Symington/Holton 181 Fit

phmoto · 2023-11-21 9:02 a.m.

Hi All,

Thank you for approving my access to TC.

Newbie 2nd post here.

Years ago I played a Holton TR181/Mount Vernon 1 1/2g.

After a very long break I now have a mid 90's 181 (with a late 70's Bach 50b slide) and have settled on a Symington 1 1/2g, a really nice mouthpiece and the closest one I have found to my old MV.

The only issue is the Symington seems to sit further out than any comparable mouthpiece I've tried.

Has anyone found this a problem and if so, is there a solution?

spencercarran · by **spencercarran** » 2023-11-21 12:09 p.m.

My Symington mouthpiece has a normal length/taper shank, and by all accounts their manufacturing is consistent enough. The issue is more likely with your slide's mouthpiece receiver - maybe get the leadpipe checked out.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2023-11-21 12:38 p.m.

Holton receivers are usually slightly larger than standard, not smaller. Is it possible your Symington has a Conn shank?

If you like the way it plays... use it.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2023-11-21 1:43 p.m.

Symington shanks changed at one point. I know because I’ve seen 2 that were the exact same piece made at 2 different times. They each had different insertion depths in the same instrument. <EMOJI seq="1f937-1f3fb-2642" tseq="1f937-1f3fb-200d-2642-fe0f">🤷🏻‍♂️</EMOJI>

hornbuilder · by **hornbuilder** » 2023-11-21 3:57 p.m.

How much of the shank is inside the receiver?

Does it play well? If yes, then stop over thinking.

phmoto · by **phmoto** » 2023-11-22 2:53 a.m.

[quote="spencercarran"]My Symington mouthpiece has a normal length/taper shank, and by all accounts their manufacturing is consistent enough. The issue is more likely with your slide's mouthpiece receiver - maybe get the leadpipe checked out.[/quote]

Thanks for your reply.

I'm not sure what "normal" is atm, I didn't realise there were different tapers till very recently.

Do you know where I might find the relevant specs ?

I have the original Holton slide and the mouthpiece also sits further out in that.

phmoto · by **phmoto** » 2023-11-22 3:01 a.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]Holton receivers are usually slightly larger than standard, not smaller. Is it possible your Symington has a Conn shank?

If you like the way it plays... use it.[/quote]

Thanks for your reply.

I really like the way it plays :D

I don't know if it has a Conn shank, I'll look into it.

phmoto · 2023-11-22 3:03 a.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]Symington shanks changed at one point. I know because I’ve seen 2 that were the exact same piece made at 2 different times. They each had different insertion depths in the same instrument. <EMOJI seq="1f937-1f3fb-2642" tseq="1f937-1f3fb-200d-2642-fe0f">🤷🏻‍♂️</EMOJI>[/quote]

Thanks for your reply, that's something to investigate :good:

phmoto · by **phmoto** » 2023-11-22 3:11 a.m.

[quote="hornbuilder"]How much of the shank is inside the receiver?

Does it play well? If yes, then stop over thinking.[/quote]

Hi, thanks for your reply.

It plays great! (The player, not so).

The mouthpiece is around 8mm further out than the standard VB 1 1/2g.

If this is "normal" then great, if however there is a different shank I'm happy to buy that version.

I'm so out of touch with all the developments in the Bass Trom world so any advice gratefully received.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2023-11-22 7:51 a.m.

8mm???

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2023-11-22 8:53 a.m.

If it is a Conn taper you should be able to see the difference compared to a standard shank - it's larger, and straighter, with less amount of taper. So in a standard receiver it would slightly wobble in addition to going in less far. The original Holton is not a "standard receiver" so compare it in a different one.

In terms of diameter, a standard shank is close to 12.6mm at the end. A Conn shank is close to 13mm at the end.

And in either case, the correct insertion distance in a matching receiver is close to 25.4mm or slightly more. It sounds to me like you have a Conn shank mouthpiece, trying to put it in a standard receiver. Holton receivers are typically slightly larger than a standard, but not quite like a Conn receiver.

I believe Bill Symington is a member here... If he sees this maybe he can say if he made any with a Conn shank, and if there would be any markings on it to identify that.

phmoto · by **phmoto** » 2023-11-22 9:50 a.m.

Thank you for all that info Doug, I'll take a closer look in the next practice session.

I'm using an adapted Bach slide so will check with the Tech that did the work.

As spencercarran mentioned, the problem could be the receiver I suppose.

blast · by **blast** » 2023-11-22 12:08 p.m.

The Symington 1.5 is a copy of one of my Mt Vernon 1 1/2G mouthpieces. I forgot to tell Bill that that particular mouthpiece had the Conn type shank. He changed them to Morse after the first few were made. I might be wrong but I think the Conn taper is still a special order option.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2023-11-22 1:26 p.m.

So it seems likely this is an early one with the Conn taper.

phmoto · by **phmoto** » 2023-11-23 10:11 a.m.

[quote="blast"]The Symington 1.5 is a copy of one of my Mt Vernon 1 1/2G mouthpieces. I forgot to tell Bill that that particular mouthpiece had the Conn type shank. He changed them to Morse after the first few were made. I might be wrong but I think the Conn taper is still a special order option.[/quote]

Hi Chris, I bought mine 2nd hand from Ebay (If I remember correctly) so it might be an early/special one.

phmoto · by **phmoto** » 2023-11-23 10:13 a.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]So it seems likely this is an early one with the Conn taper.[/quote]

Quite possibly.

Time to go shopping I think.

phmoto · by **phmoto** » 2023-11-23 10:15 a.m.

Thank you all for your comments and suggestions - I now have a plan.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2023-11-27 9:22 a.m.

[quote="phmoto"]<QUOTE author="hornbuilder" post_id="225823" time="1700600277" user_id="3205">
How much of the shank is inside the receiver?

Does it play well? If yes, then stop over thinking.[/quote]

Hi, thanks for your reply.

It plays great! (The player, not so).

The mouthpiece is around 8mm further out than the standard VB 1 1/2g.

If this is "normal" then great, if however there is a different shank I'm happy to buy that version.

I'm so out of touch with all the developments in the Bass Trom world so any advice gratefully received.
</QUOTE>
Here's the point that a few have made. IF you like it and it plays well, for you, then don't worry about the insertion depth. We are all curious and have definitely spent more on mouthpieces than the GNP of some small countries. Mt Vernon Bach pieces are also all COMPLETELY DIFFERENT in every aspect. Use the piece that has the most comfy rim and go from there. My 2 cents.

islander · by **islander** » 2023-11-27 1:43 p.m.

Hello all,

Chris is right - I did make a few Conn shank mouthpieces to start with, but switched to Morse tapers fairly quickly. Nonetheless, my Morse mouthpieces do protrude further than others from the receiver. There was a period of reflection on my part about that, but as no-one reported any ill-effects from that feature, I let it slide.

I have been asked quite frequently to make Conn shanks but life / day job has been interfering unacceptably with mouthpiece endeavours for a couple of years. It's on the list!

Bill

phmoto · by **phmoto** » 2023-12-01 9:16 a.m.

[quote="islander"]Hello all,

Chris is right - I did make a few Conn shank mouthpieces to start with, but switched to Morse tapers fairly quickly. Nonetheless, my Morse mouthpieces do protrude further than others from the receiver. There was a period of reflection on my part about that, but as no-one reported any ill-effects from that feature, I let it slide.

I have been asked quite frequently to make Conn shanks but life / day job has been interfering unacceptably with mouthpiece endeavours for a couple of years. It's on the list!

Bill[/quote]

Hi Bill, Thank you for your reply.

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Symington/Holton 181 Fit