my butt.
Google says YSL-851 is a small bore instrument. I think you mistyped the number.
A 45c2-12 is a very small mouthpiece (Well, I don't know the 45C2-12c; a Bach 12c is a very small mouthpiece, as is the Yamaha 45c2). It is a mismatch with a .547 trombone, which I presume your large shank instrument is. It can take months or years to develop the air and sound concept for a large instrument like that. If you're going to commit to that, you might as well do so on the 51c4. But if you need to stick with the 45c2, then the large bore horn isn't for you.
In any case, something like this is what we're discussing. I linked to a Yamaha version because you like that brand, but other manufacturers will work just as well; just make sure you pick the right instruments. There are many types of brass adapters.
https://www.dillonmusic.com/yamaha-mouthpiece-adapter/[/quote]
If you go to the Yamaha website and look up ysl-851 you will see it listed as a large bore straight tenor trombone, regardless of what google has to say about it...sorry. The mouthpiece is indeed a large shank - when I attempt to use the small shank 45c2 it falls in never touching the sides till it bottoms out on the flutes at the bottom of the shank. So its way undersized to be sure.
Moving up to this instrument might be an experiment only...and one that I end up reversing path on, but I had to try a large bore instrument to know what it was like and see if it was possible to grow into it. I may have bitten off more than I can chew and if so, it will not be the first time and likely not the last. But I want to give it a fair chance.
</QUOTE>
i did realize my mistake on the model number...I'm blaming the covid I have been fighting for two weeks. its an 881 not what I posted by mistake...nevertheless the mouthpiece numbers are accurate. I apologize for misleading with inaccurate information. Covid has kicked my butt.
- goodebone
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Jun 22, 2023
[quote="goodebone"]<QUOTE author="AtomicClock" post_id="224904" time="1699748639" user_id="17161">
Google says YSL-851 is a small bore instrument. I think you mistyped the number.
A 45c2-12 is a very small mouthpiece (Well, I don't know the 45C2-12c; a Bach 12c is a very small mouthpiece, as is the Yamaha 45c2). It is a mismatch with a .547 trombone, which I presume your large shank instrument is. It can take months or years to develop the air and sound concept for a large instrument like that. If you're going to commit to that, you might as well do so on the 51c4. But if you need to stick with the 45c2, then the large bore horn isn't for you.
In any case, something like this is what we're discussing. I linked to a Yamaha version because you like that brand, but other manufacturers will work just as well; just make sure you pick the right instruments. There are many types of brass adapters.
https://www.dillonmusic.com/yamaha-mouthpiece-adapter/[/quote]
If you go to the Yamaha website and look up ysl-851 you will see it listed as a large bore straight tenor trombone, regardless of what google has to say about it...sorry. The mouthpiece is indeed a large shank - when I attempt to use the small shank 45c2 it falls in never touching the sides till it bottoms out on the flutes at the bottom of the shank. So its way undersized to be sure.
Moving up to this instrument might be an experiment only...and one that I end up reversing path on, but I had to try a large bore instrument to know what it was like and see if it was possible to grow into it. I may have bitten off more than I can chew and if so, it will not be the first time and likely not the last. But I want to give it a fair chance.
</QUOTE>
I apologize for my mistake...I have an 881 not the 851
Google says YSL-851 is a small bore instrument. I think you mistyped the number.
A 45c2-12 is a very small mouthpiece (Well, I don't know the 45C2-12c; a Bach 12c is a very small mouthpiece, as is the Yamaha 45c2). It is a mismatch with a .547 trombone, which I presume your large shank instrument is. It can take months or years to develop the air and sound concept for a large instrument like that. If you're going to commit to that, you might as well do so on the 51c4. But if you need to stick with the 45c2, then the large bore horn isn't for you.
In any case, something like this is what we're discussing. I linked to a Yamaha version because you like that brand, but other manufacturers will work just as well; just make sure you pick the right instruments. There are many types of brass adapters.
https://www.dillonmusic.com/yamaha-mouthpiece-adapter/[/quote]
If you go to the Yamaha website and look up ysl-851 you will see it listed as a large bore straight tenor trombone, regardless of what google has to say about it...sorry. The mouthpiece is indeed a large shank - when I attempt to use the small shank 45c2 it falls in never touching the sides till it bottoms out on the flutes at the bottom of the shank. So its way undersized to be sure.
Moving up to this instrument might be an experiment only...and one that I end up reversing path on, but I had to try a large bore instrument to know what it was like and see if it was possible to grow into it. I may have bitten off more than I can chew and if so, it will not be the first time and likely not the last. But I want to give it a fair chance.
</QUOTE>
I apologize for my mistake...I have an 881 not the 851
- goodebone
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Jun 22, 2023
[quote="ithinknot"]Apparently this approach is quite common in the UHOP world, with cushion rim Rudy Mucks especially popular... you can see how that might make sense on a number of fronts.
<QUOTE author="cb56" post_id="224949" time="1699810447" user_id="17039">
Bill Pearse out of Chicago played beautifully on a Bach 12 on a large bore olds.[/quote]
Yup... let's take a listen...
<YOUTUBE id="KZd9ghZV1LU">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZd9ghZV1LU</YOUTUBE>
Sounds fabulous, but he's in the studio, probably playing into a big ol' RCA ribbon with the treble rolled off at the board (and with some later format transfers blunting things further).
And in a less artistically engineered environment...
<YOUTUBE id="Fqlgtx6KI6E">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fqlgtx6KI6E</YOUTUBE>
This isn't a criticism of the playing - he was a real stylist - but the tone is, well, quite a lot like how you might imagine a Bach 12 stuck in a large bore Olds would sound...
The point being, the results are quite far from what's classically expected from a large bore horn. If that's the intention, fine.
</QUOTE>
this guy sounds wonderful...if I ever sounded that good i would be deliriously happy. Never mind if its an unconventional sound for a large bore horn.
<QUOTE author="cb56" post_id="224949" time="1699810447" user_id="17039">
Bill Pearse out of Chicago played beautifully on a Bach 12 on a large bore olds.[/quote]
Yup... let's take a listen...
<YOUTUBE id="KZd9ghZV1LU">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZd9ghZV1LU</YOUTUBE>
Sounds fabulous, but he's in the studio, probably playing into a big ol' RCA ribbon with the treble rolled off at the board (and with some later format transfers blunting things further).
And in a less artistically engineered environment...
<YOUTUBE id="Fqlgtx6KI6E">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fqlgtx6KI6E</YOUTUBE>
This isn't a criticism of the playing - he was a real stylist - but the tone is, well, quite a lot like how you might imagine a Bach 12 stuck in a large bore Olds would sound...
The point being, the results are quite far from what's classically expected from a large bore horn. If that's the intention, fine.
</QUOTE>
this guy sounds wonderful...if I ever sounded that good i would be deliriously happy. Never mind if its an unconventional sound for a large bore horn.
- heldenbone
- Posts: 274
- Joined: Aug 21, 2018
Schilke makes their 46 in large shank. Why I have one is a story not worthy of derailing an already sleeping thread. It will get you close to the desired rim size, but the bottom half is more appropriate to a big tenor, so it will still feel like a bit of an air hog.
- OneTon
- Posts: 757
- Joined: Nov 02, 2021
It is not a silly question. Schilke makes a 44E4 with that diameter and Mouthpiece Express has one in stock. Marcinkiewicz makes large shank mouthpiece in that range. They may make a large shank version of a Yamaha 45C2-12C but it will cost $300 or more and you can’t send it back. Back in the dark ages Chrisafaldi of the Chicago Symphony made all his university students play Schilke 47 mouthpieces, which Schilke makes in large shank, until the student could play high E. They are in stock at Mouthpiece Express. Evidently someone played the 47 professionally as
schilke describes it as a professional or student mouthpiece. Mouthpiece Express has some pretty good dimensional mouthpiece comparison charts. Take them with a little grain of salt due to vagaries of measurement locations. Doug Elliott can get you close as well. Adapters are not recommended for daily use and could hold you back.
The Schilke 47 may take a while to get used to. You can get good results with it.
schilke describes it as a professional or student mouthpiece. Mouthpiece Express has some pretty good dimensional mouthpiece comparison charts. Take them with a little grain of salt due to vagaries of measurement locations. Doug Elliott can get you close as well. Adapters are not recommended for daily use and could hold you back.
The Schilke 47 may take a while to get used to. You can get good results with it.